Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: grmrpr on August 05, 2005, 03:41:08 PM
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Solution:
1. Set lethality of CV puffy ack to max.
2. Set accuracy on CV ack to very high.
3. Increase damage CV’s can withstand.
4. Disable the ability to drop bombs from anywhere except bomb sight.
5. Perk bombers!
6. Perk flights over the water.
7. Put 1940's porn art work in the cockpit of buffs to distract the bus drivers operating them. Heck the guys driving those things are probably that old any way.
8. Make the lethality of any round striking a buff the same as a hit from an 88mm round.
9. Give CV group the ability to create smoke screens.
10. Basically set up the MA with roughly the same odds of successfully sinking a CV from a high altitude bomber drop that was present in WWII. Hmm how many CV’s were sunk by high alt bombers in WWII?? A: ZERO
* Note Add to subject line- and no life 45k 4 hour sortie dweebs.
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Complete Hypocrite.
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hypocrisy:
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness.
If you're going to throw rocks at people, make sure you pick up the right rock.
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I am neither confirming nor denying that your simple statement may or may not be true and that I have never attacked a CV in such a fashion.
I will say that one exhibiting such behavior to exact revenge on some dweeb who was recently pawned and threw them self into a 5" gun to exact their own revenge may be justifiable. With that said I still refuse neither to confirm nor deny any hypocrisy on my part.
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Ok then. How would you go about killing a cv with bombers ?
hubsonfire, Im sure hes quite capable of defending himself. And I do know the meaning of hypocrite, thankyou for refreshing my memory.
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(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/f000001/f075712.jpg)
This is the result of an actual high alt bombing attempt in WWII. The ship easily turned to avoid the drop from alt.
Taken from http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/midway/midway.htm
The CV's turn too slowly in AH to make this an effective maneuver and the splash damage of eggs hitting the water in AH is not reflective of what really happens. In the real world water absorbs a huge amount of energy and very little is transferred to the ship. In AH a 1000lb egg can be dropped hundreds of feet away from the CV and significant damage is still assessed against the vessel. I am assuming that splash damage models are the same over water or land in AH. Someone correct me if I am mistaken.
To answer your question.. That is what dive bombers and torpedo planes are for.
Balance of power:
How many people in GV's or AC does it take to capture a field? Now how many people does it take to drop a CV?
GrmRpr
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Cv sinking easy -
1) Grab Lanc
2) Climb to 8k
3) Calibrate just before drop
4) Try and guess which way its gonna turn
5) Pull the trigger and let all 14k whistle down.
Was gonna tell you were to aim for (lead), but that makes it too easy :) (hint - aim ahead)
No need to divebomb.
Plus - Make CV impervious to strafing. Only rock and bombs should damage it.
I know in real life you could prob straf the deck and damage it, but AH doen't work that way.
Guys strafing cruiser main guns down is laughable.
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1 Ship length for every 10k of alt.
14k = 1.4 of ship length.
And you dont even have to guess too much which way it will turn. Splash damage model pretty much assures you of a kill. beside by the time you release the CV is pretty much indicating which way it will turn since it turns so poorly.
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Shhh, your giving away all our secrets lol.
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To make my piont clearer-
Look at the picture. In just over 1 and 1/2 boat lengths that cv has already changed over 45 degrees of direction to port. If the captain wanted to push it he could achieve 90 degrees of turn in that same distance. Point being it was easy to aviod bombs falling from high alt and the buff drivers knew they were dead if thier slow large butts flew into the puffy ack range.
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The fact that you argue aganst suicide dweebs then high alt bombers confuses me.
I do agree sinking cvs is too easy from high alts, but those of us who decide to give the cv a tad bit bigger survival chance by bombing from high alt, compared to suicide dweebs at 1k off the deck.
Making puffy ach heavier would cause more problems for fighter pilots. Theres already a thread saying it is too accurate.
Making cvs harder, more ordnance required to sink it, I agree with.
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I do no understand what part you’re not seeing.
My position is both the high alt and low alt killing of CV's are way to easy in this game.
As for puffy ack being more accurate it has long been by position that the accuracy of all ack should be just slightly lower than what the average gunnery of all human players is. Basically take the average gunnery score for all players take off say 10% and assign that accuracy value to AI guns. I would also make every single stationary gun at a field or CV man-able. When the gun was not occupied I would have the AI operate it so all guns that have not been destroyed will engage targets. That would also include shore batteries.
Or better yet each time a gun is spawned it runs a randomizer on it's own accuracy rating. It continues maintaining that rating until it is destroyed. When it pops up again it radomily determines its rating. The pool of ratings should be pulled from the accuracy rating of real players.
GrmRpr
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just have a high alt CAP over the CV.
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at least last night i tried with PT rockets and the 40mm about 50 times.... never got time to get torps in water, got killed too fast :rofl
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Ok then. How would you go about killing a cv with bombers ?
IF HTC would model the AP anti-ship bombs that were used instead of general purpose HE we have, I would do it with the Divebombers, which was their traditional role. If the Val, SBD, and Ju87 had their AP/SAP ship killers and it only took 1-2 to knock a CV out they would see more use.
The simple cure to 99% of the problems with buffs, while not stopping them from being used correctly is allow bombs to only be dropped from the bombardiers position. I dont see how even a dedicated Buff guy can claim that is not reasonable.
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Grits I agree with everything you said.
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Originally posted by Grits
The simple cure to 99% of the problems with buffs, while not stopping them from being used correctly is allow bombs to only be dropped from the bombardiers position. I dont see how even a dedicated Buff guy can claim that is not reasonable.
Spot on! After all, we got laser guided dumb bombs. It takes all of a couple seconds if you calibrate you before you drop. That way anything that changes (speed, alt) doesnt change much before the drop.
Only reason I see it happens is that people probably dont want to fly a bomber an hour to come over the target. Solution perhaps is that bombers get more perkies the farther from the target they strike them from....
oh yeah and something to spend those perks on...b29 b29 b29 lol
or tall boy bomb for lancs.
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i think maybe part of the problem is that cv's have no AI. i think many people point a boat in a direction and thats it. that is fine, but maybe some form of AI could be added to a CV, so that in the same way ack has a % of hitting an aircraft, then same percentage applied to the aircrafts bombs hitting.
just a thought. and agree, CV's far to easy to kill.
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Grmrpr, a near miss (I mean close enough to splash water on a ship)
will do a lot of damage to the ship. Sprung hull plates, damaged
frames and so on. In the 1920's, when Gen. Billy Mitchell was
trying to prove that an airplane could sink a Battleship, they found
that direct hits messed up the upper works of the ship and made
it useless as a combat platform, but they did not sink it. On the
second day of the test they tried near misses, the shock from the
explosions stove in the sides of the battleship and it sank in a
couple of minutes. A torpedo works this way too, it does not penetrate
the side of the target ship, it explodes on contact, outside the
hull. Or with a magnetic exploder, underneath the ship.
I'm going out to find a link for those tests, if I find it, I will post
it.
Mike
aka BTMe62
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As I recall from Damage Control School, it has something to do
with not being able to compress a liquid.
Mike
aka BTMe62
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Here a link.
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Air_power/mitchell_tests/AP14.htm (http://)
Mike
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I was a DC (Damage Controlman) in the USN and served on a carrier and once I got out of the service I was a Fireman at a Ship Yard fire dept. While that does not make me an explosive/damage expert I do understand what you are talking about. "Very Near" Misses do exactly what you are describing. Especially if they are close and detonate at or below keel level and the energy is transfered upward. Note I said "Near Miss".
Look at the Hiryu in the pict above. The Hiryu was 728' long. Look at the bombs impacting at or just less than 1 boat length away (242 yards). Even if you halved that distance away to 121 yards I can't envision the Hiryu taking much more damage than a few ruptered pipes...
Now if the impacts were 50 yards or less....
GrmRpr
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I agree with everything grm said
you put it on the mark
Smoke screens would be a good additon...
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Yes, I ment real close. Like the column of water from the explosion
falling back into the gun galleries along the flight deck.
Mike
aka BTMe62
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If smoke screens are possible without killing FR's worse than trees, than heck yeah I'm all for it.
However, it would do nothing to stop the low alt suicide buffs.
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I know strafing damage isn't the same on water as it is land, hence our old killing the port ack problem (thanks for fixing that for us guys:p ) However, I believe this is a "game" or something like that so things may seem "gamey" at times. If you want auto ack to have increased lethality call in whels and he'll obliterate a whole patches of bombers until a P47 comes in and bombs it from 20K then hits the water.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Ok then. How would you go about killing a cv with bombers ?
hubsonfire, Im sure hes quite capable of defending himself. And I do know the meaning of hypocrite, thankyou for refreshing my memory.
level bombing a CV from 10k is a whole lot easier than making 18 suicide runs to a CV.
Edit: OR sometimes Leviathn Runs squad missions where we all get into heavy La7's and run on the deck towards a CV. Sometimes we may do the same mission 10-20 times. :eek: I keep asking how come I am dying so much, but he says its for the good cause of the war effort. So I trust him.
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/176_1123418298_65-midway-flight.jpg)
http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?display=rednews/2005/05/20/build/local/65-midway-flight.inc
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We did a zillion B17 missions against the 4(?) Japanese cv's at Midway----nuthin. They were sunk by TBM's, etc.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Edit: OR sometimes Leviathn Runs squad missions where we all get into heavy La7's and run on the deck towards a CV. Sometimes we may do the same mission 10-20 times. :eek: I keep asking how come I am dying so much, but he says its for the good cause of the war effort. So I trust him.
LMAO! :lol
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The TBFs were out there, but I don't think they got a hit on a
carrier. The damage was done by the dive bombers.
Mike
aka BTMe62
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Quoted from bigsky's link...I think it is acurate for the MA as well...
"When you're desperate, you do what you can."
But also worth noting is the 6-foot-off-the-deck run was to avoid acks not drop bombs...not that historical accuracy has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with life in the MA.
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These are all great ideas and input. I think just about everyone would agree that killing or severelly damaging a CV is way too easy.
See below
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These are all great ideas and input. I think just about everyone would agree that killing or severelly damaging a CV is way too easy.
Maybe that's the way HT wants it? I'm not sure. One of the key "problems" with defending the CV from attack is the total lack of gun platforms.
The ships of WW2 had a ton more guns than what is currently avail on the CV group now.
There is NO Crusier or Battleship in the WW2 era that only had TWO 20mm guns to defend itself with ??
Maybe their to hard to model? Maybe it takes too much bandwidth? Maybe everyones just happy that there is just a few guns period? I don't know.
I do know that {IMO} the ships should have proper armament, if you up a set of Lanc's or 17's to go bomb the CV it doesn't limit how many bombs you can carry because your striking the CV ???
You get to take a full load, then you should get a "full load" of guns to defend with??
5-8 5" guns
8-10 quad mount 40mm AA guns {Bofors L56}
15-20 twin mount 40mm AA guns
20-40 20mm single AA guns
This is an example of the typical armament {not exact} that was used to deend against enemy air attack.
(http://www.usstexasbb35.com/WNUS_2cm-70_pic2.jpg)
(http://www.battleshipcove.org/Assets/Images%20-%20General/BB59/bb59-bofors.jpg)
(http://www.usswisconsin.org/Pictures/1950%20Pic/0021%2040's%205in%20guns.JPG)
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I kill CVs with a buff fairly often, but at least I try to be historical about it. I use a single Ju88, load it with 4x500kg bombs, and divebomb from 15k (using the brakes, of course). Go STRAIGHT down to avoid the CV's manned 5", aim for the very bow of the ship, drop when you 1st see the auto-ack tracer appear, and immediately pull out. You'll hit dead amidships. If the CV's taken any damage already, you'll almost always sink it. And if all 4 bombs are direct hits, sometimes you can sink a cherry CV this way. I almost always survive the ack doing this, but low fighters usually get me as I'm trying to egress.
That said, I do think something must be done about the ability to level-bomb CVs. The problem is the unresponsiveness of the ship with the current control method, or the total lack of response if nobody's driving the boat, combined with the huge damage radius of bombs. Hell, once I sank 2 DEs with 1 of those monster Stuka bombs dropped 1/2 way between them.
* To make a CV more controllable, instead of giving it map coordinates, actually let the player use his joystick in real time. And don't let him do ANYTHING ELSE while he's in control, to keep the controlling player from flying away, hiding the CV, or whatever. Put his POV on top of the bridge so he can see in all directions and up, and make him stay there as long as he's in control.
* To prevent unmanned CVs getting vulched, give them some auto evasion.
* To prevent the shotgun 14x1000lb thing, change the way blast damage is figured when bombs hit the water. Like REALLY reduce both its power and its radius.
The other issue is the low-level suicide buff run. I don't know how to approach this, because buffs really did this sort of thing quite often. However, they did skip-bombing. I'd really like to see bombs skip off the water (and even the ground) instead of always instantly exploding--it would be a nice skill to learn, so your bombs skipped into the target instead of bouncing over it, stopping short, etc. But how, at the same time, to stop the current low-alt formation shotgun (which is also the bane of airfields and GV armies)?
How about this? Have something that checks the alt of the bombing plane before it applies bomb damage. If the plane is below some alt limit, and the bombs were dropped by a formation (or the last survivor of a formation), then they're all duds. IOW, it would force players to take only a single buff on such missions. Then they'd have a much higher chance of dying before dropping instead of having 2 spare planes to jump into, and they couldn't do nearly as much damage because only 1 plane at most could drop bombs.