Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Sabre on July 29, 2005, 06:58:45 PM
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All, the Italy set up is loaded. I may add a couple of planes yet, such as the Hurri-IIC and the C202/205 to the Allies. But will go with my original set up for the moment. Enjoy!:)
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See Rule #4
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LOL, methinks someone got caught low and slow by a Hurricane, maybe more than once. :)
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Sabre - great setup sir.:aok I played it a bit last night and had some good fun.
Cheers
asw
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Thanks, guys. Yeah, the Hurri-IIC seems a bit uber to me, too. Ah, well, we'll see how the planeset shakes out. So far, it seems pretty balanced. Thanks again, to whomever created this map (can't remember who built it). It's cool!:aok
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It was a CM Terrain Team effort - Dux, Gatso and I all had a hand in it.
Glad you like the terrain :).
Cheers,
asw
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actually no a hurri is easy to defeat. the cannon are the real culprit. it's the combination of a high pony or similar and a low hurri or four usually flown right over their own ack that tends to be a bit annoying to me. I'm sure everyone else loves that though.
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I think the hurri2 is okay, balance wise. I don't think it's using steriods per se, but I think with the massive engine change from AH to AH2, the emphasis has been changed from turning to speed, and all things react differently (with the same parameters). So I think in AH2 it packs more punch than it did in reality because AH2 -- while currently the best -- still doesn't have it all perfectly proportioned, so to speak.
Storch: Yes, they can be very annoying if you get caught in their guns, but it's usually easy enough to avoid the guns and get a kill.
The only problem is if they somehow manuver onto your 6 -- then you really can't turn into them, or climb/loop over them, so you have to dive/outrun them. It's when you're busy with the 5 other BNZ planes and the 1 hurri2 cherry picks ya, that's when people start griping :P
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Frankly, to me the two most suspicious flight models in AH are the Hurricane and Bf110. This is mainly based on BoB setups, but there is a reason the Spitfire and Bf109 were considered the best fighters of that battle. In AH it is rather clearly the other way around. The Hurri is much more manuverable than the Spitfire (which is certainly not how Bob Stanford Tuck described them) and the Bf110 seems just about as manuverable as the Bf109 while carring vastly more firepower. Remember, the Bf110s weren't locked to the bombers in close escort initially and the RAF fighters still chewed the heck out of them when they were in the same mission profiles as the Bf109s.
It seems to me that the Bf110 and Hurri models are a wee bit optimistic.
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I agree about the 110.
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Originally posted by detch01
It was a CM Terrain Team effort - Dux, Gatso and I all had a hand in it.
Glad you like the terrain :).
It's beautiful, asw, and, unlike the old Italy, I get great frame rates in this one.
Thanks so much.
- oldman
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Originally posted by storch
actually no a hurri is easy to defeat.
Wouldn't worry about it. All the allies are flying is Spit 9s.
- oldman
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Thx OM - glad you like it :)
Cheers,
asw
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yall might wanna rename it to SPitaly '43
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lol!
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Originally posted by TrueKill
yall might wanna rename it to SPitaly '43
A little A-5/F-4 teamwork should take care of the Spit 9ers. Unlike the V the 9 does not impress me at all.
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I found the 109F-4 more than capable of handling the SpitIX, so long as you arent caught with yer pants down. But thats true of just about anything. The harder thing to overcome was the 2nd and 3rd ones...............yanno, the ones behind me? :)
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I have a lot more respect for the spit9 than I do the spit5. It's less of a UFO, for sure, but it has better rate of climb, better top speed (by about 15mph with wep?) and much better E-fighting capabilities, because of the more powerful engine. One gave me a real hard run of it in my Ki84 a while back, both of us keeping pace with each other, spiraling upwards into the sky.
The spitV has only 1 realistically modeled point: It's speed. It's slow as hell and 90% of the planeset outruns it (including the 190a5 heh heh heh). The spit9 has more speed so it's more of a threat -- the difference between a 190a5 being 30mph faster and being 15mph faster becomes evident when you can't leave the guy behind you eating your dust anymore lol!
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Originally posted by Krusty
I have a lot more respect for the spit9 than I do the spit5. It's less of a UFO, for sure, but it has better rate of climb, better top speed (by about 15mph with wep?)B]
Not really the spit5 is about 2-3 mhp faster then the 9 on the deck. For the last dweeb week with the JBz we uped spit9s and i got jsuted by a spit5 knowing I wants ganna outturn it I tryed runing but when it hit WEP it cought me and killed me easly.
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I grew up on RCAF fighter stations and got to know a fair number of fighter jocks and too a man they all said the same thing (in one fashion or another): "there are victims in fighters and killers in fighters". That boils down to attitude - those who fly and try not to get shot and those who fly with the idea of doing the shooting. It seems to me there is more than a little of this in the spitfire debate. People see a spit and they get timid when they should be getting aggressive.
Fly the spits for awhile and learn what they can and cannot do. Then pick a plane, any plane and learn how to force an overshoot and spend some time getting good at rolling-scissors and high yo-yo's. The MkV won't seem near as fearsome then.
Depending on the technology you've got strapped to your bellybutton to win the fight for you is utter dweebary.
asw
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Originally posted by Krusty
I have a lot more respect for the spit9 than I do the spit5. It's less of a UFO, for sure, but it has better rate of climb, better top speed (by about 15mph with wep?) and much better E-fighting capabilities, because of the more powerful engine. One gave me a real hard run of it in my Ki84 a while back, both of us keeping pace with each other, spiraling upwards into the sky.
Ki-84 vs Spit9 is a fun fight.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I have a lot more respect for the spit9 than I do the spit5. It's less of a UFO, for sure, but it has better rate of climb, better top speed (by about 15mph with wep?) and much better E-fighting capabilities, because of the more powerful engine.
Negative. The 16+ boost Spit V is only 3-4 MPH slower than the IX with WEP, and it outclimbs both the 109F and the Spit IX at normal AH fight alts.
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Originally posted by detch01
I grew up on RCAF fighter stations and got to know a fair number of fighter jocks and too a man they all said the same thing (in one fashion or another): "there are victims in fighters and killers in fighters". That boils down to attitude - those who fly and try not to get shot and those who fly with the idea of doing the shooting. It seems to me there is more than a little of this in the spitfire debate. People see a spit and they get timid when they should be getting aggressive.
Fly the spits for awhile and learn what they can and cannot do. Then pick a plane, any plane and learn how to force an overshoot and spend some time getting good at rolling-scissors and high yo-yo's. The MkV won't seem near as fearsome then.
Depending on the technology you've got strapped to your bellybutton to win the fight for you is utter dweebary.
asw
I agree with you in principal here. we all know that I could be accused of many things but timidity would not be one of them. I'm bull shark aggressive, here and in RL as well. it's in my nature. age has mellowed it some but it's still there. I have only been playing this game for two years and some months so I still consider myself a noob. I hate offering advice on the bbs on how to play because I don't feel qualified to do so. having typed the former, here goes. the only solution I find to dealing with a spitV 1 v 1 is to bore and snore him into making a single mistake and then being quick enough, with the correct aim to turn a sliver into a win. forcing the overshoot is difficult because the spitV slows down to schoolzone speeds rapidly and yet remains perfectly in control, after which all the opponent has to do is hammer down, hit wep, slightly drop the nose and it accellerates to 200 mph very quickly. high yo-yos will work if the guy is busy watching porn, drinking a beer and eating a sandwich as well as being on his two week trial account otherwise the fight usually ends in a draw for me. the best way to deal with the spitV is to never, ever allow him gain an alt advantage and hope that a squaddie is nearby, sees your predicament, comes in and hose him down. I caught one just like that yesterday, hanging from his prop happily hammering away at N7 with his two other buddies in tow. 200m out trigger down, wingroot strikes wing folds and a thirty second drop to the cool mediterranian to commune with the calamari. the spitV should be re-thought by HTC. in the interim we will just gang the crap out them everytime we see one. The IX is fun to fight against. in the 205/109F/G it comes down to knowing your advantages/disadvantages and playing to your strengths. individual skill will probably determine the outcome which is probably how it should be in the game. we probably don't need to go into the rediculous hizooka rant at this time but we may want to revisit that bravo sierra later in the thread.
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nm - the fact is known already :)
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Heya's Storch,
The last time I went head to head against a MkV in a MkIX on the deck co-E, it was a very tough fight and it was fought in the vertical for the most part. I can't remember who the driver of the MkV was although he was certainly no noob, but I managed to knock him down. What made the win possible was the slight performance advantages of the MkIX, good timing and a couple of good decisions at the right times once we got into scissoring.
Between the two spits the MkIX is #1 but I'll grant you that the MkV is a very close second, but I don't see it (the MkV) as being more dangerous or more capable than the MkIX in any way except horizontal turns.
"Bore n Snore", "Boom n Zoom", whatever. Those labels tend to be used in this game for any type of fighting outside of a knife-fight in a phone booth. The definitions of those terms are so loose they are the next best thing to useless in any meaningful discussion. It would be much easier to discuss this if you'd just say what you mean rather than using labels others have to guess the exact meaning of.
...the best way to deal with the spitV is to never, ever allow him gain an alt advantage and hope that a squaddie is nearby, sees your predicament, comes in and hose him down.
It seems to me here that you're saying that if the Spit has alt on you, you've already lost the fight. One thing you're forgetting is that in this game you're playing against people not uberAI npc aircraft. It's either that or you lack the necessary faith in your own abilities to do something about reversing the situation.
high yo-yos will work if the guy is busy watching porn, drinking a beer and eating a sandwich as well as being on his two week trial account otherwise the fight usually ends in a draw for me
Point, game and match - thx for showing up :D . Seriously though, once you're down to this type of fight aircraft performance is secondary to seeing the situation for what it is and reacting accordingly. Most people get sucked into low-E high-angle fights when they take on the MkV. That's a mistake and it makes the MkV's "advantages" seem more than they are.
A few points here:
- Anyone can force an overshoot by slowing down rapidly - chop the throttle , hold your nose level (or pull it up if you want to show your oppo a nice big juicy easy to hit target) and cross the controls (aileron and rudder). And once you've done that and your oppo has flown on by you've just made him a gift of an unearned E advantage. The trick is to force the overshoot and keep your E - see Ghosth, TC or WideWing in the TA, they can all teach just about anyone in the game a thing or two.
- If you get nailed by anything diving down on you from great height at a great rate of knots you just haven't been paying attention. It happens to all of us.
- Fighting F4 v SpitV puts the LW iron in no worse shape than taking on a D11 jug or PJ in an A-5 and I don't hear the same whiney noises about the D11v109/190 setups in the CT that you hear constantly about setups with the Spit MkV.
- there are two "urban myths" rampant in AH (besides the uberspit one): the hizooka myth and the "conspiracy against the LW" myth. Hispanos are great guns but for long distance sniping I'd rather have 6x50cal. The 50cal has better ballistics (flatter trajectory and are therefore easier to aim) and hits hard enough out to 800yds or so to knock 'em down. For close in work the hispanos have an edge over axis or ussr cannons but they are hardly a garauntee of a kill every time you pull the trigger. I do fine with the cannons in the 109 series out to ~450yds, but I prefer to get within 300 before pulling the trigger. Funny thing, I'm exactly the same way with hispanos, I just don't compensate as much for ballistic drop.
The anti-LW conspiracy is just fantasy. From everything I've read on the period the 109 series was harder to fly well than most of the allied stuff but those that knew what they were doing with them seemed to do fairly well. The same holds true in AH - Kudo's to HTC and the AH aircraft performance modelling.
-Last point: Being aggressive when you've got all the advantages is a given. Being aggressive when you've got the cards stacked against you is the only way to reverse a bad situation. There are a bunch of players in both the CT and the MA that turn timid as soon as they think they're on the receiving end, which btw is exactly the wrong thing to do most times.
Anyway, I haven't got the time or the inclination to shop for a publishing deal so I'll end this here.
Cheers,
asw
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Spit9 is faster thans Spit5 on the deck. Spit5 is 290/309 (around that) for wep/nowep. Spit9 is about 315-320 with wep. The stupid thing is the spit5 gets to its top speed better, and if you are at top speed in a perfectly clean and trim configuration and just shut the engine off, it takes 3x as long for the spit5 to slow down as it does the spit9 (no control inputs, just full speed, 10 feet from the water, turn eng off, and wait).
Detch: The problem is that for the most part when you see a spit5 that has alt on you, there is nothing you can do that would allow you any chance to engage it, as it can (with its alt) rope you, zoom past you, reverse/saddle up on you all instantly and you don't have any recourse against these options (although a good dweeb-fashioned HO isn't out of the picture either). Frankly, being agressive is one thing. Being suicidal is another. Spit5 has the alt over you in a 109F. There is not one single thing you can do at ALL that will give you an advantage, and 90% of everything you can do will give the spit5 that much more of an easy target. So it's not really a matter of flying timid, or lack of agression. It's just knowing there's nothing to be done, and making the poor bastard work for his kill -- that is, work as hard as one can work while sitting in a spit5 :P
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Krusty,
The AH1 Spit V at +12lbs boost was 309 on the deck.
The AH2 Spit V at +16lbs boost is about 318 on the deck.
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Nope, not so! Not too long ago (several months) I did a SpitV vs SpitIX speed test on the deck (I was curious). I set fuel burn to zero, took full fuel, tool off, from a few hundred feet dove down to ten feet or so (barely skimming the sea) and left it on WEP til the E6B wouldn't show me getting any faster. Then I left it there for a while to make doubly sure. The spit9 was the second test, so I'm a bit hazy on the exact speed, but the spit5 in AH2 (as we have it now) will only do 290 fft and 305/309 WEP. My impression was that I was surprised the spit9 was only 10mph faster than the spit5.
But those were the speeds that I got from offline tests not very long ago (WELL after the whole +16 debacle)
EDIT: Note these are "accelerate to" speeds, and not "decelerate from 550mph from a dive from 10k" speeds. The planes may hold/retain E from dives for some time, but this is misleading for a top speed test, as most of the time they're not coming out of super-speedy dives. Know what I mean?
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Originally posted by Krusty
Detch: The problem is that for the most part when you see a spit5 that has alt on you, there is nothing you can do that would allow you any chance to engage it, as it can (with its alt) rope you, zoom past you, reverse/saddle up on you all instantly and you don't have any recourse against these options (although a good dweeb-fashioned HO isn't out of the picture either). Frankly, being agressive is one thing. Being suicidal is another. Spit5 has the alt over you in a 109F. There is not one single thing you can do at ALL that will give you an advantage, and 90% of everything you can do will give the spit5 that much more of an easy target. So it's not really a matter of flying timid, or lack of agression. It's just knowing there's nothing to be done, and making the poor bastard work for his kill -- that is, work as hard as one can work while sitting in a spit5 :P
Given the same driver, a SpitV with an alt advantage is no more dangerous than any other well-gunned mid-war fighter in the game.
Re Aggressiveness: when you're faced with an opponent who's got an advantage, aggressiveness is doing things to make him blow his advantage. It isn't climbing up to him or trying follow him up a rope. Setting up the circumstances so that if an opponent attacks he has to do it on your terms is what I mean by fighting aggressively.
I can see that you aren't going to let the facts get in the way of a perfectly good phobia so I'll leave you to it.
Cheers,
asw
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But detch: What you describe is what most people consider timid flying. Running or avoiding the fight to wear down the opponent. I don't consider that agressive at all. I consider that passive, as you are on the defensive. Then if/when you can pull a reversal (like say the enemy dives in on you and you break and roll back on the enemy) then you're on the offensive again.
Oh, and PS: The "hizooka" "consipracy" isn't a conspiracy. The guns are BS. When I fly a spit I get kills in 1 ping every time. Whether it takes a wing off, a tail of, or my favorite -- both tail planes at once -- I only ever need 1 ping on any plane from any angle to mortally wound them. I much prefer Jap guns or LW guns to hispanos. But then maybe I'm masochistic? Not sure.
EDIT: Let me clarify. "The guns are BS" -- that doesn't mean they're badly/poorly modeled. Poor choice of words. It means they're newbie cannons and are way too easy to get any kills with. They're almost as powerful as 30mm I bet (hit for hit). And they fly much further and better. So by saying "The guns are BS" I don't mean they're inaccurate, it's just a poorly worded way of expressing distaste at the thought of relying on them.
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Originally posted by detch01
Given the same driver, a SpitV with an alt advantage is no more dangerous than any other well-gunned mid-war fighter in the game.
Hmmmm.
Here we part company, brother asw.
- oldman
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OM - actually was thinking "given the same driver in the same circumstances...
Successfully fighting against a spitV with alt pretty much in my experience follows the same general principals as fighting any other dangerous airplane with alt. Stay close enough to keep an eye on him and see what he's up to but not staying close enough that he can get a direct vertical drop on me. That gives me the horizontal room to affect the shape of the fight if he does drop in. The SpitV isn't an easy target or particularly easy to avoid but it most certainly is not impossible to beat. Get them fast and that infamous turn rate goes out the window as does any semblance of a decent roll rate. I am less afraid of a high SpitV with a good stick in it than I am of a high p38 with the same quality driver. The Spit's roll rate goes down when it gets very fast - the 38's roll rate increases and it's got the long-range sniper pack in the nose. The D11 jug is just as dangerous as the p38's with an alt advantage, it's roll rate doesn't degrade, it accelerates rapidly downhill and it's got 8 low-trajectory long range hitters in the wings. Either of the spits have to get much closer to affectively use the hispanos and by that time it's generally well beyond its fighting envelope. Eventually, provided of course I manage to survive long enough, the oppo's going to screw up and fly under me and climb up in front, and/or I'm going to be able to force the overshoot. If there's no overshoot when the oppo is more or less coalt, I increase speed to equalize relative E-states and have at him.
Of course I'm talking significant altitude - 1000yds or greater. At lower alt advantages just do your best to force an overshoot if you can't take him on the nose.
Krusty.
I am at a loss... You surpass yourself sir. You have the nerve to call my flying timid without the information to back it up while having already stated in this thread that the SpitV with alt is virtually unbeatable. And I quote:
But detch: What you describe is what most people consider timid flying. Running or avoiding the fight to wear down the opponent.
"There is not one single thing you can do at ALL that will give you an advantage, and 90% of everything you can do will give the spit5 that much more of an easy target."
The distance of your jump to that conclusion is truly awe inspiring. Perhaps you should read my reply (this post) to OM and reconsider your opinion of my "timid" flying style.
Re: consistant "1-ping" kills - bud that hay has already been through the bull.
And this is where I cease making heretical posts on the dread Spitfire MkV.
asw
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I'd like to chime in on the "LW conspiracy" thing.
First off, I once believed the 109 FMs were hosed myself. I proved myself wrong by spending time in them and learning them. It was me that was hosed, not the 109. The FW needs work, and Pyro has acknowledged it. But we arent debating that.
The biggest problem anyone has with the LW rides right now is the guns. More specifically, the ballistics of the guns. They suck. I noticed right away I have been spoiled by the .50s and Hispanos when I jumped in a 109F and started Spit fighting. Even at convergence range, the guns shoot high.
Maybe thats how they are supposed to be. Either way, its a far steeper learning curve to learn to hit with the LW guns (or even the Japanese guns for that matter) than with the Allied stuff.
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"But detch: What you describe is what most people consider timid flying. Running or avoiding the fight to wear down the opponent."
"There is not one single thing you can do at ALL that will give you an advantage, and 90% of everything you can do will give the spit5 that much more of an easy target."
Detch, you said that people should fly agressive, and then describe tactics that many do not consider "agressive". Hey, *I'm* not saying they're timid tactics. I just said I consider them passive (defensive) moves, to get back to the agressive (offensive) positions.
If a spitV has alt over a 109F, the second quote holds. You have very limited options. You basically avoid diving passes long enough that he wears down his E and/or alt, or you try to equalize E states with a high speed dive or lead him away at high speeds.
At that point you have some more options, but until then you're out of luck.
First of all, I was just pointing out that you might be using a misleading word, and that perhaps a different word would be better, or perhaps a different description of what you mean would be clearer. I was not making judgements on your ideas at all. I was saying that some might read that and think that's being the opposite of agressive (language/wording problem)
Second of all, High spitv quote is pretty accurate for me, even if I'm in the relatively nimble F-4. It's not that I've stopped being agressive. It's that I'm a realist, and I know how limited I am.
No F-15 pilot is going to say he is going to outrun an Sr-72, for example. Part of fighting is knowing your ride's capabilities. I still consider myself agressive, but there are times I know I'm just well and truly porked, advantage wise.
Oh, and it seems most people can get instant 1-ping disabling shots or kills in hispanos. Most have no trouble aiming or shooting at long ranges, too. Perhaps you need to tweak the convergences or (no offense intended) practice long shots more. They're quite easy and usually 1 ping with hispano is all it takes.
P.S. is anybody else annoyed that you lose BOTH tail planes in 1 hit? I'd like to keep 1 and at least pretend I can limp home and land! -- although I wonder if that'd be an unstable flight or not?
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Originally posted by Krusty
Nope, not so! Not too long ago (several months) I did a SpitV vs SpitIX speed test on the deck (I was curious). I set fuel burn to zero, took full fuel, tool off, from a few hundred feet dove down to ten feet or so (barely skimming the sea) and left it on WEP til the E6B wouldn't show me getting any faster. Then I left it there for a while to make doubly sure. The spit9 was the second test, so I'm a bit hazy on the exact speed, but the spit5 in AH2 (as we have it now) will only do 290 fft and 305/309 WEP. My impression was that I was surprised the spit9 was only 10mph faster than the spit5.
Ok, I tested both tonight. 50% gas for both, 25% either way, more or less, makes no difference in speed. 50 feet above sea level. Carefully measured using E6B. Calibrated throttle prior to runs. 2 runs of each repeated results.
Spit IX: 319 mph with WEP, 310 mph without WEP.
Spit V: 316 mph with WEP, 289 mph without WEP.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing is of course correct that the Spit IX is only 3 MPH faster than the V.