Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Paintbrush on July 31, 2005, 04:58:35 AM
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Why the quest for so much realism?
While AH has done an awesome job at making the game more and more realistic , I do not understand why they do not try to appeal to a larger market by going with a more RR setting.
Why all the realism? Seems that AH would get a lot more customers if they could at least meet RR somewhere in between if not open a full RR arena.
While I'm sure that there will be some die hard FR fans who will disagree with me, here are just few examples of things I like and dislike about AH as it is:
The scenery is awesome. But the sun glaring in my eyes when I'm facing it is irritating and unnecessary. Sure it's supposed to be FR, but can we do without the glare? Please?
The planes are realistic and really neat to look at and fly. But they are hard to take off (- auto take off), and even more hard to land. Why is this so important?
I love the game sounds and the way the planes handle. Heck, I just love to fly. But why the blackouts? They make the fights last longer and it takes much much more time to master the art of dog fighting. Sorry, I don't have the time. If I join the Air Force, I'll look you up.
Bombing: It's neat to have two drones take off with you and fly in formation. But the difficulty level of the art of bombing in AH is ridicules. Sorry, it's too time consuming to master. I spent quite some time on it online and offline. But again, I don't have enough time to continue trying. Again, why make it so difficult?
I could give more examples but I think you get the gist.
Again, I don't want to take anything away from the job that the AH team has done with this game. If you want FR, you got it here. No question. AH has done an absolutely brilliant job of making the game as lifelike as possible.
But here's what doesn't make any sense to me. I flew RR in AW1, 2 and 3 and I promise you that there were always 5 times more people playing RR than there was FR.
So what gives? Obviously, you could bring in a lot more players by opening a RR arena. I know I would jump on it in a second, and I know a lot of others, who don't fly at all now, would as well.
So what's with the big push for FR? It's not like AH is training pilots for the Air Force. So why not appeal to a larger market?
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(http://www.death-valley.us/modules/Forums/images/smiles/eek2.gif)
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
(http://www.death-valley.us/modules/Forums/images/smiles/eek2.gif)
Bah thats ugly.
(http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/forums/images/smilies/shocking.gif)
(http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/forums/images/smilies/bleh.gif)
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Originally posted by SkyChimp
Bah thats ugly.
(http://www.death-valley.us/modules/Forums/images/smiles/moon.gif)
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/384_1122833633_hehe.jpg)
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WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
"IN"
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Where can I get those setting Darkish????? ;)
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Games are fun because they are challenging. Games continue to be fun because they have depth.
RR takes away both, its great for a hoot, but would not stand the test of time as the player base would for the most part be much more transient than it is today.
If you offer someone a quick easy place to play, they learn bad habbits which are nearly impossible to correct when trying to migrate into the full fun arena. New players will quickly gravitate to the BASIC arena and never venture into advanced for more than a few minutes as they will become very frustrated.
The ADVANCED arena will therefore slowly dwindle in numbers, and at some point the critical mass required to keep it entertaining will evaporate and the game will implode upon itself.
You end up with a transient Air-Quake game. There is no reason to pay $15/month for AirQuake as there are numerous other venues for this type of twitch fest in todays world. We have an EASY BUTTON in the way of the game setting that will help keep new players from over controling the aircraft, but nothing can replace practice.
I have been playing AH since 1999 when beta one came out, and there are exactly ZERO other computer games I actively play now that I did in 1999.
Since AH started:
Ive gotten married,
Had a kid,
Bought a house,
Been promoted 5 times,
Done a complete upgrade/replacement of my computer 4 times,
Replaced my HOTAS 6 times
.....but Aces High remains.
Thats a statement that tells the whole story. If it ain't broke, dont fix it.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
This has got to be a troll. No one is this stupid.
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Originally posted by Darkish
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/384_1122833633_hehe.jpg)
:rofl Just caught the gag on this one. Now I've got coffee on my desk. Nice. :aok
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Originally posted by ALF
Since AH started:
Ive gotten married,
Had a kid,
Bought a house,
Been promoted 5 times,
Done a complete upgrade/replacement of my computer 4 times,
Replaced my HOTAS 6 times
.....but Aces High remains.
Thats a statement that tells the whole story. If it ain't broke, dont fix it.
congradulations on all of that :aok
darkish that was funny. Hub that quote is funny, and paintbrush it doesn't take long to get good enough to get kills in this game. I like the realism thing except for trees and puffy ack. The sun is a bit bright as well but you can't have your cake and eat it too (i don't get that saying) Anyway this game is fine how it is.
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realism is a crutch for the mediocre.
:aok
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Originally posted by Shane
realism is a crutch for the mediocre.
:aok
(http://sassnet.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
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on the chance that your fishing i wont even reply to this, but if you arent i feel sorry for your carer :lol
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Originally posted by megadud
congradulations on all of that :aok
darkish that was funny. Hub that quote is funny, and paintbrush it doesn't take long to get good enough to get kills in this game. I like the realism thing except for trees and puffy ack. The sun is a bit bright as well but you can't have your cake and eat it too (i don't get that saying) Anyway this game is fine how it is.
Cake?
Well hmmm.........
My understanding is .....
One can have the cake. IE it sets there and looks pretty. And you can drool etc.
Or one can eat it. But then it's gone????
????? I think that's it????? Maybe?
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ahhh let me clarify for you SoA, (I guess I should have read the original post more thoroughly :p)
by realism, I don't mean the differences from RR and FR per se, but rather the quest for even "more" realism that some seem to clamor for, like more involved engine management, more restricted views, random failures, remove ammo counters, reduce radar info, etc. etc.
AH as is stands now is no more difficult than RR/FR were - neither of which were overly difficult. AH has found a nice zone that mixes varying amounts of realism, such as it is, with gameplay concessions, such as they are.
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IN before the LOCK:cool:
Lets see fly RR in AW took about 2 weeks to stop the flat spin.
Take off......PLease
Landing ...... PLease......
Bombing..........if you can't do it in 5 flights Give it up
I don't play other games Because I don't have the time:cool:
Crims
479th Raiders FG
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Originally posted by Shane
AH as is stands now is no more difficult than RR/FR were - neither of which were overly difficult. AH has found a nice zone that mixes varying amounts of realism, such as it is, with gameplay concessions, such as they are.
Exactly.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
This has got to be a troll. No one is this stupid.
LOL....Oh ye of little faith...
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Bombing hard...
Im a bomber dweeb. I think its far too easy to bomb now.
I like this thread, its going no where fast.
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i think there is a 0.00001 this guy is for real, of course this is only based on the fact the the post is nearly 100% ridiculous.
is like turning chess into a game of tic-tac-toe.
i am surprised though that i didn't see a suggestion to make the guns accurate/and deadly up to 3k.
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umm.., so, aahh..., does this mean we will get the "power up pills" next patch or what :confused:
:aok
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It had never even occured to me to think of the sun glare and blackouts as an issue of FR vs RR. I alwyas assumed that they would be in both. It seems quite silly to me to remove those as they are integral to air combat.
As to the bombing, it took me a whole half flight to master it. It is a piece of cake.
I think this is a case of "Problem exists between chair and keyboard."
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Originally posted by traps
umm.., so, aahh..., does this mean we will get the "power up pills" next patch or what :confused:
:aok
I wanna be a level 14 M@sTa W1Z@rD that can shoot fireballs!
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I just wonder when will the 2D version be ready.
I just want it topview playable.
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Originally posted by Paintbrush
Why all the realism? Seems that AH would get a lot more customers if they could at least meet RR somewhere in between if not open a full RR arena.
But it would be full of guys of questionable masculinity. :D
Woof
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They already DO have RR play here.
Its called Spitfires:D
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A junior member myself, I agree that take off's and landing's are difficult from plane to plane. Blackouts and sun glare can be an issue however, I think you will agree that these are the realistic issues that make AH more than just another Sim.
Practice, Practice and Practice.
"Take me to the brig so I can see the real marines" Chesty Puller
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IN
:D
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
I just wonder when will the 2D version be ready.
I just want it topview playable.
Here you go. (http://acn.waw.pl/sturm/ForgottenNoobs.swf)
The sad thing is.... its too hard for me to play.
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Landing is overrated.
P.S. If you find land hard, slow down.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
I wanna be a level 14 M@sTa W1Z@rD that can shoot fireballs!
"I am Galstat, Sorcerer of Light!"
"Then how come you had to cast 'Magic Missile'?"
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Here you go. (http://acn.waw.pl/sturm/ForgottenNoobs.swf)
The sad thing is.... its too hard for me to play.
ROTF schatzi!!!! :rofl :rofl :lol :rofl :lol
when you get shot down is the best ever!!!
you are not la-7 ace! you are ordinary noob and should fly noobish planes like p47-d and 190 lmao!!!:rofl :lol :aok
i like how you can change seasons! awesome flight SIm this is!! i got 5100. got to the badprettythang plane and poof!
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Here you go. (http://acn.waw.pl/sturm/ForgottenNoobs.swf)
The sad thing is.... its too hard for me to play.
LoL me too, I got PWN3D#!@ :(
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Here you go. (http://acn.waw.pl/sturm/ForgottenNoobs.swf)
The sad thing is.... its too hard for me to play.
That is harder than flying the La-7 in AH. The first level is about the same, easy, but then I run out of ammon on the second level.
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Originally posted by Karnak
That is harder than flying the La-7 in AH. The first level is about the same, easy, but then I run out of ammon on the second level.
Theres a second level???!???!!??
OMG, i really s*** in a La7. LMAO, i just dont get those HO shots in.
Duds, can you arrange some lamer HO dweeb training for me?
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Got to 1082 and ran outa ammo.
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Paintbrush get yorself a trainer and learn the game... You'll soon be an addict like us
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Gee, what a nice bunch of guys. Actually, I thought I asked a few well thought out and civil questions, and stated a few well thought out opinions. Didn't mean to insight a riot.
For those of you making a bigger deal out of this than it is, why don't you re-read my post and pay close attention to the "I don't have the time" part.
It's not "too hard", it's too time consuming. Get it?
I doubt it.
Anyway, if you don't have friendly input then why say anything. All the while try, if you can, to remember I didn't mean to pi$$ in your post toasties.
These are valid concerns to me as I enjoy flying a great deal.
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Because I have very little time myself and found it anything but too hard.
I think you just don't like any sort of challenge, or are unused to one at any rate, if you need this to be easier.
Many of your suggestions were pure sillyness as the would massively alter the dynamics of guns air-to-air combat.
I don't don't have that much time to play and I am not a great pilot by any means, but I am rather better than the average. It isn't hard to get there either. And the fact that there is a little bit of work/challenge in it makes it all the sweeter when you do get there.
You also must understand that all too many of us know what happens when RR is implimented. How it divides a community and how it makes it harder on the developer to support both lines. Some of us have seen it before and don't want to see it here.
Take some time in the TA and that'll help. Many of us would be quite willing to spend time in there to help you get your legs under you and then there are the actual trainers which are there for just that. We aren't hostile to you, just your request. We'd like to see you get better and have fun though.
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Iceman24, thanks for being civil. That probably is good advice.
I'm probably just still spoiled from my AW RR days when I could log on for an hour and get into a few quick sorties and have lots of fun instead of fighting blackouts and redouts and trying to land my kills.
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Paintbrush, It is not that AH is harder with black outs and red outs.
Quite simply it is that your are trying to unlearn very bad habits from AW. You could pull the stick to max deflection at any time.
It is totaly different not starting out with those bad habits.
2nd your asumption about having more people if it was easyier is also not a suportible opion. There were a lot of reasons why people flew RR v FR. And a lot was because FR was harder in some respects, but less realistic in others than the RR was.
Finaly the real dificualty is not mastering the red outs or black outs, but wrather mastering the difficulty of beeing better than the other guy. This never changes with RR v Full realisim dicusions.
HiTech
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I think you just don't like any sort of challenge, or are unused to one at any rate, if you need this to be easier.
That is the furthermost thing from the truth. I love challenges. It's just that I would rather challenge the nme rather than the plane I'm flying. I have no doubt I can get it down and be quite good in this game. AW RR was challenging at first and I became quite good at it. This game would be no different if I wanted to spend the time to get it down and learn all the tips and tricks. It's just that I view a lot of the difficulty as unnecessary and I do not understand why it has to be that way. I, personally, and obviously don't care for it. I would rather spend my time in a dog fight rather than fighting the environment.
Anyway, I do appreciate the civil responce and advice.
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Why do you view red outs and black outs as unnecessary? The physical limits of the pilots are absolutely crucial to how air combat works. Eliminating those also eliminates some defensive options and that tilts the balance towards the attacker and away from the defender. It changes the whole dynamic.
You say you don't have much time, could you be more specific? How much time do you have per week? Per sitting? That might make it easier for us to suggest a course of action.
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Quite simply it is that your are trying to unlearn very bad habits from AW. You could pull the stick to max deflection at any time.
I know there is a lot of truth in that.
Why do you view red outs and black outs as unnecessary? The physical limits of the pilots are absolutely crucial to how air combat works.
Because, as this is not real life and only a flight simulator, they are unnecessary. It really just boils down to a matter of preference.
You say you don't have much time, could you be more specific? How much time do you have per week? Per sitting? That might make it easier for us to suggest a course of action.
Well. I'll just put it this way, at the current rate, I will still be getting my butt kicked this time next year. :lol
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Thats exaqctly it Paintbrush, I had the same problems when I 1st started coming from oldscool airwaarior days, my biggest problem when I first started out was keeping the plane fast or keeping my alt to save my E up... i would simply be maneuvering wayyy too much all the time instead of planning an attack route out in my head i would just simply start jerking the stick around until I got lucky and was pointed at an enemy, i could care less at that point if i was on his 6 or if it was a headon lol But I didn't know anything about actual aircombat maneuvers ( ACM's ) so that is all i knew, point and shoot... After about 4 months of messing around and trying to figure things out on my own I went and hooked up new squad that has a bunch of awesome if not the best P38 pilots in the game... 479th Raiders and they taught me how to fly, i know about all the planes maneuvers etc.. but my aim sux so its holding me back lol... when i started all I would do was bomber missions because thats all i knew, but once i figured out the fighter pilot side of it, it opened up a whole new game. BEST ADVICE I COULD EVER GIVE TO ANY NEW PLAYER OR OLD PLAYER HAVING PROBLEMS IS GET A TRAINER ... makes the game sooo much funner trust me
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Well, that isn't too terribly specific.
What aircraft do you like? Which do you choose when you do fly? What do you not like? Are you an aggressive player, or do you preffer a safer, boom and zoom style?
A good way to start again is to pick an easy to fly fighter, even if it doesn't get you a lot of kills or kill oportunities, that fits in your prefered style.
For example the A6M5b or Spitfire Mk V are good starting dogfighters, the A6M5 is a bit more forgiving and the Spitfire is a bit more lethal. For boom and zoom the La-7, as much as I dislike it, is a good starter because it can accelerate and manuever well in addition. The P-51D is a good choice too.
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I guess Iceman really nailed it. I still prefer the turn and burn, yank and bank type of dog fighting. Screw the blackouts. I just want to get on your six and pump led up your tail pipe. Then return for a safe and quick landing. It's just really hard for me to take the time to get this FR down.
Karnak, I like the Ki84 (was my favorite plane in AW) It's a little different here but I still like it here. I also like the spit 5. I never cared much for the boom and zoom plains like the 51's and 47's. I like to get in the fray and have it out, without worrying about running into trees or being rammed by another plane.
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For boom and zoom the La-7, as much as I dislike it, is a good starter because it can accelerate and manuever well in addition
OMG KARNAK NOOOOOOO
please don't tell the new guys to fly lala's lol
lol just kiddin man just thought someone should give u crap for that, it is a good plane for a starter to use (as well as aces), i would prefer em start with the spit 5, just to learn gunnery in... I started out flying corsairs lol no wonder my flying is messed up lol
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I like to get in the fray and have it out, without worrying about running into trees or being rammed by another plane.
oh amen brother don't we all... only problem is that in combat there were actually other planes and trees to hit lol and i'm sure they had the head on pilots too... Thats why if I want a good fight I go to the DA, get away from all the HO's and rammers... still gotta worry about trees tho...
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Lol Schatzi......I still found a way to hit a tree.....
Paint brush. In my humble opinion, and I do not mean for you to take offense to this....but if getting in the air is a problem....then I think ACM is way over your head. Learning how to ride the bike before you jump on and try to win the Tour D' France is a little far fetched don't you think?
I play this game for the realism. I am a pilot in real life and know what it 'feels' like to experience the things you dont like. It just adds to my experience as I can recall that feeling from memory. I also play this game for the comradery (<--spelling?) and the great community it has. The same people trying to help you. There are some absolutely great pilots in here that I get shot down by every night. I love it. Its part of the game. But you dont win the race by changing the rules in your favor.
Wow...even got Hi-Tech in on this one, great job. Thats like God answering a question from us as to why we have to have gravity....
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Paintbrush,
Ok, the Ki-84. It is a great fighter in AH, one of the best. It is one of the two fighters that I fly.
The thing about the Ki-84, and why I didn't mention it in the fighters I listed, is that to get the most out of it you need to turn off even more of the assistance. The Ki-84 is like an advanvced Spitfire in that it has more potential, but it takes more work to get that potential out. If you can get some of that potential out of it though, it is the premier brawler in AH.
If you want to learn the Ki-84 you'll need to learn to fly without combat trim. Combat trim tries to keep an aircraft trimmed for level flight at whatever speed the aircraft is going and in the Ki-84 that means that it trims heavily nose down as the speed increases. Once trimmed like that the Ki-84's already mediocre high speed elevator authority becomes worse, so bad that you can't even pull a blackout at 350mph. And that is a bad thing. With Combat Trim off and trim tabs all centered I can pull a blackout well past 400mph in it, and if I trim for nose up I can do even better than that. That one thing pretty much fixes the Ki-84's elevator authority in the speed range it should be fighting in.
Another thing to get used to are the combat flaps. They aren't quite the same as US combat flaps in that they don't deploy at 250mph, but once you get down to 168mph and get them out only a A6M, Hurri or Spitfire will out turn you, and none of those come close to matching the Ki-84's engine power. If you go into a tight spiraling climb almost nothing can get a shot on you.
The Ki-84's WEP is also special. US, RAF, VVS, other Japanese and early German fighters have 5 minutes of WEP and a 10 minute cooldown before it is fresh again. Other German fighters have 10 minutes of WEP. The Ki-84 has 1 minute 30 seconds of WEP, but only a 45 second cooldown. This allows the Ki-84 to burn WEP a lot more aggressively than any other fighter can afford.
If you like, let me know when you are available and I'll join you in the TA and practice some with you. Others that know a lot about the Ki-84 that I know can sometimes be found in the TA are Widewing and, I think, Wilbus.
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Paintbrush,
Just stick with it for a while. You will find out why things like black out, red out, sun glare, running into others are part of the game. Remember, everyone else is dealing with these, and you can use them to your advantage.
There is a long learning cure, and I think that is why I still enjoy the game after 10 years of AW and AH.
Gunner
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Paint brush. In my humble opinion, and I do not mean for you to take offense to this....but if getting in the air is a problem....then I think ACM is way over your head.
I don't take offense to that statement. However, if I do decide to take the time to get help, practice and learn the tweeks of the game, I'm going to hunt your prettythang down. Also, your comments coupled with the fact that you're a pilot in real life is no surprise to me. But, (if and when), it won't help you one bit as you will be learning the art of bailing, and take offs, all over again. ;)
The thing about the Ki-84, and why I didn't mention it in the fighters I listed, is that to get the most out of it you need to turn off even more of the assistance.
Karnak, I love the KI84 and would love to learn to fly it better. You spoke my mind sort of in your last post. I can see it's potential but I can't seem to get it down. I never thought about the combat trim. I assume this is what you meant by turning off even more of the assistance.
If you like, let me know when you are available and I'll join you in the TA and practice some with you. Others that know a lot about the Ki-84 that I know can sometimes be found in the TA are Widewing and, I think, Wilbus.
Thanks for the advice and I may take you up on your offer. I might have to swallow a little pride but I might just do it. I was a really good pilot in AW. It's just hard to start all over again. You think Wilbus will pull out the lead he put in my prettythang a couple of days ago? :lol Dang he's good. Reminds me of me and my KI in AW.
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GunnerCAF, I'll try to stick with it.
After the last half of this thread I'm already getting to like the camaraderie. There's a lot of cool people playing this game, and it's a great game no doubt.
I just wish I didn't have to......... well, bla bla bla. I'm sure my soap box is getting tireing by now, so I'll get off it.
Thanks for a very nice responce Gunner.
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Originally posted by Paintbrush
Karnak, I love the KI84 and would love to learn to fly it better. You spoke my mind sort of in your last post. I can see it's potential but I can't seem to get it down. I never thought about the combat trim. I assume this is what you meant by turning off even more of the assistance.
Yes, I meant the combat trim and I didn't think of it either. Widewing let me know about that. And the effect on the Ki-84 is what convinced me to turn it off for good. Flying without it is a little less convienient, but in the end the aircraft usually respond better without it.
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combat trim messes every plane up, only time i use it is if I just need a quick trim and then I turn it off real quick and adjust from there... Turn off that stall limiter and turn off those tracers and turn off that combat trim, I still leave my auto takeoff on but never use it if im launching from a cv as it could be turning... Just my personal preferances.... If you turn off your tracers you will start to memorize where your shots should land depending on lead, plus the enemy wont be able to tell your shooting at them until you hit them :) I never use tracers, trust me it helps allot, makes u mentally memorize the pathe of your cone of fire
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oh and dude if you ever need any basic flying lessons or basic ACM lessons ( air combat maneuvers ) such as split S's yoyo's immelmans... sttuff like that I would be glad to show u a few things, and if you ever need to know anything about bombing im the man... just dont up em much anymore, i'll show u how to land a Lancaster on a cv back it up reload and launch again :) its always fun to do because everyone around the cv will watch just to see if you can do it... if you want you can just .join me on a few flights in the MA for bombing and we can just go to the DA for dogfighting, I fly bishops... my home email is iceman24@netzero.com usually on around 6:00pm-12:00 central, I may not be the best stick, but I can show you anything about basic ACM's as well as anything about bombing, dive or in heavy flat bombers, sometimes its best just to fly a few sorties with people and learn the ways of the game... my email at work is debearden@siegling-us.com
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also if you wanna check out allot of cool vids that teach the maneuvers go to our squad website http://479.jasminemarie.com
allot of cool vids on there, just go to download section or PJ univerity, lots of good articles, there based on flying P38's but you can use them to apply to any fighter
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Paintbrush or anyone else, feel free to look me up in the MA if you need any help flying bombers the real way, ie fly above 15k. I can help with delays and salvos and a few other things. Been playing alittle over 4 years so I should be somewhat good at it all. My handle in arena is BlueJ1 our yall can email me at BueJ17@adelphia.net
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Paintbrush.....I do know about time constraints. I work turns and am not online for days at a time. Then in a two day period I might spend 8 hours. Air Warrior and Aces High have a lot in common on the education side. First just learning to take off, then flying your aircraft let alone trying to shoot someone down. It's the same as when you were a NOOB in RR playing Air Warrior
Have patience....and above all forget totally what you learned in Air Warrior. Flight Models as you know differ on each aircraft. Some do some things well and are lacking in other areas such as climbing, turning etc. Performance at altitude vs. performance on the deck and so on. Suggest you first do this.
Learn the Ki's abilities and it's shortcomings. Just learn to feel comfortable in it. Then when you feel confident fly other planes and feel them out and compare to your favorite ride. You'll see advantages you'll have against specific aircraft and disadvantages.
You're going to get your butt shot off.....a lot. We did also. Patience young Skywalker! The gents in this post have graciously offered their time to give you a hand in learning. Karnak and Wilbuz are very good sticks and great guys to boot! And above all FORGET AIR WARRIOR! Most of us already have.
If you see me online I'll be glad to help you out. I don't fly the Ki however. Karnak and Wil are the authorites there.
There's a lot to learn so start studying Jedi!