Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: narsus on March 29, 2001, 10:50:00 AM
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Well I think I can best clasify myself as agnostic (not sure what to believe). I am United Methodist by baptism, and havent gone to church in years. But I try to lead a good life, dont steal, kill, hate. I like science was a geology major in college (I know what a rock is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
My main problem....well problem is not the word...My main concern is what religion is say the correct one. If heaven does exist and I'd like to think so, what religion do i follow or is just leading a good a life as i can suffice. I in nature always must ask why whether science or religion, I cannot in good conscience follow something blindly I need proof. One book doesn't justify proof for me whether science or religion I need more sources.
Do I believe in Jesus Christ well yes, he did exist and I comprehend his teachings, but do I believe he was imaculately concepted or the son of god I dont know, I wasn't there. Do I think that faith is important? of course I do.
With geology I can actually go to the san andreas fault and see the crack, been in CA during an earthquake the earth moves. I can go to hawaii and see an active volcano enlarging and island. i can look through a telescope and see the rings of saturn.
I cant say hey god mind coming down here to answer some questions.
well that's enough for now does anyone else feel the way I do? Or am I just insane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
narsus
[This message has been edited by narsus (edited 03-29-2001).]
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Christ was never immaculately conceived.
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Virgin Mary?
narsus
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I believe in the Calvin and Hobbs theory of religion: You had better try them all that way all your bases are covered.
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Milo
3./JG2
"Speed is the cushion of sloppiness"
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Originally posted by Dinger:
Christ was never immaculately conceived.
Wow, you are so certain (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Too bad you will find out your wrong...too late. Unless of coarse you change your mind in time.
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the Messenger isn't as important as the Message
problem is ppl distort the Message for their own personal gain
Eagler
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Ammo, knowing Dinger, he doesn't pretend to know things that he really doesn't know. If he made that statement, he probably is debating whether the language in the Bible actually claims that Christ was immaculately conceived. I'm not certain but I'm betting he will reply to that effect. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Err... narsus had it right on the second try.
Christ was never immaculately conceived. Immaculate Conception is when, at the moment the rational soul is infused into a body created by carnal union, God does not apply to that soul the stain of Original Sin.
Christ, if you are a believer, was not created by carnal union; the Annunciation and Virgin Birth are different phenomena from the Immaculate Conception.
The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic Doctrine concerning the conception of the Virgin Mary in the womb of Anne.
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OK Where's my $20? And no I didn't call him. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dinger
Ah, ok that makes sense as I said it's been a while since I've been to church. Thanks for the clarification.
narsus
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Hey... I have been having a crises of faith for awhile. I was raised a hell and brimstone Bapist. I havent been to church for years but I truely feel that there are some large "holes" in the religion I was brought up with. The concept of being condemed to hell for eternity for simply not believing in Jesus is abit far off to me.
I mean... we are like machines to a certian extent. We are programed from birth up by various factors. These factors "wire" our brain to a certian extent. They cause us to think a certain way... Now if you've been taught from birth that The mighty UOOOGLY is the da Man with da Plan then your gonna say... Jesus ..who the heck is that? But according to the teaching of Uooogly youve been a good Oompa and have treated others well, bla bla bla. Now... your gonna goto hell. This seems abit arrogent to me.
Heck..Christanity has how many different domantions? They all say the other is abit wacked... they are assured the others might goto hell to. Oh and some pedophile who suddenly found God is now going to heaven when say... Ghandie is not?
Batdog
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As far as religious/spiritual/metaphysical arguments go, I've never seen the nature of reality explained more succinctly than in the following:
"I am not, but the Universe is my Self"
(Shit-t'ou, 700-790)
Logical analysis of this intuition
By Wei Wu Wei
Objects are only known as the result of reactions of the senses of sentient beings to a variety of stimuli.
These stimuli appear to derive from sources external to the reagent apparatus, but there is no evidence of this apart from the reagent apparatus itself.
Objects, therefore, are only a surmise, for they have no demonstrable existence apart from the subject that cognizes them.
Since that subject itself is not sensorially cognizable except as an object, subject also is only a surmise.
Since the factual existence of neither subject nor object can be demonstrated, existence is no more than a conceptual assumption, which, metaphysically, is inacceptable.
There is, therefore, no valid evidence for the existence of a world external to the consciousness of sentient beings, which external world is therefore seen to be nothing but the cognisers of it, that is - sentient beings themselves.
But there can be no factual evidence for the existence of sentient beings, either as subject or as object, who therefore are merely a conceptual assumption on the part of the consciousness in which they are cognized.
It follows that 'consciousness' also can only be a conceptual assumption without demonstrable existence.
What, then, can this assumption of consciousness denote? This question can only be answered in metaphysical terms, according to which consciousness may be regarded as the manifested aspect of the unmanifested or non-manifestation, which is the nearest it seems possible to go towards expressing in a concept that which by definition is inconceivable.
Why should this be so? It must be so because conceptuality cannot have conceptuality for source, but only the non-conceptual, because that which objectively conceives must necessarily spring from the objectively non-existent, the manifested from non manifestation, for conceptuality cannot conceive or objectify itself - as an eye cannot see itself as an object.
Therefore consciousness can be described as pure non-conceptuality, which is 'pure' because unstained either by the conceptual or the non-conceptual, which implies that there is a total absence of both positive and negative conceptuality.
Not existing as an object, even conceptual, there can be no 'it', there is no 'thing' to bear a name, no subject is possible where no object is, and total absence of being is inevitably implied.
All we can say about this which we are, which to us must be objectified as 'it' in order that we may speak of it at all, is to regard 'it' as the noumenon of phenomena, but, since neither of these exists objectively, phenomenally regarded it may be understood as the ultimate absence from which all presence comes to appear.
But consciousness, or 'Mind', does not project the phenomenal universe: 'it' IS the phenomenal universe which is manifested as its self.
Metaphysics, relying on intuition or direct perception, says no more than this, and points out that no word, be it the Absolute, the Logos, God, or Tao, can be other than a concept which, as such, has no factual validity whatsoever.
This-Which-Is, then, which cannot be subject or object, which cannot be named or thought, and the realization of which is the ultimate awakening, can only be indicated in such a phrase as that quoted above:
"I am not, but the apparent universe is my Self."
Hope this clears this whole issue up. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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It is too easy to quote scripture here so I have to do it.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the father, but by me.
I read this as saying that no man will enter heaven unless he is a Christian. God the father can not even be approached unless the seeking individual goes through the Son, Jesus Christ. Believe in him or not, that is the decision every individual must make. Also, unless you live a Christian life you will not make it to heaven.
Of course all of this is null and void unless you believe the Bible. But be warned, you can not believe only a portion of the Bible. It is God`s word. Believe it all or believe none of it. To only believe a portion of it is like saying God was only correct in some of what he is telling us. That simply isn`t true IMHO
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Unless you're Jewish, and then it is the case.
And parts can be described in a variety of ways, as can interpretation.
You can say, "I believe all the BIble" and yet hold:
The Old Law of the Hebrew Bible is supplanted by the New Testament.
Often the BIble will use figurative or poetic language, that is not meant to be taken literally; so some parts you believe in a metaphorical or anagogical sense. You expect me to believe 6 days of creation, and that Jesus' point was nothing more than vineyard workers should be paid by the day, not hour?
Some passages suffer from corruptions, and you have to make a choice concerning which manuscript tradition to use.
The apocryphal books have little value as testaments to the truth.
and so on.
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Blur:
That's very nice, but i prefer God's explanation:
"I am what i am".
Cabby
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Book of Nirfur (aka the Babble):
StSanta 3:17
"And there I was, being bored in nothingness. So I created some silly things and let them evolve a bit, according to some pretty harsh and crude rules I imagined could bring me a few nanoseconds of amusement. I was wrong, of course, but I'm wrong all the time.
To my surprise, some of these things started walking on two legs, despite this not being in my original plan. So, I made another god. Called him God, because, well, since he was one. Sort of. I was wrong about this creation as well. Oh well, at least I got to do an enemy for this dude, and Satan has turned out quite ok.
Now these silly things think the god (sort of) God created it all. He's merely a figment of my imagination I've made into a spiritual manifestation of a crude joke involving virgins, shaved sheep and bearded old pitiful creatures. And beer.
This species is truly pitiful. Think I'll do some aliens and hear them whine about their space ships being overmodelled when I order them to invade earth. We'll see. I'll spare the StSantaists though, as I need a ruling class for the universe. Someone must look after it when I take a nap."
Though scripture would be good in this discussion. It is good to remind people that there are other religions out there, even freakier than their own (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<disclaimer: if this post offends your religious beliefs, you're probably a very serious person. I'm a very silly person. I used to be a very serious person, but being silly is much more fun. Eat a pizza, dance with some girls and DON'T PANIC. The answer is 42.>
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StSanta. Nirfur is the God Of All Things Yellow And Fluffy And He Who Decides What Is Yellow And Fluffy.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Btw; nice post blur (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Metaphysics; gotta hate it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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LOL! Santa, you should really keep on writing stuff like that for the book of dweeb. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Babble.. rofl!
"Lord, please protect me from your followers!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Besides, every time I think about the whole of creation I remember that theory that only I exist and everything else is a figment of my imagination, I create my own reality. Dammit, so far its been quite annoying (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The only problem is that the Holy Bible was written by men, not God. This has been proven numerous times in several theologic-historic studies.
I see Bible as a survival manual and ethical code for the time it was written.. Many of its guidelines are simply outdated today and seem ridiculous. However, to people of the time it was meant to, it was a lifesaver.
Kind of like reading the survival manual of some army footsoldiers 1800 a.d.. Back then it made sense, now it's a matter of laughter.
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The bible is a book..not even a good book, it has stories that teach lessons and tries to instill values....nothing more.
is there a god..I dont care, i can place blind faith on anything especally some omnipotent all knowing being that noone has ever seen.
Im sure the whole jesus story had true roots but has been imbeleshed to the point of its currint unbelieveable state.
I believe more in the chupacabra(sp) or bigfoot or Nessy than god.
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Quote:
" Back then it made sense, now it's a matter of laughter."
Why? Because YOU say so?? Now THAT's funny....
Cabby
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Cabby you are quick on making personal statements..
Judge not or thou shall be judged.
Your post is against the lessons of your holy book.
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The Bible is pretty good. It's almost as gory as Icelandic sagaes in some parts.
Acutally it's like a Hollywood film - lots of action and then some kind of moral lesson.
If the brits would have written it, it'd be full of stupid things like the maximum speed of laden swallows (African and otherwise) and of people slapping each other with rubber chickens.
Now that would be a book I could take seriously (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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IMHO
Religion would be a natural occurrence in all life forms that move far enough along the Evolutionary Line.
As a creature evolves and its brain capacity increases there is a point at which the creature (developing a frontal lobe) would starts to have a brain capable of cognizant memory as well as the ability to think to the future.
This is a milestone in the evolutionary line as it would cause (as our first written accounts of religious history prove) the first types of religions to crop up. Those being the pagan religions which of course is the worship of "things" like thunder, lighting, the sun, (trees the Druids) the list goes on and on of pagan Religions and the objects and or natural occurrences that they worshipped.
This not to say that the pagan type religions were the very first religions by any means. The very first religions of course are lost to written history as they appeared long before our ancestors had the ability to leave written accounts.
My Theory is that when he was able to think well enough with that tiny, just starting to develop, frontal lobe he needed to have some means to explain things that he couldn't explain. Things he didn't have the ability to even consider before he evolved far enough along this line. I give you:
10,000 Years In The Life of a creature starting to develop a modern day brain condensed into a Rainy Day. Most likely he didn't have much of a vocabulary but for these prepossess he does.
Humm that hot bright round thing comes up every morning. Humm never though about it before but for some reason now it bothers me.
And why the hell does it rain or snow, and when the lighting really gets mad it strikes down trees with fire, hell I don't even know what fire is. Wow this is scary being able to see the world with my new frontal lobe.
So scary that when I see lighting I fall to my knees in fear. Many run, many drop to the ground in fear, some who run are struck down by the lighting. They must have made that lighting stuff angry by not falling to their knees. Wow maybe we should do more for this lighting thing. Maybe just maybe things that are powerful and I have no control over are Gods.
Yeah that's it, and so is rain and fire and anything else thats in my life and very powerful and I can't explain. And for the first time in my race's life it bothers me!!. Well, you get the point. That was how it all started many will agree. Next point:
For thousands of years there was no Unified God Theory Religions at all! Just people worshiping things they feared and or loved. Human nature at its best.
As man/woman began to retain knowledge from generation to generation i.e.: ( the ability to read and write) they become more and more sophisticated in there views of the world and themselves. This most likely lead to the Unified God Theory most follow today. How did that happen?
Now we jump another 10,000 years into the future of this day in the life guy and he is no longer living in caves but in a city. He has had written words now for many generations and can read about what people thought about before his time. He sees that he is not like all the other creatures on the planet, He is special he thinks. Just look at what his race has accomplished, the pyramids at Gaza the cites of Rome. He/she thinks, "could it be that we are the chosen race on this planet?" Could it be that we are a part of this God thing. He thinks:
Why do we need to worship and sacrifice to the sun or rain or earth God's?
As he developed defenses against the things he couldn't explain before, and starts to manipulate the things his ancestors worshipped i.e. use of fire, ability to farm the land and herd animals he realized he could do things he was told only the God could do. Like,
Only the Gods can make the fruits we eat grow. No, I can farm and choose what I want to grow now. Only the God's can make the rain come so the fruits we eat can grow. No now I can irrigate the land where I grow my food. Only the hunting God can bring the animals we hunt to our range. No, now I can herd and breed the animals I eat. Again you see where I'm going.
As man lost his fear of the world and natures power he also lost the need to sacrifice and worship to the old Gods he had created out of fear. He began to become self absorbed. He saw that man was supreme on this planet and that maybe just maybe he was part of the Gods, or at least part of God's will. He thought, perhaps we are even made in his image. Yeah that's it, in the beginning God created man in his own image. Hell it all make sense to me how this kind of rumor could get started. Talk about a Toll.
So in closing I would just like to say that religion and God's are a natural part of the growing pains for any creature that has evolved far enough along in time to invent them and or the need for them.
Perhaps some day we will grow out of it!
Then again I could be wrong,
Damned WrW
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Er... um... pagans don't worship trees.
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Quote:
"As man lost his fear of the world and natures power "
You mean foolish, ignorant men, don't you?? Ever been in a hurricane?? Or fly a light aircraft around thunderstorms?? "Nature's" power is infinitely greater than anything mankind can produce. Whenever mankind gets a little full of himself, "Nature" has a way of evening the score.....
Quote:
"Er... um... pagans don't worship trees."
They don't??? What the hell is it that New Age tree-huggers worship then??
Cabby
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 03-31-2001).]
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If you read carefully you will see I mentioned the Druids happen to worship trees which makes their faith a Pagan religion. Any non unified God Religion is a Pagan type Religion. So pagans were never a religious sect but the name given to any people who's faith worshiped objects or more then one God. This word "pagan" was of course brought about by those who believed in a unified God.
Gee its no fun when you have to explain it!
Baaaa
WrW
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They worship ENYA Cabby. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
oh and btw, a foot soldier's manual in 1800 ad IS a matter of laughter today cabby.
Are you reading the whole post? or are you skim-reading :
"I see Bible as a survival manual and ethical code for the time it was written.. *skim*
"Back then it made sense, now it's a matter of laughter." *end skim, flame reply otw*
? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
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Originally posted by Damned Wrongway:
So pagans were never a religious sect but the name given to any people who's faith worshiped objects or more then one God.
well I believe someone is in error;
pagan n A person having no religious beliefs. adj. Heathen, irreligious.
polytheism n the belief that there are many gods.
Gee its no fun when you have to explain it!
Baaaa
WrW
Yep (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It was explained to me that a pagan was anyone who disagreed with what YOU believe in.
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OhNooo
smile awhile
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I believe in God, but since coming to college i have completely stopped being a christian, and only go to church when im at home with my family.
I really don't think you can doubt that there must have been some type of being that set things up in the beginning, the world is too perfect for some type of intelligence to have not been involved.
A great example is water. Its one of the *very* few liquids whos solid form is less dense than its liquid, which enables freshwater life all around the world, or fish would not be able to survive the winter. Kinda perfect how it works out, huh.
Theres a million more examples too. How could life start without some spark? I just cant believe that life coudl come out of nothingness without something miraculous.
Do i believe in the story of genesis? No. Do i believe in darwinism? Yes. But i also believe that first spark, was made by the hand of God.
I have some silly friends who are ultra religious, and wont drink alcohol and pray all the time and stuff. They get alot out of it so I guess its ok for them, after all religion is the opiate of the masses (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I cant think of a good conclusion so goodnight.
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Never been the God-fearing kinda guy. Stopped going to church when I was 12 because the priest was a dick. Back before then I'd take some Gi Joes to church and play with them while waiting for the preacher to shut his can and let us leave. Last time I had to go to church I was staying at my Aunt and Uncle's place. I was 14 then, had a portable tape player with Guns 'n' Roses in it I carried everywhere. My Aunt sprung the whole deal on me just after I got outa the crapper. "We're going to church, you better get dressed".....<jaw hits floor>
My two cousins and I went to the Bible-Thumper class for NitWits while the adults went and got blasted with the preacher. At least that's what I think happened; either that or they got brain-washed. <shrug> Matt gave me his spare Bible and told me not to blast G'n'R in the room. So I turned the volume down and used the wonderous ear-piece headphones. All I saw was the leader of this deal point at me. Some old bald guy. I popped one ear piece out and asked the proverbial "Huh? Had my music going and didn't hear you". At which point this ancient fart tried to confiscate my tape player. After a few minutes of discussing the matter he said I could keep it if I read a few passages. No problem!!
I whipped out the label from the tape case and proceeded to read of the Glorious lyrics from Axl Rose. Starting with Welcome to the Jungle, of course. I got about half way through Night Train when he finally got the hint and told me to wait outside. Not a problem!! I listened to my tape for about an hour before I saw the mindless masses going inside the Big Room. Naturally I got stuck next to some crusty old couple who worshipped the preacher's feet. On my other side was my Uncle, who knew too well of my hatred for church. See, we got into it once about the Bible. Him saying it was mostly right with a few goofs. Me saying it was a load of horse toejam that worked perfectly well as a fire starter. After that we agreed to disagree. He had his beliefs, I had mine; twisted beyond words, but I had 'em! He whispered that I could listen to either of my tapes as long as I kept the volume low.
So I waited out 2 hours of a preacher damning me to Hell listening to the screaming melody of Slash and his Les Paul guitar. Haven't been to church since, or my Aunt and Uncle's place either. The entire bible bit I don't like; this version, that version. I sum it up thusly: "Non gratum anun rodentum". Not worth a rat's ass. You believe what you want, I'll do the same, and we won't get into a real nasty fuss over the entire thing. My g/f back when I was 16 tried getting me into a church group. Ended that relationship real fast. Not because I didn't like her, but because I simply believe God is fictional. Made up by some wise-ass in need of a quick buck.
To each their own.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :
Pagan \Pa"gan\, a. [L. paganus of or pertaining to the country, pagan. See Pagan, n.]
Of or pertaining to pagans; relating to the worship or the worshipers of false goods; heathen; idolatrous, as, pagan tribes or superstitions.
From WordNet (r) 1.6 :
pagan
adj : not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam [syn: heathen, heathenish]
n : a person who does not acknowledge your God [syn: heathen, gentile, infidel]
(emphasis mine)
Someone lacking a belief in deities would be an atheist. Interestingly enough, there are some religious atheists. Certain buddhists lack a belief in gods.
But then again, dictionaries can only be trusted to a certain degree. The inaccuracy with which some define word slike evolution and atheism for instance are two examples. I do believe this definition of pagan is reasonably close to how it is currently used.
And all the rites of pagan honor paid. --Dryden.
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I'm a pagan myself, although I do prefer to be called a Heathen as I am of northern european ancestry. I believe as most who call themselves pagan nowadays do, that the Universe is God, or Goddess if you prefer, and that each of us is a part of the Universe and therefore you and I are God. As you and I are gods and goddesses we are infinately powerful, after all we ARE the universe. Furthermore I and my fellow pagans were never kicked out of the Garden. We are still living in it although we treat it badly at times. All of your holidays are Pagan holidays. Ever hear of easter in the Bible. Of course you have although she was called Ashtaroth, you also may have heard her called Ishtar " They pronounced it Easter back then" Sunrise services? Who were they waiting for to come up back then? It was Ishtar or Ashtaroth she was called Venus Later and Innana before and much later Eostre by the Germanic tribes but she was the same Goddess.
Also this Easter as you reflect on the Dead and risen God, contemplate this. He is only the latest of a long line of Sacrificed Gods that include: Damuzi Tammuz Adonis Osiris Dionysus and Mithra. And as you drink the blood and eat the flesh at communion remember this. You are performing the Exact same ritual as the Greeks did in worshipping Dionysus, the god of the vine who was torn apart and eaten by his preistess's the maeneds.
My goddess is all around me is in the stars is in you and is in me Thou Art God, or Goddess. Drink Deep of the Waters of Life.
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Aces of America
Fly to Live, Live to fly
Do or Die
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Just plain ol' deism with some flowery language
<poke>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"