Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on August 13, 2005, 11:19:45 AM
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My dad sent me this speech in an Email and I found it a good read. It pretty much goes along with alot of things that I think are wrong with this country of ours.
We all know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration-overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor named Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration — both legal and illegal — was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.
Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"
"Here is how they do it," Lamm said: First to destroy America, "Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy. Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."
Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.
Third, "We could make the United States a 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: 'The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved! Not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.'"
Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."
"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."
"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."
"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity! Unity is what it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshiped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic Games.
A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to over come two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell.
"E. Pluribus Unum" — From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."
"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'x! xenophobes' halt discussion and debate."
"Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."
In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."
There was no applause.
A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Every discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America — take note of California and other states — to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength."
Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy are deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.
and before you think this is neo-con pinhead dribble:
Richard D. Lamm was a Democrat who served as governor of Colorado for twelve years from 1975 to 1987
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So how come its working here! I don't see a destroyed Britain. Infact we are about the strongest nation in Europe economicaly and politicaly.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
So how come its working here! I don't see a destroyed Britain. Infact we are about the strongest nation in Europe economicaly and politicaly.
your doctors also want to ban pointy objects. face it you are a nanny state that is losing it's identity. I don't mean to be offensive i'm just trying to be honest.
I don't see how you like being told that being proud of your heritatge and your culture is racist and that "diversity" and "multiculturalism" trump all else. Those tag lines get used in excess at our universitys and the educated masses will start flooding America's work force with this soon enough. The guy also makes some great points as far as history lessons are concerned.
EDIT: sky please don't take offense to this and I am by no means advocating that America is perfect
BUT,
The UK as you say is strong in Europe. You embrace those of different culture with open arms. Alot of those that would not be welcomed in other places preferr the UK. Yet the extremest still see it as a place to wage terror war.
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Teh snopes says.... True!!! (http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp)
Makes me want to check out that Mexifornia book he talks about.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Teh snopes says.... True!!! (http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp)
Makes me want to check out that Mexifornia book he talks about.
yea I got this in Email and made sure I snoped it first. To be honest I HATE alot of this multicultural babble.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
So how come its working here! I don't see a destroyed Britain. Infact we are about the strongest nation in Europe economicaly and politicaly.
Working there? At least our unassimilated Mexican population isn't strapping explosives onto themselves.
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I think our identity is pretty strong. We are nation of people from all over the world. A product of having a global empire. We are a nation who invented Democracy! Abolished Slavery! Fought to world wars to defeat Millitarism and Facism! Have over 2000 years of history and a thousand years of continuous monarchy, Invented many of the things that we now take for granted. Kicked off Industrialisation to name but a few things.
I think us Brits, whatever religion colour creed we are, are pretty clear about our identity. What we are also clear about is that the identity of a nation changes develops and is fluid. If it isn't the inevitable result is stagnation and death. Change is not something to fear it is something to grab by the horns and run with.
Tarmac you have a point. But we've dealt with that for many a year. We used to have Irish Catholic Republicans, leaving those explosives in Pubs etc and Blowing us up too. Thay were British Citizens as well you know. Its not that new. We're old hands at terrorism unlike your great nation for whom 911 was a wake up call. We were wide awake long before that!
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You are 97% white... That is hardly multiculturism working... your schools don't teach in two languages... you don't call illegals "undocumented immigrants"... In short... you don't have the faintest idea of what is happening here....
you live on a tiny little island fer chrissakes where everone is white and speaks english. It is no hardship to you if a couple of unseen workers speak some foreign drivel... you get more tourists speaking drivel than that. You don't have 25% of your TV and radio stations in a foreign language...
Like I said... you don't know anything about it except in canada and quebec... that's working great isn't it?
lazs
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Lazs you are rather ignorant of the current stuation in the UK. We do have Aisian Language Radio Stations. We also have Bilingual teaching in many of our City schools. Not to mention the fact that In Wales we have bilingual education and have had so for years. We have a large Immigrant population in our citys, The countyside may be 97% white but thats not all of Britain is it? Honestly you betray as much ignorance about the UK as I'm sure you think I do about the US empire;)
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Lazs you are rather ignorant of the current stuation in the UK. We do have Aisian Language Radio Stations. We also have Bilingual teaching in many of our City schools. Not to mention the fact that In Wales we have bilingual education and have had so for years. We have a large Immigrant population in our citys, The countyside may be 97% white but thats not all of Britain is it? Honestly you betray as much ignorance about the UK as I'm sure you think I do about the US empire;)
Sky this thread is really about America and I don't want to turn it into US Vs. UK thing. YOu guys feel just as much pains from this as we do.
Free Press, Scottish Style
Scotland's Sunday Herald says two newspapers there have been investigated by police for racial intimidation after they published articles critical of the country's immigration policies.
A formal racial complaint was lodged against the Barrhead News for publishing an article which claimed the town could be "swamped by gypsies from across Europe" in an article about a group of French travelers who had settled on the site of an old factory nearby.
A Strathclyde Police spokesman told the paper that his office had received a complaint about a "racist incident" involving the paper.
Over the weekend, the Herald reported that Alan Buchan, owner and editor of the free North East Weekly, was charged with incitement to racial hatred after a two-hour interview by police. The charges apparently stem from an editorial in which he criticized plans to turn a former air force base into into an immigrant center and create a new prison nearby.
Under the heading "Perverts & Refugees", Mr Buchan wrote: "The people of rural England have been in massive rebelling (sic) over the establishment of refugee centres holding upwards of 5000 immigrants because they were fully aware that their communities would be swamped and turned into cesspools
"As a result the government has abandoned its plans for England and now could be looking at a refugee complex of over 5000 and a prison unit of 800 for Buchan.
"The reason that the people of rural England have reject (sic) this is that they know their communities would be turned into ghettos where murder, rape, robbery, assault, break-ins and numerous other crimes became prevalent."
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/44739.html
this is a perfect example of what my post is talking about. All you have to do to trump free speech in dealing with immigration is play the race card. Free thaught 0 Multiculturalism 1
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The Roanoke Times reports that officials at Virginia Tech are allowing sexually segregated classes for visiting Saudi students because US officials don’t want to “impress our culture on them.”
The students, some 60 faculty members from King Abdulaziz University, are taking identical development courses at Tech this summer but instead of being integrated they are segregated sexually.
http://www.roanoke.com/printer/printpage.aspx?arcID=28903
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Lazs you are rather ignorant of the current stuation in the UK. We do have Aisian Language Radio Stations. We also have Bilingual teaching in many of our City schools. Not to mention the fact that In Wales we have bilingual education and have had so for years. We have a large Immigrant population in our citys, The countyside may be 97% white but thats not all of Britain is it? Honestly you betray as much ignorance about the UK as I'm sure you think I do about the US empire;)
Maybe you missed my previous inference in your wrist-flapping righteous indignation, so I'll be more direct.
How do you explain the subway/bus bombings in the context of your "we're soooo well integrated and everybody loves everybody" argument.
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I shall repeat ......Tarmac you have a point. But we've dealt with that for many a year. We used to have Irish Catholic Republicans, leaving those explosives in Pubs etc and Blowing us up too. Thay were British Citizens as well you know. Its not that new. We're old hands at terrorism unlike your great nation for whom 911 was a wake up call. We were wide awake long before that!
Don't get the idea that a few Islamic nuts blowing themselves up is causing this nation to implode or segregate or whatever. We're a bit more sensible than that!
Gunslinger. Ok I see what you mean and yes that does happen. Yes its daft and people should be able to speak their mind, but within reason. I don't want the Far right BNP inciting hatred any more than I want Islamic Fundamentalist Immams doing so. I think that the senator guys was wrong realy. I don't think a society of people who speak different languages or have different cultures is a problem. I do think they should be able to speak the native language too though. I do believe that all societys grow and change and that is healthy. What is not healthy is a kind of Mono culture which is what I think this guy is going on about. He basicaly seems to suggest that the US will only be strong if it is a monoculture. I disagree. I think Britain is pretty multicultural and that is actualy helping us become stronger in Europe and have more influence globaly. Plus on a lighter note it has realy improved our diet! :)
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So inform me with some facts skyprancer.... what is your entire england white race ratio? Not 97%? then what is it?
We have entire states where whites are becoming a minority and english is becomeing a minor language.
You don't know anthing about here yet you were the one to arrogantly say that it all works in england so why not here?
There are neighborhoods in the U.S. where you couldn't survive the afternoon because you were white.
you are quick to jump on us for intolernace yet I see more intolence for less real reason in your country... minor little spikes in non white population like you have would be ignored or laughed at here.... Jumps like we have would cause you biggots to call in the troops.
I defenitly do not want to be lectuired about tolerance by any euro.... much less a brit.
lazs
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Sorry, didn't see your edit above.
I'm not saying that the bombings will cause your country to fragment, merely saying that the fact that these are home-grown terrorists implies that everbody isn't on the same page. That says that there is a significant population in your country which is not well integrated. These relatively few people who took action did not act in isolation; they've been bred, indoctrinated, or whatever word you want to use, to believe that there's something so wrong in your country that people deserve to die for it. These kids didn't come to this conclusion on their own -- as our beloved Hillary Clinton (;)) would say, "It takes a village."
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I shall repeat ......Tarmac you have a point. But we've dealt with that for many a year. We used to have Irish Catholic Republicans, leaving those explosives in Pubs etc and Blowing us up too. Thay were British Citizens as well you know. Its not that new. We're old hands at terrorism unlike your great nation for whom 911 was a wake up call. We were wide awake long before that!
Don't get the idea that a few Islamic nuts blowing themselves up is causing this nation to implode or segregate or whatever. We're a bit more sensible than that!
Gunslinger. Ok I see what you mean and yes that does happen. Yes its daft and people should be able to speak their mind, but within reason. I don't want the Far right BNP inciting hatred any more than I want Islamic Fundamentalist Immams doing so. I think that the senator guys was wrong realy. I don't think a society of people who speak different languages or have different cultures is a problem. I do think they should be able to speak the native language too though. I do believe that all societys grow and change and that is healthy. What is not healthy is a kind of Mono culture which is what I think this guy is going on about. He basicaly seems to suggest that the US will only be strong if it is a monoculture. I disagree. I think Britain is pretty multicultural and that is actualy helping us become stronger in Europe and have more influence globaly. Plus on a lighter note it has realy improved our diet! :)
you make some good points and you actually agre with some in the speech. I disagree with you on the monocultural aspects because I don't beleive that is what he is advocating. We shouldn't ask immigrants to denounce their formor culture but just the opposite while embracing there new American culture. THe problem is we are impressing opon poeple that they HAVE to be responsive to other cultures even if it destroys our own. We are not asking people not to speak there native language but to learn a national one. That brings people together and gives identity. I agree that Britian is a very diverse country but I do not beleive that will help you in the long run. History shows us that with no common bond cultures will clash.
London's Guardian assumes that because ethnic minority and union teachers do not do as well on performance tests administered by local school heads that it must be because of discrimination and racism.
Citing documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, the Guardian says head teachers failed about one in 20 teachers in 2004, a figure that rose to one in 10 among staff who were union officials.
Teachers from the Bangladeshi, black African communities and "Asian other" communities had the lowest success rate of any ethnic group in 2004 at around 80%, the paper says. This, compared with 90% among the Pakistani and Caribbean communities and 95.5% among "white British" teachers.
Greg Robbins, a secretary for the National Association of Schoolmasters and Women Teachers, said the numbers are proof that the performance tests are being used to bully and victimize certain groups.
"I would go as far as to say that some schools in some areas are racist and clearly discriminate against union activists," Robbins said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1541349,00.html?gusrc=rss
this is spot on with what the frmr gov. is talking about.
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OK Lazs.
Think scale. We are a much smaller place keep that in mind. Your states are maybe equivalent to our City boroughs.
We do have neighbourhoods in this very city where I live that are predominantly, Black African Caribean, and yes it can be uncomfortable being a white face there. We do have neighbourhoods where the population is predominantly from the Indian Sub continent and hardly a word of English is heard. We also have neighbourhoods that are mainly white like the one where I work that can be pretty uncomfortable places if you have a brown skin. Thats a fact of life. But in the main we get along pretty well.
I'm not being arrogant ( at least not trying to be ) I do think we make it work pretty well here in the UK. Its not perfect. Never will be. But its not the kind of Ghettoised society other places are. We do pretty well with our mix of peoples. My new neighbours are from behind what was the Iron curtain. Romania and we get along fine. The latest wave of Immigration to the UK I guess.
The mix of people makes for an interesting place. Thats why I live in this City.
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Gunslinger I agree the race card is overplayed. It does sometimes happen and there have been horrendous examples of overt Racism in instutions in this country. But it is overplayed. Still I don't think our diversity is weakness I think it is ultimately strength.
The US is a nation of immigrants and different cultures. It is not weaker as a result it is stronger. I do think you have a more segregated society though. Or at least it appears that way from the outside. I realise I could be wrong.
Over to you guys I'm off to cook a chicken Balti for dinner! ;)
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Gunslinger I agree the race card is overplayed. It does sometimes happen and there have been horrendous examples of overt Racism in instutions in this country. But it is overplayed. Still I don't think our diversity is weakness I think it is ultimately strength.
The US is a nation of immigrants and different cultures. It is not weaker as a result it is stronger. I do think you have a more segregated society though. Or at least it appears that way from the outside. I realise I could be wrong.
Over to you guys I'm off to cook a chicken Balti for dinner! ;)
overplayed is not the problem. It's the fact that it is THE tool to enact cultural repression and stagnate free speech itself.
Frankly I was surprised to learn this guy was a democrat. His words make him sound like a conservative wich is probably why he's no longer the gov.
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Originally posted by lazs2
So inform me with some facts skyprancer.... what is your entire england white race ratio? Not 97%? then what is it?
We have entire states where whites are becoming a minority and english is becomeing a minor language.
You don't know anthing about here yet you were the one to arrogantly say that it all works in england so why not here?
There are neighborhoods in the U.S. where you couldn't survive the afternoon because you were white.
you are quick to jump on us for intolernace yet I see more intolence for less real reason in your country... minor little spikes in non white population like you have would be ignored or laughed at here.... Jumps like we have would cause you biggots to call in the troops.
I defenitly do not want to be lectuired about tolerance by any euro.... much less a brit.
lazs
I read in the paper this morning that in Texas the non whites represent over 50% of the population.
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Originally posted by Ripper29
I read in the paper this morning that in Texas the non whites represent over 50% of the population.
yup and guess what. They are now called the "Majority-minority". To some, using common sense, it would seem that being the "majority" population in a state would entail they could no longer claim minority/victom status. But, alas, we've taught these people to be victoms and that victoms are inferior and all there problems are because they are oppressed by whitey the majority.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
yup and guess what. They are now called the "Majority-minority". To some, using common sense, it would seem that being the "majority" population in a state would entail they could no longer claim minority/victom status. But, alas, we've taught these people to be victoms and that victoms are inferior and all there problems are because they are oppressed by whitey the majority.
Well I would assume that the whites are still the largest group...in the non white group your going to have blacks, mexicans and native indians (combined they are a larger group).
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Originally posted by Ripper29
I read in the paper this morning that in Texas the non whites represent over 50% of the population.
Texas becomes fourth state to have non-white majority population
08/10/2005 @ 6:03 pm
Texas has become the fourth state to have a non-white majority population,
the U.S. Census Bureau said Thursday, a trend driven by a surging number of
Hispanics moving to the state, the AP's Alicia Caldwell is set to report
late Wednesday night for Thursday newspapers. Excerpts follow...
#
According to the population estimates based on the 2000 Census, about 50.2
percent of Texans are now minorities. In the 2000 Census, minorities made up
about 47 percent of the population in the second-largest state.
Texas joins California, New Mexico and Hawaii as states with
majority-minority populations - with Hispanics the largest group in every
state but Hawaii, where it is Asian-Americans.
Five other states - Maryland, Mississippi, Georgia, New York and Arizona -
aren't far behind, with about 40 percent minorities.
Public policy analysts said these states and the country as a whole need to
bring minority education and professional achievement to the levels of
whites. Otherwise, these areas risk becoming poorer and less competitive.
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It would be nice if the FED GOV does something to curb illegal immigration
but in return...
(I wish...) I want the I.N.S. would speed up the "Green Card" process (Hispanics and somtimes us Filipinos call it "papelles") to those who entred US legitimately! (like me:)). In California it took 6 years foe me and my family to get the greencard and IMO that wait is too long! That Green Card is special for us because it helped my older sister to get in Mt. St. Marry's College in L.A. (Girls-only Catholic University). She had the full schollarship, but not teh green card. IMO The Green Card elevatged us to high middle class status.
PS. We're not the "typical immagrants" who come tpo USA in your point of view;) In the Philippines, English is the 2nd OFFICIAL LANGUAGE and most Filipinos who come here (mostly with high-skilled proffesional backgrounds) knows how to read, write, and speak english. My "accent" is still present :D
I have to wait for another ~4 to 6 years to be a USA citizen... and teh time to wait is toooo long!:D I've been "Americanised" loong before I stepped outside of L..A.X.!:D
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SkyDancer you're just plain wrong. Multiculturalism working in UK ROFLMAO !!!!! If you see the loss of national indentity, the creeping encroachment of Islam into our society, the forced acceptance of cultural behaviours that were previously unacceptable, the law for one and diferrent law for another as multiculturalism working then it is a sad day for the UK.
Immigration to the USA worked because of INTEGRATION not multiculturalism - the fact that when you emmigrated you gave up your old life and took up American life. That is the unity factor. Perhaps that ex congressman will help wake up the US to the mistakes of others.
I am in Southern Claifornia now on business and it is like two countries in one - as much Mexican / south American as English speaking. A week ago I was in the Pacific NW. In Seattle I knew I was in the US - different people of all parts of the world but all American. Here in LA - I could be anywhere.
I look at my home town and cannot see the place I grew up. A town now with over 30% of the population immigrant or of immigrant family. I walk the main town street and struggle to hear english spoken - Urdu, Russian, Turkish, Arabic, Baltic languages .......... no english - and yes I mean I can go some distance and hear NO english. The housing once for the workers of local engineering companies now Asian ghettos with two huge Mosques towering over them. The school I went to and which now when my daughter went to it the white students feel a threatened minority and the school board had to create exam entry routes to keep some white contingent.
I hate what is happenning to my home town and my country - it no longer feels like home. I am white, middle class and middle aged and I am sick and tired of seeing my home transformed into some multicultural hell and being told I am rascist if I don't agree with it - that the experiment is working. I am not alone, perhaps Skydancer you should get out and talk to people more.
Integration has worked in the past in the UK - Indian asians, Polish, Italians - all came looking for a new life and took on Britain as a home lock stock and barrel. Those people took on the country and nationality and ADDED to it. Multiculturalism is taking the passport and taking away any parts of the nation you don't agree with.
Do I hate people of other nations and cultures - absolutely not.
Will I fight people who wish to impose their culture and beliefs on my country - yes.
I think that is the sentiment of the speech above.
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Originally posted by Sparks
SkyDancer you're just plain wrong. Multiculturalism working in UK ROFLMAO !!!!! If you see the loss of national indentity, the creeping encroachment of Islam into our society, the forced acceptance of cultural behaviours that were previously unacceptable, the law for one and diferrent law for another as multiculturalism working then it is a sad day for the UK.
Immigration to the USA worked because of INTEGRATION not multiculturalism - the fact that when you emmigrated you gave up your old life and took up American life. That is the unity factor. Perhaps that ex congressman will help wake up the US to the mistakes of others.
I am in Southern Claifornia now on business and it is like two countries in one - as much Mexican / south American as English speaking. A week ago I was in the Pacific NW. In Seattle I knew I was in the US - different people of all parts of the world but all American. Here in LA - I could be anywhere.
I look at my home town and cannot see the place I grew up. A town now with over 30% of the population immigrant or of immigrant family. I walk the main town street and struggle to hear english spoken - Urdu, Russian, Turkish, Arabic, Baltic languages .......... no english - and yes I mean I can go some distance and hear NO english. The housing once for the workers of local engineering companies now Asian ghettos with two huge Mosques towering over them. The school I went to and which now when my daughter went to it the white students feel a threatened minority and the school board had to create exam entry routes to keep some white contingent.
I hate what is happenning to my home town and my country - it no longer feels like home. I am white, middle class and middle aged and I am sick and tired of seeing my home transformed into some multicultural hell and being told I am rascist if I don't agree with it - that the experiment is working. I am not alone, perhaps Skydancer you should get out and talk to people more.
Integration has worked in the past in the UK - Indian asians, Polish, Italians - all came looking for a new life and took on Britain as a home lock stock and barrel. Those people took on the country and nationality and ADDED to it. Multiculturalism is taking the passport and taking away any parts of the nation you don't agree with.
Do I hate people of other nations and cultures - absolutely not.
Will I fight people who wish to impose their culture and beliefs on my country - yes.
I think that is the sentiment of the speech above.
well said. :aok but again this isn't a UK is bad thread at all. The same thing that happens in the UK happens in the US as well.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
So how come its working here! I don't see a destroyed Britain. Infact we are about the strongest nation in Europe economicaly and politicaly.
I see a destroyed United Kingdom.
Economicaly strong? As strong as Kuwait? We produce more oil.
Politicaly Strong? Being Bush's poodle makes us strong? Could we repeat the Falklands today?
And in the birthplace of Shakespeare there's more Urdu spoken than English.
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Oh dear.
Actualy I do get out and speak to a lot of people. Many of them young and definately our future. I'm a youth worker up here in Birmingham. Yes there are problems. Yes "multiculturalism " as some see it does not work. But the reality is the UK population is always changing. New cultures languages etc. It has been right throughout history. This country has never had a static "identity" thats what makes us Great Britain! So its no good burying your head in the sand and wishing it away or trying to turn back the clock. You have to learn to get on with it and them. Yes Blair is stupid for being Bush's poodle over Iraq, but we are much stronger than many parts of Europe and I would say carry more influence on the international stage. We are never going to be a great empire again. Well not for a bit anyhow. And we are never going to be a homogenous nation though I doubt we ever were realy.
Actualy Sparks I kind of feel a bit sorry for you. The England you want has gone. Face up to the new England and you might find some good stuff about it! Cheer up old chap. Not all Moslems are bombers or invaders, and they do know how to make a good curry!
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Originally posted by Skydancer
We are a nation who invented Democracy!
Thought the Greeks did that?
Abolished Slavery!
Started it too, with the Portugese, Spanish, Dutch and French.
Fought to world wars to defeat Millitarism and Facism!
Which were started as a result of the arms race/Empire clash between France, Germany, Britain, Russia...
Not saying we're any better, just don't go tootin' your own horn...
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Originally posted by XrightyX
Thought the Greeks did that?
Started it too, with the Portugese, Spanish, Dutch and French.
Which were started as a result of the arms race/Empire clash between France, Germany, Britain, Russia...
Not saying we're any better, just don't go tootin' your own horn...
:rofl :rofl :rofl
some people just don't get it do they.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
We are a nation who invented Democracy!
errrr ahhhh ummmmm
Never mind I'll let someone else do it. I dont have the heart
Didnt realise AL Gore spent time on the boards:D
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Well Ok the greeks did invent democracy. But we did a good job of modifying the concept to become parlimentary democracy which incidentaly the Aussies, Canadians, and Indians to name a few also thought might be quite a good idea.
But the slavery thing was started way before us lot had a go and we were the first to end it when voices of protest were raised too!
Of course you can't just blame European nations for slavery. The Africans sold each other into slavery and the Arab world was trading african slaves way before us european latecomers. Mombasa was a slave port not a Kenyan holiday centre!
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Well Ok the greeks did invent democracy. But we did a good job of modifying the concept to become parlimentary democracy which incidentaly the Aussies, Canadians, and Indians to name a few also thought might be quite a good idea.
But the slavery thing was started way before us lot had a go and we were the first to end it when voices of protest were raised too!
Of course you can't just blame European nations for slavery. The Africans sold each other into slavery and the Arab world was trading african slaves way before us european latecomers. Mombasa was a slave port not a Kenyan holiday centre!
you were the one that brought the issue up. No one is really debating slavery here. THe thread title is "wake up america" not "wake up UK" Up until last months bombings I would have thought it was too late for y'all
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The Roanoke Times reports that officials at Virginia Tech are allowing sexually segregated classes for visiting Saudi students because US officials don’t want to “impress our culture on them.”
The students, some 60 faculty members from King Abdulaziz University, are taking identical development courses at Tech this summer but instead of being integrated they are segregated sexually.
http://www.roanoke.com/printer/prin...spx?arcID=28903
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Only problem Guns is that you left this part out.
"The program is being offered through a contract arrangement between the two schools and not with state money, Hincker said."
Wonder how much VT got for doing it the "Saudi way". They pay, they can have it how they want.
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Originally posted by lazs2
We have entire states where whites are becoming a minority and english is becomeing a minor language.
There are neighborhoods in the U.S. where you couldn't survive the afternoon because you were white.
lazs
I wish Whites were a minority, perhaps I could have gotten a Student Grant instead of a Student loan. lol:) But seriously I could care less about who is a minority and who is a majority. Intelligence is all that matters.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Sorry, didn't see your edit above.
I'm not saying that the bombings will cause your country to fragment, merely saying that the fact that these are home-grown terrorists implies that everbody isn't on the same page. That says that there is a significant population in your country which is not well integrated. These relatively few people who took action did not act in isolation; they've been bred, indoctrinated, or whatever word you want to use, to believe that there's something so wrong in your country that people deserve to die for it. These kids didn't come to this conclusion on their own -- as our beloved Hillary Clinton (;)) would say, "It takes a village."
So explain to me what Bush means by "We fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here" Doesnt the Britian Bombing prove that statement false?
Anyone else think anyone who has traveled to Pakistan/Afghanistan in the last 6 years ought to be investigated thoroughly???
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Originally posted by Raider179
I wish Whites were a minority, perhaps I could have gotten a Student Grant instead of a Student loan. lol:) But seriously I could care less about who is a minority and who is a majority. Intelligence is all that matters.
but the question at hand is if you didn't have that intellegence would you blame it on lack of cultural sensativity (IE it's all whitey's fault)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
but the question at hand is if you didn't have that intellegence would you blame it on lack of cultural sensativity (IE it's all whitey's fault)
Well its a loaded question. To be honest, I feel its a Yes and No answer. Which I hate giving because it sounds like an easy way out. No, ultimately all people are responsible for their own destiny/fate, whether that includes being a homeless bum, or whether they become CEO's of big companies. Yes, in the fact that there are still racists and they will not hire/promote or give a person of ethnicity the same respect or help that they would another "white" person.
My parents always taught me you have no one to blame but yourself. I agree, but there are always exceptions to the rule, escpecially when dealing with racism. btw I am in favor of racial profiling for terrorists.
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I'll pass on commenting on the patronising tone ...........
Many of them young and definately our future. I'm a youth worker up here in Birmingham.
You mean the young asian community which when surveyed over 30% thought the UK and US were decadent societies which needed ending ?? the ones from Pakistani families who, totally commited to integrating into European ways ha ha , go back to Pakistan to the Madrasa's to learn Islam ?? That's our future ??
Yes there are problems. Yes "multiculturalism " as some see it does not work. But the reality is the UK population is always changing. New cultures languages etc. It has been right throughout history.
You mean the invasions of other European nations like the French, Scandanavians etc ?? Ones with cultures much like ours ....
The changes in our country have happened gradually over hundreds of years - not in the space of 10 or 20 and by legalised economic invasion.
So its no good burying your head in the sand and wishing it away or trying to turn back the clock. You have to learn to get on with it and them.
Oh I'm not burying my head in the sand, in fact much the opposite. For the past years I have kept quiet for fear of being branded a racist. Now I don't give a damn. I don't have to learn to get on with it and them as you put it - as far as I'm concerned it's the other way round - it's time they learned to live with me.
Yes Blair is stupid for being Bush's poodle over Iraq,
What in god's name has Iraq got to do with it ???
... we are much stronger than many parts of Europe and I would say carry more influence on the international stage.
Stronger in what ways ?? Our manufacturing base is decimated, we have a social system we can't afford, our education system is one of the worst and standards are falling, our current "prosperity" has been funded by the largest ever consumer debt based on a property bubble, our military is shrinking and under equiped.
And we are never going to be a homogenous nation though I doubt we ever were realy.
A nation that isn't homogenous is not a nation, it's a group of disparate peoples in an economically useful arrangement.
Actualy Sparks I kind of feel a bit sorry for you. The England you want has gone. Face up to the new England and you might find some good stuff about it! Cheer up old chap. Not all Moslems are bombers or invaders, and they do know how to make a good curry!
I'm not looking for your pity Skydancer, actually I pity you. The country you and your ancesters were born in is been taken from you by stealth and you're buying into the myth. The time may come when we will face up to the new England and it may not be in the way people expect. A good curry is a pretty bad trade for a nations identity.
The new UK and for that matter the new USA post immigration may well be different but I'll be damned if we just have to lay back and accept what the immigrant population demands like cheap potatos.
Multiculturalism is economic migration by the back door - set up your own mini-country in a better environment and turn it into a home from home. True immigration is about integration.
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well said sparks,
many of us in the US feel the same way excepte we are the "silent majority". When ever somone speaks out against illegal imigration they get labled a racist. Thus one of many Dick Lamm's points in his speech. That's pretty much all they have to do to shut down opposing ideas is label them racist.
In college they call it "creating a hostile learning environment" because of that most professors can't actually teach for fear of offending somone. Imagine that, the subject might be offfensive so learning takes a back seat to it.
This all started with political correctness and has spiraled into "diversity" and "multiculturalism" and such. I have no problem with immigrants, what I don't want is our country changing laws/rules to make them happy. My kids shouldn't have to learn THEIR language they should learn ours.
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Learning any second language isn't a fatal injury - you can survive the experience and maybe even learn a little bit about another culture by having a firsthand conversation.
Like it or not, learning to get along with others of a different race, or language, or nationality, or hair color, or political persuasion can help you appreciate the short and pathetic existence we call life on this planet. You'll learn that there are smart, clever, interesting, talented, ignorant and stupid people everywhere - not necessarily in that order.
At what point do immigrants become part of the status quo? Is it after 1 generation, or 2, or 3? Are those who were smart enough to be born into a middle-class, 1st world, majority race 30 - 50 years ago entitled to look down their noses at those who were not smart enough to be born into the same group?
If the majority of a state is now comprised of group that used to be a minority, does democracy and majority rule go out the window?
If an area was populated by an ethnic group hundreds of years ago before nations and nationalism invented patriotism toward colored ribbons instead of toward a culture, and all the land on Earth was 'claimed' by those with the power and technology to claim it, is it not ironic to see it re-claimed via immigration and migration?
And last, but not least, don't these questions give you a headache and are better left ignored?
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To me America is apple pie, football, mom, and John Wayne. Any color can fit into that. Its the culture that disrupts it. I love it when I see an oriental or indian saying .."Ah geez Beav". It means its working.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
To me America is apple pie, football, mom, and John Wayne. Any color can fit into that. Its the culture that disrupts it. I love it when I see an oriental or indian saying .."Ah geez Beav". It means its working.
Amen,
There's nothing more American than seeing somone come here with nothing and become something in life. It's not impossible at all.
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What gets me about America is that it is alright to be a racist as long as you are not White.
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Originally posted by Xargos
What gets me about America is that it is alright to be a racist as long as you are not White.
That's not unique to the US. Do gooder, guilt tripping whites are are some of the biggest supporters of racism. Imo they can do a hell of a lot of harm... cause resentment amongst whites for one thing, which can leed to prejudice where there was none. But the condescending avacados are usually to up themselves to see the damage they do.
Excel
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What i learned at school is the USA is a melting pot .
Keep melting about 4-5 generations u all have the same colour.
The american language wich isnt english anymore afterall.
Will get some spanic vocabulair within.
whats the prob.
nothing is permanent only change is.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
What i learned at school is the USA is a melting pot .
Keep melting about 4-5 generations u all have the same colour.
The american language wich isnt english anymore afterall.
Will get some spanic vocabulair within.
whats the prob.
nothing is permanent only change is.
I see your point; but that's the same as saying in 3-4 generations all Dutchmen will be the same colour; and that Dutch will get some Surinaamse or Indo vocabulary (en nej; Ik bedoel ikke pinda suppe!); how does this theory hold up in the Bijmeer?
I think there's a growing compromise/backlash between the old reactionary conservatism/racism which dictated that a "typical" westerner was white and the post war push to "multiculturalism"; and that's a growing feeling that most people don't give a dam what _colour_ their neighbour is; as long as he's a local; and in effect; supports the same football team.
So to condense it:
Nieghbours colour = irrelevant
Nieghbours cultural frame of reference = the crucial factor.
We've tried for too long to contain competing cultural groups in single national contailners; which was dumb.
We only have to trace the history or Judaism; Roma and Belgium to see how succesful that idea has been.
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Blimey. So much fear of change!
Rolex Bug I think you are right. You others... well things are going to change so might as well accept it and get on with it. Not trying to be condescending just thats the way it is.
Sparks you are never going to be happy in the UK anymore by the sounds of so maybe its time for you to become somewhere elses immigrant?
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Originally posted by Rolex
Learning any second language isn't a fatal injury - you can survive the experience and maybe even learn a little bit about another culture by having a firsthand conversation.
Ok I learned german as a kid, and it helped when I lived there, the only thing I complained about not being in english was, entertainment available that was of US origin. I didnt whine or complain that I cant read signs or menus or crap like that and wanting it to be in my own language
But I will be ****** if I learn 1 single word of spanish to talk to anyone here. You come to a country you learn its language or go back to where you can read signs and forms in your own language.
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US is a nation of immigrants and different cultures. It is not weaker as a result it is stronger. I do think you have a more segregated society though. Or at least it appears that way from the outside. I realise I could be wrong
Yup, you're wrong.
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Playing devil's advocate here as I'm not up to date on the situatiion and have extremely limited and dated experience concerning this topic. This is a biased opinion somewhat and offered as another point of view. The speech seemed political to me and even had a generous helping of psychobabble as evidenced by the unanimous lack of reaction or questions by the audience. Surely someone there would have said, hey wait a minute that ain't right!!! Either no one understood the speech, or didn' have the balls to raise their hand (which is the case with psychobabble.) These words are not everyday conversational words and are hard to follow for regular people.
Why use words found in an "academic" environment, if the message was important or not directed to "academics"? So the academic types would be confounded? Again the lack of reaction is telltale of the audience not comprehending the message, the same way an entire audience might applaud total nonsense out of fear they might look stupid for asking "What did you say?" Even if clearly understood, I can understand how an audience would be speechless in awe. Example below:
'The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved! Not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.'"
Translation:
We could all get along better with our fellow men by having a strong leader. Without western culture being the predominant influence in America, as guided by the builders of the western word, Greece (and Rome,) our nation is now succumbing to a philosophy there is no right from wrong. (And we must address this or the nation will be destroyed.)
Saying something like that in Colorado is very bellicose, being directed at Mexicans. Why not just come out and say the Spanish culture is largely immoral and we're getting tired of it? We blame it for the bad things that go on around here, and in all America as well.
Spanish has been a United States language for awhile. It's as official as English out West (or was) and can't really be considered an outsider language. This was the only language high school was taught in back in New Mexico before WW2. I don't know but exclusive Spanish language teaching in the schools probably held true for Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, California and west Texas (any rural areas with sparce populations...before WW2.)
Not trying to get into any "they were here before us" argument. Am only saying there were enough Spanish speaking people out west to where you could call Spanish a language inherent to that area. So it's not a foreign language the way German is, for example (even though German is closer to English in some ways.)
I can understand the touchy situation with immigration by our neighbors to the south (Mexico.) Mexico may feel it is their territory still and have a right to cross the border to their land.
I remember my Dad saying once that Mexico will eventually get all that territory back, though he didn't mention massive immigration, he implied it. He told me this
25 years ago and matter of factly, as if it was as certain as the sunrise. I'm not sure he was all that concerned about it at the time because it was not a serious problem then as it is apparently shaping up to be now. My Dad's experience was HS in the 30s in Albuquerque, NM, after which he went to sea from New Orleans to Argentina at the age of 18.
Far as being exposed to another language, it was required in 4th grade as I remember. The language was French. Can't remember any of it but it was fun as it could be for 4th graders. Our teacher Mrs. Ford kept our attention by some of her storytelling, which would be considered bizarre by today's standards, f.g. the man who chopped up his wife and sold her for bear meat on the Causeway. We were held spellbound by the old woman's tales (lots of ghost and haunted house stories.) The fact she looked like an old crone with a cane and had a limp always set the proper atmosphere. The kids loved it!!! They don't make them kind today and we sure didn't fool around with her or her fellow teachers outta fear Mrs. Ford would hear about it.
It was a requirement in high school to take a few language courses (French, Spanish, German or Latin.) As I see it, the great value of studying a foreigh language is this...it helps us to better understand our own language, and yes, to understand our differences due to culture being so closely linked to language. Maybe the only good that came from that was I learned more English grammar studying Spanish than I did in English class. You be the judge.
My .02 cents. Everyone living in the US should have basic knowledge of both the English and Spanish languages. They are both modern native primary languages of the United States. I didn't care for the tone of the governor's speech, but he did get his point across.
Dang if it didn't sound very provocative. Almost warlike.
Now I'm quitting while I'm ahead, and still have one. Besides, it's siesta time.:D Adios amigos.
Les
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I think I will just let skyprancers countrymen kick his butt... He is on the government payroll so he sees multiculturalism as a tit to nurture him... More government programs and more multiculturalism means he stays employed... the more chaos the better for him.
There is nothing wrong with expecting everyone in a country to speak and read and understand the same language as part of being a citizen... It makes a country stronger. Multiculturalism is a huge waste of resources and a means of keeping minoritiues seperate and unable to compete.
I have nothing against learning a second language or learning anything for that matter but.... when you are allmost forced too.... it better be because you are living in a different country than the one you were born in.
skyprancer sees his country in a different way than his fellow countrymen do... he sees it from the vantagepoint of one who is paid to help the minorities that others see as the problem.... they are not a problem for him... they are his mealticket. England is not a diverse country... no matter what it has only 3% minorities and they are highly segregated as even skyprancer admits... they aren't allowed out in the country or other areas (the good ones) It is not that way here...
In America.. everyone has a chance.. we have minorities living in gated communities and living in every neighborhood... they are excepted and the more they become Americans the more they are accepted... we also have british type minorities that live a criminal life in self made ghettos in self made excile speaking a language that is not of their adopted country. Gated comunities for them have bars on em.
I want to make english the offiocial language of the country. I want no documents printed in anything but english. I want no person not here legally to be able to be employed... employers need to be jailed if they hire illegals.
People are not worthless and stupid... but we are lazy if allowed.. we take the easy way... I belive that under the rules I describe the hard working legal immigrants will continue to be an asset to our country... no other way can work. giving people easy outs and allowing them to be criminals speaking in tounges is not the answer.
lazs
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Alot of good points in this thread so far but most are forgetting one of the basic fundamentals here:
Yes we are a melting pot. If you put oil and water into that pot they aint gonna mix. Same goes for cultures that tend to clash. If there is no common element between the cultures there wont be an American culture.
This multiculturalism/diversity crap will ruin America. Without a common language we will not survive as a culture. I'm not saying it is wrong to learn a second language but if I'm gonna learn spanish these people darn well should learn english.
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Spanish has been a United States language for awhile. It's as official as English out West (or was) and can't really be considered an outsider language. .
Horse *****
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Originally posted by Steve
Horse *****
yup when people are Expected to learn multiple languages just to communicate we might as well be Europe.
EDIT:
Yea think about it if people are EXPECTED to learn spanish out west wouldn't that be discriminatory to the Asians.
Heck Kalifornia alone would have to teach English, Spanish, Jappanes, Korean, Chinese (all major dialects). I guess it wouldn't be so bad, they can't teach history anymore, it might offends somone who's race was trampled on in the past. Can't teach science, woman might get offended when they find out they are biologically different.
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We dutch have to learn english and german mostly.
English is very much used and the word sht is very common used here.
I wish i could speak a bit spanish its a sexy language. :)
Now my litle kid watches Dora and learns a bit english with it.
I understand she a latino american learning american kids a bit spanish.
whats wrong with it i like it, she loves it.
(http://www.toonattik.tv/watch/images/dora_explorer/dora06l.jpg)
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There you go with another cliche link Skydancer - that objection to events is automatically fear of those events. No not fear - anger, yes; bitternes over the wekaness of our "leaders", yes ; disgust at the open abuse of our countries resources, yes ; hatred of those that come into the country illegally and with criminal intent, yes; sorrow for those that come into the country legally with the intent of starting a new life for themselves and their family and who get marked as the others, yes; greif over the loss of what we had, yes ......... fear .....no.
You shouldn't fear change Skydancer but you should manage it. To let it just "happen" is irresponsible and lazy - a feature I see too often in the young of the UK today. Change is what brings development and improvement, as Ron Denis said about formula 1 "if you don't change you are going backwards" , but change without management is the course to anarchy.
You others... well things are going to change so might as well accept it and get on with it. Not trying to be condescending just thats the way it is.
[/b]
Am I fearful then ? No, just mightily pissed off at the lazy, weak willed, politcally correct wasters leading this country into chaos.
You just lay back and accept it then - it's certainly easier that way and I'm sure that those other wonderful cultures you wish to embrace and help to bloom in their own little mini countries all over the UK think that is a good idea too ...... this multicultural medoly will all fit seamlessly togther in national harmony because we all know the Kurds and Turks get on famously, and the Chinese triad families love the russian and lithuanian mafia, oh and the somalis just love all of us.
As for leaving SkyDancer, actually thats exactly what I'm looking at as there appears to be no end to the lunacy and I want my daughter out of there. So the UK will lose another skilled worker and another college entrant, and I am by no means the only one. Take a look at the figures for skilled blue collar and white collar workers leaving or retiring early and moving away.
The UK doesn't need people leaving it actually needs people entering - immigrants - legal immigrants with a desire to integrate, provide and contribute to the country - to become part of the British nation - to think of themselves as British and educate their children in Britain under a British system with British laws and values, to earn British money and not ship it home to foreign families, to compete in the open market like anyone else for jobs and to qualify for benefits in the same way as anyone else, to pay in to the system and not abuse the system, to take on the national language as their own. To be British citizens of whatever colour, race or background.
In the UK and in the USA (which is what this thread is supposed to be about) the immigration question isn't about race or colour it's about national identity and the notion of "home" . Taking your country with you to another country is not immigration it's invasion - always has been.
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Lazs you said
"they aren't allowed out in the country or other areas (the good ones) It is not that way here... "
Wrong I'm afraid. Anyone is allowed to live anywhere. Its probably economics thats stopping people move to countryside areas. Infact thats what stops me. House prices are pretty steep in our greenn and pleasent countryside!
"I want to make english the official language of the country. I want no documents printed in anything but english. I want no person not here legally to be able to be employed... employers need to be jailed if they hire illegals."
Actualy your right! Though I see no problem printing stuff in oither languages to help those newly arrived. Its called translation and live here long enough and you will end up learning English. Unless you are daft or Lazy. Its a question of time. The children of these immigrants will become as British as young British Asians, Children of Carribean immigrants, Irish Immigrants, Hugenots, Normans, Anglo Saxons, Vikings, Romans, etc etc.
I agree Illegal immigration is not realy desirable. It seemed to me the good senators speach displayed a fear of immigration full stop.
He sounds like King Canute trying to stop the waves. Frankly its a bit ridiculous. Christianity is an immigrant religion. Before those pesky monks, Brits were happy worshipping nature and other gods. English is a development of immigrant tongues. An amalgam of Latin, Anglo Saxon, and French plus a smattering of Germanic languages. Want to hear our origional tongue. Listen to a Welsh or Gallic speaker!
Its just a bit daft to fear immigration and loss of identity. This nation was built on and improved by successive generations of immigration over centuries. Take the long view and a few Moslems and others with brown faces doesn't seem so scary.
Now Ok I'm talking about the UK but the priciple is the same wherever. We've had centuries of Immigration and are pretty good at keeping our society going and seem tio have a fairly clear identity. The US as it exists has had less time. Give it longer and it;'ll all turn out OK I'm sure.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Its just a bit daft to fear immigration and loss of identity. This nation was built on and improved by successive generations of immigration over centuries. Take the long view and a few Moslems and others with brown faces doesn't seem so scary.
I'm sure that Harold II had the same enlightened view.
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:lol Probably not but us Saxons and Normans seem to get along OK now! Few teething problems but we're doing OK thanks!:lol :aok
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I agree Illegal immigration is not realy desirable.
Not really desirable ???? whoa don't go over the top there. Is that like someone breaking into your "bahaving in a fairly poor way" ??? For cris sake these people are STEALING from us - all of us.
English is a development of immigrant tongues. An amalgam of Latin, Anglo Saxon, and French plus a smattering of Germanic languages.
So lets just look at this previous "immigration" which you look at so benevolently: -
Latin, ah yes the romans - well they invaded us and masacred thousands fighting Boudica. Then spent 400 years here during which time parts of Latin merged with ours.
Saxon, the sweet Germans from Saxony who .... yes invaded us and who again over hundreds of years gave us some language.
And those nice French who again in 1066 ....... invaded us and killed the English king - how multicutural of them.
Notice how at each juncture we did actaully fight them and notice too how in the 1800's , 1918 and 1945 we actaully won similar fights against other attempts at "multicultural merging"
Its just a bit daft to fear immigration and loss of identity.
Why do you insist on labeling it as fear to object to a loss of identity ???
This nation was built on and improved by successive generations of immigration over centuries.
Ah a true statement - but notice that previous generations integrated into British society of the time. As recent as the 70's the imigrant populations were distributed widely within the general population, my grandparents neighbours on one side were polish and on the other Italian. Al considered Britain their home.
Take the long view and a few Moslems and others with brown faces doesn't seem so scary.
You seem to subscribe to the paradigm that this is linked to skin colour and religion - you wish to push the race card that this is about hatred of people of other religions and colour. That is actually being more racist than me. Let me be clear - an immigrant is any non national from any country who wishes to reside in another country. This issue is not about being an immigrant - it's about whether an immigrant brings his home with them or leaves it behind and takes on their new country as their own.
We've had centuries of Immigration and are pretty good at keeping our society going and seem tio have a fairly clear identity.
We do ?? define it please - the identity of the UK in 2005 ....
Give it longer and it;'ll all turn out OK I'm sure.
and if it doesn't I'm sure someone else will come and clear the mess up for you because after all it won't have been your fault ....
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:rolleyes:
Well considering the violence of these previous immigrants then, maybe the current wave are quite nice! I mean they're only speaking in funny foreign voices, wearing different clothes, worshiping a different nonsense and improving our diet! What a begnign and freindly lot! ;)
Oh and remember, in recent years its British Citizens from NI that have been killing and blowing up people here. Not funny foreigners or their kids, from dark and dangerous lands!
Honestly I feel much better about immigration now. Thanks Sparks!
Oh yeah our national character/identity.
A country with a rich history, continuous monarchy, Parlimentary Democracy, relatively tolerant, easy going, welcoming. A nation of traders, gardeners, eccentrics. Good at innovating, stubborn, proud and not prone to hysterical displays of emotion or fervour or extremes. I think we are still that, and actualy thats why people want to come here. If they didn't thebn I'd begin to worry!
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A country with a rich history, continuous monarchy, Parlimentary Democracy, relatively tolerant, easy going, welcoming.
Standard stuff I'd go along with.
A nation of traders,
traders !! thats a good one - a ntion of bankers and insurance companies more like - we don't make anything any more.
gardeners,
well you can scratch that as the years go by - take a drive down any non-euro neighbourhood and count the number of tidy lawns and flowers.
eccentrics.
Eccentricity is a national identity - oh good.
Good at innovating,
Really ?? thats why our car industry has died ? Why our aircraft industry is dependant on license production deals and joint ventures ?, why the initial prime contractor for our new aircraft carriers was a French company until the government stepped in. ? Why universities are finding it hard to enrol physics and engineering students ??
stubborn,
or do you mean fearful of change ??
proud
proud of what ??
and not prone to hysterical displays of emotion or fervour or extremes.
like the stately conservatism of Princess Dianas funeral ??
I think we are still that,
Then I'm afraid you are living in a London postcard fantasy.
and actualy thats why people want to come here.
So they jump on moving trains in France and hide in containers to be an eccentric shopkeeper and have a garden ?? or maybe the free health care and benefits have something to do with it ? or maybe the easy black market working ? or maybe the free housing ??
If they didn't thebn I'd begin to worry!
maybe , just maybe you should be worrying.
Tell me, if laws were passed that allowed businesses owned by Moslems to be run under Islamic law, i.e. non equality of women etc, would you be happy ?? If arranged marriage against the will of the woman was made legal would you be ok with that ??
Are you happy with cash from imigrant owned businesses being sent out of the country ??
All of the things such as democracy and tolerance are just those things that are under threat here and you suggest that we should just sit back and let change happen as we can't stop it. Have you ever lived in or visited one of the countries from which the majority of these immigrants are coming from for an extended period outside a holiday resort ??
Just one more example of how other countries as liberal as us are seeing a threat. Holland accepted many Somalis as refugees. The dutch benefits system is as good as ours and the Netherlands is a liberal and free country. However the dutch had a requirement that allocated which districts new arrivals could live in in order to spread them around and encourage integration. These Somalis - so grateful to get out of their war torn country were, however, not that grateful and wishing to continue their own ways in their own community but in a safer country and not integrate left Holland and went to ....... Britain. Specifically 2-3000 of them and specifically to one or two streets in Liecester - now virtual no go areas. These people do not want to integrate - they want their own countries culture with the western culture benefits. I think your own signature says with rights come responsibilites ....... well those benefits have not arisen in the cultures and countries they left - thats why they left. The right to the benefits requires the responsibilty to continue the culture that makes them possible.
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Sparks. I think you'd best move, this country is obviously getting you down.
Ta ra!
;)
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Originally posted by FiLtH
To me America is apple pie, football, mom, and John Wayne. Any color can fit into that. Its the culture that disrupts it. I love it when I see an oriental or indian saying .."Ah geez Beav". It means its working.
Actually, cultures do not disrupt America, ones culture can co-exist peacefully as long as you don't force it down anyones throat via politics or maliciously manipulating the first amendment.
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geeze sparks.... I think you are gonna make him cry... And people say that I am mean to him!
Fantasy england asside..... you are not integraded or multicultural... The brits have adopted cute little names for every culture they have ever met (and subdgegated).
You don't have any idea of what the U.S. is like with our huge influx of illegals and the strain on our infrastructure... People in the U.S. are more welcoming and tolerant than any other nation on earth. But..
Multiculturalism should be reserved for parades and resteraunts and parties... documents should be only printed in english or... one language... pick one, and make everyone learn it. If you want a translation of a document... pay a company to make one for you. Or... better yet... learn english.
You want to be here? do it by the rules. You want to hire mexicans? Do it by the rules or go to prison... first offense... mandatory jail time and a fine equal to the average wage of a U.S. citizen for a year for each illegal hired.
I think that the reason that brit politics and socialism bother me so much is because in your decay I see the roots of ours happening.
lazs
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Urm boo hoo ;) My rear end! :lol :lol
Maybe one day I'll get scared of change like you guys too. Till them I'm just fine cheers.
:aok
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change would be to pass a law banning motorcycles... would you be afraid of 'change" in that respect?
lazs
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:rofl Not biting mate. Had my dinner ta!:D
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Originally posted by lazs2
change would be to pass a law banning motorcycles... would you be afraid of 'change" in that respect?
lazs
He's young, vulnerable...way too easy lazs. Pick on someone with your own intellect! :rofl
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/7109603/108529445.jpg)
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You guys crack me up!:lol
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Rule 4.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Sparks. I think you'd best move, this country is obviously getting you down.
Ta ra!
;)
Well I am glad to see you are admiting you lost the argument.
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All empires end!
And this one has had it fifteen minutes. As far as the U S of A is concerned. We will be over run by immigrants and become an eventual police state. More polarization of the haves and have nots will occur and then before you know it. We are a suburb of Mexico city and Toronto.
Uber.
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living in chicago.... I can see how you would be so down.
lazs
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Originally posted by uberhun
All empires end!
And this one has had it fifteen minutes. As far as the U S of A is concerned. We will be over run by immigrants and become an eventual police state. More polarization of the haves and have nots will occur and then before you know it. We are a suburb of Mexico city and Toronto.
Uber.
Only if we keep electing sell out scumbag politicians and have attitudes like yours.
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See Rule #7
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GtoRA2
Who won? Won what?
I'll still be here in my own land when ole Sparky has emigrated and become someone elses immigrant out of sheer frustration and prejudice! Honestly I feel sorry for the guy! He feels like a foreigner in his own land because he can't deal with the fact it changes!
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Originally posted by Excel1
That's not unique to the US. Do gooder, guilt tripping whites are are some of the biggest supporters of racism. Imo they can do a hell of a lot of harm... cause resentment amongst whites for one thing, which can leed to prejudice where there was none. But the condescending avacados are usually to up themselves to see the damage they do.
Excel
i think you missed Xargo's point...
being a racist is not good in any sence, but lately in the US a black man for example can be openly "racist" toward whites, and get popular because of it. look at some of our comedians, they are celebrities, and actually make it "fashionable" to hate whitey.
i woman i knew we a teacher for special needs children in the inner city. the parents tried for a short time to have her replaced with a black teacher, because she would pollute the impressionable kids minds. even after, some of the 1st grade students called her a honkey to her face, and said they were told not to trust her.
encouraging that in public schools is insane. if white students said or did anything CLOSE to that they'd be expelled, as they probably should.
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Sounded to me like since you couldnt argue with his points you used the good old love it or leave it argument.
Well the britsh version anyway.
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I've been Skuzzied???????????
It was such a good rant to your bad attitude comment too GTOra2.
Oh well
Uber.:D
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I got your rule 7 Skuzzie lol:rofl
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To bad I missed it, but apathy about the future government is only going to make it worse. It is NOT hopeless. Yet.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
To bad I missed it, but apathy about the future government is only going to make it worse. It is NOT hopeless. Yet.
Sorry if I came off sounding apathetic. It was not the message I wanted to deliver, as much as I wanted to say that people need to wake up and take back this country from the special interest groups!
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Well then, we are on the same page!
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Originally posted by uberhun
Sorry if I came off sounding apathetic. It was not the message I wanted to deliver, as much as I wanted to say that people need to wake up and take back this country from the special interest groups!
*ahem*...From BOTH sides of the isle...
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GtoRA2
Huh! Couldn't answer his points! What to your satisfaction? I'm quite happy with my answers cheers. And also pretty convinced of their rightness.
No matter though, whoever is right, trying to stop immigration, multi culturalism whatever, is like trying to be King Canute. It ain't going to happen so better to get with the program, or vote for that sad little neo facist BNP party and become increasingly depressed and frustrated Sparky. Or of course you could burger off and be an immigrant somewhere. Bet you would end up taking your version of British culture with you though. ;) :lol
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See and after all that you STILL do not get it.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I think our identity is pretty strong. We are nation of people from all over the world. A product of having a global empire. We are a nation who invented Democracy! Abolished Slavery! Fought to world wars to defeat Millitarism and Facism! Have over 2000 years of history and a thousand years of continuous monarchy, Invented many of the things that we now take for granted. Kicked off Industrialisation to name but a few things.
I think us Brits, whatever religion colour creed we are, are pretty clear about our identity. What we are also clear about is that the identity of a nation changes develops and is fluid. If it isn't the inevitable result is stagnation and death. Change is not something to fear it is something to grab by the horns and run with.
Tarmac you have a point. But we've dealt with that for many a year. We used to have Irish Catholic Republicans, leaving those explosives in Pubs etc and Blowing us up too. Thay were British Citizens as well you know. Its not that new. We're old hands at terrorism unlike your great nation for whom 911 was a wake up call. We were wide awake long before that!
Europeans imported more slaves than North America. Learn your facts. Pretty soon pencils will be banned, and the old ladies will be knitting with straws.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Lazs you are rather ignorant of the current stuation in the UK. We do have Aisian Language Radio Stations. We also have Bilingual teaching in many of our City schools. Not to mention the fact that In Wales we have bilingual education and have had so for years. We have a large Immigrant population in our citys, The countyside may be 97% white but thats not all of Britain is it? Honestly you betray as much ignorance about the UK as I'm sure you think I do about the US empire;)
Skyprancer, are you the Pot or the Kettle? If you're gonna slam someone, spell yer words right.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Its just a bit daft to fear immigration and loss of identity.
I tried the illustration of Harold II before, maybe I'll try another voice from history...
(http://www.csulb.edu/projects/ais/nae/chapter_4/001_002_4.14.jpg)
"hear me, my chiefs! I am tired; my heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands I will fight no more forever."
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Originally posted by Mustaine
i think you missed Xargo's point...
being a racist is not good in any sence, but lately in the US a black man for example can be openly "racist" toward whites, and get popular because of it. look at some of our comedians, they are celebrities, and actually make it "fashionable" to hate whitey.
i woman i knew we a teacher for special needs children in the inner city. the parents tried for a short time to have her replaced with a black teacher, because she would pollute the impressionable kids minds. even after, some of the 1st grade students called her a honkey to her face, and said they were told not to trust her.
encouraging that in public schools is insane. if white students said or did anything CLOSE to that they'd be expelled, as they probably should.
I get the point, although that example you gave is fairly extreme.
I think that kind of racism can only become common place if- either enough people condone it, or even more people turn a blind eye to it because of PC conditioning .
Things may be a bit differant in the US but in NZ the biggest advocates of a minority discriminating at the exspense of the majority(which includes,white, yellow, brown, black) are mainly white. The white dominated government not only condones this situation, the socialist tards created and foster it... for political reasons.
Excel
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Originally posted by Pooh21
But I will be ****** if I learn 1 single word of spanish to talk to anyone here. You come to a country you learn its language or go back to where you can read signs and forms in your own language.
You must be french.
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Masher just for info I do rather well considering i'm dyslexic and theres no spell checker on this thing but hey. A few misspellings do not denote ignorance.
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skyprancer... I think you and sparky live in different englands.
I don't think he would consider it a great thing to work for the government over the abuse people do to kids. Nothing wrong with that... someone has to help in some way... I just think that he wants a little less government in his life not more. I think that your idea of "change" is.... more and more people working for the government... a more and more powerful government.
From reading him I don't think that is the case with him. I don't believe that more and more socialism is the direction of change that he wants.
I think you want the government to identify abuses and then set them right by hireing an army of people to "care" for the abused.
I think he feels that the government is the biggest abuser of peoples rights... I could be wrong tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by Excel1
I get the point, although that example you gave is fairly extreme.
I think that kind of racism can only become common place if- either enough people condone it, or even more people turn a blind eye to it because of PC conditioning .
Things may be a bit differant in the US but in NZ the biggest advocates of a minority discriminating at the exspense of the majority(which includes,white, yellow, brown, black) are mainly white. The white dominated government not only condones this situation, the socialist tards created and foster it... for political reasons.
Excel
i think thats the difference in our countries...
i see it every day here in milwaukee of all places. it may not always be as extreme (though sometimes in public even more extreme).
it is a bad thing from both sides. whoever the perpetrator is.
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they play by your rules if it comes to Mexifornia, you can lament with the natives.
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Lazs you could be right there! We are both looking at this little place differently for sure.
I guess the biggest difference though is that whilst just like anywhere we have our problems, and govt is sometimes pretty guilty of abuses and major foul ups, I'm generaly happy and realise I quite like the UK we got.
Sparky seems realy unhappy about the UK we got. I know I'd rather be happy than unhappy so I guess I feel like I'm better off than he!
Thing is I've been to a fair few of the other European countries, visited Africa, visited and worked in your good country twice, and though I love the Italien Dolomites, thought the Black Hills in SD were great, was bowled over by the beauty in Kenya, and love the history and people of eastern europe, I'm pretty happy as an Englishman, and think that overall we don't do a bad job of running this little plot. Travel is only great when you enjoy coming home!
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I'm pretty happy as an Englishman
There is a God! :D
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yep... I would like to send you some of our socialists in trade for some of your individualists.
I doubt that sparks loves his country any less than you do. I believe only that he sees change in the wrong direction while you see it as going in the right direction.
He probly has a better shot at being right than you even... given that your country is doing worse instead of better.
lazs
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Rule 4
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Well I'll let you decide Lazs. frankly I don't care if you think we're worse or better. And if by individualists you mean the kind of people who don't give a damn how what they do affects others and see their right to do whatever they want as more important than their responsibility to their family and community then yeah take em all will you! And please give us the kind of people who do care about the society they live in and see themselves as part of that community. i think a bunch of selfish individualists for a bunch of social minded people is a very good swap.
:D
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Well I'll let you decide Lazs. frankly I don't care if you think we're worse or better. And if by individualists you mean the kind of people who don't give a damn how what they do affects others and see their right to do whatever they want as more important than their responsibility to their family and community then yeah take em all will you! And please give us the kind of people who do care about the society they live in and see themselves as part of that community. i think a bunch of selfish individualists for a bunch of social minded people is a very good swap.
:D
Yep sounds like a good deal, you take all the hand wringing do-gooders who take others money through taxes and give it to people who in many cases wont be bothered to help themselves. Those same do-gooders who wine about social oppression while mommy and daddy pay for university. Take the ones that naively think the current crop of people who hate the west but come hear anyway can be turned around with kind words.
We will take the people who depend on themselves to get ahead. The people who work their tulips off, to be able to do what they want, and resent the hell out of more of their money being taken, only to be given to some person who will never get off the government sugar tit. Those people that actually produce, so the do-gooders can tax them and give away the money to people who don’t.
Sounds like a great deal to me.
:D
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It amazes me you guys havent noticed that skydancer has owned you. Hijacked this thread and without triggering the monitors called you "Old", inflexable cowards afraid of changeing to the inevitable swamping of your homelands by the current wave of brown hoards. Ooops, immigrants...............
The problem with the title of this thread is what do Liberals, domestic and forigen, associate the word "America" with, if its not one of their own using it?
Conservitve white christians. Old white men with the power to oppress the less fortunate at home and abroad. Old white people who are racists and bigots. The old world which he predicts will be swept away no matter what you think or feel about it. Or the real damage it may be inflicting upon you and your families quality of life. Why else would you try to speak about it to like minded fellows?
I don't think you can take this thread back from skydancer because to speak about whats really bothering you, skydancer will be able to slam dunk you with the most odius label of all: racist bigot.
I have to applaud him for only giving you enough rope to get labled old cowards. That was very kind of him considering how easily he could have helped you make it to the latter.
After all you take him too lightly with his professional title of Youth Counciler. He does have training in persuading people to take other directions in thier lives, or at least in the current conversation while he's attempting to pursuade a young person down a functional path.
He diverted you as a group from talking about a common concern to defending your basis for this thread and defining each speaker with verbal lables that left you without any argument but sounding like old angry men who may have racist tendancies.
I'm using old angry men in the context that after we late 40 ish to 70's people hurry up and die, skydancer will inherit his utopia. I suspect he's only in his 30's and will be around to see what he's hoping will happen to us and our old white world.
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henh.
When I die, I intend to take my old white world with me.
:cool: