Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hubsonfire on August 09, 2005, 02:35:04 PM
-
Dump formations immediately. Deny 1 guy the ability to immediately disable an entire field. (also put an end to the crazy animations caused by repeatedly hopping from plane to plane, and perhaps improve the frame rate issues that bombers cause for many folks).
Alter the bombing setup so only the bombardier can drop bombs. Only level flight, at a reasonable altitude, from an internal view.
Bring back the old sight requiring calibration for speed and alt. The current setup is no where near as difficult as it should be.
Well, there you have it: Cures for divebombing, turbolazer turrets, and rampant porking of FH. It would take 3 people doing what 1 can do now to affect the game, and bomber survivability would require close winging, teamwork, and communication, as well as providing you bomber guys with a little more historical accuracy, and your efforts would that much closer to being worthy of extra recognition. Sound good?
-
Here, here!
-
Sounds great hub. But, unfortunately, HTC is a business and must remain solvent. One of the ways it does this is to appeal to the lowest common denominator. 'Dumbing down the game' , in theory, makes it more accessable to the masses. The masses being anyone with a heartbeat, a computer and a credit card. Of course HTC would love nothing more than to appeal to everyone with a heartbeat, a computer and a credit card to the tune of $15 a month per person. Even if doing so would alienate the rather insignificant minority of purists who play the game simply for the love of the genre and realistic gameplay as it exists within the general framework of playability.
Zazen
-
That would cure it alright, you'd see no more bombers in AH.
-
I like it hub. We also need wind of verying speed and direction per altitude. Also, some overcast skies over bases.
Bombing is just to easy now IMO.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
That would cure it alright, you'd see no more bombers in AH.
If 15 players can up 15 formations of B24's then those same 15 guys can up 15 B24's for their pork fest.
Your telling me you really need 45 B24s to take out a few fields?
-
bnut huw will i kill the bigg bowts if i dnot have all thr bombers two dive wiv?? :confused: :mad:
-
Originally posted by Clifra Jones
If 15 players can up 15 formations of B24's then those same 15 guys can up 15 B24's for their pork fest.
Your telling me you really need 45 B24s to take out a few fields?
I don't fly bombers, but even I can see the gaping hole in this.
How often do you see 15 bombs up at once?
All I ever see is one formation at a time. The MA is not nearly that structured.
-
The myth that even the old system was difficult is laughable. Despite the protesting, bombing is in no way difficult. Bombing is incredibly easy; avoiding the hundreds of angry fighters who will be more than happy to sacrifice themselves to kill even one bomber is the difficult part.
There are still some squads that wing up in bombers, and missions involving many forms of bombers. Typically, they don't bother calibrating well, and I'd wager that 75% of the ordnance dropped from above 1k falls well away from the intended target.
The whole point is to reduce the dramatic effects of the suicidal bomber guys, Karnak. The bombers who know what they're doing won't be all that inconvenienced.
I'll concede that Zazen makes a good point, but I just don't think he should be shafting those of us who like fighters and jabo's(the crowd he originally lured in, and who've supported the company for years) just to make more money. I don't want to run the buff pilots out, but they've gotten more compromises and crutches than they really need.
-
1) I found the old system easy, so long as I didn't have to deal with fighters at the same time as I calibrated.
2) Any fighter in AH is a lethal threat to a bomber. I have downed B-17s in the C.202, A single bomber has no prayer of making it through.
2a) As a single bomber has no hope of making it, bombers will cease to exist in the MA.
-
Originally posted by hubsonfire
The myth that even the old system was difficult is laughable. Despite the protesting, bombing is in no way difficult. Bombing is incredibly easy; avoiding the hundreds of angry fighters who will be more than happy to sacrifice themselves to kill even one bomber is the difficult part.
There are still some squads that wing up in bombers, and missions involving many forms of bombers. Typically, they don't bother calibrating well, and I'd wager that 75% of the ordnance dropped from above 1k falls well away from the intended target.
The whole point is to reduce the dramatic effects of the suicidal bomber guys, Karnak. The bombers who know what they're doing won't be all that inconvenienced.
I'll concede that Zazen makes a good point, but I just don't think he should be shafting those of us who like fighters and jabo's(the crowd he originally lured in, and who've supported the company for years) just to make more money. I don't want to run the buff pilots out, but they've gotten more compromises and crutches than they really need.
Ok Hubs, Take away the formation, no problem. No more dive
bombing lancs or b-17s, never did myself and not sure if I ever
saw it done but Ok no more. Bombing from F6 only, great lets
do it. Old calibration method worked just fine, lets go back to
it. I am all for "Historical Accuracy".
But if you are going to limit the bombers to your version of
"Historical Accuracy" then how about some "Historical Accuracy"
for the targets. Like, restore full damage effects at airfields, Fuel dumps burning, no gas for planes, refineries wiped out, limited
fuel available at airfields and VH's. Ammo dumps destroyed, no
bullets for the machine guns, aa guns or tanks. Runway cratered
learn to take off from the grass. Its all for "Historical Accuracy"
after all.
Mike
aka BTMe62
-
Karnak, I've noticed a slight... issue... with bombers recently. The lower your fps while attacking one, the more potent any hits become from the bomber. That is, if you have 10 fps or less when attacking you are more likely to be seriously damaged by a bomber. I got a single ping from a single B24 and because I had such bad fps at the time that single ping blew my oil, killed my engine, gave me a PW, and disabled my nose guns all at once. Had I any better fps, I think that single ping would not have done as much damage. (call it a hunch)
Considering that AH is going the way of fps-guzzling games, more people are going to have worse and worse fps, so there might be a side-effect whereby bombers have MORE of a punch than they did even in AH1.
On the other hand, later the same day I had better FPS ni a different part of the map and took out a B26 in a few pings (and then fired 90% of a 190D's ammo into the drone (now flown by hte pilot) to no effect anywhere save for a little smoke in one engine).
So I don't buy that bombers would be too easy to kill. Bad FPS coupled with super tough damage coad in ALL areas except the cockpit make them 90% impossible to kill unless you have a front-angle attack. Which, when you're chasing one, isn't easy to find!! :P
-
On one hand, I like your suggestion because it brings us back to the way bombers used to be handled.
Yet on the other, this is just another step in the fighter guys getting closer to eliminating what they despise...bombers. Bombers blow strategic targets up that, yes, will effect their furball, vulchfest, etc. We ruin their fun and clearly, rather than intercept the bombers, lets just sing a chorus of whines and insist they be hindered, shut down or eliminated completely.
I wish such a vocal minority would jump at the One-Ping-Ack issue! Or about the increased lethality the puffy ack has lately..or any other anomaly!
It makes no difference what HTC does to the bombers, complaints will persist. As a bomber guy, I see the complaints all the time. Joe Niki Dweeb says buffs guns are too powerful. Nevermind he sat on my buff's 6'oclock at a distance of 600 ft and made a very tasty target. Nope, cant be his bad tactics...its always...always the buff's fault.
And quite frankly, its a song thats getting tiring to listen to.
-
Okay, regarding the 'historical accuracy'. Bringing back the strat system that failed to do anything but have a negative affect on gameplay has nothing to do with historical accuracy. It was just a simple means by which one player can prevent another player from enjoying the game. I really don't get too wound up about accuracy when it comes to little cartoon planes. But nearly every tactic that's criticized is defended with some guise of 'historical accuracy', be it porking, dive bombing lancasters, or horde warfare, so I added that, somewhat facetiously.
I'm not trying to eliminate bombers, as you guys claim. I'm trying to eliminate a spiteful, talentless tactic using a ridiculous method with the sole goal of denying other players the opportunity to enjoy the game.
Although you make an attempt to sidetrack this thread, sitting 600 off a bomber formation puts you just outside their convergence, meaning you're parking under a hail of precision guided 50cals, as many as 12 if you're in a low 6oc position. That's not a bomber 'feature', that's just being stupid.
The complaints of the negative affect on gameplay are valid; just popping in here to say "I'm tired of this whine" doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. Ya know what, I know the bomber guys who enjoy ****ing up the game for others wouldn't like my ideas. I'm not really concerned with the kneejerk "this idea sux" responses.
If anyone else has any relevant comments, ideas, or suggestions regarding my suggestions, they are encouraged to respond.
-
You applaud my input then slam me for sounding like a whine.
You're missing the point.
So long as fighters outnumber the buffs they do, fighter guys will continue to be peeved that the buffs have any abilities.
You want solo bombers again minus the laser site? Ok, sure! Let's try it. Want formations, perk em. Be nice to use my perks on something asides an overpriced jet bomber.
-
The core of the problem as I see it is the same problem we had with fuel porking. One Bomber jock can single-handedly ruin the fun for potentially 50+ people. A single bomber with nothing other than free-time at his disposal can take a base completely down. If done from good altitude he is at very minimal risk of dying. This presents a severe gameplay balance issue. It presents the same issues the single jabo did when he could bring a base to 25% fuel or when a single buff could bring a country's HQ down for 3 hours. These problems were rectified to a large extent. Now this problem needs to be rectified also.
Some solutions for this specific issue:
1) Spread Fighter Hangers out alot more, so they are not killable in one pass.
2) Add more Fighter Hangers to all field sizes.
3) Make Fighter Hangers Harder
4) Make all field strats harder.
5) Make puffy ack far more dangerous/deadly to high altitude, large, slow moving targets and less so to fast, small, low level targets.
6) Do as hub recommended to end the Dive Bombing Heavies, this is rediculous.
Do all those things and you wouldn't need to change the siting and aiming dynamics as they are now, which is incredible simplistic. Defensive gun and formations could be left in. Ironically, doing the things on the above list would actually make bombers MORE important, as they would be more valuable relative to jabo's to take down harder strats. People will want to escort their bombers more instead of hating them for ruining a budding fight in one pass.
When they added the bomber formations they didn't harden field strats proportionally, so now what took 1 bomber 3 passes takes a formation 1 pass. What took 3 bombers pilots working together now takes 1 bomber pilot alone. It's simply out of wack from an effort to effect on gameplay perspective.
Zazen
-
Ultimately, to solve EVERY problem involving buffs, the bombers should be given a worthy target to go after.
...
Airfield targets are basically tactical.
They reup very quickly, and don't have any kind of real impact on the game on a long term basis. Situation revolving around a hot-spot changes by the minute, and by the time a really dedicated pilot gets his buff to alt, everything has already changed.
Thus, currently, as I've said before, buffs aren't really used as buffs at all. They are but over-bloated jabos. The only reason people use buffs in the game is because most fighter pilots are too lazy to go bomb stuff themselves, or too pathetic in bombing skills to hit the target with just one or two bombs.
...
But what if a strategical target was given?
For example, something like a fuel refinery which, when bombed on a large scale, would reduce the entire fuel load for all the airfields in that "zone" on a universal scale? A large facility, which takes many many hours to be "replenished"... but also takes a lot of payload to make a dent on it?
Imagine that every strat "zone" has one of these fuel refineries.
When the fuel refinery is functioning 100% all the airfields are enabled drop tanks and full fuel load.
When it is functioning under 100% the DT option is disabled at fields.... and after that its functionality will directly correspond to the airfield fuel load - ie) if the refinery is damaged and functioning at 75% or less, then the airfields in that zone have only 75% fuel.
But, to damage this fuel refinery by 10%, it will take something like 50,000lbs payload.
To damage it by 30% it will take about 3.5 Lancaster formations (11~12 Lancasters) worth of payload dropped on the facility.
...
Now, if there was ever a target like that;
* deep inside enemy territory
* immediate impact on the entire front
* dire consequences involved if not protected
* takes enormous amounts of payload to damage, thus small scale fighter jabo missions won't even scratch it
* long term effect, once it is damaged
Then the buff pilots will finally have what they are looking for - a worthy target to go after. They won't ever have to go strike airfield targets again.
Just like fighter pilots group up and go fight in furballs, all the enthusiastic buff lovers in a country can gather and form big, historic formations, and go after a target that really matters.
And an important target too, which is worth the effort, not reupping in like 15 minutes....
If there was a target like that, I'd do a lot more bombing. I'd also love to gather people and form up large formations, and grab some real altitude. That kind of a serious target for buffs, is worth the effort, and it wouldn't feel like a waste of time.
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
The core of the problem as I see it is the same problem we had with fuel porking. One Bomber jock can single-handedly ruin the fun for potentially 50+ people. A single bomber with nothing other than free-time at his disposal can take a base completely down. If done from good altitude he is at very minimal risk of dying. This presents a severe gameplay balance issue. It presents the same issues the single jabo did when he could bring a base to 25% fuel or when a single buff could bring a country's HQ down for 3 hours. These problems were rectified to a large extent. Now this problem needs to be rectified also.
Some solutions for this specific issue:
1) Spread Fighter Hangers out alot more, so they are not killable in one pass.
2) Add more Fighter Hangers to all field sizes.
3) Make Fighter Hangers Harder
4) Make all field strats harder.
5) Make puffy ack far more dangerous/deadly to high altitude, large, slow moving targets and less so to fast, small, low level targets.
6) Do as hub recommended to end the Dive Bombing Heavies, this is rediculous.
Zazen
1) Only field this affects now is the Med sized one, dont know why it wasn't changed when the Small one was.
2) No comment
3) No comment
4) Not harder, but should only be killable by rock and eggs (Ditto CV)
5) NO - make it deadlier to ALL low/high and fast/slow. Add more to a field, and make it harder to kill.
6) F6 bombing only.
-
heres a possible solution
keep formations
but......
make it so you have to have 2 other people attached to you who have control of the bomb sight/guns in the other bombers in the formation
this will still allow the drones to follow your flight movement and decrease bombing accuracy if some isnt that good at bombing :)
-
Originally posted by Karnak
I don't fly bombers, but even I can see the gaping hole in this.
How often do you see 15 bombs up at once?
All I ever see is one formation at a time. The MA is not nearly that structured.
You obviously are a Nite then, 'cause if you were a Bish you'd have seen this several times over the last few maps. It's becoming a common practice with the Rooks lately.
-
Hubsonfire wrote
"bringing back the strat system that failed to do anything but have a negative affect on gameplay has nothing to do with historical accuracy. It was just a simple means by which one player can prevent another player from enjoying the game."
I am not a total buff player, I do like to buff though. I will most likely join a buff mission with lots of bombers in it. Why? Because I like to look out and see all those formations flying together. Being raised in the 60's I was facinated by the movie "twelve o'clock high" and the tv series based on the movie.
So in essence, by suggesting to take away bomber formation capabilities wouldnt you be one player advocating the prevention of another player from enjoying the game?
Muttman
Sick Puppies
-
Originally posted by Clifra Jones
You obviously are a Nite then, 'cause if you were a Bish you'd have seen this several times over the last few maps. It's becoming a common practice with the Rooks lately.
Well, I've seen it from all countries Clifra and generally enjoy trying to setup for a high speed pass through a mass of bombers... that's after the "holy chit" :eek: factor has worn off.
I know you were present in that swirling mess of bombers and jets (13 formations of B24s and at least eight Me163s and/or 262s) Sunday over Bish HQ. That's just our standard squad night and we will always have at least eight formations up (as tightly as possible). So it's always been common for us.
The jets actually did prevent enough bombers from dropping their loads to save HQ from going down on our strike. It was actually some low 110s (after I watched the film) which apparently cashed in on the soft building.
-
Hi Alpo
What you did not see was that lone B24 formation at 24,000 feet, I put all of my payload on the HQ and got the HQ destroyed message. I was late to the show, do to a loss of host connection
Dhawk Flying Tigers.
-
You want all these problems to disapear?
You want bombers to go away? (I don't but if you do)
Solution.
Make it so that the FHs cannot be killed. Lets see if anyone bothers to get in a buff and hit the strategic targets they claim the fly for. Lets see if anyone ups to hit the Town or the VH. My guess, you will never see another buff over a field. Just a few here and there hiting the refineries and the CVs.
-
Theres no real use for bombers other than just bombing a field level since there are planes that can take down a town nearly by itself and another that can disable a field.
The strat targets aren't, I haven't noticed anything if and when they are hit. Perhaps its time for actual plane factories near the HQ, say 5, one for spits, 109s, P-51s, 190s, and LAs. Those planes are pretty much the standard in the MA. Having these heavily defended factories will make bombers useful to have since any low-level attack would be suicidal with the amount of guns defending it.
Have radar stations throughout the country, not at the fields.
See what I mean? Give a reason for the bombers to exist other than bombing airfields.
As for the formation of bombers, I'd say get rid of them the way things are in the MA, if the above applied, keep the formations.
-
Originally posted by LePaul
Want formations, perk em. Be nice to use my perks on something asides an overpriced jet bomber.
Can't believe I missed this one. Certainly contrary to my ideals, but a valid counterpoint. Unfortunately, barring the implimentation of the other ideas, it would almost have to be prohibitively high, but it's not like the B-29 is ever gonna be added, so an alternate use for perks would be nice.
Chef, don't take my ire at general bomber tactics personally, I'm just getting a bit irked at the affect the mob is having when using them.
-
Muttman, I'm not one guy trying to prevent 50 others from flying. I'm one guy trying to prevent 1 other guy from having the ability to keep 50+ from flying.
God help me, I agree with Zazen and Kweassa on most of their points. Maybe a robust, well thought out strat system and some changes to bombers would solve a lot of the gameplay issues, but there will always be certain guys using lancasters as divebombers, and those types are certainly having the negative impact that they should not be able to. To keep those guys at bay, we'd have to make changes to the field objects as well.
The old strat system sucked, and the new strat and additions to bombers looked good initially. The effects on gameplay are far beyond what I ever imagined upon their release, and I just want that negated.
Appreciate your feedback and suggestions, even though you are divebombing, hording, porking, vulching, furballing, tonka tank-ing dweebs.
-
simple solutions:
- make bomb relase for level bomber possible only from bombardier position
- for each type of bombers give possibility to add one more drone for 2-7 perks, and give possibility to "buy" up to 3-7? additional drones.Thats can make not 3 but up to 9 bombers in formation.
that can give reason to spend bomber perks not only for ar234 but to fell yourself more safe during bomb run. Hey i can loose 8 planes and still land.
Of course thats give possibilyty of flatting town in one pass, but...nothing more
-
Hub,
Point taken.
I dont see the bombers being a huge issue as of late. Yes, the ones that use buffs as oversized P-47 JABOs annoy me as well.
What annoys be is the suicide Typhoons that dive in, kill ordinance and troops, then auger.
For a bomber to knock down all the fighter hangars, as spread out as they are, is something I simply do not see a lot of.
-
Remove bombers from frontline fields.
-
Originally posted by Messiah
Remove bombers from frontline fields.
I would think this may be difficult to implement, especially with our sometimes fast moving fronts.
Also what happens when one side gets a sneak capture deep in enemy territory?
-
I agree whole heartedly with giving the bombers a worthy stategic target. It would solve many problems.
As for not seeing multiple bomber formations? If your a Bish then you have been on the reciving end of many 3-6 formation bomber missions, curtesy of myself and other dedicated Rook bombers. To take that experience away would be a mistake, we love looking back and seeing 15 bombers in a massive formation, trying to stay close to ward off fighters. That makes the realism level for us go way up as well as fun.
Maybe fighter guys don't realize how long it takes to get to the proper alt and speed, it is quite an investment for us, only to be shot down right before the target. But I am not complianing, fighting off fighters is part of the realism that makes it fun.
Should we make it easier for the fighter guys to kil us? No! If I go for a HQ raid or a deep startegic target, I will be spending an hour or more getting there. It is a onetime shot for me and I usually get downed before the target, but thats alright, its the game. A fighter can up and attack and land while following me by upping at the next base... 2-3 fighter guys working together to stop bombers is all it takes, just as 2-3 bomber guys are working together. The problem is not that bombers are too powerful or that they have too many planes, it is that nobody wants to try and stop them! It is not very hard to do.
Now as for dive bombing in buffs, I never do it or agree with it. I also agree and understand the fighters guys complianing about us taking out FH and ruining the fun...and I agree that it shouldn't be done unless a group is attempting a base capture...
So any new ideas? How about we make the jabo less effective, then the bombers would be apperciated at fields. But untimatly that idea about making worthwhile strategic targets was the best, then we can all stay out of each others hair.
-
Soften up ordinanance and the VH at fields. Bombers near the front can be disabled and the onslaught of GV's protecting a capture can be stopped but the base can be captured with enough people.
The increased puffy ack lethality is not the answer to the subject question. However, it is an answer on how to drive people out of the game.
Regards,
Malta
-
We have a bombing "crisis" ?
-
Interesting...removing bombers from frontline fields...
See, any bomber guy worth his salt is going to search for a base a good distance away...and with a alt advantage to reduce climb time.
I agree with you, Pong...I dont target Fighter Hangars unless its part of a capture oppritunity.
-
As for 1 guy killing all the hangers at a base, the V bases and the medium air fields are the only bases I can currently kill all FH / VH's in 1 pass. If I have enough ord I can take out FH's on a small field in 2. and for large fields I would need another guy to go with, I can currently take down 5 FH's on those fields if I can get the correct angle on them but need another guy to finish the last 2. I don't see alot of people taking the time to kill the large fields like this so I think they are fine. :) But I will admit the medium fields are kinda easy targets.
As for the (I'm ruining your fun) statement I never intentionally set out to ruin anyones fun by killing hangers. I usually do this for
A. trying to keep fighters down for a capture.
or
B. tyring to give one of my bases a break for 15 min that is being swamped with nmy planes.
And I'll say again DIVE BOMBING B24's, LANC's, B17's and B26's is just stupid I'll let the KI67 go because it was used historicly as an explosive laden suicide plane. and it has a rellitivly small bomb load.
I do like the idea of makeing some kind of target for bombers that actually meant something. The problem with the current factory/city strat we have is more of a gratification problem.
If you bomb a factory yeah the buildings go boom thats great but it dosn't mean anything unless someone is taking out the corasponding strat on the fields and I rarelly see this happen. and if it did we would then see the whines about people porking all the bases. :)
On the other hand if a guy in bombers takes out the FH's on a field he can instantly see the effect.... fighters are disabled for 15 min and that particular pilot feels he/she has done something that affected the game if only for those few minuits.
I personally would like to do more factory porking with my bombers but most of the time it rarelly pays to try flying the sometimes long distance in a slow plane to hit a target that doesn't have much effect on the game.
Oh yes on the calibration being to easy I totally agree, I personally liked the old meathod but according to Pyro they had a talk with people that went to the con and I'm guessing some credit has to go to complaints on this forum and decided it needed to be easier.
So I guess we just have to accept that we are stuck with easy mode.
-
"Appreciate your feedback and suggestions, even though you are divebombing, hording, porking, vulching, furballing, tonka tank-ing dweebs."
Common hub, I hope that wasnt a personal attack, didnt take it that way but still hope it wasnt.
I, to the best of my recollection, have never dive bombed (unless in a dive bomber). I have been known to go low alt missions. That mostly due to the fact that my squad prefers to do that more often in bombers. I prefer the high alt method. I like big formations. I like it so much that I may consider moving over to the rooks to join in some of those big missions...but why against the bishops, go for the knights to and I will gladly (maybe) switch sides for a mission.
:p
Muttman
Sick Puppies
-
Bombers need formations or nobody would use them. Isnt that why they were made in the first place?
What I would like to see is the end of salvo options. Just dump all at once at a realistic delay, and harden the bldgs. That way the bombers still have a chance, but the sniping of structures is gone.
-
Originally posted by elc7367b
"Appreciate your feedback and suggestions, even though you are divebombing, hording, porking, vulching, furballing, tonka tank-ing dweebs."
Common hub, I hope that wasnt a personal attack, didnt take it that way but still hope it wasnt.
:p
Muttman
Sick Puppies
If you're playing a cartoon airplane game, or arguing about one, you're a dweeb. :p
I had composed a long post explaining, in even more painfully boring detail, exactly why I started this, and why I support changes to bombers and field strat, but then the intardnet got borked, and it was lost. My beer grows warmer by the moment, so I'll try again later. @#$*&%
-
I said it once, twice, 50 times...............Does the community want a GAME or a SIM
You can not continue to try and mate the two, it does not work.
-
It doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. The game could include many aspects of a simulation, while still being loosely structured and fun for all. Unfortunately, lately, fun for a few means denying fun to the many. They shouldn't have this power.
Regarding forms: In the past, before formations, if I flew in a bomber mission, it was with my squad, or with guys I knew to be competent bombers. Even a single heavy carries enough for a hangar, if it's salvoed correctly and accurately. Formations were added with the idea that bombs would fall randomly, and the added firepower for defensive purposes, and tonnage offensively, would help keep the bombers a viable selection. Then, after the crying, the marginally more difficult calibration routine was dropped for 1 just slightly 1 step in difficulty beyond the green crosshair of the TA. Before formations, we had to drop accurately, communicate, and anyone not in the pipe on their run needed to be looking out for inbound fighters. Nowadays, it's some ******* in a form of lancs 1k off the deck, able to obliterate a field due to several compromises and steps backward from a more balanced setup. Give bombers a relevant target (for instance, make field strat rely on local depots and cities, and have them rely on larger strat factories located farther from the front. At present, the strat factories are useful only for scorepadding, and the field strats are ridiculousy easy targets.
Anyway, this beer's empty, and I'm gonna see if the MA is working or not (the whole bomber issue is somewhat irrelevant without a working arena :eek: ). Cheers.
-
I agree wholeheartedly with you that the strategic element of the game is missing. I havent been here long enough to see just the one plane bomber but was here with the older "more difficult" bombing method. I didnt seem to have a problem with that method and didnt understand the need for a change. Well, on second thought, I understand why it was changed but didnt like it.
As far as the existing strats, could someone enlighten me as to their value. I have been working under the notion that if the strat, whatever it is, is damaged or destroyed then the ability of those items to recover at the field was diminished. Is this not so?
If it is so, to what amount is the recovery time attributed if the strats are damaged or destroyed?
Muttman
Sick Puppies
-
I dont bother with the major strats as I dont think they matter much. Trouble with strats is...on one hand they hamper the enemy...on the other hand the players dont want to be hampered. Whadda ya do?
-
Granted, I'm relatively new, but I have experience with the old AW bombing sights and long, all-night milkruns to the capital. I like this bombing setup we have. It's more "hands-on," not just point and click.
The formations are something fun that add some extra insurance that you'll get home and land your 2.5 perks for obliterating an airfield, town and killing 15 GVs! :D
I also REALLY like the idea of big, industrial targets for the strat bombers to target, rather than pumping a few thousand pounds onto a field and "ruining" everyone else's fun.
Also, I've noticed since I began that people like to bomb FHs when a vultch is on or VHs in tanktown and it always had me scratching my head. "WTF are the Fun Police doing that for?" I would often wonder. And then it hit me when I porked the VHs in tank town: Spawn campers! You spawn 12 times trying to run for the city to enjoy a tank battle and get offed each time by Dw33b1, you get mad... then you grab a B-24 and you get even!
The porking of the fighter hangers, I don't know; I've only seen new players doing this because they don't know, people trying for a field capture or someone who's drunk dropping them to see the "perty cloud."
-
one thing that I havent heard anyone talk about yet is ....Smoke Pots. When ever a bombing formation was sighted all likely bases and targets popped smoke to obscure the bombing accuracy. As far as Dive bombing buffs, I say only make it so that, as many have already stated, they can only release when level. To the best of my limited knowledge you could not release eggs unless you were level. What I mean by this is that gravity took effect and could/would cause the eggs to jam and not release. Also; I am not so sure that you could salvo eggs in rl anyway so they, the dive bombing buff freaks, would have to release, If it would let them release, all or nothing. Just my two cents worth, but I think it would help if not solve the problem.:D:aok
PS perk the formations!!! only good pilots would be able to use them.
-
I just thought of something else that the smoke pots would be good for. Frame rates. With all that smoke it would have to interfere with any frame rate around it, ie the dive bombing buff jerky boys. Now I do realize that would also hinder ALL pilots in the area but might be worth it.
-
Good point about the smoke pots. Let's also not forget that in real life there would not be a few puffy-acks firing at you, there would be dozens or hundreds, depending on your target, and dozens of fighters screaming in at you from all levels, cutting through your formation, mixing with your escorts. I've heard it said that fighter escorts spent more time avoiding pieces of bombers and fighters than they did other fighters, but that's another post entirely...
The dive-bombing buff thing would not work in real life, at all. Look at the inner bombays on those things; the bombs are not attached to the aircraft as with dive bombers. They are nestled within. Any attempt at dive and release would cause the ordance to impact the inside the bay, rather than the ground. Then there's gravity to contend with, as already stated... It'd be a mess, in which the tiny shreds of humanity left over from 733tBuff! would be scooped into doggie bags and sent home.
I love bombing here, when I get to the targets. I remember spending hours during Air Warrior flying from A-land to C-land capital to come back with 100k points for milkruns... only to up just as soon as I land to do it again without the threat of fighters. Used to take the whole squad sometimes in two or three B-17s, just in case, and to pad all of our scores! Can't really do that here for many reasons, not the least of all is that there is currently no target WORTH upping an all-night and into the morning raid. Those who do anyway, God speed...
Because of the lack of targets, even though I would rather be in the air for an hour or two bombing the crap out of the Bishops or Knights rather than getting the "You Died, Dweeb" message every five minutes, I stick to fighters. Unless I get spawn-camped a lot. Then I join the fun police and toolshed!:D
-
Originally posted by Krusty
Karnak, I've noticed a slight... issue... with bombers recently. The lower your fps while attacking one, the more potent any hits become from the bomber. That is, if you have 10 fps or less when attacking you are more likely to be seriously damaged by a bomber. I got a single ping from a single B24 and because I had such bad fps at the time that single ping blew my oil, killed my engine, gave me a PW, and disabled my nose guns all at once. Had I any better fps, I think that single ping would not have done as much damage. (call it a hunch)
Considering that AH is going the way of fps-guzzling games, more people are going to have worse and worse fps, so there might be a side-effect whereby bombers have MORE of a punch than they did even in AH1.
On the other hand, later the same day I had better FPS ni a different part of the map and took out a B26 in a few pings (and then fired 90% of a 190D's ammo into the drone (now flown by hte pilot) to no effect anywhere save for a little smoke in one engine).
So I don't buy that bombers would be too easy to kill. Bad FPS coupled with super tough damage coad in ALL areas except the cockpit make them 90% impossible to kill unless you have a front-angle attack. Which, when you're chasing one, isn't easy to find!! :P
Youre right Krusty. When your FPS go very low, the game doesn't draw hit sprites, tracer smoke and explosion animations. I have seen it myself off-line and on-line on my FE.
Falcon
-
The only "crisis" I see with the bombing is the dive bombing heavies.
Other then that I dont see the bombers as being a problem.
the only problem I see is people unwilling to defend their base well enough to kill the bombers before they trash a feild.
In which case they are helping to create the very problem they complain about.
Yea maybe the FH's should be spread out more. But how long are the FH's down? 15 min?
If 15 min is long enough to "ruin" your fun you really dont have time to play and should be off folding laundry or whatever other chore it is you wife wants you to do.
-
I dont buy that there is a crisis.
Lets be honest -- 90% of the people complaining about buff "lasers" (present company excluded) havent figured out that the slow approach from dead 6 o'clock is a mite... dangerous.
I'm far from a vet, especially in fighter v fighter, but I can kill buff formations almost at will when I remain disciplined and use the historical scissor-style attack profile. Usually, though, by the third plane I get impatient and hang ...just...a...little...too... long in the 6 position. There are some gunners who are dangerous at laser ranges, but they are by far in the minority. When smart, I leave them alone.
If changes were to come, I'd suggest 2 simple things.
1) Make bombs droppable only in the bombsight position. I cant think of ANY reason why it should be different for historically level bombers. This restriction should have NO impact on newbies and shouldnt touch HTC's bottom line. I'd wager most dive bombing buff drivers are opportunistic, not new, anyway.
2) If necessary, SLIGHTLY widen the 50 cal dispersion cone to simulate the buff's vibrating gun platform. 50's shouldnt fire the same from a turret as from a fixed position anyway.
However, if buff survivability drops too much, the loss of in-air buffs may impact the newbs in an unexpected way: when I first started, I liked shooting at buffs because I could hit those large, slow, unmaneuverable targets. I'd bet HTC doesnt want to take that hook away...
-
As pointed out here and at various times by many over the years, myself included -- Strategic targets that make a difference.
One idea. A central zone factory(ies). if its at 100 percent, airfields are virtually undamagable in that zone. Once damaged, ordinance used at non-factory targets has the same level of strength as the damage level of the factory. Factory damaged 20 percent, bombs and rockets have 20 percent of their effectiveness in that zone. Factory damaged 100 percent, ordinance has 100 percent.
Adjust factory defenses to discourage low and medium altitude attack, but make it easy to attack if above 15K or so using carrier-like direct fire and puffy ack. Adjust rebuild times and damage requirements to fine tune gameplay issues.
Results, IMO:
1. Realistic strategic bombing profiles.
2. A realistic opportunity for "historical" interceptions (you know there will be some action since there has to be some action for the landgrab)
3. A more dispersed battlefield/less hordes. Gameplay beyond numbers, calling for cooperation and coordination.
4. No ultimate loss in any existing type of gameplay, from jabo to furball.
Charon
-
come on now its not like bish and rooks dont go around porkin troops for more then 5 sectors like thats not stopin us from havin fun and its not just troops there is ords as well. i dont care what yall want to do about bombers i can bomb both ways but to me this sounds like a bunch of yall cryin over some stupid stuff not to affend any of you gents but let it go HTC is not going to change the way bombin is done
-
Originally posted by Charon
As pointed out here and at various times by many over the years, myself included -- Strategic targets that make a difference.
Here is the idea I came up with and posted in the "Wishlist" section
The only problem with Heavier strat targets is the same problem with Strat Targets now. They need to have a greater effect on gameplay to make them worthwhile to bomb.
As it stands now alot of people for the most part only bomb the strats to milkrun and improve their Bomber ranking.
The problem if they make them have a greater effect on gameplay is you will then have people using the age old whine of "you ruined my fun" (God forbid they ever try to protect their fun by defending)
But here is an idea.
Since we have reduced price for some of the perked planes Lets have factories for perked planes which can be directly effected by bombing.
Something along the lines of what Air Warrior had for spits only there woould be several different kinds.
Completely destroy the Tank Factory and Tigers become unavailable. Same thing with 262's Tempests etc etc.
Take it a step further
We can tie them into the ENY system so that the less numbers a player has the more it has to be destroyed to make perked planes unavailable.
Lets say with somewhat even sides a factory would only have to be 50% destroyed to deny that particular perked item. As numbers become more imbalanced the side with the least numbers would have to have more of its factory destroyed to loose access to perked items upto and including 100%
Doing it this way would help counter some of the horde as more of the hording sides resources (players) would be needed to completely destroy these facilities.
Having a seperate factory for each perked item would help assure that not all items would be denied at the same time. And even farther drain the hording sides resources
Keep the rebuild time at say 20 min so as to keep from having any particular item supressed for an unreasonable amount of time.
This would give buff drivers something useful to bomb and something for the fighters might want to try to defend.
In AW if someone was going after the Spt factory peopel would try to defend it cause they wanted the spits.
Here if someone goes after the oil refinery people most dont really care. And only slightly more people care if they are going after HQ
Another idea might be to have factories for these items by zone.
that is each country having several facories spread out over the map. Obliterate that factory and no perked item will be available in that zone.
Again. gives buff pilots somethign usefull to do and give the fighter jocks something important to defend
-
interesting thread.
The best answer I heard was filths.
1) Make it so the bombers have to drop then entire bomb load upon release.
2) Next best answer would be F6 release only.
This would probably take very little on HTC part to implment these, but that is only my guess. and if both were done would not impact a bomber pilots enjoyment signifigantly and would probably not drive the fighter only guys so crazy.
Dropping the entire load, would force carpet bombing and in its self would seem more realistic. Perhaps a compromise could be Half Load drops. Yes, Furballs are still going to be made when a dozen B17s arrive overhead and flatten the place.
F6 only release does hinder the gamey divebombing of Heavies. Of course something like JU88 was used as a Jabo and should still have that option.
Building a new strat system would be a down the road thing. It probably would take a bit to do and would probably require total rebuilds of terain and such.
-
I got a solution ..........fly your fighters as well as we fly our bombers!
then the guy who shoots you down ..fighter or bomber pilot!
a little more class is always refreshing!
Cheriooo..... friends and foes!
999000
-
After reading only half of this thread i would ike to put in my 1 cent since my 2 cents isnt worTH it. I see a couple of sides to all of this.Porking fhs is Know different as porking ords in which many nights there isnt ords for sectors,taking them down is in no way shape of Or form any different than vulching i guess.As to dive bombing many o thread about this suggest arming bombs only level and at a certain altitude.But dumping formation i do not like imo and it is only my opinion kinda takes a buff to the waste basket everyone plays for diff reasons but the game is a base takeing to win reset format so buffs will be needed i do not think fighters would all like to take heavys to base to take base. Hub doesnt have bad ideas but niether does half the games paying players.perk the bombs move the hangers arm level add more ack this is always going to be a issue o and by the way i have never jumped from buff to buff to gun maybe i need to try it lol
i think the real solution is denying 1 guy disabling a base but then we need to discuss denying 1 guy the ability to pork ords and cap the base!!!! ok im done rambling now you can critisize my typing =]