Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: slimm50 on August 09, 2005, 10:39:28 AM
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60 years ago today a B-29 piloted by Col. Charles Sweeney dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasaki, Japan. The emperor then called a meeting of the Supreme Council to try to make the military leaders accept the proposed surrender...they refused.
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And the "unconditional surrender" that the USA asked for, was not "unconditional".
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How many nations have, after receiving the surrender of another, invested billions in rebuilding that nation, installed a democratic government, provided for mutual defense of it and returned that nation to autonomous rule?
Just curious.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
And the "unconditional surrender" that the USA asked for, was not "unconditional".
in what way... give some examples.
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Originally posted by 1K3
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
And the "unconditional surrender" that the USA asked for, was not "unconditional".
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in what way... give some examples.
The one and only condition was that the Emporer would not be charged with any war crimes and would be left alone and unharmed.
A minor concessions in the grand screme of things.
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it was a matter of allowing the japanese people to exist. We would have had to use several dozens of atomic bombs and burn and radiate millions upon millions of Japanese before they would have allowed the trial and/or execution of the emperor.
General M relayed to the white house that allowing the emperor to be tried would be like crucifying christ in the minds of the Japanese.
It had to be conditional in that repect rip. But the agreed upon terms were the unconditional surrender of the japanese armed forces.
Sounds like a great deal to me to close a war down that had been killing many tens of millions of humans for 6 years straight.
It was time to get that crappy business over with, shut down...kaput as fast as possible.
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It is just beyond me how some can justify conventional or firebombing that killed more people during the war but have a problem with a single bomb that was more efficient at what bombs were designed to do.
Nothing clean about war. It was the right thing to do.
This coming from someone who believes that Japan was a defeated nation, its people tired for war and would have surrendered.
I'm half-Japanese, my mom lived through the firebombing (she was eight).
Total war. Because of those two bombs, there hasn't been a WWIII.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
It is just beyond me how some can justify conventional or firebombing that killed more people during the war but have a problem with a single bomb that was more efficient at what bombs were designed to do.
Nothing clean about war. It was the right thing to do.
This coming from someone who believes that Japan was a defeated nation, its people tired for war and would have surrendered.
I'm half-Japanese, my mom lived through the firebombing (she was eight).
Total war. Because of those two bombs, there hasn't been a WWIII.
When someone talks about the atomic bomb in WWII I always think of the firebombing too. Where is the outrage for the hunreds of thousands that died from firestorms caused by allied bombing in Tokyo, Hamburg and other large cities.
If they feel the need to whine about the bomb, they need to read a little history and see that the two atomic bombs were a tiny fraction of the devastation caused by the war.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
How many nations have, after receiving the surrender of another, invested billions in rebuilding that nation, installed a democratic government, provided for mutual defense of it and returned that nation to autonomous rule?
Just curious.
Do you think it was done just because of good faith?
Just curious.
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Originally posted by Staga
Do you think it was done just because of good faith?
Just curious.
Of course not, which, contrary to some beliefs, makes us pretty damn smart!
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oh no, not again!
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A complete unconditional surrender was not sought after for two reasons; Hirohito would give Japan more stability in a post WWII enviornment, and because Russia was gobbling up large amounts of land in their dash following the use of the Atomic weapons.
It was definitely the right choice to make... even if many wanted to see the Emporer hanged.
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Deleted.
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Deleted.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Originally posted by Staga
Do you think it was done just because of good faith?
Just curious.
You mean as opposed to selfish barbarsim showed by the victorious european powers after WW1 or the Soviets after WW2 in the east?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You mean as opposed to selfish barbarsim showed by the victorious european powers after WW1 or the Soviets after WW2 in the east?
GH, USSR withdrew from Manchuria and Korea after the war was over, we only took back the base at Port Arthur that was rented by Empire in 1890s for 99 years. We later abandoned that navy base in exchange of US abandoning their.
It's a well-known fact that when Mao Zedong visited Moscow in 1949 and asked Stalin for advise how to buld a Soviet society in China - Stalin answered that they have to find their own way and not copy Soviet system.
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I meant eastern europe.
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"Stalin answered that they have to find their own way and not copy Soviet system."
Is that what he told eastern europe as well?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I meant eastern europe.
You said - East. "Eastern Europe" is West. Sorry for misunderstanding.
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Funny how our perspectives differ. :)
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
"Stalin answered that they have to find their own way and not copy Soviet system."
Is that what he told eastern europe as well?
Did Eastern Europe have a system of "Soviets"? "Soviet" = a "Council" of people's representatives. Eastern Europe didn't even have purely Communist parties, only some things like "Socialistic United Party of Germany" or "Polish Workers Party".
It may be quite interesting for Westerners to study "Countries of People's Democracy". It wasn't a uniformed line of incubator twins.
And again I have to say that so-called "Western democracy" in countries occupied by "allies" was... hmmm... forced.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Funny how our perspectives differ. :)
Hmm, I still call USA a "Western" country, when it's only something like 50km East of Chukotka across the Bering Straight...
Grun, it's sometimes really funny: here "liberals" are right-wing and "conservatives" are lefts.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Did Eastern Europe have a system of "Soviets"? "Soviet" = a "Council" of people's representatives. Eastern Europe didn't even have purely Communist parties, only some things like "Socialistic United Party of Germany" or "Polish Workers Party".
It may be quite interesting for Westerners to study "Countries of People's Democracy". It wasn't a uniformed line of incubator twins.
And again I have to say that so-called "Western democracy" in countries occupied by "allies" was... hmmm... forced.
Forced? LOL!! Damn right.. we 'forced' 'em all to call themselves 'France' and 'Belgium' and 'Netherlands', etc; installed by force our picked governments and refused to allow them to join the Warsaw Pact under threat of forced removal to 'workers paradises' in Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona and Utah. Cripes, when France and Italy elected socialist governments in the 50's and 60's, the very next day American Tanks were in the streets of the capitals.. the nerve of those guys!
:rolleyes:
Why is it virtually every nation that had the word 'Democratic' in it's title was in fact a communist puppet run **** hole that remained crushed under the heel of the Soviet Union for 50 years after the war? Tell me.. how many 'democratic rebellions' did your Soviet Hero's tromp down in Czech and Hungarian 'Democracys'?
Boroda, yer a helluva posterboy for the new Soviet Socialist Order!
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Forced? LOL!! Damn right.. we 'forced' 'em all to call themselves 'France' and 'Belgium' and 'Netherlands', etc; installed by force our picked governments and refused to allow them to join the Warsaw Pact under threat of forced removal to 'workers paradises' in Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona and Utah. Cripes, when France and Italy elected socialist governments in the 50's and 60's, the very next day American Tanks were in the streets of the capitals.. the nerve of those guys!
Hang. Please, tell me exactly how many people from "People's Democracy countries" were "removed by force" to clean the snow in Siberia. I bet you'll be surprised.
We had a guy here from Italy who explained about their "first democratic elections" on American bayonets. Both systems are far from innocent. At least I admit the obvious while you still repeat your propaganda.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Why is it virtually every nation that had the word 'Democratic' in it's title was in fact a communist puppet run **** hole that remained crushed under the heel of the Soviet Union for 50 years after the war? Tell me.. how many 'democratic rebellions' did your Soviet Hero's tromp down in Czech and Hungarian 'Democracys'?
First: a Hungarian "uprising" was obviously fed by CIA, and CIA "veterans" admit it. They started to hang Russians and Communists on lamp-posts. What if in Mexico they'll start to hang "gringos" and "capitalists" on lamp-posts? What will be the US reaction? I doubt that it could be an order for T-34 regiments to "shoot over their heads" when under hostile fire... I talked to two people who were in Hungary in 1956... They got orders from high command to "shoot at the sky" and only their direct commanders disobeyed because they didn't want to lose every soldier :(
As for CzSSR - how many people got klled there by Evil Warsaw Treaty Toops? That operation can be compared to one of the numerous US invasions into Panama. BTW, ever heard how Panama appeared on map? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Hangtime
Boroda, yer a helluva posterboy for the new Soviet Socialist Order!
Hang, I am a Russian imperialist and proud of it. We are both patriots of our Nations. Some posts made by You can be translated and published in Russian "patriotic" press to scare the illiterates, as well as mine may serve you in your redneck leaflets (no offences please, i simply try to find a verbal construction to describe silly yellow press playing on hatered towards "traditional enemy").
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I like that russian guy "Boroda" he's funny!
I have to admit i think sometimes Boroda is being a lil sarcastic, (and it so had to see in a persons writing to know if they are or arent)
Either way both you guys are right!
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Pavel, the Berlin Wall was put up for what reason? PostWar Eastern Europe was a nightmare for eastern europeans.. first under the boot of the nazi's, then the communists. Your esteemed government was directly involved WITH the Nazi's in their conquest of Poland and most of eastern Europe before Hitler turned on you..
Post War, your troops slammed down the Latvain and Estonian anti-communist democratic movement, installed puppet governments in Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Poland, East Germany.. While we pitched in with the Marshall Plan to rebuild a free western europe, your government enslaved the people of the east.
As for your 'american bayonets' in Italy.. c'mon. If you mean we stopped a communist coup attempt to seize control of the Italian government, that I can believe.. but the people of Italy have had their own government, post war to present. It was never an 'american puppet republic'.. the only 'puppet republics' in europe were soviet sattellite states, held in your sphere of influence by force.
Yes, our government is guilty of supplying partisans in soviet bloc states.. just as yours promoted and supplied communist partisans in Central America, Africa and Asia.
Panama is Panamanian my friend. Not the happiest history.. but those folks suffered far less than the Hungarians did. As for the invasion.. Noriega overthrew an elected government and then had the very poor sense to declare war on us, attacked americans, killed embassy and canal zone troops.. So we kicked his ass, tried him convicted him and stuck him in prison. Then we gave the country back to the elected government.
Fact is, on the world stage, you guys failed. Totally. Your empire imploded.. it collapsed, the vaunted 'revolution' failed, the walls came down.
Yah lost. You had nearly 2/3 of the world.. now you got bubkis. Nada. Zip. Nothin.
And there's a McDonalds in Pushkin Square... the worlds LARGEST, busiest McDonalds, with 27 cash registers and a 70 foot long order counter.
When is it gonna sink in Comrade.. when you gonna wake up and look around, see the wreckage you guys made of Eastern Europe and take responsibility.. when are yah gonna say 'this was evil.. we were wrong. This should never happen again..'
Instead, you speak of false glory, call stalin a hero of mother russia.. when you gonna realize you were duped? Lied to? Mislead? Screwed, like everybody else that evil system touched?
When?
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See Rule #5