Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Krusty on August 08, 2005, 04:12:44 PM
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My family has had 5 PCs for some time now. We share a connection via an 8-port switch (EZXS88W I think). The cable model goes to the switch, and each computer has a cable to the switch as well. Each PC has ZoneAlarm.
The problem is that not all computers can see each other. I know how to set up the basic things so that the computers SHOULD see each other. I've set the workgroup to be the same, and disabled windows firewall, and so forth. Each computer gets internet just fine, but only 3 could see each other (the same 3) and for a while the other 2 saw each other then they were replaced and the same settings were applied but each can only see itself.
We're running WinXP on all boxes now, as opposed to a WinME and a Win98 previously. We tried adding each comp's IP to every comp's ZoneAlarm trusted zone. This allowed print sharing on the ocmputers that could see each other, but we have never been able to get a true file sharing network going.
Does anybody have any ideas what might be the problem? Has anybody experienced this before?
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I had similair problem.
In my case, the computers got their IP addres from the ISP.
But, some times the ISP gave each computer an IP address from a different SUB NET, so the IP address and IP SUB NET MASK told the computers they are not in the same LAN. (even tho thei were)
So I had to manualy set temporary IP address from the same IP SUB NET, when I wanted to transfere files betwen my computers.
Now I have a router with DHCP on it, so all my PC get a "grey" or "non public" IP address, and are able to see each other ok.
To the Internet all share one IP (NAT).
It sounds like that you could have the same problem as I had.
So check that all computers are on same IP sub net.
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/S/subnet_mask.html
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I had a friend bring a computer over for me to help him tweak a bit. We had the same problem your describing. Stable home network, linksys hub (switch) and a DSL modem.
Our 3 machines had no problems, his wasn't there. Turned off his MS firewall, and hey presto, he shows up on the net.
Downloaded zone alarm, he tried the basic. I grabbed the pro version a day later. Back to network problems.
Even though we each had the others ip listed.
After 3 weeks of running ZoneAlarm pro I dumped it. In that time I'd had exactly 0 attempts for anyone to ping my machine. Frankly it wasn't worth the hassle.
As for his machine, he could see the net with ZA running, but no one else could see him.
I think you'd be better off with a single firewall at the modem than 5 machines running ZA.
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Stone I've heard DHCP before, could ya give me a brief description of what it is?
Ghosth, we actually need a firewall here. I get hundreds and hundreds of access attempts every day (it's a college neighborhood, all the wannabe hackers, I bet). Hell I got 300 in an hour once, somebody somewhere REALLY wanted to hack into me. Since then I've decided NOT to go without a firewall.
The other option is a gateway computer setup. The problem with that is that we don't have a "server" computer that can always be on. I could put one together I bet, but not for a little while. The other problem is that we use all computers we have, and it would be hard to convince the rest of my family that "this is for sharing, but not for using" lol.
It would be nice to have a central shared printer, tho... every time I get print jobs on my shared laser printer whatever I'm doing takes a dump for a full minute as the spool prepares itself.
EDIT: If anybody can suggest a firewall other than zonealarm, that allows file sharing, that would be nice. We're all using ZA because ... wel... it's free! And it's relatively good, from my point of view.
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I have 3 PCs on a home network. I had a bunch of problems having the PCs see each other. When I put XP on each and updated them to the latest service pack, they all can see each other.
I use ZA on my PC, and I think the others have Windows Firewall. You need to make sure you make the IP range on your network a trusted zone, then turn down the settings to allow file sharing. Then you need enable sharing on the folders you want to share.
Good luck,
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Krusty, has it occured to you that all those "hack attempts" your getting could be your other computers trying to get hooked up.
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Zmeg, I considered that, as well. Negative. They were outside IPs, and the same IP (in the 300 tries example) was trying different ports and different ways to get in.
I tried adding all the IPs to every PC's ZoneAlarm. I'm thinking it's a combination of ZoneAlarm's shortcomings and the switch's lack of features. I have my eye on a router (not just a switch), what do you all think of a NetGear one:
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16833122007
I've also sent an e-mail or two to various places to see what they suggest is best for their programs.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Stone I've heard DHCP before, could ya give me a brief description of what it is?
Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP).
Before people had to manualy enter their IP configuration. (IP address, subnet mask, default gateway, nameserver etc.)
Now ISP's and offices uses DHCP. This simply is a server that listens to computers coming online and asking for a IP configuration. The DHCP server will then send the host (the pc) its unique IP address, along with the other IP settings. (Subnet, default gateway etc.)
Now I would suggest you buy a router that has built in DHCP server in it. This way all the PC will get an NAT (Networ Address Translation) non public IP address.
This will ensure that the LAN (Local Area Network) (your 5 pc's) are on the same IP Subnet. Also it will add some security, as it is impossible to activly hack (eg. ping) the PC's from the Internet. Hackers will only be able to see the router IP.
Some on-line games does not work to great with NAT network, but Aces High II has no problems with NAT. (I have NAT)
If all computers have XP, I would drop ZA and use XP own firewall. Just make sure you have the XP fire wall on, and that all your PC are uppdated with SP2 + all critical windouws updates.
NAT + XP local firewall is a OK and reasonable protection.
(Also add AVAST or some other free antivirus.)
BUT:
Firs it would be nice to see that you actually have the PC's in different SUBNET.
Please post your IP SUBNET MASK, and check that all PC's has the same mask. Then we can see wich numbers in the IP address has to be equal, to be on same SUB NET. (Do not post your IP address tho!)
Also IF you are on different ip subnets and do not want to spend money on a router, there are other workarounds. Maybe one can get the ISP to setup their DHCP to send your coumputers IP from the same subnet?
I have also heard that some people has installed other network protocols (Netbios or NWLINK) than IP for local file sharing. I have not tried it my self, but it should work if all computers are connected via a HUB/(switch/repeater). Dont know how it will effect IP trafic tho...
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It's late now, I'll check all the subnet masks tomorrow and post them then.
I do remember the days when I had to manually configure the things DHCP does, but those were for dial-up. Good to know it's automatic now (it sure was a pain to set up)
Thanks for the help.
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My subnet:
255.255.254.0
PC 2 (I used to be able to see it, probably a ZA issue)
255.255.254.0
PC 3 (never was able to see this one)
255.255.252.0
PC 4 (never was able to see this one)
255.255.248.0
Couldn't check the laptop, as it's not here right now. I suspect its the same as the first two, as I used to be able to see it.
They all have different default gateways, as well.. I'd have thought we'd all use the same default gateway. Oh well.
So now what? Is there a way to force a subnet mask?
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Easiest way Krusty in all honesty is to pick a cheap ($40 ish) home router.
Use that to hand out DHCP IP addresses to your 'home' network.
They come with a built in firewall and allow you to share the internet connection.
Other than that what IP addresses and subnet masks are you using?
Without something than can do routing you must use the same network masks throughout your network.
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problem is there are no cheap 8-port routers that have DHCP. Bet one I can find so far is a NetGear for about $100
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Try a cheap 4 port router ($40) and a switch, or didn't you say you already had a hub? (switch is better).
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I've heard different stories about which is better, hub or switch. I have a switch. So you're saying connect the switch to the router. Will that work, or will it complicate things? Will there be issues, or are they designed to work that way?
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Switches are better.
Yup just connect the switch to the router, your PCs to the switch.
What you could do (better setup)-
Assuming 4 port router which is the norm
Put your AH2 PC on say port 1 of the router.
Put the switch on port 2 of the router
Connect all other PC's to the switch.
Just isolates your PC from the collision domain of the PCs on the switch.
Will not affect subnet masks or IP adresses, set up as standard.
If you need detailed help, PM me and I will give you my tel #.
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Naw, I think I get what you're saying. I was thinking I'd have to use the switch anyways, if there's an upstairs/downstairs setup (which there will be). As it is now we have 4 cables running through a hole drilled in the floor. Having just 1 cable (from switch upstairs to router downstairs) would make things a lot eassier.
EDIT: That's an obvious idea you had there, but I totally didn't see it! Getting a 4-port is literally half the price of an 8-port.
However, I've been asked to inquire whether a router shares IPs or if it gives each connection its own IPs? We have cable modem, which gives you 1 IP, but each additional (and they count, trust me) costs an extra $5 a month, and if we have 1 default and 4 extra (5 PCs) we're paying $20 a month when the service itself is only about $30 a month. Nearly double just for the IPs. The goal is to use 1 IP and share amongst all connected computers.
So does a router share an IP? If not I might get a 4-port and set it all up as suggested, but use a gateway comp for the cable modem then hook said comp to router via second NIC.
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Strange that you do not have the same SUBNET MASK on all PC's.
I assume you have in local area network settings for the TCP/IP set on "obtain an IP address automatically"
If that is the case, your ISP sends very different IP scopes off some strange reason...
Anyway. The subnet mask gets a little complicated, as there are other masks as 0 and 255.
Using the windows calculator (start / run / calc), in (view/scientific) enter the decimal number (eg.255) and then select bin, to see the binary value. Add leading zeros, if the binary number lenght is below 8.
0 = 00000000
255 = 11111111
254 = 11111110
252 = 11111100
248 = 11111000
Now you have look what IP address you have, and the 1 and 0 has to be the same for all PC's where the there is a 1 in the subnet mask.
Eg.
Subnet 255.255.254.0
The first two numbers has to be exactly the same, and the third nubmer has to be +/- 1 (because the first 7 bits has to be equal, and the value for the last or lower bit is 1)
The fourth number (the last) may be different on all PC's.
So say that your IP address is 195.80.90.5 and subnet mask is 255.255.248.0
In Binary this is:
ADRS 11000011.01010000.01011010.00 000101
MASK 11111111.1111111.11111000.000 00000
For an other PC to be on the same subnet as the one with IP 195.80.90.5 / 255.255.248.0, it has to have an IP address that :
First digit is 195
Second digit is 80
Thirs digit is 88 - 95
Because 88 = 01011000 and 95 = 01011111
The netmask 248 alows the three last bits to differ.
Fourth number can be any number.
So in order to see if you computers are on the same subnet, you have to compare the binary IP to the SUBNET MASK.
Even tho you have a different SUBNET MASK on the PC's, they could be on same SUBNET, if the bits are equal on the third value.
(Say if the third digit is the same or +/- 1 on all computers).
I am afraid im not the best person to try to explain this, and this maybe sounds more complicated that it is? (I am not nativ english)
But, in practice, get the router with DHCP and NAT. :aok
Or call the ISP and ask if they can arange their system to send IP config from same SUBNET to all computers. (If they can)
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Originally posted by Krusty
However, I've been asked to inquire whether a router shares IPs or if it gives each connection its own IPs?
The router will get a public IP from the ISP, but then all the computers will get non public IP address from the router (assuming the router has DHCP server built in)
So the ISP have no idea how many computers you have :)
A public address is an unique address on the Internet.
A non public address is only unigue at your home.
Say you configure the router DHCP to give non public adress 10.0.0.1 to 10.0.0.16.
We can not try to ping your PC 10.0.0.1, because it is a non public address, and will not route on the Internet, only on your LAN.
But when you with your 10.0.0.1 PC try to play AH2 or surf the net, trafic will route to the router, that will go to the AH2 server, showing the router IP as your IP.
The router will translate the address back to 10.0.0.1 when the data is sent from the AH2 server back to you. (That is the NAT thing)
But simply put, there can be thousands of PC's with the same non public IP address (eg. 10.0.0.2) but only ONE in the entire Internet with a puplic IP address.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Naw, I think I get what you're saying. I was thinking I'd have to use the switch anyways, if there's an upstairs/downstairs setup (which there will be). As it is now we have 4 cables running through a hole drilled in the floor. Having just 1 cable (from switch upstairs to router downstairs) would make things a lot eassier.
EDIT: That's an obvious idea you had there, but I totally didn't see it! Getting a 4-port is literally half the price of an 8-port.
However, I've been asked to inquire whether a router shares IPs or if it gives each connection its own IPs? We have cable modem, which gives you 1 IP, but each additional (and they count, trust me) costs an extra $5 a month, and if we have 1 default and 4 extra (5 PCs) we're paying $20 a month when the service itself is only about $30 a month. Nearly double just for the IPs. The goal is to use 1 IP and share amongst all connected computers.
So does a router share an IP? If not I might get a 4-port and set it all up as suggested, but use a gateway comp for the cable modem then hook said comp to router via second NIC.
Yes the router shares the 'internet' connection.
You enter all you stuff given to you by your ISP (IP Address, Netmask, Gateway and DNS) in the WAN settings.
All the home stuff connects to the LAN side, you can choose your own netmask and IP range, or just leave as is.
Enable the DHCP and your off.