Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: streakeagle on December 10, 2001, 08:03:00 AM
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I don't find "Jap" any more of a slur than "Yank", "Brit", "Nip", "Kraut", or "Jerry". In the context of WWII even "NAZI" isn't a slur, it is an accurate description of the opposition.
I am already annoyed by the fact that aircraft model kits (and flight sims) are leaving off the swastikas on German aircraft markings. People who had just been through WWII and suffered NAZI attrocities never complained about the markings of model kits, why are we so concerned now?
What is so "correct" about revisionist history where anything we find offensive gets edited out? If historical terms such as "Jap" and "NAZI" and aircraft historically marked with swastikas are so offensive, what are we doing playing a game based on killing?
The models hanging from my ceiling are marked as correctly as my skills permit. If you compare a photo of the plane in question to my model, they are nearly identical except for the fingerprints and brushmarks from a sloppy paint job and any errors caused by a faulty decal set. Of my 8 WWII Luftwaffe aircraft, 4 have swastikas. I did not omit them from the other aicraft, they simply were not present on those units.
How come there is no "politically correct" reaction to the red star of the Soviet Union? Stalin and friends tortured and killed as many people for no good reason. Yet I see no pleas to revise the markings of Soviet aircraft so they don't offend anyone who might have been persecuted by the Soviets.
To me, "political correctness" is merely the "politically correct" term for "good-hearted" censorship. Whether I like what someone else says or not, I don't believe in censorship in any way shape or form. I believe in using honest direct language as opposed to trying to come up with an alternative vocabulary that won't offend anyone. In the United States, the Constitution does not guarantee anyone's right to not be offended by what someone else says or does, but it sure as hell guarantees their freedom of speech. Too many people in the country seem to have forgotten that.
While I am ranting and raving on this subject, I would like to mention a story I heard on the news and my opinion about it. After September 11, a U.S. school prohibited displaying the American flag because some of the international students there might find our patriotism offensive. :mad: Should we ban displays of flags or anything marked red, white, and blue on the 4th of July?
If you are not from this country and find our flag or its colors offensive, feel free to say so, feel free to buy one of your own and burn it for the news cameras, or better yet, feel free to leave. If you are from this country and you are worried that our flag might offend visitors, feel free to join those who are offended in any of the above activities, but don't you dare prohibit other Americans from showing pride in their country in public.
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We had a thread on this awhile back. Its my opinion that if someone finds the comment offensive, then I just show the basic curtesy(sp?) of not using the shortened version. We DO have some in the game that do find it alittle offensive, so I just type "Japans" instead of "Japs".
Its simple, if someone finds it offensive, don't use it. This way we all get along. Be warned that I *might* find the word "Redneck" offensive *some day*, but today, you can call me a redneck if you'd like ;)
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dirty redneck :D
you can call me any slang of my nationality or race as long as its not intended in an offensive tone.
i think its not the words that matter, but the intention that they are used.
for example, if i say: "jap pilots are great fighters!" i think its ok, but saying "dirty jap pilots cheat the game" then its another matter.
[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Animal ]
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I think in all my rambling, I failed to convey my point: I don't think people in general (including those whose vocabulary and/or opinion offends me) should have to tailor their words such that it doesn't offend anybody.
Of course people have the right to choose to rephrase their words to minimize offense to others, but I don't think "politically correct people" have a right to enforce their views on others who choose not to be.
I happen to have met some WWII veterans that were greatly offended by the fact that we even do business with Japan (on a level comparable to the way that some people react to swastikas). One WWII submarine veteran in particular used to stand on our pier and curse at every Japanese flagged cargo vessel that pulled into San Diego. He would get angry at anyone who showed any kind of respect to the Japanese. Of course he lost many friends while fighting them in WWII. I can assure you that he is as hurt and angered by seeing a Japanese flag in a U.S. port as a Jew would be seeing a flaming Nazi swastika burning in their yard. But no one is worried about offending him.
I personally try to show respect to most people, but I also tend to speak my mind using the phrases that are common to my dialect (being born and raised in Tampa, FL and having served 8 years in the Navy). If some people are offended by my vernacular, so be it. Not being a politician and not seeking popular votes, I feel no need to carefully edit my thoughts before expressing them. Nor would I ever hold it against anybody else for doing the same whether they are a "Yankee", a "redneck", a "hippie", or even a radical anti-American Muslim.
Of course, expressing an opinion and living your own life the way you choose is one thing. Acting on those opinions and forcing others to comply with them is a whole different ball-game. And that is my complaint about the "PC" police. They expect others to express their opinions in a way that meets their arbitrary standards.
P.S. I agree with Animal wholeheartedly: intent is everything.
[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: streakeagle ]
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I thought "nips" was the derogatory slang term for the Japanese, and "japs" was just a shortened version.
J_A_B
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Nip is/was short for Nipponese. Same as Jap was for Japanese. "Amer" didn't work for "American" so we got tagged with "Yanks" ;)
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Political correctness has done little to address racism and in fact has served to increase animosity between races. In my opinion we need to root out the "cause" of racism rather than "pretty it up" with a bunch of WORDS.
I fly a Japanese plane for the most part...you wanna call me a Jap...fine...wanna call me a Nip...that is fine too...
"Sticks and Stones will break my bones...but names will NEVER hurt me" It was apt when I was a kid...it is apt today.
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B]How come there is no "politically correct" reaction to the red star of the Soviet Union? Stalin and friends tortured and killed as many people for no good reason. Yet I see no pleas to revise the markings of Soviet aircraft so they don't offend anyone who might have been persecuted by the Soviets.[/B]
How come there is no "politically correct" reaction to the white star of the United States? Americans bombed and killed so many people in Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam and Yugoslavia that many people can find USAF insignia offencive too.
But there is one big difference between swastika and both red and white stars. Swastika is a symbol of nazism. And nazism was foung guilty in crimes against humanity by Nuremberg international court. Japanese militarism was under trial in Tokyo international court, but the Red Sun isn't a symbol of am inhuman ideology like nazism. At least it wasn't declared so by an interntional court.
As for swastikas on scaled models or in games - I personaly think that there is a big difference between public display of swastika and swastika used to restore historical events. Otherwise we'll have to erase it from all movies and documental photos. Russian laws don't prohibit swastikas in games, IL-2 Russian version has all swastikas in place, but in Germany it is impossible. AH is an international game with no special versions of FE, so if swastika will appear here this gam will и prohibited in Germany.
If you are not from this country and find our flag or its colors offensive, feel free to say so, feel free to buy one of your own and burn it for the news cameras, or better yet, feel free to leave. If you are from this country and you are worried that our flag might offend visitors, feel free to join those who are offended in any of the above activities, but don't you dare prohibit other Americans from showing pride in their country in public.
Well said. It's your country and you are proud of it. What a nonsence - to prohibit displaying your own national flag!
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Originally posted by Boroda:
[QB]
... but the Red Sun isn't a symbol of am inhuman ideology like nazism.
Surely you are jesting my dear Boroda.
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I dunno.. "Nips" sounds worse. :p
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Originally posted by streakeagle:
I think in all my rambling, I failed to convey my point: I don't think people in general should have to tailor their words such that it doesn't offend anybody.
I cannot find a fault with your logic but besides logic there are other things in life like customs, attitudes and respect. There are quite a lot of things that we can legally do that many other people would find offencive.
There is no way to logically justify why hammer and sickle is not treated equally with swastika. It was a surprise to me that people would find "Jap" but not "Brit" offencive. I just took their word for it and stopped using that term - out of respect for their feelings. Of course I would still use the term if I did not respect people here but then I would not care to post here at all.
There are also some specific legal issues with swastika being outlawed in Germany that poses a problem for any multi-national company.
As for "enforcing PC views", only Hitech can do it here - it's his company and his board.
miko
[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
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Originally posted by Tac:
I dunno.. "Nips" sounds worse. :p
quit looking at my nipples !!!!!
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see what I mean? :D
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NIP NIP NIP
JAP JAP JAP
KRAUT KRAUT KRAUT
CANUCK CANUCK CANUCK
FROG FROG FROG
GOOK GOOK GOOK
CHINK CHINK CHINK
LIMEY LIMEY LIMEY
So, sue me.
;)
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I dont know, pinko sounds pretty accurate for a Russian like baroda.
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Hey Boroda, I think the difference is that the U.S did what it did in the fight against Evil. Now why did Stalin kill all of his own countrymen again?
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Most Japanese find the term 'jap' offensive.
Daff
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I dont give a rats bellybutton about whats offensive in the Japanese language. I bet they would get pretty uppity if any barbarian told them what words they should or shouldnt use.
Why did they think they had veto power on the english language again?
Oh ya..the "Japs" are the bad guys in the old movies..They were activly dehumansed during the war so our grandfathers would feel ok killing them, I guess it worked. The "japs" ceased to exist and have been replaced by the "jpns". The "jpns" never had anything to do with the "japs" and are not even sure the the "Japs" existed. They certainly dont want to be associated with them.
Sort of like Lexus and Toyota....change the name the silly westerners will believe anything.
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I was watching Midway on TBS not to long ago and was very surprised to hear them edit out "Jap". Personally I find that ridiculous. If its used in historical context, what's the problem? That is what they said. Besides, I don't hear the Brits, Fins, Swedes, or Poles complaining...
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The "Japs" were real. Not a myth. They were nasty vile creatures that the enlightened Japanese of our day would rather not aknowledge.. but they did exist; they still exist.
There will be "japs" as long as men remember the death marches, the murders, the torment and rape of the people and nations of Asia.
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"Jap" and "Nip" were used, and intended, as a racial slurs in the context of WWII. "Krout" was used as a racial slur in the context of WWI and WWII. "Frog" was used as a racial slur against Frenchmen in many wars that England fought against them.
"Yank" was intened as a slur by the British troops in the Revolutionary War, but we Americans took it an made it our own. That is somethiong that has not happened to the other terms.
"Brit" is a shortened term for "British" and every context I have ever seen it in seems to carry a bit of affection, thus it is not an insult.
We are not fighting WWII here. We should not use racial slurs to refer to eachother and then say, "Take and like it because our fathers and grandfathers kicked your fathers' and grandfathers' tulips in WWII!" when people say that they are offensive.
This isn't about being politically correct anymore than not calling a black person a "N****r" is about being politcally correct. This is about simple, common courtesy and respect for people in the here and now.
Political Correctness is BS in my opinion, but just because some misguided fools came up with that idiotic idea doesn't make it right for those who disagree with them to use their idiocy as an excuse to act like uncivilized boors and pigs. That is what I see you guys doing. Over-reacting to the PC crap by going too far in the other direction just to defy the PC crap pushers.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
This isn't about being politically correct anymore than not calling a black person a "N****r" is about being politcally correct. This is about simple, common courtesy and respect for people in the here and now.
Political Correctness is BS in my opinion, but just because some misguided fools came up with that idiotic idea doesn't make it right for those who disagree with them to use their idiocy as an excuse to act like uncivilized boors and pigs. That is what I see you guys doing. Over-reacting to the PC crap by going too far in the other direction just to defy the PC crap pushers.
Ding, ding, ding!
You've nailed it Karnak with one correction. Just because I choose not to do something, does not mean I can't do it. The decision still belongs to me. I (and you too) have every right to be a dick, the key here is, I (we) choose not to do it.
It's the ancient legal vs. moral/good story.
Just because something is legal, it does not necessarily follow that it is moral (being a lawyer is perfectly legal :) )
Just because something is illegal, it does not necessarily follow that it is immoral.
It is still my contitutionaly guaranteed right to insult anyone I wish in any way I wish (and the Constitution forbids the government from punishing me for that). The insulted party can react any way they want, but remember words and ideas can't be suppressed by the government, the deeds and actions can and are.
[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]
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mietla,
Absolutely. My comments in the thread that sparked this thread were not meant to say that people cannot say those things, but rather a request that they be polite.
I fully stand by the 1st ammendment.
We have the right to say almost anything, but we can choose not to.
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The reason not to use "Jap" is because... it pisses off a lot of Japanese people. If you want to have Japanese friends and not be seen as an amazinhunk by Japanese people, then don't use it in front of them. If you are an amazinhunk then have at it.
As for the swastika it is a very simple issue. There are very strict laws about showing this symbol in Germany. If you are making a product that is to be sold in Germany then you have to omit the swastika.
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:confused:
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We have freedom of speech. Not freedom of rudeness.
I grew up in the 50's. That means being raised on WW2 movies. And I Also had a few uncles that were vets of that war. Jap and kraut, where about the only way I ever heard these people referred to. I have used these terms often in my life. It is worth remembering that the rest of the world does not understand the flippant way we use racial slurs. Americans are all from somewhere else. This has led to a racial mix that few other countries in history have had to adjust to. Our casual racism is often misunderstood by people of other lands. While we all use the words, we seldom mean any real harm by them. Its a bit like calling a younger brother a dork, when you were kids. It is meaningless to you and your brother. It is worth remembering that folks in other lands wont get the sublty of this at all.
I have used the word kraut on these boards in the past. And Germans posted of my hatred at the time. The irony of this caused me to chuckle. My father was stationed in Germany in the fifties. He married a German girl. And I have a half brother, and sister, that are both half German. I love them very much. So much for my hatred for Germans. My youngest daughter has been dating a Korean boy for a couple of years. I will probably wind up with little gook grand babies :) Such is the nature of being an American.
For folks of other lands, that see this stuff. Don't take it to heart. A casual racism is a non- malicious
part of the American makeup. For my countryman. We need to remember that we are appearing boorish, and rude, when we use such words. Lets try to show a little class.
[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]
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Interesting how all these other people who aren't Japanese are speaking for them. How does anyone who isn't Japanese know how most Japanese feel? The one true Japanese person to reply merely posts :confused:
I wonder if this isn't somewhat blown out of proportion?
My feelings aren't even dented when someone calls me a "spic" because of my Spanish surname and blood. Whether used as a rude insult or just a crude abbreviation, only individuals looking for an excuse to be angry or violent respond to its use.
In a wargaming environment (I am thinking back to all of the boardgames I used to play), we always used abbreviated names with no malice intended. For example when playing "Air Force"/"Dauntless", "hand me all the Brit and Jap data cards".
Unless someone like Mitsu says otherwise, I see it as a bit of a PC overreaction to criticize someone for a topic containing "Jap planes" in our abbreviated internet world. I doubt it was intended as a slur, and doubt most people would take it as such.
Mitsu, two questions for you to clarify my understanding of reality and define just how out of touch, uneducated, and insensitive I really am:
1) How do you personally feel about the use of the term "Jap" when refering to Japanese equipment, i.e. Jap planes, Jap ships, etc. ?
2) How do you think the majority of Japanese people feel about that same term used in that same context?
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Great post Easymo. I concur most wholeheartedly.
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Streak I'm not Japanese, pure-bred redneck here. I'm just going by what I'm told by Japanese and Japanese-American friends I've gone to school with and worked with, and what I've been told "virtually" by guys in flight sims. I've had Japanese AH and WB players contact me more than once on private channels to ask a player to stop using "jap" on chat. Those experiences have formed my opinion on the matter.
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Originally posted by streakeagle:
How does anyone who isn't Japanese know how most Japanese feel?
Why start there?
Until someone with personal experience testifies in this thread, I decline to believe that there is such place as Japain with alleged "japanese" populating it, let alone the war US allegedely had with it!
I would not believe either of those allegations unless someone with first hand personal experience vouches for the truth of those facts. :)
Seriously, I know japanese people feel through having japanese friends in real live and/or discussing things on this and other international boards for the last few years. Also, reading books and newspapers helps somewhat.
miko
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Miko,
A Japanese veteran player already has...