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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Zazen13 on August 12, 2005, 11:48:38 AM
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***By popular demand I moved this guide I posted from the General Forums section to the Help section so as to be more easily located. If you wish to see the entire thread search General Forums Author: Zazen13, Title: Aiming in an Ostwind: An End to Vulching...***
Aiming In an Ostwind
Ok, here it is, by popular demand, the key, the secret, the way to consistantly kill at high deflection in an Ostwind. I post this for one reason and one reason only. To make vulching, which is just spawn camping planes with planes, as unpleasant an experience as possible and totally non-viable as a method to pad fighter scores.
Firstly, there's a couple of things to note, always park your Ostwind on concrete somewhere. Secondly, always have your clipboard open and your mouse cursor on the Tower button so you can end mission quickly if you hear ordnance about to plop on your head. Thirdly, learn where to park your Ostwind, in AH2 there's two main places to park it, near the Fighter Hangers, but not too near and near the tower on a small field or near the nexus of runways at a medium or large field for vulcher slaying. In some situations you may not want to park at all, such as when there are no friendly aircraft to amuse the vulchers, in this situation go up and down the runways in 5th gear maintaining a straight line path to make compensating for your own movement as easy as possible.
As far as aiming goes, the core principle is rather simple, some may have already heard me state it. Always fire fully zoomed in. While fully zoomed in a target travelling roughly parallel or perpendicular to the ground at a range of 1k will be hit if kept exactly at the edge of your screen. Therefore a target 500 away should be kept halfway from the edge of your screen to your crosshair. This is the basis for all shots. Now shots off angle you must judge by the aircraft's attitude, speed and size as to how much extra or less to lead it relative to the base amount, always leading in the direction of the target plane's nose. Always lead your target slightly more than you think you should and slightly above to allow for shell drop, and keep your turret swivel motion as smooth and fluid as possible. On large targets and slower than average targets lead a little less, on small and fast targets lead a little more.
Another thing to realize, while an Ostwind shell can technically kill at distances approaching 3k, never ever fire over 1.5k for one simple reason. The smoothing code or whatever, does an adjustment at 1.5k, you will notice a small burp or hiccup in the planes position, so at distances over 1.5k you are not actually seeing the plane where it really is. You'll notice this effect on bombers, it is espeically pronounced with the drones in a formation. I almost never shoot beyond 1.2k on anything that isn't just coming directly at or away from me. The 1k distance is really where you want to be firing, it's the key to accurate deflection shooting in the Ostwind.
To sum this up really simply:
1k away = target at the edge of your visible screen.
750 away = target is 3/4s of the distance from crosshair to edge.
500 away = halfway from your crosshair to the edge of screen.
250 = 1/4 the distance from your crosshair to the edge.
This only works if you are Fully Zoomed in! (of course you do your scanning un-zoomed) I also recommend being fully Page-Up'd by default.
Hope this helps! Death to vulchers!
Zazen
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"1k away = target at the edge of your visible screen.
750 away = target is 3/4s of the distance from crosshair to edge.
500 away = halfway from your crosshair to the edge of screen.
250 = 1/4 the distance from your crosshair to the edge. "
Hmm, doesn't this depend on your resolution?
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Originally posted by Messiah
"1k away = target at the edge of your visible screen.
750 away = target is 3/4s of the distance from crosshair to edge.
500 away = halfway from your crosshair to the edge of screen.
250 = 1/4 the distance from your crosshair to the edge. "
Hmm, doesn't this depend on your resolution?
I've tried it at everything from 800X600 to 1600X1200 on a 17" screen to a 21" screen it works the same. If there is any difference it's so small as to be within the shell's trajectory margin of variability and irrelevant.
Zazen
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thanks for reposting this.
normally i cant hit planes from an osti unless they are coming straight at me, i'll have to give your leads a try.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I've tried it at everything from 800X600 to 1600X1200 on a 17" screen to a 21" screen it works the same. If there is any difference it's so small as to be within the shell's trajectory margin of variability and irrelevant.
Zazen
Thank you sir I was always inconsistent with the Osti good and bad days will give a try!
Uber
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Thanks for the tip. :aok
You have picked me off vulching quite a few times LOL
Now for another situation:
The plane has just buzzed over you and is heading away from you. How do you aim? You have hit me like that several times. I never can seem to hit a plane flying directly away from me, yet it seems like it should be an easy shot.
And also head-ons, I only hit maybe 10% of those diving at me head on
Help would be appreciated :)
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Thanks for the tip. :aok
You have picked me off vulching quite a few times LOL
Now for another situation:
The plane has just buzzed over you and is heading away from you. How do you aim? You have hit me like that several times. I never can seem to hit a plane flying directly away from me, yet it seems like it should be an easy shot.
And also head-ons, I only hit maybe 10% of those diving at me head on
Help would be appreciated :)
One thing to realize when shooting, there is a fairly large 'spread'. The key to hitting any target, but especially those heading generally toward and away from you is to lead their nose not where the plane appears to be. This is especially true on planes heading away from you as your shell takes quite some time to get there relatively speaking. So, in your example where he just flew over you and is heading away if he is shallow diving to deck lead below him, but if he's shallow climbing lead above him. You judge by how much by watching his nose attitude and the distance, the further away the more lead to compensate for the shell drop.
Zazen
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Zazen could you possibly post a film of your Osti magic?
DmdMax
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Good info.
Thanks Zazen :)
RTR
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Originally posted by DMax
Zazen could you possibly post a film of your Osti magic?
DmdMax
I would love to see some of your films.
It is like the devil himself is at the field when Zazen is gunning in an Osty. You should hear the guys talking on our side :)
You are definately a legend in your own time :aok
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Originally posted by Zazen13
One thing to realize when shooting, there is a fairly large 'spread'. The key to hitting any target, but especially those heading generally toward and away from you is to lead their nose not where the plane appears to be. This is especially true on planes heading away from you as your shell takes quite some time to get there relatively speaking. So, in your example where he just flew over you and is heading away if he is shallow diving to deck lead below him, but if he's shallow climbing lead above him. You judge by how much by watching his nose attitude and the distance, the further away the more lead to compensate for the shell drop.
Zazen
So when he is diving on you, about how much below the plane do you lead at the following ranges: (use diameter of the planes cowl)
1K
800
600
400
TY :)
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i have tried this method when it was posted last time and i find it extremely acurate.
starting in the possition (1k-edgescreen) and then working from the tracers to judge the exact lead will get even a poor flak gunner like myself a kill within 15-20 rounds max if you have a reasonable judge of lead anyhow.
anything putting an end to mass vulching as a method not a sport (it can be fun in the right moments, i dont mind being vulched in an il2 to a few fighters) can't be bad.
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Well all I can say is I do all that and the last tour I believe our scores were very very close. The only difference between you and I is .....I don't tower out that's cowardly and shows lack of character and that you have no honor:rolleyes: so you enjoy all your kills knowing yes I died alot more because I didn't tower out.
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Originally posted by LTARaptr
Well all I can say is I do all that and the last tour I believe our scores were very very close. The only difference between you and I is .....I don't tower out that's cowardly and shows lack of character and that you have no honor:rolleyes: so you enjoy all your kills knowing yes I died alot more because I didn't tower out.
Zazen takes the time to offer some help and you resply with this chest pounding? Shame on you
DmdMax
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Originally posted by mechanic
starting in the possition (1k-edgescreen) and then working from the tracers to judge the exact lead
I generally can't see my own tracers against the blue sky and clouds. Just everybody elses. :furious
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Originally posted by LTARaptr
Well all I can say is I do all that and the last tour I believe our scores were very very close. /B]
You need to look again friend... ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by Lye-El
I generally can't see my own tracers against the blue sky and clouds. Just everybody elses. :furious
Turn your gamma down a bit, so the sky is not so bright.
Zazen
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Lye-I,
Im willing to bet you have a CRT monitor and not a LCD?
Am I right?
LCD make tracers 1000% more easy to see.
Balsy
CRT sufferer of "cant see-um tracers"
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Originally posted by DMax
Zazen takes the time to offer some help and you resply with this chest pounding? Shame on you
DmdMax
Well put! <>
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By popular demand I am bumping this post so it can be more easily found.
Zazen
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ty zazen!! when I was flying a bit last month i tried your method and i'm happy to report i pounded the snot out of air. lol. i'm sure what you laid out works. i expect more practice and better following directions would help.
Hap
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Hi ZAZEN, Great post. Been trying it with no luck yet. When you talk about the edge of the screen at 1k do you mean the endge of the monitor screen or the edge of the gunsight glass screen??? Thanks for your help!!!! RajnMAW;)
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Edge of the screen.
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I have read this post before, apprecate it's intent, but have not been able to get results using the techniques described. I occasionally hit a plane with deflection shooting, but it seems random. Ostwind films don't show tracers, so figuring out where your shells are going relative to the planes is not possible. I have a few questions if those in the know can provide some clues:
1. How much drop does the (Ostwind) round have from 200 to 1000 yards. From what I have seen there is some. How does that relate to where to aim when zoomed in 100%?
2. When leading planes, it seems I have to lead more than what is described in the guide. Maybe rounds are dropping below the planes? Also, doesn't plane speed come into play here? It seems there is a measureable time between firing and when the shell hits, at least when firing at hangers and buildings on the field.
3. How does the gunsite resolution change bullet impact? On my machine, where the rounds hit (when firing at stationary hangers, etc) changes depending on the amount of zoom. The bullets don't hit at the center of the gunsite. I use the mouse pointer technique (so I can get a better field of view) and putting the mouse at the center of the gunsite is not where the rounds are hitting. This happens even if I don't use the mouse pointer as a gunsite. Does dispersion take care of this?
4. This isn't a question, but if you do have any films of shooting down planes using this technique they would be appreciated. After viewing some of my own films, I could not figure that much out, but looking at someones that knows what they are doing might help.
It would be nice if the Training Arena allowed taking up Ostwinds and shooting rubber bullets at the planes flying over the fields. That might be too distracting for new pilots though. Once again, any guide on deflection shooting with an Ostwind is much apprecaited (even if I don't understand how to apply it).
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by stantond
I have read this post before, apprecate it's intent, but have not been able to get results using the techniques described. I occasionally hit a plane with deflection shooting, but it seems random. Ostwind films don't show tracers, so figuring out where your shells are going relative to the planes is not possible. I have a few questions if those in the know can provide some clues:
1. How much drop does the (Ostwind) round have from 200 to 1000 yards. From what I have seen there is some. How does that relate to where to aim when zoomed in 100%?
2. When leading planes, it seems I have to lead more than what is described in the guide. Maybe rounds are dropping below the planes? Also, doesn't plane speed come into play here? It seems there is a measureable time between firing and when the shell hits, at least when firing at hangers and buildings on the field.
3. How does the gunsite resolution change bullet impact? On my machine, where the rounds hit (when firing at stationary hangers, etc) changes depending on the amount of zoom. The bullets don't hit at the center of the gunsite. I use the mouse pointer technique (so I can get a better field of view) and putting the mouse at the center of the gunsite is not where the rounds are hitting. This happens even if I don't use the mouse pointer as a gunsite. Does dispersion take care of this?
4. This isn't a question, but if you do have any films of shooting down planes using this technique they would be appreciated. After viewing some of my own films, I could not figure that much out, but looking at someones that knows what they are doing might help.
It would be nice if the Training Arena allowed taking up Ostwinds and shooting rubber bullets at the planes flying over the fields. That might be too distracting for new pilots though. Once again, any guide on deflection shooting with an Ostwind is much apprecaited (even if I don't understand how to apply it).
Regards,
Malta
Ok, I will answer your questions in order:
1) The shell drop to targets up to 1k away is fairly insignificant, over that distance it becomes increasingly and incrementally more significant. The amount the shell drops under 1k is smaller than the variability of the 'spread' to you can aim a hair above but not more if you want but usually you don't need to.
2) The faster the plane is going the more you have to lead relative to the base amount. A bandit going 500mph but 800 away you will have to have him about on the edge of the screen as if he were going 300'ish but 1k away. Conversely, a bandit going only 200 mph but 1k away you only need to lead him 3/4 of the way to the edge. It's something you have to get a feel for, but as I stated in the original post, smaller and/or faster targets lead more than the base amount, slower and/or large targets lead less. My formula in the original post is based on an average plane like the P51 going an average speed of 325'ish.
3) Only fire fully zoomed in, there is no reason to fire partially zoomed in. I have experimented with this at various resolutions. There is no difference between where the shell goes relative to the centerline position fully zoomed in or fully zoomed out, however at some resolutions there is a difference if only partially zoomed in. My guide only works if you are fully zoomed in when firing.
4) I just had a volunteer willing to host a film of me using this method. I will post one shortly.
Zazen
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thanks for the good info.. im gonna give it a shot and report my results... normally i only hit the aircraft once bombs are released.... ha ha
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Ok...
Any more ideas on how to kill the staight on "easy shot". You know, the dropping in, dead on, mid-level, air to ground osti HO dweeb.
I couldn't hit the Goodyear blimp in one of those Osti's. When he's dropping in at a 45 degree angle, do I shoot over or under the plane?
and remember, speak slowly and use little words when dealing with me...
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One of the tips that Zazen gave me that helped me with the shot you are talking about is not to "micromanage" the shooting. The dispersion is pretty wide on the ostwind. I get the stream just under the bogey and leave it there, kind of like trying to shoot his tires off. If you don't jerk the gun up down or left right every time your shell misses (micromanage). Just be patient, the rate of fire is pretty fast, one of the next 2 or 3 shots will get him (patience grasshopper). If you move your joystick chasing the target after every shot, he will get you more often than he gets you.
You must trust in the force and your aim.
Also, film some of your sorties, then later get in the bogey from the chase mode, and see where your shells are landing. Then check from the gunsite, and then the plane view. You will soon learn where to aim, and have confidence not to chase the target. :aok
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AKFokerFoder+ that explanes why after I hear the bomb release at 45% and I just hold the trigger and accept my fate, I often get simaltanious kill and death. Always chalked it up to target fixation and auger on his part and never considered that I may have done the right thing by accident ;)
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if you had any trouble hosting i can recieve anything up to 10MB through this email and would be happy to host anything up to 10MB for unlimited time.
djhayze21@hotmail.com
buzz me if you need it zazen.
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Originally posted by RSLQK186
AKFokerFoder+ that explanes why after I hear the bomb release at 45% and I just hold the trigger and accept my fate, I often get simaltanious kill and death. Always chalked it up to target fixation and auger on his part and never considered that I may have done the right thing by accident ;)
I am not sure how Zazen does it, but to me it IS kind of a "use the force" thing. I don't use sights, I use the tracers, and try to get the bogey into the area where most of the shells are falling.
I made one kill at 2.5k LOL. But I get a fair number in the 1.0 to 1.5k range.
I also have some film that I would like to have posted. I have a sweet on where I bag 3 A20s in less than a minute, 2 by deflection, one as he dives on me. Another one where I shoot up an IL2 for an assist, then bag a spit with a nice deflection shot about a minute later.
Ostwinds are mindless, dweeby fun!
Last month I had 39 kills in an Ostwind in about 5 hours.
This month so far I have 36 kills in an Ostwind in a little under 5 hours.
I get killed a lot, but this month a lot of the kills were by Tigers n Panzers.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
[B
Ostwinds are mindless, dweeby fun!
Last month I had 39 kills in an Ostwind in about 5 hours.
This month so far I have 36 kills in an Ostwind in a little under 5 hours.
[/B]
I have 94 kills in 5 hrs. :O
Zazen
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
[B
Ostwinds are mindless, dweeby fun!
Last month I had 39 kills in an Ostwind in about 5 hours.
This month so far I have 36 kills in an Ostwind in a little under 5 hours.
[/B]
I have 94 kills in 5 hrs. :O
Zazen
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Thanks for posting this! Hopefully it'll help the "new" girl... ;)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I have 94 kills in 5 hrs. :O
Zazen
I've never implied that I was better than you in an Osty. Nice scoring BTW :)
Sometimes you just sit there with nothing coming in, pretty boring.
Some nights, I just don't feel like flying either. :)
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Just to clarify what I am describing regarding round impact, I found all the ostwind rounds hit low left. At 200 yards, its closer to just left, but regardless the sight seems off. I noticed this online and went offline to verify this change in impact.
Setting up using the .target command confirms that the guns is shooting low left. Is this a recent bug, or is there some historical (or plain old game) reason for this change in impact, or is this just me? Now that I've seen and confirmed what is going on it's no big deal, but it is odd and doesn't help with trying to hit a target, moving or not. Btw, I have taken 'to heart' this guide and it has helped with deflection shooting.
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by stantond
Just to clarify what I am describing regarding round impact, I found all the ostwind rounds hit low left. At 200 yards, its closer to just left, but regardless the sight seems off. I noticed this online and went offline to verify this change in impact.
Setting up using the .target command confirms that the guns is shooting low left. Is this a recent bug, or is there some historical (or plain old game) reason for this change in impact, or is this just me? Now that I've seen and confirmed what is going on it's no big deal, but it is odd and doesn't help with trying to hit a target, moving or not. Btw, I have taken 'to heart' this guide and it has helped with deflection shooting.
Regards,
Malta
Yup, I just went and tested this with both the Ostwind and the field gun, you are correct. Fully zoomed in the rounds are slightly low and to the left of the mark. Unzoomed they are right on the money though on my FE at least. I'm not sure how recent this is, I only every use my crosshair as a reference point, generally I am focussed on the nose of the enemy plane and my tracers.
Zazen
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FYI, for anyone having read this & still having trouble, stop by the TA.
Get someone to fly drone for you.
Turn on friendly lock (control tab I think), then tab to target them.
The lead computing gunsight will show you exactly how much lead & elevation you need in the ostwind.
You'll need to up from V6 or field other than A1. (vehicles disabled there due to lots of dweebness)
Did this with DH367th the other night and had him hitting me 2 or 3 times per pass in no more than 5 minutes.
ohh and PUNT :)
Keep up the good work zazen
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Bump here ya go:D it works too
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Originally posted by Wax
Bump here ya go:D it works too
Glad it helped ya Wax. I reviewed this post as it's a year old, I still do the exact same thing with the same degree of success today.
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What's the trick to getting a kill in a field gun? I've never hit anithing with it but I see guys landing several kills in one. There's lots of opportunities to jump in a field gun and pop that lone incoming porker for his troubles but I don't bother because I know I can't hit him :(
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Originally posted by Alky
What's the trick to getting a kill in a field gun? I've never hit anithing with it but I see guys landing several kills in one. There's lots of opportunities to jump in a field gun and pop that lone incoming porker for his troubles but I don't bother because I know I can't hit him :(
The Field gun is EXACTLY the same in every way to the Ostwind as far as aiming is concerned. The only differences are:
1) The field gun seems to be more accurate, has less spread and slightly longer effective range. This is probably due to a significantly longer barrel and being in a fixed position as opposed to a less stable vehicle platform.
2) The field gun has a slightly slower rate of fire, this means a target is more likely to, "Thread the needle", between your stream even if your lead is perfect.
3) The field gun has better 360 degree visibilty as their is no tank chassis and turret housing to obsruct your view. So, it is much easier to maintain situational awareness, as it were, in a field gun.
4) Obviously the field gun is much easier to kill, a single cannon round even close to a field gun will blow it, but then again you can't 'die' in a field gun either...
As far as aiming as illustrated in my original post there is absolutely no difference. If you are good in an Ostwind you will be good in a field gun and vice versa, it's the same 37mm cannon.
Zazen
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A lot of luck. I have quite a few hours in the Osti and field gun when the VH is down and it still seems to require a lot of luck. :furious
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Originally posted by Lye-El
A lot of luck. I have quite a few hours in the Osti and field gun when the VH is down and it still seems to require a lot of luck. :furious
There's a certain degree of luck in that the shells spread a little and you can be right on in your lead but the plane, 'threads the needle'..or not. But, all things being equal if you can judge the proper lead, you are going to be consistantly "Lucky"...
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
f you can judge the proper lead, you are going to be consistantly "Lucky"...
Zazen
Thanx Zazen.... UDAMAN :D
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Originally posted by Zazen13
But, all things being equal if you can judge the proper lead, you are going to be consistantly "Lucky"...
Zazen
Seems to be a rare talent. Practice sure doesn't seem to help. Personally I blame the bifocals. :cry
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Seems to be a rare talent. Practice sure doesn't seem to help. Personally I blame the bifocals. :cry
It can definately be learned to some extent. I have taken people who couldn't ever hit anything at deflection and made snipers out of them...Just like any other gunnery there will be some kind of upper limit of individual proficiency based on innate aptitude and proclivity for 'feeling' deflection...
Zazen
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Hehe....been waiting for a reply since February. :aok
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Hehe....been waiting for a reply since February. :aok
Sorry, I used my reply as a bump. I have been asked about the thread alot since I went to help Knights. They are curious how I do what I do having now witnessed the results of my system first-hand...I wanted to make the thread easier to find than through the search algorythm.
Zazen
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you really need to post a film zazen.
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Originally posted by WMLute
you really need to post a film zazen.
I wish I could, films don't work for the Ostwind. The film view stays in relation to the positional heading of the chassis, it does not traverse with the turret. So, you can't see where I am aiming or what I am shooting at...I hope this gets fixed. It's really, really hard to explain the aiming process in words, with one film I could turn the entire AH population into anti-vulcher snipers...I can only imagine the amazing furballs we'd then have...
Zazen
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maybe you can post a few screen shots takin in the game as you shoot. Will most likely "toast" your shot while doing it, but you can pass up a couple kills for the masses can't ya ? :)
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Ditto the request.
With a giant "duh," I've just realized that films can be a goldmine for learning gunnery -- by taking mental "snapshots" of the gunsight relative to the target at the instant the good guners fire.
If you ould take screenshots at the critical moment...even if its just before the shot...would be a great visual help.
[CROSSED FINGERS]BTW, did the newest patch change things for osty films [/CROSSED FINGERS]
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a must read oldie but goodie for those who want to learn how to get kills in an osti.
thought it was worth a repost.
:)
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Im still waiting on a few screen shots to show what kind of lead Zaz is talking about. :D
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...and a year later, thanks. I can't hit the ground in an Ostwind. I've always assumed Dale put special code in the GV model to assure my vehicles are all loaded with blanks.
...not unlike the special code he put in aircraft, bombs, ship guns...
...and PUNT...
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what's a PUNT? :cool:
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Zaz
Thanks...
As I suc so ban in an Osti...
I can't wait to try this...
Gatr
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Originally posted by Max
what's a PUNT? :cool:
Football term. It's a post who's purpose is to kick a thread back to the top of the forum.
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screw a PUNT lets go for a FIELD GOAL!
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Appreciate the info Zazen, I've tried that before. It just doesn't seem to work for me. Although I know you have had much success with it. What I like to do is leave my sights all the way in for a better field of vision, that way I can see the bad guys coming and swing to get them. However, I noticed rooks don't come down to the field LOL Can you change that for me.
As far as towering to keep from getting killed I have no problem with that. I read another article where they mentioned the same thing. It does remind me of the A Team series where the bad guys would bail out of the tower before the rockets hit.
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Got to admit I'm not successful either with this method :furious
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Hard to say "This is how you hit people with an Osti" when there are so many variables. Long shots of 2k or more I use the "shotgun" method. I lead them and try to guess where they will be and fire alot of shots. Close shots depend on the AOA, speed and even plane type. Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice and you'll get better. I have killed planes as far as 4k away....don't happen offen but it can be done. If your ever tearing down a town with an osti zoom all the way in a watch the rounds...talk about all over the place. They are very inaccurate and as the round goes further the more off target it gets. So some will say...let them get closer before you fire. If you do that either your about to have an egg dropped on you or you have no turret. As far as survival if there are multiple friendly flaks out I am usually the 2-3 one to start firing. Usually you mark yourself as a target before the baddy even gets an icon on you. If there are low buffs coming in I don't fire till I am sure of thier flight path. One of two things happen either I start moving or I start firing.
Also do you use the cursor, page up method? It really helps in field of vision. PM me or look me up in the game and I'll explain it to you.
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I've been getting pretty uber at killing stuff in the osty.
My best advice is get some good lead on it then when you think you are shooting in roughly the right spot lead some more!
Practice makes perfect.
I got my first 262 kill in an osty the other week :aok
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ty for the post
will try edge of screen instead of edge of gun site