Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StarOfAfrica2 on August 05, 2005, 04:42:21 PM
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This is a local argument, but I've seen it in more than one state. Its just that it's hitting here now.
Hawai'i's Board of Education is considering lowering their academic standards because they increasingly cannot meet federal "No Child Left Behind" requirements. Hawai'i has long held some of the highest academic standards in the country. Nowadays though, children aren't passing the standardized state assessment test required to measure their education, resulting in fines for the school district and possibly having the feds come in and take over. The BOE is considering changing the way the test is scored, more in line with the national average tests instead of the more rigorous standards set here.
My question is this. They say its not a bad thing, because they are only lowering their standards to those of the SAT. IMO, they are letting their students down. Students here routinely score much higher on SAT standard tests than the Hawai'i Assessment test. To me it just seems like a "feel good" measure designed to keep the feds off their backs and make the kids feel better. You can call a moron a genius if you change the way you measure intelligence. That doesnt make the moron smart. As Abraham Lincoln once said, "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."
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Maybe the test is flawed.
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so long as we vote for democrats we will never have vouchers and continue to have the bloated and badly run monopoly on our future called the public school system.
lazs
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"No Kanackie left in Surf"
~Pearl Harbor Elementary '67-68~
~Ali Monu Middle High '69-70~
Yea I'm a Houalie...
Prejudiism really sux!
Mac
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Maybe the test is flawed.
O-kay, let's see:
State uses standardized testing.
Test scores are going down.
The test is obviously flawed.
Midnight, are you--by some chance--a member of any Teacher's Organization, or an academic of any kind?
Just askin', because that is almost an exact rendition of the standard NEA line.
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no he probably means that it's flawed because there isn't an ebonics version of it. or one written in the native languages of all who take it.
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the language of the nation is american english.
anything else distorts the fabric of 'NATION'. Commonality of cause, purpose, identity hinges on LANGUAGE. Anything less opens the door (wide) to enclave factionality. The folks in those enclaves do not view themseles as connected to or identify with the nation they live in... because there is no common language to bind them to the larger group.. the NATION in which they now live.
By sponsoring concessions for foriegn languages in our schools we're just hastening our own factional demise... the very thing that bound all the peoples of foriegn lands together in this nation, to become Americans was to learn the American Language, to become proficent in it, to identify themselves and their kids, PROUDLY, as Americans.
It's language!! The glue that bound all of us together to begin with.
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Star what I don't understand is first you say this:
Hawai'i has long held some of the highest academic standards in the country.
Then you mention this:
Nowadays though, children aren't passing the standardized state assessment test required to measure their education, resulting in fines for the school district and possibly having the feds come in and take over.
wich are completly polar opposites. My question is what happened? If the students were doing so well how come they are NOW being affected? Is this an anti-Bush/no child left behind thing?
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Originally posted by lazs2
so long as we vote for democrats we will never have vouchers and continue to have the bloated and badly run monopoly on our future called the public school system.
lazs
:lol You think school vouchers will stop that? What is to stop the dumbest gangbanger with a voucher from going to the same private school as your little Johnny? Better think that one thru.
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I dont know what the cause is. I cant find a decent study anywhere that suggests one. What I know is that before the NCLB act, Hawai'ian students scored much higher on SAT tests than the national average. When NCLB came into effect, Hawai'i's standard assessments were designed to hit a higher bar than the SAT standards, intentionally. They originally felt that the SAT standard wasnt really all that great, and if the local students were doing so much better already than the nation average, why not set the goal higher than that? For the last 6 years straight though, students have failed to get a high enough percentage of scores on the assessment to meet federal standards. As a result, they are talking about lowering their standards to those of the SAT, so their kids can look better on paper.
Personally I think all standardized tests are a load of hooey. But the Govt. loves them. It gives them numbers to throw out at people during press conferences, and to print in newspapers.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
the language of the nation is american english.
anything else distorts the fabric of 'NATION'. Commonality of cause, purpose, identity hinges on LANGUAGE. Anything less opens the door (wide) to enclave factionality. The folks in those enclaves do not view themseles as connected to or identify with the nation they live in... because there is no common language to bind them to the larger group.. the NATION in which they now live.
By sponsoring concessions for foriegn languages in our schools we're just hastening our own factional demise... the very thing that bound all the peoples of foriegn lands together in this nation, to become Americans was to learn the American Language, to become proficent in it, to identify themselves and their kids, PROUDLY, as Americans.
It's language!! The glue that bound all of us together to begin with.
Hang, this has nothing to do with language. Most of the kids speak better english than I do. Certainly better than their parents. Hawai'i is one of the most racially diverse states in America. There are more languages spoken here than I can keep track of. Nobody is teaching these kids in any language but English though. If you ever want to see how the American "Melting Pot" SHOULD work, come visit. You'd be surprised how well everyone gets along here, and how little fuss there is over integration. Nobody has lost their ethnic roots, because they are too new for that. But everyone is American, or wants to be. I never hear anyone here say "Korean-American" or "African-American" or any other hyphenated form of American. PC really isnt done here, except for the circles where those of us from the mainland US bring it.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
I dont know what the cause is. I cant find a decent study anywhere that suggests one. What I know is that before the NCLB act, Hawai'ian students scored much higher on SAT tests than the national average. When NCLB came into effect, Hawai'i's standard assessments were designed to hit a higher bar than the SAT standards, intentionally. They originally felt that the SAT standard wasnt really all that great, and if the local students were doing so much better already than the nation average, why not set the goal higher than that? For the last 6 years straight though, students have failed to get a high enough percentage of scores on the assessment to meet federal standards. As a result, they are talking about lowering their standards to those of the SAT, so their kids can look better on paper.
Personally I think all standardized tests are a load of hooey. But the Govt. loves them. It gives them numbers to throw out at people during press conferences, and to print in newspapers.
well while I don't agree with standardized tests in their entirety it does hold schools and school districts accountable. For years we've thrown BILLIONS of dollars at education to try and "fix" it and it hasn't worked. I could site a few personal examples were alot these federal dollars were never spent on educating kids but hiring and expanding school administration (yea bigger beaurocracy fixes everything).
Personally like any kind of taxpayer funded aid I want to know if it is working. If not find something that does. For this you have to have some kind of yardstick to measure up.
I completly disagree with lowering standards to make happy feel good feelings. I recently read an article about hte UK that thankfully for them failed were they wanted to make kids feel better about failing by getting rid of "F"s and replacing them with something totally stupid.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Hang, this has nothing to do with language. Most of the kids speak better english than I do. Certainly better than their parents. Hawai'i is one of the most racially diverse states in America. There are more languages spoken here than I can keep track of. Nobody is teaching these kids in any language but English though. If you ever want to see how the American "Melting Pot" SHOULD work, come visit. You'd be surprised how well everyone gets along here, and how little fuss there is over integration. Nobody has lost their ethnic roots, because they are too new for that. But everyone is American, or wants to be. I never hear anyone here say "Korean-American" or "African-American" or any other hyphenated form of American. PC really isnt done here, except for the circles where those of us from the mainland US bring it.
Awsome Star.. and good to hear. The 'balkinization' has started here on the mainland. :( Very bad, IMHO.
To what do attribute the drop in academic scoring? changes in the test, or changes in the classrooms?
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Originally posted by rpm
:lol You think school vouchers will stop that? What is to stop the dumbest gangbanger with a voucher from going to the same private school as your little Johnny? Better think that one thru.
Not that I agree with Laz on this at all but I have found one minor flaw in your scenario. The private school doesn't HAVE to accept the little cretin like the public school does.
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Just my personal opinion, the entire education system in our country needs to be overhauled, from sea to shining sea. The first problem is the education of the teachers themselves. Its been a vicious circle. Teachers were notoriously underpaid in general. Back in the 80s many large school districts began noticing severe teacher shortages. In the 90s it got worse, and I know many cities started shopping overseas for teachers in poorer countries that wanted to come here. They would get them work visas, get them certified as teachers in whatever state, and put them to work. Then they began trying to recruit people who had retired from other jobs, getting them to enroll in very basic courses to get certified, giving them "credits" for real life experience (such as business management for example) that could sub for some of the requirements to be certified. Now, due to strikes and other tactics by teachers unions that have raised the pay and benefits of even starting teachers to the breaking point in many cases for public school districts, coupled with lower standards for certification, we have an entire educational system filled with teachers that cant cut it. They dont really WANT to be teachers, they were recruited to the job in college with the promise of good pay and mandatory retirement benefits. Half-prettythang teachers make for half-prettythang students.
Now, we have a problem at school. But the biggest problem is the attitude this country has gotten towards education in general. While everyone agrees they want their kids to be smart, no one is willing to do any work to help. The parents expect the school to do it all (until you get to something controversial like sex ed or something), and no one wants to get involved. Thats a generalization I know, but I've seen it. I went to college to be a teacher, and I bailed. I could give noble reasons but the truth is its alot of work, and I didnt have the mentality, or the work ethic to be a good one. At least I didnt think so then. Course today I'd probably be fired in a heartbeat if I tried to be a teacher lol. But my ex was a teacher. I saw day in and day out the way the parents would dump their kids. Heaven forbid one of them should get sick. Oh, what, I have to give up my soaps and come get little Suzy? But you have a nurse dont you? (Really, this happened. More than once.) The more people I meet in this world, the more I appreciate the ones who still believe family = responsibility, and the more I get PO'd at the average population. The old saying "Education starts at home" really is true. I was never a great student, but I passed. Because my parents made me do the work. They checked up on me. They forced me to sit at the table and asked me questions out of my textbooks. They made sure if I had finished a chapter in math on mulitplication that I could multiply. They discussed my report cards (and cussed too :) ) and they never once complained that it was a burden. And they did that for my brothers too. And funny enough, so did most of the other parents of the kids I knew in school.
I have to say, I really am ashamed of my generation. While the last one is still running things, we are too busy arguing over what shade of black the pot and kettle are, and are ignoring that both are overflowing and dinner is burning. Instead of remembering what our parents taught us about how to weave things together in life, we are arguing over the merits of various nationalities of wool and which one is better suited to what, when all we need is a basic blanket. Perfection is overrated. I remember one of my neighbors growing up was a farmer, and I always loved riding on and driving the tractors. It always amazed me how the rows could be so straight across an entire field. There were little variations here and there, but mostly it was striaght. I asked him once how you keep the rows straight when you are plowing or discing a field. He said its easy, you just have to keep your eye on the other end of the field to stay straight. If you only look directly in front of you, whatever direction you go looks straight because you can no longer see where you are going. Sometimes I think "common sense" just isnt common anymore. Now its rubbing off on OUR kids.
Wow. That was a rant. Sorry. Its just that to me, lowering the bar to make things look better is selling out. Selling out and the kids are the ones being shortchanged by the deal. As long as politicians run school districts, and we put more stock in numbers generated by a test that doesnt fairly test true intelligence OR knowledge, we are going to be running things based on irrellevant information. Its like instrument flying a plane when the instruments give you data based on nothing real. How long do you think you'll stay in the air that way?
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Just one other thing I want to note as well. Have any of you ever been on a school board? They decide what books to buy in many cases. Not all, it depends on how things are setup from state to state. I've actually seen (twice) school boards that voted to buy USED books secondhand from another school district that was getting new ones. To save money. In one case, the other school's representative actually told the board that they were replacing the textbooks because they had problems with them being filled with errors. The board bought them anyway. The money they saved went to the basketball program for new uniforms. Politics has no place in education. To me, the two are mutually exclusive.
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Originally posted by rshubert
O-kay, let's see:
State uses standardized testing.
Test scores are going down.
The test is obviously flawed.
Midnight, are you--by some chance--a member of any Teacher's Organization, or an academic of any kind?
Just askin', because that is almost an exact rendition of the standard NEA line.
An academic? How dare you accuse me of being ... ewwwwww educated!!!! We all know what that can lead to don't we? My god man... people would be thinking for themselves and and and not listening it Limbaugh!!!
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People listen to him? I thought he was just trying for publicity to sell his ties.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Not that I agree with Laz on this at all but I have found one minor flaw in your scenario. The private school doesn't HAVE to accept the little cretin like the public school does.
If he has a voucher that says he can attend any school he wants to, yes they do. That's the whole problem with this voucher concept. People think they will magically rid all their problems just because they can go to a different school. They forget that so can the kids that are causing the problems.
The schools can't refuse to accept them, they have a voucher from the state that says they can attend the school of their choice. Suddenly, the schools that were filled with lilly white rich kids and had excellent academic ratings will be flooded with kids of all cultures just like the public schools are. Those "perfect" schools will become exactly the same as the public schools are now.
The root of the evil is not the school, it's the parents that don't give a **** and let their kids run wild. If they have no discipline at home, how in the world do you expect them to be disciplined at school?
Throwing money at the problem won't fix it. I remember the poor urban school in Paterson, New Jersey that was a hellhole. Principal Joe Clark, came in and confronted the problems head-on. Suddenly, academic scores improved, kids started taking pride in their school and it became an excellent school.
It didn't take any vouchers to fix the problem, it took hard work.
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Originally posted by lazs2
so long as we vote for democrats we will never have vouchers and continue to have the bloated and badly run monopoly on our future called the public school system.
lazs
Calculate the percent of your income that goes to education based on the fact that the government spends what 5% of the budget on education. So lets say you pay 20k in taxes, which is a lot. Your only paying 1k for your child to be in school. Now how many of you only have 1 kid? Voucher my ass. Private school is so expensive the voucher for your 1k aint gonna even touch their lunch expenses.
public schools teach kids about the real world. Private school brings out an elitist attitude in kids. Seen it way too many times. Better off teaching them yourself.
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In Oregon, the state (thru my taxes) doles out about $10,000 per annum per child to educate our youth. Schools get 400 X $10K if they have 400 students. That is a defacto voucher system now, it just doesn't allow the parent to choose what is best for his kid.
Charter schools can be set up that get $8K per kid from the state and they have done a better job on 80% the cost than the traditional public school.
A voucher system would not be much different from the charter system we have already have in place except a parent could take the 10K already allotted to his kid and enroll his kid in any school that makes the grade.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
In Oregon, the state (thru my taxes) doles out about $10,000 per annum per child to educate our youth. Schools get 400 X $10K if they have 400 students. That is a defacto voucher system now, it just doesn't allow the parent to choose what is best for his kid.
Charter schools can be set up that get $8K per kid from the state and they have done a better job on 80% the cost than the traditional public school.
A voucher system would not be much different from the charter system we have already have in place except a parent could take the 10K already allotted to his kid and enroll his kid in any school that makes the grade.
But how does this affect the fact that 90% pay half the taxes? Has anyone got any info on how the rich affect the state tax level?
Either way damn 10k sounds like a lot. I am sure it not near that down in this fine state of georgia . lol 49th out 50th on test scores. haha you suck south carolina :) lamo
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the bad speelling was on porpoise :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
so long as we vote for democrats we will never have vouchers and continue to have the bloated and badly run monopoly on our future called the public school system.
lazs
Have you ever had a thought that didn't blame the democrats?
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I dont think he does. :) But as a Democrat myself...........he's usually right. Personally, I still think the whole voucher thing could be fixed to where it works and addresses the concerns of people like lazs, but if not oh well. Because he was right on one thing. All it takes to fix what we have is hard work. Thats why no one wants to fix it. We've become lazy as a general rule in this country, and dont want to do the work. Until enough of us get behind it to make the politicians listen, it wont happen. I dont care if they are Democrat, Republican, or Martian.
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Children that cannot learn need to be put in classes where they will accel, not trying to shove them into a class where they will not do anything but get in trouble and invariably fail. There are schools for kids who have "problems" but I don't think enough are shoved into these 2 hour "prep schools". Leave a child behind, how hard are their parents trying to get them on track? Seems like the first thing these kids at my school are taught is how to be a slacker.
When you put in disruptive kids in classes with kids who are trying to learn, they ultimately affect the class, either by the teacher needing to consistently clear up issues or because the child is distracting another student. No child left behind is BS. Any kid who tries to learn in a class with a few that don't want to learn they are all being left behind. I can see half of my school eventually saying "you want fries with that?"
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Originally posted by nirvana
Children that cannot learn need to be put in classes where they will accel, not trying to shove them into a class where they will not do anything but get in trouble and invariably fail. There are schools for kids who have "problems" but I don't think enough are shoved into these 2 hour "prep schools". Leave a child behind, how hard are their parents trying to get them on track? Seems like the first thing these kids at my school are taught is how to be a slacker.
When you put in disruptive kids in classes with kids who are trying to learn, they ultimately affect the class, either by the teacher needing to consistently clear up issues or because the child is distracting another student. No child left behind is BS. Any kid who tries to learn in a class with a few that don't want to learn they are all being left behind. I can see half of my school eventually saying "you want fries with that?"
no child left behind has less to do with keeping bad kids in calss but more of keeping schools accountable for the federal money we give them. Remember this is your money as well.
Why pay billions of dollars in education money that doesn't go to educating children?
Recently we had a "thing" out in victorville were the school district administrator and the school board was authorizing HUGE bonuses and raises for the head guy. After 4 years he would have an average salery of $1.2 MILLION up from $225K. This was all arranged in a closed door session.
Meanwhile teachers and parents had to have bake sales and fundraisers in order to make sure classrooms had luxury items like pens paper pencils chalk and what not.
The public finally got wind of it and demanded accountability and the guys salery got axed to $220k anual.
Keep in mind this isn't a huge school district at all. Alot of federal dollars are going towards administration and not towards the students themselves without any accountablility what so ever. This is were NCLB helps.
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Pretty good stuff there Star, but it isnt the education system that needs changing.
It is society's way of thinking as a whole.
You are right, our generation sucks. Every person my age that I know that has children doesnt do half, no, a quarter of what my parents did for me.
Too busy watching reality tv to teach your kid how to read?..no worries, the TV will do it. If not, then the people at the daycare will teach them (cause owning that extra SUV is more important that staying home to actually raise your kids.)
Oh and don't worry about making dinner. That comes in a foil bag or a box or in the form of a happy meal.
What I'm trying to say is that the real problem isnt education. It is everyone after our parent's generation that is perfectly happy to let "the next guy/girl" do their job. Everyone starts to do this, and guess what? Nothing gets done.
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Hmm... interesting thoughts on vouchers.... first... that it is not entireley the democrats fault that we don't have em... this is wrong... it is entirely their fault as they are as tied to the NEA as the republicans are to the NRA.
Next... that the private vocher schools could accept or not children based on... on what? they would have to accept everyone...
Next... that if they did accept a gangbanger he would bring the public school problem to the private schools.... again, wrong... he could be throw out if he did not perform or was a disipline problem.. studied have shown that even the worse inner city kids go better in private schools.
lastly... that the only monies that go to school is a thousand dollars per student? more like 10k per student... you pay weather you have kids or not... we all pay... even lotto players pay... we all have a vested interest in seeing our kids do better.
lazs