Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Fury on April 01, 2001, 09:19:00 AM
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http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/01/china.usnavy/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/01/china.usnavy/index.html)
A U.S. Navy patrol aircraft has been forced to make an emergency landing in China after what officials describe as a "minor" mid-air collision with a Chinese fighter jet.
Sounds like they need icons in real life.
Fury
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Well... if he hit him, he was close enough even without icons. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think this is the Chinese F-8:
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/f-8.jpg)
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Sounds like the Chinese AF need to learn how to fly. Morons.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-01-2001).]
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Think intentional downing. Think innocuous way to get your hands on a surveillance plane. Think it might be a non accident. Since it happened over international waters it might be a clever way to get the plane and crew on their turn without the nasty messy method of shooting it.
Mav
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Take a pretty ballsy guy to intentionally mid-air Mav.
Not that there has been enough information released to determine who did what to whom anyway. We probably never will the the straight scoops anyway.
Things have a way of getting out of hand fast in deals like that. Somebody means to give somebody a little tap with the wingtip (idiot idea anyway) and the guy getting tapped picks that moment to jink...suddenly it's not a little tap anymore.
I suspect this was just a mid-air. I doubt ANYONE wants to mix aluminum at altitude and speed.
I've has Sweeds nestled between my engine pods on both wings of the RC-135 for 5 minutes at a time. Remarkably steady and remarkably smooth and very entertaining...but you can bet I was damn careful not to make any sudden moves too! They really did a neat "dismount" too..I gave them a 9.9.
It was cool...but they had everyone's attention.
Just my .02.
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Sweeds, Toad? Do you mean Swedes? Vegetable or person? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, I really can't see how anyone would intentionally ram another plane. Unless they happen to be British, however, and the only thing between a V2 and a suburb of London is your Tempest.
That must have taken a huge pair of big brassy ones. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/02/china.aircollision.04/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/02/china.aircollision.04/index.html)
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/01/china.us.willy/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/01/china.us.willy/index.html)
Wonder how hot this will get?
It's funny that a prop driven plane can intentionally crash into a jet. At least that's what China says. I wonder how close those jets needed to be to trail the prop plane?
Of course each side will blame the other, so we'll never be able to figure which one is the true story.
Hope China enjoys the free gifts they get from the plane. Does anyone really think that no Chinese officials will board the plane?
It's also pretty strange they have not allowed any contact with the crew.
Fury
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Fury, not strange at all, they're communists.
Call me paranoid, but I'm sure all 24 crew members are getting thoroughly relieved of and and all information of what type of mission they were doing.
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Dear Dowding,
Thank you for correcting my misspelling of "Swedes" in my previous post. As you know this is just more "proof positive" that I am nothing but an uneducated, illiterate, USA-centric Yank that knows nothing of the rest of the world.
I will try to do better.
BTW, did you ever notice that by simply transposing the last "d" and "e" when quickly typing "Swedes" you can turn it into "Sweeds"?
Of course, that’s not what I did. I am indeed "an uneducated, illiterate, USA-centric Yank that knows nothing of the rest of the world."
Thanks ever so for correcting me!
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Lighten up Toad, I was just pulling your chain.
You seriously think I was trying to 'get' at you for spelling?!
For Christ's sake.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Well I'm sure it was not an intentional collision.
When I was in the USAF in the early `80's I was stationed at Seymour Johnson AFB in Goldsboro, NC and we had an incident that involved one of our F4's and a private tour AC.
It seems that our F4's were sent out to chase off the private plane because it was getting to close to our air space and one of the F4 pilots decided to buzz the private AC just for the fun of it. Well it was a little foggy and the F4 pilot misjudged the distance and ran into the private AC killing all 6 people onboard. The F4 made it back to base with a tore up wing.
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The mid-air was probably a result of the Chinese pilot getting sloppy while playing a game of "chicken" with the EP-3. A well known and well-used tactic is to coax a large airplane to fly in another direction. This is done by flying (very) close on a parallel course then by turning sharply in front of their windscreen. Not only does it scare the flight crew, it forces the intercepted airplane to fly through the fighter's wake and jetwash. The Chinese pilot probably turned too soon, clip the wing of the EP-3 and the out of control J-8 impacted the EP-3's nose. Given the weight of the equipment and large number of people on board (22 crewmen is a LOT in a P-3), it is unlikely that it could have done much to either attempt to hit, much less avoid an agile fighter. Many Tu-95 Bear's were "coaxed" away from their course by intercepting F-15's and F-16's off the Atlantic coast in a similar manner.
The Russians did this and damaged a P-3 several years ago in what was likely the first air-air sighting of an Su-27. I believe the P-3 was Norwegian and it suffered the loss of one of its props. The P-3 crew snapped some great photos moments before the impact. You could count the skin panels in the Su-27 it was so close. If I recall, the Su-27 suffered the loss of one of its vertical stabilizers but I don't remember its fate.
MiG
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http://www.gsansom.demon.co.uk/vfaero/lists/shoots.htm (http://www.gsansom.demon.co.uk/vfaero/lists/shoots.htm)
About as good a list as I've see so far but some inaccuracies.
Found this on the Norway incident:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/1716/sqn.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/1716/sqn.htm)
Orions of 333 Squadron still operates regularly over international waters north of the Kola peninsula. the Russian navy and naval air force also operate regularly in this same area on local training exercises. Visual contact between Norwegian P-3´s and Russian ships and aircraft is not uncommon: similar to the state existing with the previous Russian and Norwegian units nowadays can be described as more relaxed than at the height of the cold war, although relations between Norwegian P-3´s and Soviet units in earlier years were hardly ever tense, with the exception of one dramatic incident: in September 1987 a Norwegian P-3 collided with a Soviet Su27 Flanker after some irresponsible maneuvers by the Flanker pilot. Fortunately the P-3 was able to make a safe landing and nobody got hurt.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-02-2001).]
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No doubt, there is a new President in the States!
After almost 3 month of George W. Bush we had several air raids in Iraq, the rejection of an important international treaty and now a critical situation in the far east.
I'm sure in the end of his time as President he got at least one more war than his father.
What we got is the mediocre son of an average
former President.
We are looking into a bright new future (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Tofri,
So a Chinese fighter running into a US EP-3 Recon airplane in International Airspace is the new President's fault?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Somebody over on AGW brought up a scenario that sounds about right:
Fighter One screws up and rams EP-3, goes down in flames. Fighter Two is understandably freaked out and radios that capitalist pig-dog aggressor has downed his wingman. GCI controller goes apeshit and orders Fighter Two to force down the imperialist oppressor at the nearest people's airfield. What we have now is just a bunch of ass-covering while the Chinese figure out what really happened.
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Heck ya it's Bush's fault isn't everything that isn't free. Clinton would have just traded a few more national security secrets for the crew, let the Chinese keep the plane stating there wasn't anything onboard the Chinese didn't get at the last Democratic convention and tell us one more time "I did not have sexual relations with THAT woman!"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously, you ex-military, what do you think the Chinese got their hands on that they didn't know before? How easy is the gear to destroy or throw overboard? If the Chinese refuse to cooperate, how quickly do you think this could get nasty?
Eagler
[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Originally posted by funked:
Sounds like the Chinese AF need to learn how to fly. Morons.
...and same goes for surtain AF which clipped some cables in Italy...
1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34
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Eagler,
I know that you can't dump the built in antennae and that technology alone is worth a bundle.
The hard drives could probably be wiped and some of the equipment tossed overboard but any way you cut it, they are going to gain valuable knowledge, both in $ and in technological leaps if they get to take that airplane apart.
Wmaker, bad things happen in airplanes. To all air forces.
The question now is are the Chinese going to live up to their International agreements and release the plane and crew?
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Wmaker - I called those guys morons too.
Big difference though - US Navy didn't try to blame that collision on the cables. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yep funked, at least I don't understand how a plane like the 'Aries' could ram a fighter like F-8. If 'Aries' would try it F-8 pilot would have to be asleep not being able to stop it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I just think that making arguments like "All of the chinese AF should learn to fly...they are morons" isn't fair. There are plenty of morons in every corporation, air force, school and so on. I bet there are plenty of good pilots in chinese AF too.
EDIT[And we don't know what EXACTLY happened...probably never will...]EDIT
1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34
[This message has been edited by Wmaker (edited 04-02-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Wmaker (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Good point Wmaker. Anyways I'm sure the poor Chinese pilot was sorry for it in his last moments. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Here's what I think China will do. They know that if they handle this "by the book" it will help relations with the US and make them look good. So I think they will send the crew home ASAP, but drag their feet on the aircraft return.
USA will get the aircraft back, but there will be some "logistical" delays while they check it out. I don't think it will be as bad as the MiG-25 in Japan though, where the USSR got it back in crates. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Update: US Officials will meet with the crew tonight, but as they said, thats about 72 hours later than they 'expected' to be allowed to see the crew...the EP-3 has already had a thorough shake down by the Chinese...I'm sure like everything else in their military it will be noted and copied very soon.
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I'd never make a good politician as I am already out of patience.
I say it's time to go in and get what is ours and being held illegally from us. Dare them to stop us.
We should have destroyed the plane with cruise missiles while the chinks were doing their little inspection of it.
Eagler
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Originally posted by Eagler:
I'd never make a good politician as I am already out of patience.
...
We should have destroyed the plane with cruise missiles while the chinks were doing their little inspection of it.
Eagler
Yes, I agree. It's a good thing you're not a politician.
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 04-03-2001).]
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Hehe, Eagler, I have to agree with Leonid, that's not the best dipolomatic channel to play first...I'd start with refusing to unload any cargo coming into US ports with retail goods, that ALWAYS gets their attention real fast since 60% of their export $$ comes from the good ole' US of A.
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FFS, Eagler.
'The Chinks' Eagler? Are you subscribing to Wobbly's school of racial slurs?
Oh, it's just a word? And black people are a bunch of cupcakes?
Racism really pisses me off. I have enough of it to contend with coming from my father.
'Lets send in the boys - let's kick some f****** ass!!!!'
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-03-2001).]
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Rip, I think you have it.