Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kev367th on August 14, 2005, 01:05:07 AM
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I always thought the highest alt intercaption of WWII was Emmanuel Galitzas interception of a JU86P over England in a modified Spit IX at approx 43,000ft.
Just watched a prog on the History Channel, they are claiming a Spit over the Med (assume Mk V?) intercetped and shot down a JU86P at 49,500ft.
Any ideas?
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spit V at 49500ft? LOL
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Originally posted by Kev367th
I always thought the highest alt intercaption of WWII was Emmanuel Galitzas interception of a JU86P over England in a modified Spit IX at approx 43,000ft.
Just watched a prog on the History Channel, they are claiming a Spit over the Med (assume Mk V?) intercetped and shot down a JU86P at 49,500ft.
Any ideas?
Don't believe everything you see on the History Channel :)
There were a few specially modified and lightened Spitfire Vs that were used to go after the Ju86Ps. One got up to 42K on August 24, 1942 and claimed a Ju86P although German records show no loss.
Galitzine's combat report states he was at 44K
Dan/CorkyJr
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His report also indicated that he spotted AKAK approximately 8K above him. :p
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Don't believe everything you see on the History Channel :)
There were a few specially modified and lightened Spitfire Vs that were used to go after the Ju86Ps. One got up to 42K on August 24, 1942 and claimed a Ju86P although German records show no loss.
Galitzine's combat report states he was at 44K
Dan/CorkyJr
Yup, as i thought, it was Galitzine.
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Originally posted by Rolex
His report also indicated that he spotted AKAK approximately 8K above him. :p
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahah ahahaha :D
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Originally posted by Rolex
His report also indicated that he spotted AKAK approximately 8K above him. :p
LOL...PWN!
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Wonder what the Spit Mk VII could do.
After all, above 40K or so, things start boiling down to the pilot right?
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Originally posted by Angus
Wonder what the Spit Mk VII could do.
After all, above 40K or so, things start boiling down to the pilot right?
Not sure on the VII off hand, but postwar, the Spit PR19 was flown at 49K to avoid interception by the early jets that couldn't get up that high.
Service ceiling on the HFVII was 44K
Dan/CorkyJr
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Some Mk VIII's had extended wings, - how about the VII's?
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Originally posted by Angus
Some Mk VIII's had extended wings, - how about the VII's?
VIIs all had extended wings in production. During the summer of 44 some of those had regular wing tips added and were flying regular missions including ground attack as there wasn't a high alt threat.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Ok, extended wings and a Merlin 70, superior to the 61, - and the Merlin 61 Spit IX would with full combat load cruise in formation at 43K.
So, wonder and ponder where the VII would stop ;)
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This may not have been the highest but it sure is the most difficult.
Corsair Action Off Okinawa
Klingman's Fight With The Enemy
On May 10th, one of the most unique fighter interceptions of WWII took place. Captain Ken Reusser, callsign Ruby 6, was on patrol with 3 other Checkerboarders over the island of Okinawa. The following excerpt is from an article published in the May '95 edition of Leatherneck. The author is Ray Schanamann, 1st Lt, VMF-312
The pilots started their climb to altitude, prepared for another routine patrol. Instead, they received a transmission from "Handyman", the Air Defense Control Center. "Ruby 6, this is Handyman, over." "Handyman, Ruby 6, go ahead." "Ruby 6, Handyman, We have a bogey approaching on course one eight zero,angels 25 (altitude 25,000 feet). Climb to angels 25, steer 270, buster (full speed), over." "Handyman, Roger, course 270 angels 25, out."
The flight dropped their belly tanks, test fired their guns, put their props in full low pitch, and firewalled their throttles. Klingman remembered, "We could see the vapor trails as the bogey made two complete circles over the harbor." The Marines had a good idea about the plane they were pursuing. For several days that week their squadron and others took turns trying to intercept a plane that followed the same flight plan. Intelligence believed the plane was on photo reconnaissance of the ships in the harbor, for use in planning kamikaze raids. The previous intercept attempts failed because the intruder, aware of the chase planes, kept climbing as he headed for home. With his initial altitude advantage he easily outran his pursuers. This time the Marines tried to close while climbing at their best speed. Captain Reusser said, "We were turning inside him to try and join up, but we were so far below him we had little chance of reaching him. I just pulled the nose up and held the trigger down, no aim, no accuracy, just trying to loop it up there. I saw a couple of glints, but I remember I didn't think anything of it at the time. He leveled off and headed back toward Japan."
The division kept climbing and stayed on the bogey's tail even though it didn't seem possible to overhaul him. Captain Jim Cox's plane fell back until he was about a thousand feet below the others — he couldn't coax another knot of speed out of the battle-weary Corsair. Reusser ordered Cox and 1st Lt. Frank Watson to return to orbit over Point Nan while he and Klingman continued the pursuit.
Now they were at 38,000 feet, the service ceiling for the Corsair. The bogey was still about a mile ahead, and the chase continued. Because of the thin air and limited power, maneuvers had to be limited to small, careful changes in direction or altitude; otherwise a stall or spin would result with small chance of recovery. At such an altitude bailing out would have meant freezing to death. " As we got closer, Ken was firing, and I guess the bogey was firing at us. I had a few small bullet holes in the plane. My plane had no gun heaters and the guns were frozen, but I was pretty eager to get me a Jap plane. My plane was faster because it was a brand new so I went on ahead of Ken at max speed and streamlined as much as I could."
"We closed on the bogey until I was 20 or 30 feet behind him-I couldn't get any closer to him due to his prop wash. It held me back and kept me from running into him. I had to slowly climb above the airplane, and then I nosed over and ran into his tail with my prop. I only had enough extra speed to chew off some of his rudder and elevator before being blown away (from Nick's prop wash) Since he was still flying, I climbed above him for a second run. I nosed down and I pulled out too soon and only got some of his rudder and part of the top of the rear canopy. At this time I remember seeing the rear seat gunner frantically looking around and trying to operate his machine gun. I imagine at this altitude he was probably freezing to death. I realized that a third wasn't necessary, but I was even more determined so I climbed above him for my third run and chopped the right side of his elevator, and we both went into a spin. This run did the most damage to my plane, but I recovered after losing only about 1,000 feet. Ken was along side then, and we both observed the enemy plane in a spin with both wings coming off at about 15,000 feet."
Reusser had a bird's-eye view when Klingman first passes were made and related. "The Japanese gunner pounded on his machine gun to free it up, but it was frozen solid and so was mine. When Bob came down on the canopy with his prop, he tore the gun away from the mount and hit the gunner. His plane was full of bullet holes and shrapnel holes from fragments of the Nick." Klingman had his kill but they were hundreds of miles from base and his plane shook and vibrated with the stick jumping in a large circle. Close to home at about 10,000 feet Bob ran out of fuel but felt he could still reach the strip even though Ken suggested he bail. Pilots stood quietly at the upwind end of the runway. They watched the Corsair plunge silently in a steep glide — no engine roar, the prop windmilling slowly. "Don't stretch the glide: don't be short.: they said almost prayerfully. At the last possible second, Klingman raised the Corsair's nose and the plane slammed into the ground and bounced the few remaining feet onto the airstrip. Watchers gasped as they saw the planes condition. The tips of all three blades jutted outward with 6 inches missing from each end and the blades pierced by bullets; each wing contained large holes, and pieces of the Nick were in the cowling.
After extensive tests and a new propeller, the F4U Corsair Bob Klingman used in the downing of the Japanese Nick was returned to service! Bob Klingman and Ken Reusser both received the Navy Cross for their actions.
***********************************************
Bob Klingman went on to retire from the Marine Corps. He died recently and there wasn't much fanfare except from some of the old Corsair pilots still alive around Orange county.
(http://www.web-birds.com/usmc/vmf312/damage.jpg)
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Very very good !!!
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A ramming attack & then in "for a second run". HAHAHAHA
Read to the end & see that apparently there are old & bold pilots
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Originally posted by Rolex
His report also indicated that he spotted AKAK approximately 8K above him. :p
:eek: :rofl :lol :eek: :rofl :lol :rofl
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Excellent story about those Corsairs. Though I don't think they downed a Nick. Its service ceiling was way lower and it wasn't a recon plane.
I bet their real target was this:
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/dinahdm_23.jpg)
Ki-46 Dinah.
In the early stages of the war in the Pacific, the Allies were reduced to improvising vulnerable bombers and transports to the reconnaissance role. The Ki-46, in contrast, could operate with impunity, as it was faster than any fighters the Allies had in the region. Even when improved Allied fighters became available, the Ki-46 proved difficult to catch.
Ki-46 spied successfully even on CV formations and was extremerely hard catch until the end of the war, as the above account shows. Fast and could fly high. Quite possibly the best recon plane of whole WW2.
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in AH i have gotten the TA-152 up to about 68k (takes a couple hours) and overflown the HQ much to the shagrin of 163 pilots. it is quite funny cuz nobody can get at you no matter how hard they try because the 163 can only get to about 55k before it runs out of gas.
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(http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/images/mhv-asat-launch2.jpg)
The US ALMV system was tested twice in 1984, firing interceptors but not against targets. Its first and only test against a satellite was performed on 13 October, 1985, when it destroyed an aging Solwind satellite in a 555 km orbit.
:)
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Originally posted by SMIDSY
in AH i have gotten the TA-152 up to about 68k (takes a couple hours) and overflown the HQ much to the shagrin of 163 pilots. it is quite funny cuz nobody can get at you no matter how hard they try because the 163 can only get to about 55k before it runs out of gas.
you talking about AHI or AH2 cuz if ur talkin bout AH2 I call BS cuz it would run outa fuel before that and iv taking the 163 to 75k+
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Actually I believe the Malta Story, A friend of my father was an "armorer" in North Africa and he has told a story of they stripping down a Spit and leaving only 1 303 in the wing. They removed armor etc. , everything that could be pulled out came out. I do not recall what kind of german plane they were after, however it apparently had a regular schedule and flew very high. The attack he claimed was successful and the unit he was in was " mentioned in dispatches" for their effort.
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Originally posted by BMwilly
Actually I believe the Malta Story, A friend of my father was an "armorer" in North Africa and he has told a story of they stripping down a Spit and leaving only 1 303 in the wing. They removed armor etc. , everything that could be pulled out came out. I do not recall what kind of german plane they were after, however it apparently had a regular schedule and flew very high. The attack he claimed was successful and the unit he was in was " mentioned in dispatches" for their effort.
That's close. They added a 4 blade prop to the modified Spit Vs, as well as extended wing tips. The armament was a single .5 machine gun in each wing. Armor plate, radios and anything non essential was removed to save weight.
They did stop the Ju86P missions.
Dan/CorkyJr
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truekill, i did this about a month ago. in my experience in the MA 163s cant get much past 60k.
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a 152 with even 100% and a DT will not get to 65k it doesnt have fuel to get to that alt.
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Green's book on German AC of WWII talks about the first inteceptions of the high flying JU86's. They were done by Spits out of Alexandria. 3 fell in a short period and this led to a German effort to push the plane's max alt to the upper 40s. I don't remember if those saw action.
-Blogs
Originally posted by Kev367th
I always thought the highest alt intercaption of WWII was Emmanuel Galitzas interception of a JU86P over England in a modified Spit IX at approx 43,000ft.
Just watched a prog on the History Channel, they are claiming a Spit over the Med (assume Mk V?) intercetped and shot down a JU86P at 49,500ft.
Any ideas?
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Grendel,
That version of the Ki-46 is one of the most beautiful aircraft of WWII, but I'd have to say some late war PR aircraft were better. Things like the Ar234 (range might be too short) and the Mosquito PR.Mk XVI.
The Ki-46 was definately a great PR aircraft though and a thorn in our side for most of the Pacific War.
Speaking of PR aircraft, I could see them having a real purpose in ToD. Taking the shots needed for the missions to be planned and then taking before and after shots of the results. PR Spits, Mossies, F-5s, F-8s, Ki-46s. Solo flights that when you don't return nobody knows what happened. The pilots who flew those long range, lonely missions over enemy territory were a breed apart from fighter pilots or bomber pilots.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Grendel,
That version of the Ki-46 is one of the most beautiful aircraft of WWII, but I'd have to say some late war PR aircraft were better. Things like the Ar234 (range might be too short) and the Mosquito PR.Mk XVI.
The Ki-46 was definately a great PR aircraft though and a thorn in our side for most of the Pacific War.
Speaking of PR aircraft, I could see them having a real purpose in ToD. Taking the shots needed for the missions to be planned and then taking before and after shots of the results. PR Spits, Mossies, F-5s, F-8s, Ki-46s. Solo flights that when you don't return nobody knows what happened. The pilots who flew those long range, lonely missions over enemy territory were a breed apart from fighter pilots or bomber pilots.
We pulled that off in an Airwarrior Scenario. We had two guys who had the recce unit with the choice of an unarmed Spit IX standing in for an XI (They couldn't shoot back) and a PR Mossie.
They actually had a blast trying not to be found and pulled off the missions well. They had to get the post strike photos of the targets, and they were on occasion running into Germany from their base in England.
Dan/CorkyJr
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turekill. planes use less fuel when at higher alt so you only need 50% and a drop tank. at altitudes like what i fly it at fuel is no issue.
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My granddad (Burt Woods) was an Raf mechanic he was based in africa in ww2, he didnt talk about the war much at all & was a very humble man (sadly he died recently) & so ive no reason not to believe the following account. When he was based in africa he modified a single spitfire (the only one they had on thier very small base) to gain extra height (he didnt say how much height) to shoot down a high alt german recce plane(he didnt say what type). He told me it involved removing certain bolts from the spitfire (im sure he said the bolts were replaced). He didnt mention striping any machine guns just basic stuff which allowed the spitfire to reach alt & shoot down the recce plane (this i remember he was sure of).
He told me this before id heard of this anywhere else & so it all tallys up, so i think in this case the history channel is correct.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Don't believe everything you see on the History Channel :)
Dan/CorkyJr
Dont beleive ANYTHING you see on the history channel!!!
Oh, and what were Ju-86Ps?
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High altitude photo recce aircraft.
"The Ju 86P was produced in two versions, the Ju 86P-1 high-altitude bomber carrying 4 550-lb bombs or 16 110-lb bombs and the Ju 86P-2 high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft equipped with three cameras. No defensive armament was provided, since it was assumed by the Luftwaffe that the aircraft would be completely immune to interception by enemy fighters. During 1940 and 1941, numerous bombing and reconnaissance missions were flown over Britain, the Ju 86P aircraft indeed proving to be immune from interception by RAF fighters. The Ju 86P aircraft also flew some clandestine reconnaissance missions over the Soviet Union in preparation for the June 22, 1941 assault. Some Ju 86Ps were operated in the Mediterranean theater, and flew unmolested numerous times over Egypt. However, the Ju 86P eventually met its match in the form of a specially-stripped version of the Spitfire V evolved by the British to meet the high-altitude threat. The first successful interception of a Ju 86P was on August 24, 1942, when a Spitfire V caught one of these aircraft over Egypt at an altitude of 42,000 feet and forced it to crash into the Mediterranean. In response to this new threat, Luftwaffe personnel hastily fitted a remotely-controlled MG 17 machine gun fixed to fire aft from the rear fuselage. However, a couple more Ju 86P-2s were soon lost to these modified Spitfires. Since the operation of the Ju 86P over enemy territory was becoming increasingly hazardous to the health of its aircrews, the type was shortly thereafter withdrawn from operational service."
Link:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ju86.html
Pic:
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju86-1.jpg)
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Wrong picture. the -P didn't look anything like the normal Ju86.
(http://www.geocities.com/h_zoeller/ju86_a5.jpg)
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Me bad.
Extended wings also?
I found one funny pic. Will post later.
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(http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/reconnaissance/ju86p/ju86pn1.jpg)
That one?
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More:
(http://www.afrika-korps.de/forum/files/junkers_20ju-86_20p_116.jpg)
More:
(http://www.afrika-korps.de/forum/files/rs_ls_253_115.jpg)
(http://www.afrika-korps.de/forum/files/rs_ls_254_159.jpg)