Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on August 03, 2005, 03:18:30 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/03/toddler.autopsy/index.html
who is to blame for the death of the little child?
In my book the father killed the little girl through his negligence but I could certainly sympathise with those that believe law enforcement reacted poorly to the situation. One thing is for sure, I would be very hesitent to give millions of tax dollars to the family of the now deceased negligent father and child as compensation.
What say you?
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it's my opinion that in such situations ... the police should back off and wait for the situation to calm down ....
I think they press too hard making an, angry, disturbed sick induvidual do rash, horrible things-like start a firefight with a child in his arms ......
How long could he have held that child? ... a few hours? The cops couldn't pull back watch and wait?
It's like high speed chases .... dont' chase the idiot makeing him do rash things that endanger others ... follow him far behind and with choppers.... let him run out of gas ....
The cops may have had no choice once he staretd fireing, but they excalated the situation. Sometimes it's better to wait and watch.
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Sure is great to debate something like this with hindsight.
Guy used the kid as a hostage and shield. Sad :(
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The child, who weighed 20 pounds, also was shot in the leg. Both bullets traveled through her body, and several minor fragment wounds were detected on the surface of her lower and upper extremities, according to the autopsy report, which was released Tuesday.
SWAT members of the Los Angeles Police Department fired up to 60 rounds when they stormed a business where Jose Raul Pena barricaded himself while holding his daughter as a "human shield," police said.
fire 60 rounds at a guy holding a child as a human shield? That is just wrong, it is hard to blame the police - they have a great record, but in that situation i think they should have tried another method.
Last month's ordeal was the second time in the SWAT team's 38-year history that a hostage died during a standoff, police said. In the early 1970s, a hostage-taker killed the victim, according to police.
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He shot one of the cops.
In the heat of the moment I can not blame them for what they did.
The father is 100% responsible.
It is a shame, and those officers are going to have to live with it the rest of their lives. I am sure it will haunt them. Thats enough.
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Originally posted by Furball
fire 60 rounds at a guy holding a child as a human shield? That is just wrong, it is hard to blame the police - they have a great record, but in that situation i think they should have tried another method.
the guy really didn't leave them any option. He came out of his house twice with the little girl as a shield and fired at the police each time, the 2nd time wounding a SWAT officer. Not once during these two occasions did the police return fire, it was only after the third incident when the father came out and opened fire again did the police resort to firing back. This guy was intent on dying and taking his girl with him. It's a tragedy and one that the police officers involved will be plagued with the rest of their lives because one man intent on dying left them little choice.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Yeager
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/03/toddler.autopsy/index.html
who is to blame for the death of the little child?
In my book the father killed the little girl through his negligence but I could certainly sympathise with those that believe law enforcement reacted poorly to the situation. One thing is for sure, I would be very hesitent to give millions of tax dollars to the family of the now deceased negligent father and child as compensation.
What say you?
VERY HESITENT????
How about no chance in hell....
There are SO MANY what ifs in this story but to blame the LAPD? What if they guy who was using his daughter as a human shield shot and killed several others while police did nothing?
I've been listening to this whole story play out the past couple of weeks and it disgusts me. First the minorities blaming the police first. Then the fact that this guy is in the country illegally. SECOND WHAT IF: what if the INS deported him (for the second time) when he was in jail after being arrested a few months back.
Third what if: What if the scum didn't use a toddler as a human shield.
Yea the minorities got it right on this one "them dam police is to blame" no I'm not being racist I actuall saw somone say that on the local news. It's not as if the police were blood thirsty killers like this guys family wants you to beleive. Several have been in counseling for weeks now because they were so tramatized by the outcome of this event. The only one to blame.....the scum father
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Hiyas Yeag!!!
You flyin?
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Originally posted by Furball
fire 60 rounds at a guy holding a child as a human shield? That is just wrong, it is hard to blame the police - they have a great record, but in that situation i think they should have tried another method.
furball what they arent telling you is they fired those rounds over several DIFFERENT gun fights.
They guy retreated into his business. After police RESCUED his oldest daughter they went in after him fearing the child may have been wounded. More fire fights with police erupted INSIDE as well.
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Originally posted by Manedew
it's my opinion that in such situations ... the police should back off and wait for the situation to calm down ....
I think they press too hard making an, angry, disturbed sick induvidual do rash, horrible things-like start a firefight with a child in his arms ......
How long could he have held that child? ... a few hours? The cops couldn't pull back watch and wait?
It's like high speed chases .... dont' chase the idiot makeing him do rash things that endanger others ... follow him far behind and with choppers.... let him run out of gas ....
The cops may have had no choice once he staretd fireing, but they excalated the situation. Sometimes it's better to wait and watch.
yea i mean why don't they just say all is forgiven. Take your Illegal immigrint drug using self and firearm and go wreak havoc someweres else. Oh and wear this helmet and body armor...we woulnd want you to get hurt while you commit your crimes and murder.
Here’s how the attempted cop massacre began. At 2 pm on July 10, Lorena Lopez called the police and filed a domestic threats report against Pena. Pena then abducted his 18-month-old daughter Susie from the mother’s home and took her to his car lot. Next, Pena’s 16-year-old stepdaughter called the police from the car lot, saying that Pena was physically threatening her. The police arrive, and Pena starts firing at them while holding his toddler in front of him. The police help the stepdaughter escape the line of fire. Pena continues to shoot, even as the SWAT team is trying to negotiate over the phone with Pena to peacefully surrender. Shooting continues for the next hour and a half, with the toddler always used by the coward as a make-shift bullet-proof vest. After hitting an officer, Pena goes down, his daughter with him.
During the incident, Pena used a 9-millimeter Beretta pistol which had been stolen last year in a burglary in Oregon. His office at the car dealership contained a bag of cocaine and a half-drunk bottle of Tequila—consistent with the illegal Pena’s previous deportation for cocaine possession.
Videotape captured images of Pena shooting at the police while holding his daughter, yet his relatives are questioning not only whether he used his daughter as a shield, but whether he was even armed at all, according to the Los Angeles Times.
Nightly anti-cop protests at the shooting site have grown so violent that community activists have asked the public to stay away. On July 14, protesters surrounded an officer making a routine traffic stop and began threatening him. He escaped, but the police needed to call a tactical alert for the second night in a row, reports the Times.
The New York Times has been covering the story, too—completely agnostically about where the fault lies. Naturally, they cannot be bothered to share with the public the fact that Pena was illegal—not just illegal, in fact, but, as a returned deportee, an alien felon.
Los Angeles’s newly elected Hispanic mayor, Antonio Villaraigosa, has been assiduously careful not to assign blame, even though there can not be a shadow of a doubt about who was the malefactor here. “We’re going to get to the bottom of this,” he said on July 14. “We’re going to examine every fact, [and] there will be transparency throughout. That’s important.” No, more important is to back up your officers who every day put their lives on the line to try to protect people who are happy to see them verbally and physically attacked.
Pena’s abused girlfriend, Lorena Lopez, immediately hired a lawyer. Expect a million-dollar lawsuit against the LAPD and the Los Angeles taxpayers for a murder committed by a man who should not have even been in the country.
also
Another crime that would have never happened in America if we enforced our immigration laws (http://www.alipac.us/article538.html)
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Originally posted by Manedew
Deleted
Since you deleted so will I
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wow was still looking at things and your posting lol
and yes .... I've had some bad experiances with 'Dirty' cops..... they have a way of ruining your attitude.
I still think the protocol should be examined
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Originally posted by Manedew
wow was still looking at things and your posting lol
and yes .... I've had some bad experiances with 'Dirty' cops..... they have a way of ruining your attitude.
I still think the protocol should be examined
and from reading the actual police report about the incident I think they tried everything they could and the situation got away from them. If the swat officer had made a clean head shot and the guy dropped and the little girl was saved they'd all be heros.
Of course that would be a risk as well. These arent you're "pull you over and bust your head light guys". I know they exist, especially in the LAPD. I bet 99% of those guys out there wanted to save this little girl more than anything but it just wasn't in the cards.
to lay blame on the police and not some coked up illegal who has a criminal past and used a little girl as a human shield is apauling to say the least.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
He shot one of the cops.
In the heat of the moment I can not blame them for what they did.
The father is 100% responsible.
It is a shame, and those officers are going to have to live with it the rest of their lives. I am sure it will haunt them. Thats enough.
Here here.
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Hi Rude. I miss you guys, All of you!
I have been playing on line in SWG (starwarsgalaxies) but have recently started playing IL2s pacific fighters and have really enjoyed it. Its quite a bit more complex than what I remember AH2 to be.
Hope all is well with the family back home. Havent heard from Joe in a long while. Have you guys heard from him?
Take care Rude, say hi to all the fellas for me!
Keep in touch!
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I hate the idea of those lawmen killing that poor little girl. What I hate far far more, is the idea that her own dad held her hostage and for all intents and purposes, killed that poor innocent child in an effort to extend his own miserable death by a few wretched hours.
My heart goes out to the angles of heaven that have to explain to the creator how pure evil killed that poor child.
Hopefully thats what will happen. If not then it really doesnt matter what happens.
Does it?
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I blame the much lower recruitment requirements and the getting away from .357 revolvers because all the women and cops freightened of guns couldn't handle em.
lazs
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Originally posted by Yeager
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/03/toddler.autopsy/index.html
who is to blame for the death of the little child?
In my book the father killed the little girl through his negligence but I could certainly sympathise with those that believe law enforcement reacted poorly to the situation. One thing is for sure, I would be very hesitent to give millions of tax dollars to the family of the now deceased negligent father and child as compensation.
What say you?
When her father decided to use her as a human shield, he forfeited her life. It's his fault and none other.
Her family doesn't deserve a dime.
Note to dip****s... when the nice police officer points his gun at you and tells you to do something, do it.
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It is clearly and solely the fault of teh Boosh. Possibly teh Kleenton though.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I blame the much lower recruitment requirements and the getting away from .357 revolvers because all the women and cops freightened of guns couldn't handle em.
lazs
Are you serious?
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When her father decided to use her as a human shield, he forfeited her life. It's his fault and none other.
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in a rare fit of logic sandman makes sense and is sentanced to life without parole.
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Originally posted by Manedew
it's my opinion that in such situations ... the police should back off and wait for the situation to calm down ....
I think they press too hard making an, angry, disturbed sick induvidual do rash, horrible things-like start a firefight with a child in his arms ......
How long could he have held that child? ... a few hours? The cops couldn't pull back watch and wait?
It's like high speed chases .... dont' chase the idiot makeing him do rash things that endanger others ... follow him far behind and with choppers.... let him run out of gas ....
The cops may have had no choice once he staretd fireing, but they excalated the situation. Sometimes it's better to wait and watch.
High speed chases cannot be handled in the manner that you state. Bottom line he fired 40 rounds at the cops, and the cops shot 100. If we enforced our immigration laws, this particular incident never would have happened.
Karaya
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I actually do think that making .357 revolvers standard issue for cops and throwing out any cop who couldn't master their use would go a long way toward cutting down on shots fired in a gunfight. .357 is still an extremely accurate and versitile round and the top of the heap for stoping power. revolvers allow the use of all types of ammo even including frangible and "less lethal"
lazs
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"Toddler slain in police shootout had cocaine in system
Trace amounts blamed on second-hand smoke or milk
Friday, August 5, 2005; Posted: 12:23 a.m. EDT (04:23 GMT)
LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- A 19-month-old toddler killed in a gun battle between police and her father had trace amounts of cocaine in her urine, according to toxicological tests released Thursday.
The toddler, Suzie Marie Lopez, was killed last month by a bullet wound to her head by Los Angeles police after a failed rescue attempt by members of SWAT. Authorities said the toddler most likely ingested cocaine either by second hand smoke or possibly through breast milk.
"We found about 0.07 micrograms of cocaine per milliliter in her system and it had been there at least a couple of days," said Los Angeles coroner investigator David Smith.
More than 130 gunshots were exchanged between police and 34-year-old Jose Raul Pena, who barricaded himself in a small office room after taking the toddler hostage for 2 1/2 hours.
Crime scene photographs released last month showed cocaine residue scattered over Pena's office desk at his auto shop in the Watts section of Los Angeles. Autopsy results on Pena have not been completed, authorities said.
An attorney representing the toddler's family declined to comment on the report, saying he had not reviewed the autopsy report.
Last month's standoff began as a 911 disturbance call when Pena's estranged common law wife made a domestic terrorist report, accusing Pena of threatening her, his stepdaughter and the toddler, according to police.
When officers arrived on the scene, Pena began shooting at police, eventually unleashing 40 shots while police fired more than 100 rounds throughout the ordeal.
In earlier statements, Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton blamed Pena solely for the death of the girl and found no evidence in the preliminary investigation that pointed to any criminal wrongdoing by police officers.
The autopsy report released earlier this week concluded the girl suffered two gunshot wounds by police, including one shot that blew out most of her brain. "
Upon further review, both parents are to blame.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Sandman
When her father decided to use her as a human shield, he forfeited her life.
That life was not his to forfeit. It was however the LAPD's responsibility to protect that life. The girl was not the criminal...she was the victim. The LAPD was there to serve and protect that victim and they let her down big time.
I am sorry that the officer was wounded in the shoulder. But a hail of bullets in response, which leads to the innocent hostage being killed is not an acceptable practice. You don't shoot the hostage so the police can protect themselves from the criminal. The police are there to protect the innocent hostage from the criminal.
Being a cop is a tough dangerous job no matter how much protective body armor is supplied. But the moment a police officer decides to gravely endanger innocent lives to stop a criminal at all costs is the moment they have lost perspective on why they are in that job...and should probably consider a less dangerous line of work.
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Originally posted by crowMAW
That life was not his to forfeit. It was however the LAPD's responsibility to protect that life. The girl was not the criminal...she was the victim. The LAPD was there to serve and protect that victim and they let her down big time.
I am sorry that the officer was wounded in the shoulder. But a hail of bullets in response, which leads to the innocent hostage being killed is not an acceptable practice. You don't shoot the hostage so the police can protect themselves from the criminal. The police are there to protect the innocent hostage from the criminal.
Being a cop is a tough dangerous job no matter how much protective body armor is supplied. But the moment a police officer decides to gravely endanger innocent lives to stop a criminal at all costs is the moment they have lost perspective on why they are in that job...and should probably consider a less dangerous line of work.
well what about Pena endangering innocent lives. You don't want to blame the coked up illegal immigrant scum father using a 19 month old as a human shield......fine keep the "blinders of life on"
But there'd be alot more too this if pena had shot a teenage girl by chance walking home from school......or a mother grocery shopping...
Or like I said earlier, if the SWAT officer dropped this guy with a head shot after 2 1/2 hours of negotiations they'd all be heros.
Human shield or no it they guy needs to be taken out if he's a risk to the public or the officers invovled. Ketting shot and killed by coked up illegal scum is not in the LAPD job description.
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Originally posted by crowMAW
That life was not his to forfeit. It was however the LAPD's responsibility to protect that life. The girl was not the criminal...she was the victim. The LAPD was there to serve and protect that victim and they let her down big time.
I am sorry that the officer was wounded in the shoulder. But a hail of bullets in response, which leads to the innocent hostage being killed is not an acceptable practice. You don't shoot the hostage so the police can protect themselves from the criminal. The police are there to protect the innocent hostage from the criminal.
Being a cop is a tough dangerous job no matter how much protective body armor is supplied. But the moment a police officer decides to gravely endanger innocent lives to stop a criminal at all costs is the moment they have lost perspective on why they are in that job...and should probably consider a less dangerous line of work.
Untenable. The moment you shift the responsibilty for the childs death to the police in this situation you forfiet the responsibility of the guy that held the child, carrying it into harms way.
If the father sat the bundle down on the freeway and the child died from being run over, it's the driver of the cars fault?
Liberal insanity. The police responded to deadly force with deadly force. Message.. don't use deadly force against police. They'll kill you.
The correct message in my opinion.
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have you seen the latest on this story? the little girl had cocain in her system?!?! how crazy is that?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/05/lapd.toddler.death/index.html
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Originally posted by crowMAW
Being a cop is a tough dangerous job no matter how much protective body armor is supplied. But the moment a police officer decides to gravely endanger innocent lives to stop a criminal at all costs is the moment they have lost perspective on why they are in that job...and should probably consider a less dangerous line of work.
Did you expect the police to negotiate while that guy was shooting at them?
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Originally posted by NATEDOG
have you seen the latest on this story? the little girl had cocain in her system?!?! how crazy is that?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/05/lapd.toddler.death/index.html
Like I said earlier this has been a hot topic on the LOCAL talk radio here especially the fact that this guy should have been deported a number of times when arrested.
This just further goes to show that these protesting communities don't have a legg to stand on. To me it infuriates me that anyone would even think to blame the police in this instence.
To make matters worse every time the "silent majority" speaks out about this we are labled as racists.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Several have been in counseling for weeks now because they were so traumatized by the outcome of this event.
Heatwave affecting you?
SWAT does NOT stand for 'Sissy Women And Toddlers'. Poor guys, we need to collect some $$ so they can afford better shrinks...
1. First what SWAT guys learn is: NOBODY DIES
2. Girl died by SHOTGUN wound! HELLO, you don't play with shotgun when hostages are around. Where were the snipers?
3. Everybody taking hostages is a scum, that doesn't mean you can kill hostages cause the guy was a (insert few nasties).
4. SWAT screwed up this one. They could disable the guy (killing him or whatever) without killing the baby.
5. If SWAT can't handle stuff like that, then we don't need SWAT. Just send regular cops...
6. Lazs was right. Good shooter (sniper) could disable (kill) the guy without hurting innocent.
7. Mane was right. They could pull back and wait/reorganize/whatever
8. CrowMAW was right.
9. Sandman, yes, that's exactly what they should do. Negotiate, days if needed (they are paid for it), until right opportunity is there. BAM, bullet right between the eyes - no others hurt.
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Hi 2big,
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Heatwave affecting you?
2. Girl died by SHOTGUN wound! HELLO, you don't play with shotgun when hostages are around. Where were the snipers?
The original CNN story stated "Suzie Marie Lopez died as a result of a high-velocity rifle wound to her head fired from a distance, a medical examination found"
How did you come to the conclusion that a shotgun was used?
From what I have read, the father ultimately murdered his daughter. It was not a bullet from his gun that killed her, but from a moral standpoint, it just as well might have been. He failed to fulfill all of the basic responsibilities parents have to their children and then directly placed her life in mortal danger by provoking a "suicide by cop" confrontation.
Could the police have done things differently? Perhaps, but to tell the truth, I don't know. Many hostage standoffs end in a murder/suicide scenario even when the cops do adopt a "go slow" policy. This is especially common when the perp is seriously emotionally distraught or under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.
In the case of a man actually opening fire on police officers first, it is easy for us to say "you should not have returned fire" but when 9mm rounds fired by a criminal are coming your way, your paramount duty is to take whatever lawful steps are necessary to preserve your own life. The duty of police officers cannot be held to be "Be willing to die rather than returning fire."
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
9. Sandman, yes, that's exactly what they should do. Negotiate, days if needed (they are paid for it), until right opportunity is there. BAM, bullet right between the eyes - no others hurt.
Bull****. Police don't negotiate with people that are shooting at them. They shoot back... and rightly so.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Heatwave affecting you?
SWAT does NOT stand for 'Sissy Women And Toddlers'. Poor guys, we need to collect some $$ so they can afford better shrinks...
1. First what SWAT guys learn is: NOBODY DIES
2. Girl died by SHOTGUN wound! HELLO, you don't play with shotgun when hostages are around. Where were the snipers?
3. Everybody taking hostages is a scum, that doesn't mean you can kill hostages cause the guy was a (insert few nasties).
4. SWAT screwed up this one. They could disable the guy (killing him or whatever) without killing the baby.
5. If SWAT can't handle stuff like that, then we don't need SWAT. Just send regular cops...
6. Lazs was right. Good shooter (sniper) could disable (kill) the guy without hurting innocent.
7. Mane was right. They could pull back and wait/reorganize/whatever
8. CrowMAW was right.
9. Sandman, yes, that's exactly what they should do. Negotiate, days if needed (they are paid for it), until right opportunity is there. BAM, bullet right between the eyes - no others hurt.
The original CNN story stated "Suzie Marie Lopez died as a result of a high-velocity rifle wound to her head fired from a distance, a medical examination found"
(http://www.thevegetable.net/images/pics/owned_cat.jpeg)
yea like I said the police guys including SWAT were upset by the fact that the girl died.
Maybe you should READ before posting cause you obviously havnt been reading anything in this thread.
They were under negotiations for 2+ hours with the guy trying to work things out when he came out blazing with a 19 month old as a human shield. They took a shot and missed.
The police are not the ones to blame here but if you want to feel sorry for a coked up illegal alien holding a little girl as a human shield be my guest.
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While I agree that it is solely the Fathers and more or less the mother's fault as well, where was the less-then-lethal flashbang, teargas, etc? If he was in a building I would think they could get that stuff going. It's a hard situtaion, would he have killed his daughter as well if things came down to it? Maybe. Accidents happen, and I would be proud of any officer that tried to disarm this guy. If the sniper was shooting from the guys front, it was a bad spot to snipe from in my opinion. Take a side shot. It's really sad that this guy could come back illegally like many others do everyday. Whats even worse is that he had his own car lot.
Just my opinion.
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to make matters worse after this all took place several mexican news stations to include Telemundo reported that the guy was "unarmed"
talk about sturring the pot.
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Seagoon
The duty of police officers cannot be held to be "Be willing to die rather than returning fire."
Ahhh yeah police... Sorry, I was thinking what average Joe would do to save the girl, or fireman perhaps, or next door neighbor, or even evangelical pastor who's calling for prayers for the persecuted church. No, sorry, I don't wanna talk who was responsible moraly...
LAPD SWAT is trained for hostage rescue since mid 80s. Guys were sent to Europe to learn from British, French and Germans.
Their excellent record shows they are indeed capable of doing just that.
Unluckily for the little girl, the most experienced SWAT vets were replaced by hotshots who couldn't take a cover and hold the fire. But they are forgiven...
Originally posted by Gunslinger
The police are not the ones to blame here but if you want to feel sorry for a coked up illegal alien holding a little girl as a human shield be my guest.
I feel sorry for the innocent child, which you obviously don't give a crap about, instead you are turning the case into political debate about illegal aliens. The best if every citizen gets barcode tatoo on forehead, so that when you join border militia, you'll know whom to shoot.
C'mon Gunslinger, we are talking about children here. You do have kids, right?
Originally posted by Sandman
and rightly so
Yeah, and next time when some madman takes school bus hostage, blow it up with RPG if he dares to point gun at officers and world will be beautiful again.
Can't really discuss value of human life with those who are wasting the best years of it in AH O'Club.
Out!
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Can't really discuss value of human life with those who are wasting the best years of it in AH O'Club.
Out!
Nice debating form.
We love you. Really. Please don't go drown yourself in the toilet.
I just cleaned it.
Why not just call the cops and then outside & shoot yerself in the head instead?
This way we can blame your death on the cops too.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
I feel sorry for the innocent child, which you obviously don't give a crap about, instead you are turning the case into political debate about illegal aliens. The best if every citizen gets barcode tatoo on forehead, so that when you join border militia, you'll know whom to shoot.
C'mon Gunslinger, we are talking about children here. You do have kids, right?
Out!
Yes I do have kids, I also feel terrible for the family. But, I live in the area and have to hear about this and it infuriates me that the community and others blame the police first. In addition I'd never use my son as a human shield.
I don't think I'm being political about the illegal thing but facts are facts this would have never happend if this guy was deported a second time and our borders were more secure then they are.
Everyone can arm chair quaterback this all they want but they werent there. Like I said before these police tried to get the guy out peacfully and it went bad. As much as we want it we cannot expect perfection from these guys all the time. They are trained well and put there lives on the line for our safety every single day.
I've seen the news were these minority communitys are blaming the police and even news reports saying the guy was un-armed and it pisses me off.
The BLAME clearly goes to the scum not the cops. They were doing their job and it went wrong.
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These cops have wives, kids, families.
They aren't going to jeapordize the welfare of their own one bit more than necessary.
In the big scheme of things, their lives are more important than the life of a mere child. They have responsibilities to uphold.
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Well, Sandman, next time you go over Goler or somewhere else, ditch xterra club, pickup Gunslinger, call me, and I'll get you guys to someplace nice.
While in my beloved desert, city folk is more alien to me than salamanderly pear to salad, but I should be nice to all guests.
It is more likely we'll reach common ground around campfire after drink or two then here on the message board.
Cyas in the desert.
PS
Gunslinger, the rain which doesn't reach the ground is called Virga here...
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Mine the border between Mexico and the US, problemS solved.
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Originally posted by Sandman
These cops have wives, kids, families.
They aren't going to jeapordize the welfare of their own one bit more than necessary.
In the big scheme of things, their lives are more important than the life of a mere child. They have responsibilities to uphold.
Good point sandy,
It's kinda like what they teach life guards. You save yourself before you save the victom. If something happens to you than the victom is screwed reguardless. We don't pay these guys to die we pay them to protect and serve.
2bighorn,
just what desert we talkin bout? and why yas call it viagra?
;)
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It's a fine line.. I don't believe that the government should ever endanger children no matter who started it... Perect cases were waco and ruby ridge... No one was in danger in those cases except the people being sieged and the kids..
If the people being seiged are shooting randomly and you can't evacuate or make safe the neighborhood then you need to maybe take a few more chances with the childrens lves in order to take out the bad guy.
In the ruby ridge and waco examples they were isolated and of no danger to the population and the government used deadly force in a careless and unnecessary way that accomplished nothing but the deaths of innocents.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I blame the much lower recruitment requirements and the getting away from .357 revolvers because all the women and cops freightened of guns couldn't handle em.
lazs
How do the .357 magnum wheelguns figure into it? Most cops I shoot with can't hit their bellybutton with both hands using ANY pistol.
I think the original poster has it right, maybe for the wrong reasons. Dude gets all coked up, does some really stupid stuff, and gets put down by the cops. They don't use "surgical" techniques, the situation obviously got WAAAAY out of control, and an innocent was killed. It's very sad, and not fair to the little girl, but I can't see where one can really blame anybody but Senor Pena.
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Originally posted by Sandman
These cops have wives, kids, families.
They aren't going to jeapordize the welfare of their own one bit more than necessary.
In the big scheme of things, their lives are more important than the life of a mere child. They have responsibilities to uphold.
So, does this mean that firefighters should sit and wait till it is completely safe to enter a building rather than try to rescue people trapped inside while it is burning? Sorry, but cops choose to enter a dangerous line of work to protect the innocent from criminals. If they are doing it otherwise...they need to get a different job. I don't want people with that mentality in that job so that they might kill my innocent daughter in order to stop a perp and call her death regrettible but justified.
I could accept if they killed the hostage to protect other innocent people from harm. But they had been in negociations with this person for 2+ hours...you cannot tell me that the area had not been quardend off and that the danger was limited in scope. (so Gunslinger, your strawman of a bystander getting shot is moot). But in this case they shot the innocent victim who happened to be in the way of them protecting themselves from the perp.
That is what is untenable...and yes Hangtime, the driver would be at equally at fault if he had opportunity to avoid running the bundle over. In this case, what would have been the risk to keeping the area clear and waiting Pena out? What is the worst that would have happend? Perhaps he would have murdered his child and killed himself...but there would have been the possibility that the outcome would have been different.
And I agree with Nirvana...I would have looked at the cops who put their own lives at risk to succesfully disarm that guy as heros...just as I see the firefighters who lost their lives trying to save innocent victims in the World Trade Center as heros. But these LAPD took the easy way--just shoot'em both--and I don't see that as heroic or brave...just pathetic.
And Gunslinger...I don't give a rat's behind for the perp in this case, but as 2bighorn said, you don't seem to have much remorse that the child died (nor you Sand). So let me ask you both...if it had been your child that this guy was holding hostage...would you have gone up to the cops afterwards and patted them on the back saying, "WTG, you got the scum kiddnapping my kid. And I completely understand that you had to kill my kid to do it...that's cool with me so long as you killed that scum perp."
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Originally posted by crowMAW
So, does this mean that firefighters should sit and wait till it is completely safe to enter a building rather than try to rescue people trapped inside while it is burning? Sorry, but cops choose to enter a dangerous line of work to protect the innocent from criminals. If they are doing it otherwise...they need to get a different job. I don't want people with that mentality in that job so that they might kill my innocent daughter in order to stop a perp and call her death regrettible but justified.
I could accept if they killed the hostage to protect other innocent people from harm. But they had been in negociations with this person for 2+ hours...you cannot tell me that the area had not been quardend off and that the danger was limited in scope. (so Gunslinger, your strawman of a bystander getting shot is moot). But in this case they shot the innocent victim who happened to be in the way of them protecting themselves from the perp.
That is what is untenable...and yes Hangtime, the driver would be at equally at fault if he had opportunity to avoid running the bundle over. In this case, what would have been the risk to keeping the area clear and waiting Pena out? What is the worst that would have happend? Perhaps he would have murdered his child and killed himself...but there would have been the possibility that the outcome would have been different.
And I agree with Nirvana...I would have looked at the cops who put their own lives at risk to succesfully disarm that guy as heros...just as I see the firefighters who lost their lives trying to save innocent victims in the World Trade Center as heros. But these LAPD took the easy way--just shoot'em both--and I don't see that as heroic or brave...just pathetic.
And Gunslinger...I don't give a rat's behind for the perp in this case, but as 2bighorn said, you don't seem to have much remorse that the child died (nor you Sand). So let me ask you both...if it had been your child that this guy was holding hostage...would you have gone up to the cops afterwards and patted them on the back saying, "WTG, you got the scum kiddnapping my kid. And I completely understand that you had to kill my kid to do it...that's cool with me so long as you killed that scum perp."
after having read the police report......and if it was my kid.....I would still blame the perp. It's a fine line in control of a situation like this and loss of control.
what you don't realize is that fire fighters and cops are no good at their jobs if they are dead. Yes they take risks and put there lives on the line but them getting killed for nothing does no one any good. Dont tell me I don't hold any remorse for the kid. I have children and don't know what I'd do if I lost one. What I don't feel sorry for is the community and in some cases the family of the child. While not culpable in THIS situation they could have probably prevented a known drug addict from these kids.
Keep blaming the cops though if it makes you feel better.
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You make it sound as if a firefighter or police officer's life is forfeit simply because they chose a dangerous line of work.
All those officers that were around the perp were innocent as well. People always tend to get their underwear in a bunch if a young child gets killed. Yeah, it's tragic, but IMHO it's a whole helluva lot worse if someone's father or mother dies.
This isn't about remorse. It's about establishing blame. Some would blame the police. I sure as hell don't. The full blame belongs to the bellybutton clown that used his own child as a shield. He made that choice, not the police.
Same goes for Waco. Those clowns made that choice as well.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
what you don't realize is that fire fighters and cops are no good at their jobs if they are dead. Yes they take risks and put there lives on the line but them getting killed for nothing does no one any good.
Seems to me they are just as ineffective in their jobs if they aren't willing to do what it takes to rescue an innocent person from the hands of a criminal or a burning building. A cop's job is to protect people from criminals...arrest or justified deadly force is a tool to that end. A firefighter's job is to prevent loss of life in case of fire...putting the fire out is a means to that end.
And I don't see how saving the life of a toddler, or any other person, is "for nothing". I certainly don't see that the firefighters who died in the World Trade Center did so for nothing. They were heros because they put their life on the line--and ultimately gave that life--in the attempt to save innocent people.
Sand...I don't see that their lives are forfiet. I am not saying that cops or firefighters should be sent into potentially leathal situations without all the protection we can provide. But if they are not willing to recognize that they may die while protecting innocent lives and if they are not willing to put their lives on the line to protect the innocent then they need to find different work.
The cops are not innocent bystanders. They have chosen to place themselves in dangerous situations (albiet, not of their making) in order to protect the innocent. The hostage did not have that choice...she was innocent.
I don't blame the police for the situation...that was caused by Pena. But I do blame the cops for poor decision making that led to the death of an innocent victim that they should have been there to protect. There were other options...the cops made a poor choice. In a hostage situation, it seems to me, that the #1 concern should be to save the hostage...and from that perspective the LAPD failed miserably.
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Did any of you armchair street tactical freaking mental giants think that dear old dad was just standing still and potting shots off? Is it not possible that his movements put the kid in the way of a shot that was being taken from a distance. All it takes is a few degrees of movement to swing the kid into the path of what a fraction of a second before was a good take down shot. In a fluid tactical situation like a real hot firefight things don't happen like a staged scene out of TV land and some of you really have no idea about that.
Crowmaw you really should go join a department and get a clue as you certainly don't have one from your posts. Find out what it really is like before you start dictating tactical operations from the safety of your living room chair.
The one person who had the absolute control to save that kids life was the father. This is another example of the good drugs do to individuals and their families. All he had to do was put the child down along with the weapon and walk out. He'd be detoxing in jail right now and the kid might be able to detox as well.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Did any of you armchair street tactical freaking mental giants think that dear old dad was just standing still and potting shots off? Is it not possible that his movements put the kid in the way of a shot that was being taken from a distance. All it takes is a few degrees of movement to swing the kid into the path of what a fraction of a second before was a good take down shot. In a fluid tactical situation like a real hot firefight things don't happen like a staged scene out of TV land and some of you really have no idea about that.
Crowmaw you really should go join a department and get a clue as you certainly don't have one from your posts. Find out what it really is like before you start dictating tactical operations from the safety of your living room chair.
The one person who had the absolute control to save that kids life was the father. This is another example of the good drugs do to individuals and their families. All he had to do was put the child down along with the weapon and walk out. He'd be detoxing in jail right now and the kid might be able to detox as well.
yet another person that gets it. Things go wrong 1 inch 1 less kt of wind and all of them would have been heros...
well except maybe the community.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Crowmaw you really should go join a department and get a clue as you certainly don't have one from your posts. Find out what it really is like before you start dictating tactical operations from the safety of your living room chair.
So you are telling me that the option of 'wait him out" was impossible...does not seem to take a tactical operations guru to figure that one out.
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Originally posted by crowMAW
So you are telling me that the option of 'wait him out" was impossible...does not seem to take a tactical operations guru to figure that one out.
Ummm YEA that's what we've been saying. That's exactly what they were doing for 2 1/2 hours before he came out guns blazing. Why don't you do yourself a favor and actually read the police report.
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This guy holds his child in front of him and shoots rounds at the cops and there is a "debate" on whether it's justified? Are you kidding me? Sorry I feel bad for the baby, but the criminal made that situation and is the only one responsible for it. As someone else said, those cops will live with that for the rest of their life. It's a fine line our law enforcement walks and we ask them to risk their lives for the betterment of our society, to even question them in a situation where they were fired upon is ridiculous. 1 baby versus the lives of how many officers? How many bystanders? It's a shame and a sad event but in no way are those officers to blame. They have little babies at home too.
to the men in blue
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Ummm YEA that's what we've been saying. That's exactly what they were doing for 2 1/2 hours before he came out guns blazing. Why don't you do yourself a favor and actually read the police report.
How long would you be willing to wait to save one of your kids, Gun? 15 min enough for you? Or would you be willing to wait days just on the possibility of saving your son's life?
BTW, how 'bout posting a link to the offical police report. Based on the LAPD press release (http://www.lapdonline.org/press_releases/news_view.php?id=41) it sounds like the man was contained in a cordoned-off area and the SWAT team pursued him into the building. The SWAT officer was wounded while entering the building in pursuit of Pena. I saw nothing about the use of non-leathal methods, such as tear gas, to subdue him. From the start the LAPD used deadly force even though there was a high risk of killing the hostage.
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Originally posted by crowMAW
How long would you be willing to wait to save one of your kids, Gun? 15 min enough for you? Or would you be willing to wait days just on the possibility of saving your son's life?
BTW, how 'bout posting a link to the offical police report. Based on the LAPD press release (http://www.lapdonline.org/press_releases/news_view.php?id=41) it sounds like the man was contained in a cordoned-off area and the SWAT team pursued him into the building. The SWAT officer was wounded while entering the building in pursuit of Pena. I saw nothing about the use of non-leathal methods, such as tear gas, to subdue him. From the start the LAPD used deadly force even though there was a high risk of killing the hostage.
well it looks like they tried for at least 2 1/2 hours before control was lost. I guessing your a tactical expert in the area and were on scene to be able to render such judgment.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
well it looks like they tried for at least 2 1/2 hours before control was lost. I guessing your a tactical expert in the area and were on scene to be able to render such judgment.
Where's that link to the offical police report?
And just reading the LAPD press release it looks like the SWAT team lost control of themselves. They opened fire as Pena appeared to be going for his weapon. He retreated into the building while firing back. The SWAT team pursued rather than retreating to safety to wait him out. The SWAT officer was shot in the shoulder while Pena was firing as he was fleeing and the officers were pursuing into the building.
I'm not a tactical expert, but I am an expert in decision management having taught the subject at a university as well as to professionals, including senior law enforcement officers (and I practice what I teach while mentoring my managers so that we make good decisions for our company and don't make decisions that lead us to an FEC investigation and jail). In this situation the LAPD needed to be thinking about mission, actions, expected outcomes, and consequences. What was their primary mission. Was it to: 1) save the hostage; or 2) neutralize the perp. If it was 2, then I would say that they were already going down the wrong path. #2 can be a secondary objective, but not the mission...otherwise, the outcome is exactly what happened; which we all agree was not optimal.
They also needed to think about the actions that would effectively acheive the mission. If the action they choose is for 11 of them to opened fire on the perp while he is holding the hostage in his arms, what expected outcome would they predict? Would it be that all their bullets would land perfectly in center mass of the perp? What consequences would be realized if the expected outcome is that some of those bullets would miss the perp? Would that endanger the mission of saving the hostage?
That's a lot of stuff to think about. But I would expect that cops that end up on the SWAT team can handle it. If not, they are the wrong sort to be working hostage situations.
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Crowmaw,
The decision to wait out or not depends on the negotiations. I doubt you were present to analyze or to give the benefit of your tactical and hostage negotiation expertise to the negotiator at the scene.
As to the rest of your comments. It's very easy to sit back and armchair quarterback from the easy chair in a safe secure "ivory tower" location without the added stress of a nutbag high on drugs and already obviously hostile as he opened fire on arriving officers. Clue for you, it's way different in the real world where things happen that you cannot control. Perhaps something like dear old dad telling the negotiator that he's through talking and he's going to kill the kid and himself as soon as he hangs up. Yep waiting would be real productive there. I'd just about put money that that was what happened.
If you had any experiance you would know that there won't be any link to a "police report" as it is going to be a situation that is litigated. As such, the complete reports including all suplementary reports made by all involved in the situation will not be released except through "discovery" on the court motion from the plaintiffs. All Officers involved will also have been instructed to refrain from comments to anyone outside of court and or deposition until the case is through litigation. Pretty standard even for non Law Enforcement.
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Just look at the pic of that kid.
i would rather die than that kid should die
young life is always more important than ur own adult life
no matter what
guess the swat team wanted to be home before 17:00
sigh
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad:
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Just look at the pic of that kid.
i would rather die than that kid should die
young life is always more important than ur own adult life
no matter what
guess the swat team wanted to be home before 17:00
sigh
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad:
I guess you just don't have firm grasp on how it is in the states.
If your world, it would be worth it if 5 or 6 cops died to keep that baby alive. Thats your view. Those officers have families too with kids or do you just think they dont matter? man its low to judge them for this. Picture yourself in the same situation and tell me you wouldnt want to go home to your wife/kids....idiot
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what i say ??
they should go home proud that day they survived.
some 19 months old baby is just unimportant.
She shouldnt have a criminal daddy its her fault .
idiot
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Yeah im glad i do not have an idea how its in the states.
Maybe in the future when everybody can walk around with a gun.
u never know.
(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/US/08/03/toddler.autopsy/story.girl.ap.jpg)
its a precious life something to be saved
prayers for her
damn im not religious
i have 1 kid with the similar age she is worth everything offcourse the main blame is on that father.
But gawd those cops should know how to deal with those situations.
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Huh? A hostage or inocents life is forfiet if they are used by a madman as a sheild?
I have stated that there is a fine line... this guy was shooting and endangering more and more people (not just cops) I think that everything should have been done to take him out before he injured or killed even more innocents. killing his child is trajic I hope that all possible care to make sure that didn't happen was taken..
Now for sandie...
"Yeah, it's tragic, but IMHO it's a whole helluva lot worse if someone's father or mother dies.
This isn't about remorse. It's about establishing blame. Some would blame the police. I sure as hell don't. The full blame belongs to the bellybutton clown that used his own child as a shield. He made that choice, not the police.
Same goes for Waco. Those clowns made that choice as well."
What a load of crap.. If anyone on this planet is truly innocent and full of potential it is a child... How we are as humans is defined by how we treat the innocent... the killing of a child is much worse than a father or mother. I don't blame the police unless it comes out they were careless...see above... As for waco... you got to be kidding? No one was in danger except the danger the government storm troopers created. The government stormed the house and then when they got blown away they killed everyone in the place including allmost 39 innocent children. At ruby ridge the same thing... the government caused the problem and then killed women and children for no reason. You make it sound like the people at ruby ridge and waco have the right to forfiet childrens lives... The lives are not theirs to forfiet... not their or the cops.
The only reason to take a chance with an innocents life is if other lives are in danger and I don't mean those who are hired on to take those risks.
lazs
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Laz,
The nutjobs at Waco had every oportunity to talk it out or if they were really determined to die in place, send their kids out. They were the only ones holding the kids in those buildings.
I'm not saying the Feds did it right, but I don't think the Feds are responsible for the "parents" lack of common sense for not getting the kids out or to a safe location so they could fight to the last breath to contest a warrant.
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Originally posted by lazs2
What a load of crap.. If anyone on this planet is truly innocent and full of potential it is a child... How we are as humans is defined by how we treat the innocent... the killing of a child is much worse than a father or mother.
I'm not talking about killing. I'm talking about death. No one depends on that innocent child.
It's all tragic no matter who dies, but as a father I know full well that my death would adversely affect my family in many ways that the death of one of my children could not.
So... if I have nutjob and his child on the left and a police officer with a family on the right and I have to pick one to die, I'm going with the former.
It's tragic when a child dies, no question... but I put more value in the lives of the parents than their children.
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i wouldnt wanna survive my kid.
they could do without me when it has to.
but that is another situation.
i enjoyed life had all my chances no way i have more right to live.
it really sounds ego trippin here.
They should have done everything to save the life of that kid.
like trying to calm down the situation and talk.
i doubt that.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
i wouldnt wanna survive my kid.
they could do without me when it has to.
but that is another situation.
i enjoyed life had all my chances no way i have more right to live.
it really sounds ego trippin here.
They should have done everything to save the life of that kid.
like trying to calm down the situation and talk.
i doubt that.
Try calming a situation down when a cocaine-frenzied perpetrator. Until then, I would probably hold comment until you are in situations as these police officers are...Mav was a cop, and I trust his comments on the situation.
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ofcourse he was flipped but he would need food or sleep in the end.
he was alone
i bet there us policeman who think the same.
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agree with bug... I don't want to survive my kids. Sandie... what are you talking about? are you putting a monetary value on human life? I don't care about that. I care about an innocent child more than an adult who has options.
mav... the people at waco were wrong... the storm troopers and the adults in the building. It matters not... the children were innocent and there was no need to escalate anything since the people inside were contained and neutralized and could hurt no one at that point. They could have been talked or waited out to save the children. The people at waco may have been religious nuts but they had committed no crime untill storm trooping ninjas tried to sneak up on em through the windows with no warning.
They committed no crime to deserve their treatment. Why did it even happen in the first place?
How would you guys explain ruby ridge tho?
lazs
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Originally posted by Maverick
The decision to wait out or not depends on the negotiations.
According to the LAPD, negociations were still ongoing when the SWAT team decided to pursue the perp into the building rather than retreating to safety and allow negociations to continue.
Originally posted by Maverick
Clue for you, it's way different in the real world where things happen that you cannot control.
Seems very easy to control whether or not you persue or not. It seems very easy to consider where your bullets may land. And if the cops, and especially the SWAT team, do not have the metal capacity to think about those things under stress or under fire, they need to find other work or training needs to be modified so that they can learn how. I am not trying to be mean about that...I'm just indicating that they are unsafe when their primary concern should be the public's safety.
Mav...I assume you are a LEO. Do you consider what is behind your target when you fire your weapon or do you just blindly fire and worry about the consequences later?
Let me ask you hypothetically...if I as a private citizen with a conceal/carry permit had been assaulted by Mr. Pena who was holding a pistol and his kid, but when I drew my weapon he fled. If I had an opportunity to retreat but instead pursued and shot and killed his kid while shooting at him, what charges would be filed against me? The prosecutor would have a field day with me asking why I chose to pursue rather than retreat when I had the opportunity. So if I as a private citizen would be held to the higher standard of having to think about the consequences of my actions, why would't officers who have more training than I?
Originally posted by Maverick
Perhaps something like dear old dad telling the negotiator that he's through talking and he's going to kill the kid and himself as soon as he hangs up. Yep waiting would be real productive there. I'd just about put money that that was what happened.
Leading to the same outcome...WTG! But what other outcome could the officers expect when 11 of them fired a total of 60 rounds at Pena and his hostage. Could they really expect that they would not have killed the hostage?
Originally posted by Maverick
If you had any experiance you would know that there won't be any link to a "police report" as it is going to be a situation that is litigated.
Actually I do, having sat on the side of the government at crimial trials and regulatory hearings many times. However, Gunslinger was intimating that he had read the report, so I was asking him to put it up.
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yep... sorta like janet reno saying she had to kill all those children to save em.
In my opinion... if the guy is endangering more lives with his behavior (not police lives) or you really think that he is gonna kill the hostages real quick like.... You can take some chances with the hostages life... but... unlike the sensitive liberals here... I feel a childs life is worth more than an adults.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
agree with bug... I don't want to survive my kids. Sandie... what are you talking about? are you putting a monetary value on human life? I don't care about that. I care about an innocent child more than an adult who has options.
I'm talking about dependence.
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looking at the pic of Sandy it really makes me upset.
Such a beauty of a cute baby.
She really didnt deserve an end like that.
I wish she still could be hugged and loved.
i hope there is some relief for her soul and her family.
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dependance? what the hell does that mean? Are we talking money here? allmost every adult parent has life insurance and such and a single parent can remarry.. kids all get SS from the parent..
But who cares? the money isn't the thing... A child is innocent and full of potential.. Like I said.. I don't want to survive my kidds I really don't know of any parent who does.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
dependance? what the hell does that mean? Are we talking money here? allmost every adult parent has life insurance and such and a single parent can remarry.. kids all get SS from the parent..
lazs
Yes, I'm talking about money. That is the only thing of value that a parent can provide to their child. :rolleyes:
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life i s just prio numbero uno.
i cannot provide life unfortunaly
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....and if they had waited even longer,and the father turned the gun on the child,the second guessers here would be screaming the police should have taken action sooner.
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sandie.. a child is innocent and full of potential... he is potentially worth more than the adult. If money is what you are worried about.
lazs
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Until the case goes through the courts there will likley be no reliable information out there. Until the info is released and the issue is tried in the courts things will be kept pretty closed up. I would consider any information to be extremely suspect until it gets to the courts given that litigation has already been threatened.
Until it is rsolved anything else is mere speculation. You super duper armchair tactical genius's keep on it. All it is is "hot air" that you're spreading as you were not there, not in the negotiations and certainly not in the decision loop. Don't let that stop your criticism of actions you have never been close to outside of a TV show.
I'll refuse to further feed your trolls in this issue.
Please note not once have I taken a stance on whether the Officers did the right OR wrong thing here. I can't as I wasn't there either. At least I won't castigate them for having the poor fortune of having to be there themselves and work in what was likely to be a no win situation.
I do know one simple thing that is not contested. The one person who could have stopped it all by himself and see to it no one was injured, including the child, was dear old dad. He had absolutely no legal, moral or rational jutification for what he did. I find it absolutely rediculous that so much criticism is leveled at the Police yet almost none to the person who used his own child as a hostage and shield. Pathetic actually.
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Ruby ridge, should make every American ashamed of the government.
Read up on it. It was a travesty.
I am not talking about on the nut job sites either, read up on it on http://www.crimelibrary.com.
Randy weaver won a huge settlement from the government over them murdering his wife. Yet not one ATF or FBI agent lost their jobs or went to jail.
Guess its ok for the government murder Americans as long as they are a bit on the fringe so the news media can make them look like nuts.
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mav... I have taken no stance on it either as I don't know the facts but... I believe the government should take every precaution to not harm children. That may include storming the place and taking a big chance.
It was uncalled for in ruby ridge and waco and Ohio state even. Still... In genereal.. I trust the government with firearms... so long as they trust me with em. The balance is delicate. Government becomes much less polite when they are the only ones armed.
lazs