Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DA98 on March 29, 2001, 05:14:00 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/03/29/schroeder.bush/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/03/29/schroeder.bush/index.html)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
What do you think about it?
[This message has been edited by DA98 (edited 03-29-2001).]
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I think the theory that humans are creating global warming is bunk. A correlation and a causal relationship are two different things.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-29-2001).]
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The planet went through climate changes long before we got here, it will continue to long after we are gone.
I did think this was funny though: While stressing it was too soon to discuss "tactics to punish the United States,"
Wallstroem said she will go to Washington next week with an EU delegation to
seek clarification of the Bush administration's position.
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Bush has more balls than I thought.
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yes mietla, and he's thinking with them. Guess the almighty green paper is more important than the air he will leave for his grandchildren. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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"The planet went through climate changes long before we got here, it will continue to long after we are gone. "
While I'll happily agree that Global Warming is not necesarrily caused by pollution, doesnt change the fact that pollution isnt good.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
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If the sun eventually does that supernova thing, will that cause global warming too?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-29-2001).]
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If they can't predict the weather day after tomorrow accurately, how the heck can ya believe them over a longer period of time????
Global warming is a political tactic to undermine capitalism!! Nothing more, nothing less.
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The USA again think (or is it only Mr. Bush) they are the world and what they do doesnt effect others.
I really hope this egoistic view will soon fall back on them.
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Your average sized volcanic eruption creates more air pollution (hazardous
particle /chemical emmision) then the world as a whole has created since the begining of this century.
Of course pollution is not good, but global warming is a junk theory. It is based on a period of less than 100 years of recording, an amount of time that is only an instant, of an instant, of an instant of the earth's geological cycle.
Perhaps when the earth leaves the present warming trend the theory might be valid, but the climate is still warming from a cold period during the 1400's (a mini-ice age if you will) that the global warming advocates are reluctant to present.
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Dear American Captain's of Industry,
I am pleased to announce that with immediate effect, you are now free to emit whatever you want, providing that the end result is a profit. Feel free to emit as many particulates as you want, heavy metals, PCBs, Phenols, high BOD/COD chemicals, C02, nitrous oxides, sulphur oxides.
Our position is clear: refuse any restriction relating to climate change, and open the door to the flouting of any restriction of emissions.
Acid rain doesn't happen in this administration.
Yours with respect,
Mr. George Bush
CEO, United States of America
PS. I respectfully advise you to relocate some of your more 'sensitive' operations to third world nations, until our agenda has reached fruition. I am informed that there is still plenty of real-estate in the Bhopal area for development.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hm, I understood that the changes we've ahd in the last few decades have been unmatched in history.
Weathern patter and so forht can be studied by drilling deep into the ice caps, and there hasn't been such a quick warmup as the one we're currently experiencing.
There was a new report released recently that showed a stronger correlation between greenhouse gasses and global warming that previously thought. I'd have to look it up, so don't bug me about it til i do :9.
At any rate, it's sad when the environment gets to take a step back for big business, especially since there was some sort of frame agreement, with other nations trying hard to do their part. I ain't a treehugger by any rate, but do believe that we CAN limit our emissions without losing profits, by just being a bit smarter.
Don't like this Bush decision.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Not even going to get into the environmental side of the debate, that one's obvious. But more importantly it gives an indication of how much Bush's word has value for him: It's only been a few weeks since he stated that he would respect the Kyoto treaty and now he withdraws his promise as easily as he made it.
Point: This kinda makes clear that the man that so many people depend on for leadership and integrity (his words) can't be trusted in anything he says. Sad isn't it....
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Thud1/Bies
Bring the Hurricane (MKIIC) to AH! (together with the Invader!)
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I didn't vote for Bush, but I did respect him. With this most recent broken promise, my respect for him is running dry. And what's up with the Bush Administration meeting a self-proclaimed Chechen 'foreign minister'?? Chechnya is a part of Russia, like Florida is a part of the USA. We've got no right sticking our nose in Russia's business.
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Double Idiot effect ?
It's his nickname here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Heard this joke about the "nuclear" mallet ?
G.W.Bush :"I've understand it's the code is my birthday but where did they put the 13 key ? on this keyboard ?"
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Originally posted by Naudet:
The USA again think (or is it only Mr. Bush) they are the world and what they do doesnt effect others.
I really hope this egoistic view will soon fall back on them.
We are the world, economically & militarily. Watch the world market as OUR stock market dumps. We had eight years of environmental paranoid kooks running the show. Look at California for the result. Time for a change.
Eagler
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Kinda like "Live now, Pay later" mentality.
Thought in this case it's our childrens whos going to suffer.
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Dear Europeans,
Before posting any global warming nonsense, tell us why you are polluting the earth with massive burning of animal carcasses???
Just perhaps you have your own mess that is spreading that you need to address before you run around pointing fingers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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"The USA again think (or is it only Mr. Bush) they are the world and what they do doesnt effect others."
Naudet:
Please do not equate the thinking of most Americans with someone who did not win the popular vote of the nation.
Thanks,
Mk
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1776, wouldn't want to dispel any illusions, but:
The UK has a foot and mouth epidemic, because it let dried meat in from another country (Far East in this case). It's not the fault of the UK's farmers or the UK itself.
Foot and mouth disease is a global problem, a bit like the global warming 'nonsense' you refer to.
By the way, for Eagler's information, that's global as in outside the US borders.
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Originally posted by Mk10 225th:
"The USA again think (or is it only Mr. Bush) they are the world and what they do doesnt effect others."
Naudet:
Please do not equate the thinking of most Americans with someone who did not win the popular vote of the nation.
Thanks,
Mk
that's debatable from this angle (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/US_election_race/flash/0,5543,394350,00.html (http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/US_election_race/flash/0,5543,394350,00.html)
Eagler
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Originally posted by Naudet:
The USA again think (or is it only Mr. Bush) they are the world and what they do doesnt effect others.
I really hope this egoistic view will soon fall back on them.
Anybody can criticise any perceived wrong. In fact as an american I am gratefull for any constructive criticism/suggestions from foreigners.
But being a german it is very stupid of you, Naudet, to refer to history and use the word again. Your country does not have a good record over the last hundred years, including the air pollution - I am sure those death camps did not have filters on the smokestacks.
miko
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Originally posted by leonid:
Chechnya is a part of Russia, like Florida is a part of the USA. We've got no right sticking our nose in Russia's business.
They are a different nation, different religion and they were conquered, not joined. Also, Chechnya is a republic. Putin can talk to Florida governor if he wants to.
miko
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Republicans, are you a bit worried about these quick reversals of promises/decisions we've seen Bush do since he became president, or do you consider it a standard thing amongst your leaders (including democrats)?
I think part of what made Bush I lose the next election was his failure to keep the promises he made. The "no new taxes" probably bugged a good deal of people. So that's the background of this question.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Republicans, are you a bit worried about these quick reversals of promises/decisions we've seen Bush do since he became president, or do you consider it a standard thing amongst your leaders (including democrats)?
I think part of what made Bush I lose the next election was his failure to keep the promises he made. The "no new taxes" probably bugged a good deal of people. So that's the background of this question.
StSanta
You realize that Bush Sr had to raise taxes due to the spending Democrats in the House and Senate, it was a win, win for them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bush Jr is doing just fine in my book...
Where's ole Al goron these days ?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
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Who's AlGore, where's AlGore??? Just another leftist fallen by the way side. It was a close call that last election!!
Now the US has someone who can set things back on the right road. He can clean up the Clinton ressession, get the role of the US on the correct track and stifle our stupid obsession for Socialism!!
GW is the right man at the right time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Please refresh my memory, Isn't CO2 the same stuff that is thrown up by volcanoes by a megaton (gigaton?) and easily solveable in the ocean water to be consumed by primitive flora (algae?), eaten in turn by microscopic plankton to be drowned and deposited as a sediment on the ocean floor never to bother us again?
miko
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Miko, yes.
And that was a cheap shot on Naudet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Eagler, you pickle. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You may not believe this, but as I hit "Submit Reply", I thought to myself, "Something tells me Eagler will come up with some data somewhere that says that Jr. won the popular vote."
Don't you ever change, not one little bit! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mk
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hehe Mk
was going to add up all the %'s but didn't have time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
you stay the same too. diversity makes the world go round
Eagler
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Originally posted by funked:
And that was a cheap shot on Naudet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
America did it's share of screwups. But when someone just mentions in passing that it did an evil thing again as usual, common knowlege, without any specifics, he better be a God's angel or something.
I likely know and could tell more bad things about America then Naudet. Same about many other countries. Maybe because I know history.
For it's size and power America was much less pesky then many other countries. Even if we were stupid to elect GWB to a position of a president, remind me which nation democratically elected A. Hitler?
Screwups happen occasionally. Using the word "again" in such a broad context assumes that we are evil people by nature. That whatever the problem, we a presumed guilty because of our past history. Well, there is nothing terrible in our history. Most of the times americans were made fools of when trying to help someone. Yes, americans are quite evil and stupid. Just like any other nation.
That kind of language was natural in pre-90s Soviet Union where we had our own version of history and of America. May be it is natural from an Iraqi who knows no better. Not on this board.
People like Naudet should remember that while there are many ignorant dolts posting politics in this forum, there aren't many of ignorant dolts among those who read it.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-30-2001).]
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Originally posted by Eagler:
Where's ole Al goron these days ?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Don't joke about it. It was too close call for comfort. By the next election gorons will increase in number due to natural procreation rate and their leaders will make sure they punch the right holes. Better think up some really complicated ballots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
miko
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No, Miko.
Firstly, consider the effect of British fossil fuel burning in the 70's and 80's. When you burn fossil fuels, as well as producing particulates, CO2 etc, you produce Sulphur oxides. This dissolves in water to form an acidic solution.
This fell as rain on large parts of Scandinavia (ask Santa), killing trees before leaching into the lakes and rendering them sterile of life. Every part of the eco-system was hit, from small microbes to the fish. A bit of a disaster if you happened to be Norwegian, Swedish etc.
But hey, it happened outside our country's borders, so why should we give a damn?
Therefore one reason for avoiding large releases of such gases, is to avoid such marine pollution.
Many of you are against limiting the air emissions of industry? I'm assuming this is due to the fact that there is still some debate as to the actual causes of global warming.
So where do you stand on water or land releases? Many harmful substances have no upper limit set, partly because there is contradicting evidense as to their lethality or potential to damage life.
Based on that rationale, are you suggesting that it is now appropiate to release anything you like - if the methods to control it our damaging to 'American industry and American workers'? For instance, the methods used to remove heavy metals form industrial effluents are very expensive. Should we all now just let them flow into the sea, because it would improve profits?
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hug a tree, buy candles, shut off your air conditioning (runs year round here), trade your car for a bike, etc ... NO Thanks.
Until an acceptable replacement energy source (nuclear?) comes along we are stuck with the old fossil fuels. This has been discussed here in depth already so I won't rehash but to say the U.S. needs to produce their own so we can tell the Saudis to go hump a camel.
Eagler
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Everyone are touting like the Kyoto treaty was about stopping all use of phossile fuels..
Wake up, the treaty was about reducing pollution, not stopping the use completely!
Like, its better to turn the car off when you go to mcdonalds instead of leaving it running outside.. The largest hit would be to big industry who would be forced to find out ways to reduce / filter CO2 emissions..
The gasoline prices would sure take a hit also, but the price for gallon is ridiculously low at the moment. I thought you were supposed to be the greatest nation on earth, now youre whining that you cant afford to buy normal price gas for your Dodge? hehehehehe..
Sounds funny and overreacting to me.
Bush reversed his word because the tycoons who financed his campaign told him to. He's a puppet of the hard industry. $ makes the world go round..
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Re :global warming - the green house effect
Look at venus it's atmosphere is made up (naturally) of what we are putting into are atmosphere through pollution.
P.S. Yes the planet has gone through massive climate change but not recently and why would we want to manufacture a climate change so we could flood holland?
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You euros cant really complain too bad about pullution being an "american" thing (how arrogant) anymore, how much vaporized cow you people put up into the atmosphere so far?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Pollution has its toll in the global warming as well as natural causes.
Imagine if nuclear power would never been revealed and we would still be using coal and other fossil fuels to get electricity.
We would probably have alot more pollution globally.
Global warming isn't only thing that pollution does, theres alot other things as well.
Trees, specially evergreen trees doesnt like of pollution.
Water is also highly reactive on pollution.
Do you wan't to drink pollution or clear water?
Do you wan't to swim in an acid or clear water?
Do you wan't to see a forrest with nothing but some trunks or a green forrest?
If you let people do whatever they wan't in a capitalist country, there for sure are some who does hasty things for the money, which overall isn't good for health of people.
Capitalist countries problem usually is money, greed person can make alot bad without restrictions just for those extra bucks he gets.
...those are not rare types.
So, some restrictions are good to be.
I do partly believe in global warming by pollution.
Now it is still good time to limit pollution and find ways to reduce it, than do it later.
I would rather choose now with less cost than in the future with high cost.
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Pollution has its toll in the global warming as well as natural causes.
Imagine if nuclear power would never been revealed and we would still be using coal and other fossil fuels to get electricity.
We would probably have alot more pollution globally.
Global warming isn't only thing that pollution does, theres alot other things as well.
Trees, specially evergreen trees doesnt like of pollution.
Water is also highly reactive on pollution.
Do you wan't to drink pollution or clear water?
Do you wan't to swim in an acid or clear water?
Do you wan't to see a forrest with nothing but some trunks or a green forrest?
If you let people do whatever they wan't in a capitalist country, there for sure are some who does hasty things for the money, which overall isn't good for health of people.
Capitalist countries problem usually is money, greed person can make alot bad without restrictions just for those extra bucks he gets.
...those are not rare types.
So, some restrictions are good to be.
I do partly believe in global warming by pollution.
Now it is still good time to limit pollution and find ways to reduce it, than do it later.
I would rather choose now with less cost than in the future with high cost.
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Ya,just as I said the voice of the extreme left regarding global warming is the undermining of Capitalism!! Nothing more,nothing less!!
THERE IS NO GLOBAL WARMING!!! FACT,PERIOD!!!
Don't fall for the lefts nonsense. What proof is there that global warming is happening. Records have only been kept for 100 years or so. Comapre that to the length of time the earth has been around......besides it's arrogent to think mankind can affect anything that has been designed by a God for mankind's benefit.
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 03-31-2001).]
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I can't believe you truly mean what you write, 1776. To be frank, only a fool would believe your last statement.
Are you saying that man can in no way destroy his environment through industrial process, simply because 'God' made the environment in the first place?
Perhaps I should quit my job then. What's the point of the plant I work for spending 5 million pounds this year on measures to reduce water releases? I bow down to your superior (divinely received) knowledge. Monday morning I'll tell the group environmental manager that we can dump as much BOD/COD material into the river, because it doesn't actually kill fish - because 'God' wouldn't allow such a terrible thing to happen!
Lets dump all those PCBs into the river too, because god would not allow them to gender-bend aquatic life - how could he allow that?
By your reasoning Chernobel doesn't even exist. How could god allow that?
If we relied on your 'god' to solve the problems, I wonder what the world would look like.
It would be a wasteland. But at least it would be a divine wasteland.
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My kind of sarcasm, Dowding.
RULE BRITANNIA!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And yes, large parts of forests were killed in Sweden, Lakes were polluted to such an extent that fish died. the government has spent millions trying to clean up what other countries have done.
So, it's a global issue, as pollution doesn't care about fictious landscape borders.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 03-31-2001).]
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I believe the USA produces over 20% of the worlds pollution (the BBC's figures) surely its only fair they take a long term view and cut back a little rather than just protect the intrests of heavy industry which incidentally backed president bush's election campaign.
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By the way i don't think i was excplicit about Venus, despite being futher away from the sun than mercury it has chemicals in it's atmosphere that produce a global warming effect which makes it's surface temperature hotter than mercury's. Is that not evidence of the greenhouse effect? Does take a massive leap of imagination to see if we put similar gasses in our atmosphere the same will happen?
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Your arrogance is profound!!! You are very correct in your statements (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Mankind has stewardship over the earth by divine order!!
Do you really think God would create a being that would have the power to destroy the earth?? If your answer is yes then demonstrate how you can destroy the earth through global warming???
You can't.
Once again this global warming jazz is just a way for the leftist and Socialists to undermine Capitalism. It's so simple to understand when you accept the fact that extremist want to dictate your way of life.
The end result is that mankind needs to be exterminated in order to retain the pristine nature these extremists desire,course they are to stay alive as they know better then you or I!!!!
Environmentalism has become the home of leftist extremists. It's a powerful tool for them because how can anyone be against clean water and clean air. Be aware of environmentalism(the religion) it will destroy your current way of life and if these extremist have there way you will prolly be scheduled for extermination in the end (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by 1776:
THERE IS NO GLOBAL WARMING!!! FACT,PERIOD!!!
Don't fall for the lefts nonsense. What proof is there that global warming is happening. Records have only been kept for 100 years or so. Comapre that to the length of time the earth has been around......besides it's arrogent to think mankind can affect anything that has been designed by a God for mankind's benefit.
Dude, get a clue. Drilling in the Ice caps has given the Scientists information on the atmospheric conditions wich were present since millions of years ago. MILLIONS of years ago. Understood?
The fact is that NEVER in earth history has been such a fast overheating of the atmosphere as there has been last 25 years, this is a FACT and is proven by the Ice drillings.
NOw think why last 25 years have produced so much overheating, and now think why does the antarctica have a big hole on the Ozone cap over it.
Can't be the human toxic emmissions of course. And less can be the USA wich only produces 20% of them. Of course, not.
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Originally posted by 1776:
Do you really think God would create a being that would have the power to destroy the earth??
I will answer you with a little joke.
This was this priest in a little town wich suffers a severe flood because heavy rains.
the going gets very rough, that water is getting higher and higher, and the priest starts praying to God to send him some help.
While he is praying, a little boat comes to the church, now flooded up to chest level. The man on the boat says "Hey father, come aboard I'll rescue you". The priest asnwers "no, son, God will provide me with the means to get out of this danger". So the boat goes and the priest keeps on praying.
The waters get higher and higher and the Priest climbs over the Altar. He is praying to God to save him, when another boat comes by, with another man who says "hey father, come aboard and I'll rescue you". The priest answers "no, son, God will provide me with the means to get out of this danger". So the boat also goes away and the priest keeps on praying.
The waters are now really high, and the Priest climbs to the church roof. he is about to get drowned ,still praying, when another boat comes by "Father, come aboard!!! the situation is critical!!!".
The faithful priest answers "son...I have faith on God and His ways. He will provide me with the ways to save my life, I am praying him with Faith and I know He will save me from this danger".
So, the boat goes away...the priest still praying.
But the water rises even more and the priest dies.
The priest goes to heaven and calls for God to answer him a question. God appears in front of him...and the priest, quite pissed off, asks:
"Lord, oh, Why did You let me die while I was praying non-stop for You to save my life?".
And God answers:
"dude, gimme a break. I sent three boats to save your ass,you refused to get on board of all of them, and you still complain??"
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This is the same. We are warned that if we keep this way this planet is going to hell, literally.
Of course, Bush knows that as he will pray a lot to God, the planet will be saved with him not having to reduce US toxic emmisions. how true he is.
We dont have to do anything,of course, we dont have to move a hair... God will do it for us.
lol. You are so sad......................
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-31-2001).]
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Heaven forbid, not more CO2. In the time you posted this you could have planted 4 trees.
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Is there proof that temperatures are rising? Yes.
Is there proof that CO2 concentration is increasing? Probably.
Is there proof that the CO2 increase is causing the temperature increase? None at all. Only unproven theories and models. And some models show the opposite - that there are mechanisms whereby increased CO2 concentration can cause a decrease in temperature.
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Does anyone else besides me remember when global cooling was going to destroy the earth? I think it was in the late '60s or early 70's that this theory was "the theory of the destruction of us all!!!" All of science was up in arms regarding global cooling, ice age was just around the corner. Sheets of ice 3 miles thick would cover North America!!! What a joke, and people flocked like sheep to this idea too, heheeeeeee.
Now the latest fad is global warming,come on, pleeeeeeez!!!
Ted Dansen,a known environmentalist expert, stated before Congress that we only had 10 years to do something about global warming.
I think he made this profound statement in the late '80's. Hmmmmm, we're still here, I wonder where he got that idea of only 10 years left?
Ya, there is no global warming. Period.
Only extremist who wish to change human nature and change our current way of living expound this new drivel in the name of environmentalism(religion). They have just as much creditability as the global cooling crowd.
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1776, you ain't gonna change your mind, I know, but consider this: (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You say 'God' would not create a being with the power to destroy the Earth.
In the '80s if the USSR and NATO had launched all there nuclear weapons at each other, the Earth could have been sterilised several times over. WE DO HAVE THE POWER TO DESTROY THE EARTH.
How would you survive in a nuclear winter? Would 'God' stop all those ionising, cancer causing particles from entering your body?
Like Santa says, pollution is a global issue that does not respect political borders.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-01-2001).]
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1776, obviously you're very afraid of left wing extremists but don't you think that right wing extremists are just as dangerous and narrow minded?
By the way the Kyoto treaty wasn't going to change your lifestyle at all, it just contained restrictions for heavy industries thus forcing them to innovate so that they could meet the new allowed pollution standards.
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Thud1/Bies
Bring the Hurricane (MKIIC) to AH! (together with the Invader!)
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I believe the treaty would only restrict the USA.
Geez, I wonder why we haven't had a nuclear war?? It prolly isn't in the design of things, think about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 04-01-2001).]
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Funked :
Do you suggest we continue to pump carbon dioxide, methane,nitrous oxide and man-made gases such as chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs), perfluorocarbons (PFCs), and sulfur hexafluoride (SF6)into the atmosphere to see if global warming due to a greenhouse effect is just a theory?
Out of genuine curiosity what have you seen makes you think a higher proportion of these gasses in our atmosphere will not produce some sort of greenhouse effect i.e some sort of raise in global temperature as it seems to me the theories aren't just pissing in the wind and even if they were do you think it is wise to change the composition of our atmosphere?
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1776 :
I believe are opinions are just to different to even begin to argue. Not a slam just i think it would be futile, each to their own etc.
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Here's a question for ya. Just what do the environmentalist really want,no electricity, no burning of anything cep what nature burns,no manufacturing, no travel of anykind, no modern conveniences???
At what point do we say this isn't gonna work?
What is more important, your current way of life or just shut everything down? When will the environmentalist be happy???
I contend they won't be happy til they dictate your life!! Sorry I can't participate, can you?
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 04-01-2001).]
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 04-01-2001).]
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Originally posted by 1776:
Here's a question for ya. Just what do the environmentalist really want,no electricity, no burning of anything cep what nature burns,no manufacturing, no travel of anykind, no modern conveniences???
This is not a new idea. Mao and Pol Pot made a pretty good first step in a right direction.
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I love technology and creature comfort but i think it is prudent to look after our enviroment because we do have the capability to detroy it as such i think we should have targets for reducing CO2 emissions etc.
The truth is people, industry will just do things the cheapest way so if pouring toxic waste into the nearest river is allowed people will do it (and have done it) hence i believe restrictions should apply.
Like i said i think you and i won't be able to persuade each other so i will leave it at that.
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Man, don't build up straw men.
We're talking heavy industries here. And, if they put just a WEE bit of effort in it, they can reduce their emissions by 20%.
It was done here, it wasn't very costly.
We're not talking anti technology, or progress, or living in a dark hut in the woods to save the environment.
Straw men arguments suck, but are luckily very easy to spot.
So, with that in mind, let's continue (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bush lied. He is a liar. Just like Clinton. Maybe even worse, because his lies might affect me.
<waits for his catch>
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Clinton is a convicted lier($90,000.00 worth) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I say let's shut down Europe,no industry,nothing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Candles for light and fire for heat. Ya!!! would be a nice test (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
How's that sound??
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 04-01-2001).]
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Now, this is rather an interesting discussion. Ok... lemme propose a scenario.
*DISCLAIMER: THIS SCENARIO IS NOT INTENDED TO DISCREDIT ANYONE'S BELIEFS, NOR IS IT TO BE TAKEN AS AN EXAMPLE OF MY PARTICULAR VIEWS ON FAITH, ETC.* (Clear?)
Anyway, for the sake of argument, let's just assume that there is no God, ok 1776? Now what happens? Our disability to destroy the Earth goes right out the window, don't it? Now, I know that this may not be a valid point to you, as you may view the existence of God as given, not open to speculation. However, others here are not sure, and others don't believe in anything at all. Does the fact that you disagree make them wrong? Does the fact that they are wrong in your eyes mean that they are indeed, actually incorrect?
*END SCENARIO*
(Warning: Complaint about Republicans/Right wingers) I get the impression from many of you that you feel that the rest of us all need to be corrected, because you disagree.
There is solid evidence pointing to global warming being caused by humans. I haven't seen anyone provide solid evidence that it isn't. Sorry, but giving God as your evidence just doesn't fly.
Also, for the record, on our "indestructable earth":
The Everglades
The North Atlantic
Exxon Valdez, resulting wildlife deaths
Los Angelos, New York, Mexico City, London, Beijing, all with some of the worst air pollution ON THE PLANET.
Many lakes and ponds in Scandinavian countries are now UNINHABITABLE to life of ANY KIND, except the hardiest of bacterias
Manatees? What are manatees? I've never seen a manatee - have you?
Ditto for the dodo. Fortunately, there are still some sea cows left...
Panda bears? Don't be silly; those are fairy tales! What? They aren't? Your're kidding!
Passenger pigeon!? HA! Don't be silly!
The list goes on, and on, and on. Over three quarters of the world's rainforests are GONE. I think I'll let someone else pick up from here. Or not. I think the point is made.
-Ispar
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You all are so good at making lists!!! <S>
Now just what do you think we should do about these problems??? I have as yet to get an answer to this question!!!!!
Sea cows and manatees are the same thing. I have been in the water with them at Crystal River Fl (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) They are very gentle mammals (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Destroying the Earth, huh? We may or may not be on the road to killing off various species of plants and animals and damaging the ozone layer and polluting the water and killing ourselves, but that's a far cry from actually destroying the Earth. The Earth seems to have done pretty well for itself through all the time since it's formation, even through some real bad toejam, and yet it's still here, alive as ever. If we're really going to focus on the true destruction of the Earth, we should all roll up our sleeves and put our best efforts into it, 'cause it ain't gonna be easy!
SOB
COPEADOPE "Citizens Of Planet Earth Advocating the Destruction Of Planet Earth"
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killing the earth? naw wont happen, we will kill ourselves off way before that if global warming is real-
i think when global warming gets obvious we will start dealing with it. it is highly supported but could easily be attributed to natural causes as well so its hard to say.
at any rate the sun will engulf us within about 5 billion years. it isn't big enough to do anything spectacular like supernova which is even more of a bummer meaning this planet's death will be pretty unspectacular.
break out the links (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SOB - it is taken as read that 'Destroying the Earth' = 'making the Earth uninhabitable for a large global human population'
BTW, if it weren't for environmental scientists, we'd be filling the seas with more toejam than we do now. It has been proven beyond any doubt that effluents from industries such as steel-making, mining and smelting of any kind DOES kill the environment. I really can't see how you can refute that.
It's all about accountability - I know you conservatives are big on that, but it seems you are 'all mouth and no trousers' (to use an English colloquialism). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Predictably, it would seem many Americans want to follow the old 'everyone's against us' argument and bury your head in the sand. As usual, that argument falls apart. Britain is introducing something called the Climate Change Levy, which will tax industry which pollutes the environment over standards agreed in the Kiyoto accord.
Needless to say, we our on target to meet the Kiyoto targets. We seem to be able to keep to deals we make.
The ironic thing in all this is that it was George Bush Sr. who was a big champion of environmental protection, and a Republican. His son wants to do the dishonourable thing and run away from his country's committments - how very commendable. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But maybe we are being too hard on Little Bush? It was surely his programmers...er... advisors that came up with the policy after all? It really makes me wonder how you voted him in... but then wait a minute... you didn't. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Don't joke about it. It was too close call for comfort. By the next election gorons will increase in number due to natural procreation rate and their leaders will make sure they punch the right holes. Better think up some really complicated ballots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
miko
I found him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://www.tmcnet.com/comsolexpo/ (http://www.tmcnet.com/comsolexpo/)
gotta love the write up intro ...
Eagler
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That is funny!!! LOL!!! "Winner of the popular vote" heheee LOL. Big time loser to the most bumbling, incompetent person to ever come down the pike!!(Lib interpretation)
You just have to love the Libs in the press always grasping at straws (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
How come none of you environmentalists will answer my question?? What are we to do about global warming?? Am waiting patiently for an answer. I don't think you have an answer, do ya?
I still want to try shutting down Europe. There are no guns there so crime won't happen when the lights go out!! You all in Europe have nothing but love and peace for each other and would be willing to try this experiment, right?
Am trying to get you all down to where the rubber meets the road. Just what do you propose that the world do, and by the world I mean everyone,about the sky falling,er I mean, global warming.
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 04-02-2001).]
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 04-02-2001).]
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 04-02-2001).]
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WE DO HAVE THE POWER TO DESTROY THE EARTH.
What a crock of toejam!
We have the power to destroy mankind, not the earth itself, the earth is much to vast for an insignificant species of animal <man> to destroy.
The earth will remain long after we're gone - and another species would take our place at the top of the heap.
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Imagine this scene:
You're sitting in a old car in your garage, engine ('64 413cid) is running, you cant stop it and you can't escape. In that situation would you like to have a new 100cid with unleaded fuel and catalysator under your hood?
At least you could live 10 mins more hoping someone to came and shut down engine.
Naah, Whatta hell. Just put the pedal to the medal and enjoy the last minutes of your life. Genetic pool etc...
I hope this wasn't too hard to catch... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I think its funny that a set of nations that have been deforesting, polluting, and mining Europe for many many centuries, believe they have a right to complain about, judge, or demand anything, from any nation that is still developing it's infrastructure and resources.
Confirmation bias. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Jihad, as you wipe the spittel from your monitor, refer to my last post on the definition of the 'destruction of the Earth'. Thanks.
1776, we reduce emissions - it is that simple. Europe is doing/has done it - why not the US?
I think its funny that a set of [European] nations believe they have a right to complain about, judge, or demand anything from any nation that is still developing it's infrastructure and resources.
Perhaps you should check your sources: developing countries have concessions on emissions under Kiyoto.
Or are you saying the US is still a developing nation? Really? I find that funny.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Dowding, be much more specific, please. Ya, I know you no long burn coal to heat your homes, but other then that, what? I know manufacturing is way down in England as I see hardly any products made in England in the US. Most are made in China. Are they reducing their emissions, my guess is no.
Come on the sky is falling and your answers are coming up real short. Just reducing emissions just makes Global warming come on slowly, right??!! What is the resolution!!???~!!!
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What, you expect me to print the abstracts from several thousand scientific papers here? I'm sorry, I don't really have the time.
Reducing emissions is not just about global warming - there are other issues tied in with it, such as acid rain and the scarcity of fossil fuels.
Lastly, many people have mentioned that volcanoes produce tons of green house gasses. True. What is a little bogus is the following assumption that emissions from mankind's industries have no effect, or are a 'drop in the ocean'. Who said that global warming is a proportional cause and effect phenomenon? The Earth is very finely balanced (as is life as we know it, Jim (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) - the slightest change can and has had major effects on the climate of the Earth.
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Still no specifics on how to stop global warming, just as I suspected!!
Still all I get is chicken little, "the sky is falling, the sky is falling",Geez!!
Admit it, global warming is a tool of leftist to control economies and people, nothing more, nothing less. Period. The home of leftists is environmentalism. BAH, what they would have you to do is create utter foolishness. All this science you allude to is also suspicious. I am sure their opinions have been contradicted more then once.
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1776, one thing to remember in a debate is to not involve any forms of faith or emotion in your argument. You must keep a neutral base and use only facts to win. i'm not tellnig you how to argue.. well yeah i am, but you'll never get anywhere by pointing fingers and being obstinate (sp?). Ya gotta give a little to get a little.
And another thing to everyone, please don't go around blaming an individual's country for something that was out of our control in the present day (ie death camps). Its not good to constantly live in the past, occasionally it is, but not all the time.
I am a US citizen and I know that America has faults, but so do other countries. No one is perfect and we dont need to spend our energy pointing fingers. If a problem exists today, we dont solve anything by blaming others, we have to deal with it as it stands.
I could go on for hours stating facts and my opinions, but the Duke/Maryland game is on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Thanks
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-=///Octavius\\\=-
VMF-323 "Death Rattlers"
MAG-33
(http://ripsnort60.tripod.com/DeathRattlerslogo.gif)
Maz203@aol.com
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Y'know, I just thought I'd point something out here, that every person calling other people "Leftists", "Environmental Weirdos", "Socialists", and everything else seems to be missing entirely.
Any time a new technology is brought online, it must be designed, produced, marketed, and sold.
If we go to electric cars, plants will produce them, people will have jobs, engineers will be working night and day, electric "filling" stations will pop up, etc.
Just because a business becomes more "environmentally friendly" doesn't mean they say goodbye to profits. I mean really, wake up people.
If higher efficiency furnaces and air-conditioners become regulation, they have to be built and sold.
Higher R-factor insulation has spawned lots of new technology in the insulation business.
Folks, remember, just because it's environmentally sound, doesn't mean you can't make a buck off of it. It just means you have to "think outside the box", and a lot of times, that seems to be too much for people who would rather sit around reading the Wall Street Journal, and trying to maintain the status quo.
Society always has been, and will always continue to be, a dynamic process.
I've seen a hell of a lot of regulation in my life so far, in lots of different fields, and there always seems to be a bunch of rich capitalists around who adapt very nicely, and make a ton of money off of the new way of thinking.
Well, I won't go on and on like I usually do. Just remember, being environmentally friendly can make you a hell of a lot of money. It doesn't mean you resign yourself, and are forcing others, to live dressed in rags in a tent in the woods.
Let's stop acting silly about all this, and figure out how to use the new consciousness to make some damn money. That, my friends, is the TRUE "American Way."
Mk
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He heee, I just found 2 middle-of-the-roaders (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Watch out for the traffic, you are going to get run over (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Welp, a green planet is all well and good, except when confronted with the fact that California is out of energy right now, and looking at very serious rate hikes (which they wouldn't allow the suppliers to do, but that's another thread) and continued rolling blackouts.
The upper west coast, as well as New York, are looking at similar situations in their near future.
OPEC has just announced a reduction in oil supply.
The hardships in CA coincide with a serious downturn in the tech market, pushing under companies that might have pulled through (further undercutting any tax revenue to subsidize energy costs).
In short, Bush was not exactly out in left field when he said it's not the best time to implement further restrictions.
Does it bother me that Europe is in a huffy because we're worrying about our own problems? Not particularly.
[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 04-03-2001).]
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I cannot undertsand how a country like USA can allways be late (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
The American have the money and the technologie to do great things but they fail on some important problem like "Gun control" (IMO it's to late to for real gun control ala Eureopean) ,"Education" and now "Ecologie".
You have a great country with wonderfull ressources human potential... landscape and so on but you fail to plan anything for the future ... too bad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I think I read somewhere that there is a plan to actually shade the sunlight that falls upon the earth by placing large light reflecting panels between the earth and sun. I think that could probably solve the global warming problem in the near term. I'm not convinced myself that Global Warming is not a natural cycle. The current warm period that the earth is enjoying is just a respit in between Ice Ages. Our sun may be a long cycle variable star, none of us have been around long enough to know that or not.
Having said that, Dubya SCARES THE HELL OUT OF ME the russians are patrolling with Bears again, started on George W's inauguration day. Now this thing in china with them ramming one of our spy planes, not to mention the escalating violence in the middle east. And whos in Charge? George W.
We may see some serious heat soon of the thermonuclear variety. Unavoidable I'm afraid as resources diminish and population increases there will have to be at some point a "Culling of the Herd".
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Aces of America
Fly to Live, Live to fly
Do or Die
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"He heee, I just found 2 middle-of-the-roaders Watch out for the traffic, you are going to get run over"
Simply being on one side or another is never the real answer. Extremists may have a lot of buddies to drink beer with, but rather than solving problems, they simply wind up throwing mud at each other instead of moving forward.
"Welp, a green planet is all well and good, except when confronted with the fact that California is out of energy right now, and looking at very serious rate hikes"
I guess if that is where you insist on living, you're going to have to deal with it. I'm not sure why with the incredible amount of sunshine that state gets, and the winds coming in off of the Pacific, that they haven't explored more alternative energy sources like windmills and solar power. If you can afford to pay $300,000 for a 2 bedroom house, you ought to be able to cough up a couple thousand more for a windmill or a solar collector to help offset your energy needs.
Since that would be cheaper to a home owner than buying all their power for electricity and heating water, etc., how about a program that looks into lower interest rates, higher qualification ratios (to help offset the cost of alternative energy avenues) or other incentives to homebuyers who implement these technologies?
"In short, Bush was not exactly out in left field when he said it's not the best time to implement further restrictions."
Bush's main problem is that the ONLY policies he's following in regard to energy fall solely on the "supply side" of things. He looks for quick answers now, and doesn't seem to realize that time marches on. Unfortunately, he's got the insight and vision of a grilled cheese sandwich.
"Having said that, Dubya SCARES THE HELL OUT OF ME the russians are patrolling with Bears again, started on George W's inauguration day. Now this thing in china with them ramming one of our spy planes, not to mention the escalating violence in the middle east. And whos in Charge? George W."
I am serious when I say that I am not trying to start a fight here. Starting a fight here is W-A-Y too easy.
But, I will say that unfortunately, this is a pretty blatant statement that many other world leaders do not respect our current president.
I think it is important that we all keep a clear head at this time. I hope Mr. Bush's handlers will teach him a little diplomacy, and coach him in ways that will garner him respect from someone else besides Tony Blair.
Managing world politics is not like managing an oil field. You don't just pull up in a shiny 4WD pick-up, get out, and yell at everyone around you, telling them you're going to kick their bellybutton if they don't do what you want them to.
You tell everybody everything that they know, but you don't tell them everything YOU know. Sometimes it may seem like you're doing one thing, but you're really accomplishing another.
Europeans, Asians, Indians, and every other country on Earth older than 225 years, have been doing it this way for centuries untold.
For someone who's supposedly got the best cabinet in the world, they are scaring the toejam out of me. I expected a hell of a lot more out of Cheney & Co.
Let's just write this off as "the rookie jitters", and hope he gets a little calmed down, and starts receiving respect instead of disdain from other world leaders, especially those who don't wave his flag, just because he's the American President.
You have to give respect to get it, and "everyone's nemesis" Clinton showed that as long as you give respect, you don't have to back down, or start a nuclear war. A lot of really nasty people in the world may have hated Clinton, but they didn't think he was a fool.
It's time for Bush's cabinet to step up, and start giving him "worldly" advice, instead of trying to act like the world is a construction site, and he's the foreman.
This is a time where, if it occured in Clinton's administration (which it wouldn't have, because he had more respect on a world-wide basis), Conservatives would have started roasting him.
When the chips were down, they would attack him in front of the world. Unfortunately, this backfired for them, and instead of being respected by the world, they were thought of as opportunist jackals, and dismissed as being people who really had nothing of value to say.
And actually, what's going on right now may be a subconscious spill-over from those events.
I'm getting a little nervous about all this stuff too. For me, I propose something entirely different than what we've been doing for the last eight years.
Instead of lambasting this president, let's try and guide him.
Instead of hurling insults, let's try throwing ideas at him instead.
I think later on today I'll e-mail the White House. I'll let Mr. Bush know I totally disagree with about everything he stands for, but that I think at this juncture in our history, it is important that we stand together as Americans, and that he in turn should think carefully before he speaks and acts.
It's a big world out there. They've been doing this toejam a lot longer than we have.
If we speak our minds intelligently to our president, and keep our infighting to ourselves instead of serving it up on the World Platter, maybe we can get through this with as little damage to our country as possible.
I never thought I'd feel this way, but with the way things are going right now, I think it's time to put down our slingshots and barbed instruments, and try solidarity, clarity, and intelligence for a change.
Mk
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Mk, there's a difference between ignoring the environment and not wanting to add regulations during a period of rising energy costs and a slowing economy. Though you may get your wish, factories may end up closing anyway.
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"the russians are patrolling with Bears again, started on George W's inauguration day. Now this thing in china with them ramming one of our spy planes, not to mention the escalating violence in the middle east. And whos in Charge? George W."
What a load of hogwash!
Bush forced the Russians to resume Recon flights in Bears?
Bush forced the Chinese to ram one of our Recon aircraft?
Bush forced the Palestinians and the Israelis to step up their tit-for-tat murderous squabbling?
All in the first 100 days, eh? Why don't you toss in that he started the economic downturn last April?
Recon flights have been going on for a long, long time. They start and stop in some areas but they generally are always in operation. We haven't had a real problem with the Russians on EITHER side of the Recon fence since about the mid '60's.
Recon is a pretty benign activity that all "powers" participate in. It's only when one country starts acting outside of the boundaries that problems occur. That would be China, in this instance.
In short.... hogwash.
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Augh... The Israel and Palestine squabble goes back over 2000 years guys. Learn some history.. everything is connected in a small way. Learn about the people and what they value and you'll understand why the people of the world do what they do. Mostly all of the disputes in the world that exist today can be traced back veeeeeerrrry far. History, my friends, history is the key. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Oct
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It's times like these that really make me despise capitalism, aka justified greed. It's really nothing more than the flip side of communism with a much better populace control mechanism - consumerism. Modern day equivalent of 'Bread and the Circus'. We're going to burn this planet for every last Golly-gee dollar that it's worth, so help us God.
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"Is there proof that the CO2 increase is causing the temperature increase? None at all. Only unproven theories and models. And some models show the opposite - that there are mechanisms whereby increased CO2 concentration can cause a decrease in temperature."
Eh this is EARTH we are talking about... Polution is bad and thats final, why not be safe then sorry?
$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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At what cost Maniac?
If you want full ecological purity, you need to turn off that computer, and any other electronic devices in your home. You need to get rid of the car, and stop eating foods that must be cooked. Fires are out as well. Pulling water out of the ground is disturbing the ecological balance as well, stop bathing, and drinking from your faucet.
Definately no housing, as that requires deforestation. Go find a nice cave, or dig a decent hole, and enjoy yourself.
Ahh, that's not what you meant? You mean we have to find a balance between our needs and pollution? Interesting concept.