Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Bodhi on August 18, 2005, 11:45:08 AM
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She Does Not Speak for Me
My son died in Iraq--and it was not in vain.
BY RONALD R. GRIFFIN
I lost a son in Iraq and Cindy Sheehan does not speak for me. I grieve with Mrs. Sheehan, for all too well I know the full measure of the agony she is forever going to endure. I honor her son for his service and sacrifice. However, I abhor all that she represents and those who would cast her as the symbol for parents of our fallen soldiers.
The fallen heroes, until now, have enjoyed virtually no individuality. They have been treated as a monolith, a mere number. Now Mrs. Sheehan, with adept public relations tactics, has succeeded in elevating herself above the rest of us. Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida declared that Mrs. Sheehan is now the symbol for all parents who have lost children in Iraq. Sorry, senator. Not for me.
Maureen Dowd of the New York Times portrays Mrs. Sheehan as a distraught mom standing heroically outside the guarded gates of the most powerful and inhumane man on earth, President Bush. Ms. Dowd is so moved by Mrs. Sheehan's plight that she bestowed upon her and all grieving parents the title of "absolute moral authority." That characterization epitomizes the arrogance and condescension of anyone who would presume to understand and speak for all of us. How can we all possess "absolute moral authority" when we hold so many different perspectives?
I don't want that title. I haven't earned that title.
Although we all walk the same sad road of sorrow and agony, we walk it as individuals with all the refreshing uniqueness of our own thoughts shaped in large measure by the life and death of our own fallen hero. Over the past few days I have reached out to other parents and loved ones of fallen heroes in an attempt to find out their reactions to all the attention Mrs. Sheehan has attracted. What emerges from those conversations is an empathy for Mrs. Sheehan's suffering but a fundamental disagreement with her politics.
Ann and Dale Hampton lost their only child, Capt. Kimberly Hampton, on Jan. 2, 2004, while she was flying her Kiowa helicopter. She was a member of the 82nd Airborne and the company commander. She had already served in Afghanistan before being deployed to Iraq. Ann Hampton wrote, "My grief sometimes seems unbearable, but I cannot add the additional baggage of anger. Mrs. Sheehan has every right to protest . . . but I cannot do that. I would be protesting the very thing that Kimberly believed in and died for."
Marine Capt. Benjamin Sammis was Stacey Sammis's husband. Ben died on April 4, 2003, while flying his Super Cobra helicopter. Listen to Stacey and she will tell you that she is just beginning to understand the enormousness of the character of soldiers who knowingly put their lives at risk to defend our country. She will tell you that one of her deepest regrets is that the world did not have the honor of experiencing for a much longer time this outstanding Marine she so deeply loved.
Speak to Joan Curtin, whose son, Cpl. Michael Curtin, was an infantryman with the 2-7th 3rd ID, and her words are passionately ambivalent. She says she has no room for bitterness. She has a life to lead and a family to nurture. She spoke of that part of her that never heals, for that is where Michael resides. She can go on, always knowing there will be that pain.
Karen Long is the mother of Spc. Zachariah Long, who died with my son Kyle on May 30, 2003. Zack and Kyle were inseparable friends as only soldiers can be, and Karen and I have become inseparable friends since their deaths. Karen's view is that what Mrs. Sheehan is doing she has every right to do, but she is dishonoring all soldiers, including Karen's son, Zack. Karen cannot comprehend why Mrs. Sheehan cannot seem to come to grips with the idea that her own son, Casey, was a soldier like Zack who had a mission to complete. Karen will tell you over and over again that Zack is not here and no one, but no one will dishonor her son.
My wife, Robin, has a different take on Mrs. Sheehan. She told me, "I don't care what she says or does. She is no more important than any other mother."
By all accounts Spc. Casey Sheehan, Mrs. Sheehan's son, was a soldier by choice and by the strength of his character. I did not have the honor of knowing him, but I have read that he attended community college for three years and then chose to join the Army. In August 2003, five months into Operation Iraqi Freedom and after three years of service, Casey Sheehan re-enlisted in the Army with the full knowledge there was a war going on, and with the high probability he would be assigned to a combat area. Mrs. Sheehan frequently speaks of her son in religious terms, even saying that she thought that some day Casey would be a priest. Like so many of the individuals who have given their lives in service to our country, Casey was a very special young man. How do you decry that which someone has chosen to do with his life? How does a mother dishonor the sacrifice of her own son?
Mrs. Sheehan has become the poster child for all the negativity surrounding the war in Iraq. In a way it heartens me to have all this attention paid to her, because that means others in her position now have the chance to be heard. Give equal time to other loved ones of fallen heroes. Feel the intensity of their love, their pride and the sorrow.
To many loved ones, there are few if any "what ifs." They, like their fallen heroes before them, live in the world as it is and not what it was or could have been. Think of the sacrifices that have brought us to this day. We as a country made a collective decision. We must now live up to our decision and not deviate until the mission is complete.
Thirty-five years ago, a president faced a similar dilemma in Vietnam. He gave in and we got "peace with honor." To this day, I am still searching for that honor. Today, those who defend our freedom every day do so as volunteers with a clear and certain purpose. Today, they have in their commander in chief someone who will not allow us to sink into self-pity. I will not allow him to. The amazing part about talking to the people left behind is that I did not want them to stop. After speaking to so many I have come away with the certainty of their conviction that in a large measure it's because of the deeds and sacrifices of their fallen heroes that this is a better and safer world we now live in.
Those who lost their lives believed in the mission. To honor their memory, and because it's right, we must believe in the mission, too.
We refuse to allow Cindy Sheehan to speak for all of us. Instead, we ask you to learn the individual stories. They are glorious. Honor their memories.
Honor their service. Never dishonor them by giving in. They never did.
Mr. Griffin is the father of Spc. Kyle Andrew Griffin, a recipient of the Army Commendation Medal, Army Meritorious Service Medal and the Bronze Star, who was killed in a truck accident on a road between Mosul and Tikrit on May 30, 2003.
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It's a pity any of them had to die.
It's a pity more have to die.
I hope there is some honour in it.
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same could be said for any fireman or police officer,
knowning the risks, it was the career they choose
the mother is embarrassing the son with her media circus actions
now if he were drafted, forced against his will to serve, it'd be different
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These Marines, Soldiers, Airmen & Sailors should all be proud of there service to our country regardless of who, what, when, where or how. As a former Marine I am Grateful daily for the blanket of protection our armed forces provide me.
I sympotise with the grieving parents/relatives for any serviceman lost in conflict. On the other hand I look at many of the Men and Women who served in Vietnam. By no way am I comparing the two conflicts however; it's hard not to.
If anyone has an issue with what our boys are accomplishing over there I ask the question; "would you rather fight them there or in your hometown"
Semper Fi:aok
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Originally posted by Eagler
the mother is embarrassing the son with her media circus actions
I don't think so. Her actions only speak of herself. Her son did what he felt he had to do and that's how I'll think of him.
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In WW1 thousands of men lost their lives just about every day. They were led by incompetant leaders and poorly equiped and trained. They lives were wasted in useless attacks that achieved nothing and served little purpose.
Today the men fighting in Iraq are led by competant generals and have the best equipment and training available. They have expensive and effective body armour and instant access to the best heath care if necessary. But as in every conflict still men will die and some in trajic circumstances.
In WW1 people did not know the extent of the horror of what was going on in the trenches and the men in the trenches did not know how bad or different the war was from any before. They accepted their fate and did their duty because they believed in the cause.
That war was won because support for the war never waivered.
With a the advent of instant access to information the success of a war has now become almost dependant on the ability to maintain support in the US public.
This is well known and understood by those fighting the US in Iraq. And there is a large lobby of people in the US who for various reasons (including supporting those the US are fighting) are against war for any reason, no matter how justified.
For the US to be able to promote democracy and fight their enemies they need to show that they can and will back up their words with actions. Once the dialog is over their needs to be a credible threat of action if necessary.
Or else North Korea and Iran will develop nuclear weapons and sell them to whoever they want to. And countries will support terrorists like Libyia did in the 80's and the Taliban did until recently.
Therefore the US must continue the fight and people like Ms Sheehan must me reconized for what they are which is pawns of the anti war lobby.
If the will to fight and stand up for a cause in always going to be not as important as loseing a life in a conflict then the free democratic way of life is doomed. For once freedom is taken from a people there is usually no way for a people to get it back without support from an outside country.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
It's a pity any of them had to die.
It's a pity more have to die.
I hope there is some honour in it.
A soldier soldiers. Regardless of the commentary of press and civilians, a soldier sodiers on.
Duty. Honor. Country. When it was my time to serve I served knowing that the press and civilians reviled my duty. While doing my duty I served to protect my fellow soldiers, obeyed the lawful orders of my superiors and left the politics to the politicians.
Regardless of the outcome portrayed by my civilian counterparts and their elected politicans, my service was honorable. I posess the document that states that clearly, in no uncertain terms.
The boys we have in uniform today serve the same nation, the same army, and fight for the same reasons all soldiers have fought... for each other, their unit, their survival. They too see only their duty, their attention to it and their follow soldiers as the only valid judges of and for their actions under fire.
The hell with the press, the wailing mothers decrying their mission, the waffling politicans and talking heads. Our soldiers have a job to do. Support them.
If you have no taste for the war, have doubts as citizens as to the polity of the war, then by all means; exercise your rights as citizens to let the government know your displeasure.
But do not dishonor our servicemen by second guessing THEIR honor. There is ALWAYS honor in a soldier doing his duty. ALWAYS.
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Thankfully, Cindy Sheehan speaks for only a small sliver of the American pie...
... those who sieze on every combat death, sacrifice, tradgedy or snafu of the war - like ants on a fish head...
... and those who don't have the common decency to at least start a new paragraph after telling us that they honor these heroes before inserting their politics and telling us that they are dupes in a war for oil, led by the greatest terrorist on earth.
Next thing you know, Cindy Sheehan will be endorsing candidates for the next election. Oh, she resonates all
right ... but I noticed that she has no support from mainstreamers.
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Hang,
I was going to answer that post as well but you did it better than I could have. The fact that someone can't see honor says more about themselves than it does for anyone else.
The only way those soldiers could have died in vain is if the people back home make the decision to turn their backs on what they died for. That is no dishonor to the soldiers, it is soley the dishonor of those who do that.
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I only have one thing to say to the far left who are supporting and manupulating this woman.
When the enemy was facism you were with us.
When the enemy was communism you were not.
Where are you now?!?!
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Originally posted by Maverick
Hang,
I was going to answer that post as well but you did it better than I could have. The fact that someone can't see honor says more about themselves than it does for anyone else.
The only way those soldiers could have died in vain is if the people back home make the decision to turn their backs on what they died for. That is no dishonor to the soldiers, it is soley the dishonor of those who do that.
In this particular case, I suspect a poor choice of words, not a lack of respect. Regardless, I was moved to respond.. and hold no ill feeling at all for the fella that penned the post I quoted.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Thankfully, Cindy Sheehan speaks for only a small sliver of the American pie...
... but I noticed that she has no support from mainstreamers.
How can you back this with facts ?
(I'm just curious and a bit vicious also :D)
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Thank you to those who serve / have served honorably! From my reply in that "other" thread (which probably was ignored):
For a "fair and balanced" view of parents who've lost children in this war, you need to see a counter-article. Here is an article about Mrs. Natalie Healy. She is the mother of Senior Chief Daniel Healy, who was killed in action in Afghanistan when the MH-47 he and fellow SEALs and 160th SOAR members was shot down.
From what I've gathered on the opinions of mil bloggers and guys who have gone for a tour and come back, it is imperative that we do not waiver at home. If you really want to see morale drop in the units that are doing the fighting, then go ahead and pull them out before the job is done. THEN it will seem like a waste of all the effort put in.
http://www.theunionleader.com/artic...l?article=59189
Mother of fallen SEAL says she still supports the war
By SCOTT BROOKS
Union Leader Staff
Merchants Automotive Group
Natalie Healy made a decision this summer after losing her son in war-torn Afghanistan.
"I can't go to those mountains and climb them and I can't shoot a gun," she said. "But I can do everything I can to make sure we stay the course, and if that means speaking out, then that's what I want to do."
Less than two months after the death of her son, Navy SEAL Senior Chief Petty Officer Daniel Healy, the Exeter mother and small business owner is following through on her word.
Natalie Healy of Exeter is shown with her son, Navy SEAL Senior Chief Petty Officer Daniel Healy, at his wedding. (COURTESY PHOTO)
Healy is making her feelings known in response to the nation's interest in a California mother who has camped outside President Bush's Texas ranch to protest the war in Iraq. Cindy Sheehan's 24-year-old son was killed in Iraq last year.
Healy said she initially sympathized with the grief-stricken mom. Now, however, as Sheehan's message continues to fill the airwaves, Healy said she fears a backlash against the war on terrorism.
"It's sort of like a tidal wave," Healy said. "And it's gaining and gaining and gaining. And I'm not sure what will stop it, to tell you the truth.
"My big concern is that the enemy will use Cindy Sheehan to their benefit. They will point to her and say, 'See? See how this American is calling the President a murderer? See how they're going to start weakening from within?'"
Healy said she was booked to speak on MSNBC's "Hardball" with Chris Matthews last night. The interview got bumped just a few hours before the show, she said.
But Healy said spreading her voice to support the war effort is her "new mission in life."
"I'm hoping, by having another mother who's lost a son speaking out loudly and strongly, that the troops will hear it and be heartened by it," she said. "Because we all know how they're always shocked when they get home and they find out what has been reported."
Several national polls show that a majority of Americans now consider the decision to invade Iraq a mistake. Healy herself said she initially had doubts about the war. She is now convinced the United States cannot leave Iraq just yet.
"The fact of the matter is, at this stage in the game, we're over there," she said. "We have to complete the mission."
Healy said she doubted Sheehan's son, Casey, would support his mother's mission.
Rather, she said, "I think my son would be happy that I was trying to remind people that we have to stay the course. We have to, without a doubt. And I know he'd be saying, 'OK, mom. Good. Good, mom.'"
Healy recognized the public's opinion of the Iraqi conflict is not the same as its opinion of the war in Afghanistan, where her son died June 28. Daniel Healy, a 36-year-old father of four, was one of 16 soldiers killed when insurgents shot down their helicopter.
But Healy said the two conflicts are part of the same war on terrorism, and it's a war the U.S. must continue to fight.
"I think fighting for freedom in Iraq and fighting for freedom in Afghanistan is one and the same," she said.
Healy is hopeful that the public will hear both sides in the debate over pulling U.S. troops from Iraq. It would be harmful, she said, if Sheehan's voice carried the day.
"I just don't want it to be the only story," Healy said. "I want the other voices to be heard so that the young men that fought with my son — that were broken-hearted from all their buddies getting killed — will know somebody else is speaking out for them. And maybe they won't be heard as much as Cindy Sheehan, but there's somebody trying, anyway."
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"now if he were drafted, forced against his will to serve, it'd be different"
Actualy I find myself agreeing there. He was a volunteer after all and a volunteer to a dangerous and difficult proffesion requiring immense courage.
Anyone who volunteers to defend their nation is brave and courageous. What a shame they are having their lives wasted in a war which far from defending their nation has actualy made our countries more dangerous places to be. Its a criminal misuse of these people's bravery and commitment.
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Skyprancer, we can deal with out your political views mucking this thread up.
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Ok no politics then but remember it was a political decision that cost these brave men their lives!
An opinion that these guys are brave but that their leaders are misusing that bravery.
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If I were a muslim insurgent (ughh) I would be seriously emboldened by Sheehan and the coverage she is generating in the american press. I would be so inspired that I would make a double batch of IEDs and try to kill twice as many american soldiers (ironically, just like her son) to increase pressure back home in Sheehans camp to further promote the unconditional withdrawl of the US military from Iraq.
By being down there at the ranch Sheehan is openly and freely practicing freedom and american soldiers will be dying as a result of it defending that very freedom for the forseeable future. Its sort of ironic, her son died so she could practice her freedom of speech and inspire more killing of young american soldiers.
Just an observation.
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You know maybe you are right Yeager. Just sad he even had to go in the first place. Maybe withdrawl now is not possible. But that means troops will have to be there for a very long time.
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Do you think before you post, Skydancer?
Or do the zillions of threads you've posted in, and later are locked, eluding your common sense?
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Yes I think, I also discuss I also form opinions as do many others on this board. Realy what is the problem here? I don't flatter myself to think its only my contribution thats getting those threads locked. Come on mate why are some opinions ok and not others?
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Its sort of ironic, her son died so she could practice her freedom of speech and inspire more killing of young american soldiers. - Yeager
Sheehan is protesting so that the troops will come home and no more will die. She's doing this because folks are dying.
Now ya wanna say that because she's doing this, it will cause (wait for it..... wait for it...) dying? Well okay...
And unlike the Vietnam war, people have wised-up and do indeed respect and honor the military. Who is saying otherwise? Honoring the soldiers and questioning the war that the soldiers are soldiering in do not have to be mutually exclusive.
In other words, those men and women are doing a hell of a job in an unfortunate situation.
See?.... That wasn't hard was it?
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and people wonder why I regard Hanoi Jane with such intense disgust.
Sky, Soldiers serve their fellow soldiers and officers, go where there told, accomplish the objectives passed down by the 'higher highers'. There is no room for politics in a foxhole. Do NOT, repeat, DO NOT obfuscate their mission by displaying any less resolve than theirs.
35 years ago I watched the government fail it's troops because it lost it's resolve. I'll not stomach a repeat.
For better or worse, our kids are there, and this job must be finished. Anything which detracts from that mission, anything that weakens the resolve of this nation to get that job done puts those kids at extreme risk by emboldening their adersaries.
Knock it off.
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I'll repeat then
"You know maybe you are right Yeager. Just sad he even had to go in the first place. Maybe withdrawl now is not possible. But that means troops will have to be there for a very long time."
You see sometimes one can change their opinion after reading something and thinking.
I was agreeing with our freind Yeager here. Maybe though I think the mission is a wrong un, to try and go back on it now would endanger those troops lives, and therefore both our nations will have to see it through, though painfull and bloody the way will be.They are there now for right or wrong and so we have to support them. That doesn't mean we cant question the reason they are there and learn from the mistake.
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Hang - lets not disregard the timing of all this.....
There's been no anti-war movement up until now. None, zero, zilch, nada.
So any lack of success cannot be pawned off on Sheehan, or the nation's "loss of will." This is not Vietnam, and this isn't happening.
The administration is leaking like a sieve and has been doing so for months. This war went unrecoverably down the crapper long before anybody knew who Sheehan was.
She is simply saying: "Enough."
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If you talk to a VN Vet you can ask them what they thought when they came home to the treatment they received. They were reviled, spat upon, callied names and assaulted, just because they served. The "people" who did that were taking out their aggression on the troops who placed their lives on the line.
Morale in the service for years after that was depressed to say the least.
To see something like this womans actions and the people who are supporting her are bringing back memories of what it was like. The disgusting protest at a soldiers funeral really pissed me off. If you have a problem with politics, keep it at a political level. Leave the troops out of the hate fest, they do not deserve that.
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That's the point - there is no hate fest.
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Very very true. I was not blaming the troops nor questioning them at all. Infact I have not done so in this thread once. More than once I have stated that they are courageous and to be admired. But the decisions taken by those at the top have been very wrong, and its the troops that are paying with their lives.
Not those leaders on holiday or enjoying life at number10!!
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Originally posted by Eagler
same could be said for any fireman or police officer,
knowning the risks, it was the career they choose
the mother is embarrassing the son with her media circus actions
now if he were drafted, forced against his will to serve, it'd be different
Well said and to the point!:aok
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This chick says it all:
......."On the bright side, Sheehan shows us what Democrats would say if they thought they were immunized from disagreement. Sheehan has called President Bush "that filth-spewer and warmonger." She says "America has been killing people on this continent since it was started" and "the killing has gone on unabated for over 200 years." She calls the U.S. government a "morally repugnant system" and says, "This country is not worth dying for." I have a feeling every time this gal opens her trap, Michael Moore gets a residuals check.
Evidently, however, there are some things worth killing for. Sheehan recently said she only seemed calm "because if I started hitting something, I wouldn't stop 'til it was dead." It's a wonder Bush won't meet with her."
COPYRIGHT 2005 ANN COULTER
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Originally posted by Skydancer
But the decisions taken by those at the top have been very wrong, and its the troops that are paying with their lives.
Supposing the troops disagreed with you...still think highly of them?
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Yes. Because someone doesn't share my opinon doesn't mean I think any less of them !
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"the mother is embarrassing the son with her media circus actions"....
Well said? Suprise suprise, but I beg to differ.
Ya see, unless you are some kind of psychic or medium, it's pretty much impossible to tell just what Casey thinks of all this.
Embarrased? How can you feel such a thing when you don't even have a pulse?
If there is an afterlife, is it so outside of the bounds of reality (now that we're there) to think that Casey is kinda saying "Well gee, all things considered, that sucked."
His mom raised an Eagle Scout, Honour Student, Marine. I dunno what all of your parenting skills are, but I'd have to rank that right up there.
He could just as easily being saying from the great beyond: "Mom - you go girl."
Who the hell knows?
Please be so kind as to point out where Sheehan tries to speak for Casey. Good luck - because she's not doing that.
She's not putting words into his mouth.
But you are....
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That doesn't mean we cant question the reason they are there and learn from the mistake.
We can and should ALWAYS question the reasons. Part of the sword having two sharp edges. I know, you know, the planet knows and those troops know the reasons for being there are highly questionable.
The mission is not. Establish a democracy. Destroy the insurgents.
Lets help 'em get THAT done by supporting the troops and the mission as it stands today. NEXT time, lets be a lil more careful about who we elect to the office of the Presidency.
And if being vocally derisive about and disgusted by that wench's protestations in some small way helps get across to the insurgents and their financiers that the resolve of this nation is and remains with our troops and their mission then it'll be my pleasure and duty to tell that broad and anybody else that'll listen in no uncertain terms just what I think of her 'message'.
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But Hang....
It's already over.
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Well said Hangtime.
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Originally posted by Nash
But Hang....
It's already over.
Nash, it ain't over till the Iraqi's get their goverment up and running and a self defense force that can maintain public saftey and national defense.
When THAT'S done, it's over. To leave now, without CLEARLY establishing THAT objective would be nothing less than a victory for the insurgents and the islamic fundemntalists that spawned them... and THATS not a tolerable result.
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Well damn, I agree with you.... but this aint gonna happen my friend.
And it aint Sheehan's fault. So lets focus here for a sec because she had nothing to do with this. She just wants out.
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Want's out?
We'll damn, she needs directions to the exit?
It's kinda like the fat chick griping about being fat.
it's easy.
Just..... put..... the.... fork...... down. Now, step away from the pork chop.... that's it... careful.... careful... good.
In this wench's case it's just as easy. Just.... shut... the.... hell... up.... and grieve..... PRIVATELY. Thank you.
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That was hard to follow, but I'll give it my best.
She doesn't need directions to the exit.
Others appearently do.
She is helpfully providing them.
There are truths and there are untruths. The truths seem to stick, for some odd reason. They strike a chord.... touch a nerve, or get under people's skin.
Sheehan's protest wouldn't be doing this very thing if there wasn't already the shared sentiment.
Leave it to the politicians to remain dumbfounded. Leave it to someone as unlikely as Sheehan to speak up and strike that chord.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Thankfully, Cindy Sheehan speaks for only a small sliver of the American pie...
... but I noticed that she has no support from mainstreamers.
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How can you back this with facts ?
(I'm just curious and a bit vicious also ) - Straffo
Hey Straffo, you French provocateur!
Prima facie evidence for my statement is the fact that no democratic leader has stepped up and publically supported the rash statements made by Cindy Sheehan. Why do you think that might be? I am suggesting that they are afraid to be associated with her for fear of voter backlash > therefore you may infer that most Americans are really, really turned off by Sheehan.
Not fat-assed Ted Kennedy
Not that duplicitous, avaricious and power hungry witch Hillary Clinton, or her philandering hubby
Not Barney Frank
Not John Kerry....
none of them.
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Let me do ya one better.
You said: "Thankfully, Cindy Sheehan speaks for only a small sliver of the American pie..."
Actual support for this war is now down into the thirties. Are you saying that ~35% is now "mainstream?"
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Horsecrap. There's 5 million college kids that think everything about the '60's' is 'cool'.
They don't give a crap about Iraq, terrorists, democracy or the troops. They just wanna 'be cool', wear tie dyed shirts, burn flags and party/protest.
And this broad is just the nutcase catylist to set that damn machine up again. Everything about this.. the media, the ****storm of debate, the sweetheartbag decisonmakers that merrily marched our troops into this..
This is not good. This woman is outta line and we're playing with fire.
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Originally posted by Nash
Hang - lets not disregard the timing of all this.....
There's been no anti-war movement up until now. None, zero, zilch, nada.
So any lack of success cannot be pawned off on Sheehan, or the nation's "loss of will." This is not Vietnam, and this isn't happening.
The administration is leaking like a sieve and has been doing so for months. This war went unrecoverably down the crapper long before anybody knew who Sheehan was.
She is simply saying: "Enough."
You are either lying to make a point or just not opening your eyes.
There have been anti war protests here in the Bay area since we invaded Iraq, if not before.
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Horsecrap. There's 5 million college kids that think everything about the '60's' is 'cool'. - Hang
You sound kinda grown uppidy...
The closest these kids know to the 60's is Woodstock 3 with Limp Biscuit et al. Trust me.... there is no tie-dye involved.
And they hate the Doors.
That "machine" isn't there to fire up.
So that dog don't hunt.
And again....
Two weeks of Sheehan has had nothing to do with the failures there.
Yer barking up the wrong tree.
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Originally posted by Nash
Let me do ya one better.
You said: "Thankfully, Cindy Sheehan speaks for only a small sliver of the American pie..."
Actual support for this war is now down into the thirties. Are you saying that ~35% is now "mainstream?"
Yer playing the same game the media is playing. It's the question and how it's asked.
Ask the question "Do you think we were lied to about the reasons for the invasion?" and the answer will likely match your percentages.
Ask the question "do you think our troops should stay untill the insurgents are defeated and/or the Iraqi Government and it's own troops can assure public saftey and the delivery of vital services?
And the overwhelming majority will answer "yes", just as you did.
You see, the media is not seperating those two very critical issues, hence the storm of debate around this wench's big mouth.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
You are either lying to make a point or just not opening your eyes.
There have been anti war protests here in the Bay area since we invaded Iraq, if not before.
GtoRA2...
Lets imagine that Bush suddenly steps out into the Rose Gar.... I mean the Ranch. And he says "That's it. We're through. We're outa there."
.... that it would have anything to do with a half dozen Berkley kids that nobody is even aware of?
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Originally posted by Nash
You sound kinda grown uppidy...
The closest these kids know to the 60's is Woodstock 3 with Limp Biscuit et al. Trust me.... there is no tie-dye involved.
And they hate the Doors.
That "machine" isn't there to fire up.
So that dog don't hunt.
And again....
Two weeks of Sheehan has had nothing to do with the failures there.
Yer barking up the wrong tree.
Disagree. Have a college age daughter. We've had this discussion. And she's well aware of where her compatriots heads are at, we talk quite a bit. The danger is VERY real, the closest any of these kids seem to get to 'real' politics is the Daily Show and they just love to champion 'causes' because it's 'kewl'. PETA, Save The Whales, 'No More War'.. hell even the haircuts and fashions from the sixties are back.
Dunno what it's like where you are at, but around here it's lookin mighty '60's' to me.
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Originally posted by Nash
That's the point - there is no hate fest.
(http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/Homepage/ShootOfficers3.gif)
Sure their isn't.
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Originally posted by Nash
GtoRA2...
Lets imagine that Bush suddenly steps out into the Rose Gar.... I mean the Ranch. And he says "That's it. We're through. We're outa there."
.... that it would have anything to do with a half dozen Berkley kids that nobody is even aware of?
far more then that.
Not as many as they claimed but thousands anyway.
Not all of them support the troops either, but you talk around that too, you always do.
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I dont see as much a difference in if he were drafted or not. If drafted you still have a duty to serve your country. If not you, who?
Yes it makes it easier to say "Well he knew the risks." As opposed to the guy who was drafted and had no choice. But when a draft comes, it means we dont have enough of the former type, and those others need to stand up and say "Aye".
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Shaky - you can't parlay that into a national hate-fest the likes of the Vietnam era, no more than I can parlay the odd Nazi flag flown by the Minutemen into national racism.
People here weren't talking about freaks. They were talking about the nation's sentiment. You think folks are disgusted by the troops on a level even touching the Vietnam era (which is the comparison they were making)? Yer dead wrong about that.
Hang... I still disagree, yet I find nothing wrong with kids making the decision for themselves, without the need for protecting them from differing points of view.
If they are adult enough to fight and die in this war, they are adult enough to hear both sides. That you would suggest that they should be denied both sides of the argument.... well... that's not a position I can get behind.
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Nope.. and that's the problem. The kids ain't getting both sides of the situation. They're getting the news from the Daily Show and their liberal college prof''s and student activists.
"the hot chick is totally into anti-war stuff.. so i'm anti-war".
There's no depth.. no other side of any coin, no experience. Just like it was 35 years ago.
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Originally posted by Yeager
If I were a muslim insurgent (ughh) I would be seriously emboldened by Sheehan and the coverage she is generating in the american press. I would be so inspired that I would make a double batch of IEDs and try to kill twice as many american soldiers (ironically, just like her son) to increase pressure back home in Sheehans camp to further promote the unconditional withdrawl of the US military from Iraq.
By being down there at the ranch Sheehan is openly and freely practicing freedom and american soldiers will be dying as a result of it defending that very freedom for the forseeable future. Its sort of ironic, her son died so she could practice her freedom of speech and inspire more killing of young american soldiers.
Just an observation.
I think that the argumnet that this women should keep her mouth shut about what she thinks and feels because it's gonna get others killed isn't really looking at the big picture.
It's not her that is creating this problem. She's just a mom of a dead son/soldier and I have no idea where the depths of her pain end and if she wants to use her one voice to scream, curse or whatever at who she feels is to blame. She has that right. Because it's one voice and her voice on its own cant be heard from Iraq.
If you guys want to lay blame on anyones feet about this turning into a rally cry for insurgents to escellate, lay it at the feet of the media that is using this one womans suffering and one voice to accomplish their own political and financial agendas. It's the medias voice that is amplifying her voice all the way to Iraq. To me, that's the overall problem.
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There's no depth.. no other side of any coin, no experience. Just like it was 35 years ago. - Hang
Not much of a suprise, though, is it?
It's not a hippy thing nor a generational thing nor even a thing to be woken up and exploited like a "machine."
It just is. And I'm pretty sure that's how it always will be.
But given that, there has been plenty and I mean plenty of pro-war propoganda floating around these last few years. It's only in the last two weeks that's there's even been some semblence of anti-war propoganda.
You wanna shut it down? You wanna make State Sanctioned Opinion the only and entire acceptable thing for the would-be soldiers, hence the entire country, to hear?
Because that's what yer asking for.
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If you guys want to lay blame on anyones feet about this turning into a rally cry for insurgents to escellate, lay it at the feet of the media that is using this one womans suffering and one voice to accomplish their own political and financial agendas. It's the medias voice that is amplifying her voice all the way to Iraq. To me, that's the overall problem.
True. Very True.
Unfortunately, the woman obviously knows how to play this game.
And for that, she shares with the media the onus of instigator for the enemy.
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Very true? A "rally cry for insurgents to escellate....?"
Try and let this sink in:
THEY HAVE ALREADY ESCALATED THIS.
They didn't need Sheehan's help. They weren't waiting for her, and they - like the rest of us - had no idea who Sheehan was when THEY WENT ABOUT ESCALATING THIS LONG BEFORE SHEEHAN EVEN SHOWED UP.
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Originally posted by Nash
Not much of a suprise, though, is it?
It's not a hippy thing nor a generational thing nor even a thing to be woken up and exploited like a "machine."
It just is. And I'm pretty sure that's how it always will be.
But given that, there has been plenty and I mean plenty of pro-war propoganda floating around these last few years. It's only in the last two weeks that's there's even been some semblence of anti-war propoganda.
You wanna shut it down? You wanna make State Sanctioned Opinion the only and entire acceptable thing for the would-be soldiers, hence the entire country, to hear?
Because that's what yer asking for.
No it ain't Nash. I want the Mom's that support their sons on the line in Iraq to get equal time. I want the Mom's like Natilie Healy doing the talking head thing on Hardball. Why was she yanked at the last minute??
I want the media to explore BOTH side of the issue, VIGOROUSLY.
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Me too Hang.
It's been far too one sided.
Equal time.
I'm down with that.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
No it ain't Nash. I want the Mom's that support their sons on the line in Iraq to get equal time. I want the Mom's like Natilie Healy doing the talking head thing on Hardball. Why was she yanked at the last minute??
I want the media to explore BOTH side of the issue, VIGOROUSLY.
Well I think because, if they did get equal time more americans might start feeling like they should support the troops and finishing the mission.
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Funny how a mere two weeks becomes lopsided.
You guys have had three years.
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We had 3 years in Vietnam before public demonstrations started.
Pull back and look at is carefully.. take in the big picture.
Scary, ain't it?
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Nope.
Just because the mood of the country back then was what it was, doesn't mean that it was wrong.
Some would have it that the citizens were at fault for the loss. Cooler heads prevail - it was never winnable.
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Disagree. Certainly winnable.
See?
;)
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Originally posted by Nash
you can't parlay that into a national hate-fest the likes of the Vietnam era,
On Memorial Day anti-war activists splashed gallons of red paint on a veterans monument in Putnam County. Wednesday they spray-painted a peace symbol on a monument honoring Walter Panas High School grads serving in Iraq. Do they expect us to believe that they oppose the war but support the troops even while painting over the names of those troops and desecrating the monument erected in their honor?
In March, four anti-war protesters vandalized an upstate Army recruiting center and poured blood on the office's American flag. That same month, anti-war protesters in White Plains demonstrated their support for the troops by asking a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom, how many kids he killed in Iraq and by calling him a Nazi and a sucker for enlisting in the military. The White Plains crew also demonstrated their undying support of the military by passing out fliers that encouraged young people not to join it. Clearly those assembled that day were troop supporters all.
from erternalvigelance.com
As I stood there in my Marine Corps Dress Blue uniform, there before me stood numerous kids running around in sloppily dressed and ill-fitted helmets and military fatigues with utter disrespect for the symbols and uniforms of the U.S. military. The walls were covered in camouflaged netting and the stage was covered with approximately twenty white, life-sized cut-out patterns in the shape of dead women and children, all of which were splattered in red-paint to depict human blood. Onstage, children were kneeling and weeping while dressed in ill-fitted Arabic headdress with white-faced masks similarly covered in red paint to depict human blood. At a podium, children were reading a monologue of how U.S. troops were killing civilians and shooting at women and children. Moreover, several grown adults were standing on stage in bright orange jump-suits, with black bags on and off their heads, some bound and tied, and some banging symbols and gongs in a crude depiction of what I believe were their efforts to depict victims of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse episode.
Within the auditorium, numerous adults appeared to have been supervising this behavior and children were literally running amok. What is going on in your classrooms and auditoriums? Who supervised this program? Who are these grown adults dressed as prisoners and performing such the attics on the stage of our public schools? Since when has it become Seattle School Board policy to take an official anti-troops position and declare returning combat veterans from Iraq such as myself as killers of innocent women and children as if this war were some sick sport. As an Iraq war veteran I am outraged by what I witnessed going on at West Seattle High School!
Maj. Terry Thomas
The claim "we support the troops but" is a sham. Its a lie. These "aintwar" groups such as ANSWER, MoveOn, and others do NOT support the troops, rather they are savvy enough to know that a repeat of the VN era stunts will get them pilloried quickly.
We should call them on it, and expose them for what they are.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Disagree. Certainly winnable.
See?
;)
Hehe.
Yeah I see. Always have.
Two sides of the coin.
With regard to Iraq, yer finally seeing, on a national level, the emergence of the other side.
I'm glad about that.
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Shaky - save it.
Because if there was anything even touching the disrespect of the troops shown to Iraq veterans as was shown to Vietnam veterans.... we would have heard about it through, and no disrespect intended, a lot of and a lot more places than from a Shaky post to the Aces High BBS.
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Originally posted by Nash
Shaky - save it.
Huh? Absolutely NOT. I will never let it even get more than a toehold if I can help it.
The loons running the antiwar show such as MoveOn and ANSWER are controlled by the same type of people who caused the debacle 35 years ago. Research a bit and see who is running these groups.
Read liberal blogs and message boards and see how the "support the troops".
Then just "save it".
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Hey Straffo, you French provocateur!
I feel transparent :D
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Originally posted by Hangtime
No it ain't Nash. I want the Mom's that support their sons on the line in Iraq to get equal time. I want the Mom's like Natilie Healy doing the talking head thing on Hardball. Why was she yanked at the last minute??
I want the media to explore BOTH side of the issue, VIGOROUSLY.
Hangtime speaks the TRUTH. The media is trying to make Sheehan a sort of household name. When they should include Healy, Sammis, Long, and the numerous others in their "stories." BOTH sides need to be heard. Otherwise, it's just propaganda. As time goes on, I trust the big networks news less and less. In school, you're told that journalists cover all sides of the story impartially. That is not the case with most of the media.
It's funny, when the Rather fallout was occurring, our local affiliate of CBS began running ads mentioning how they do their research and they do their darndest to provide fair and balanced coverage. Trying to distance themselves I guess. Sad state of mainstream, big-network journalism.
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Wow.
Two weeks of an alternative view and folks go nuts.
You say: "BOTH sides need to be heard."
I agree. But unfortunately we have only heard yours. For years.
Now hear ours.
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A mother lost her child, she has probably lost her mind. I don't think I could function anymore if I lost one of my kids, I would be lost.
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Let me do ya one better.
You said: "Thankfully, Cindy Sheehan speaks for only a small sliver of the American pie..."
Actual support for this war is now down into the thirties. Are you saying that ~35% is now "mainstream?" - Nash
Semantics, Nash, as Hangtime observed. What I'm saying is plainly stated in my post! Cindy Sheehan brays that we should pull out of Iraq now. That is utterly irresponsible. Most Americans and the even her own political party disagree with her.
Cindy Sheehan made the statement that Bush is the biggest terrorist in the world. Do YOU believe that? I don't think most Americans do. Just apply this concept to all of her rash statements. She is backed by MoveOn.org and other far left orgs that are quite out of mainstream America as well.
__________________
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I guess what I don't understand is...
Why is she just now saying all these things? Now the pres is a filth spewer and war monger and now she opposses the war and want's to bring all the troops home no matter what happens to Iraq and it's people?
Why not when her son was alive? Seems she was either afraid that he would tell her to shut up or.... she is insane with grief and not thinking clearly...
lazs
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Originally posted by Skydancer
But that means troops will have to be there for a very long time.
We have a winner!
They were meant to be there a long time when this started. Everything in the world is not instant.
Pulling out and quitting in the middle of a project is mindless, no matter what the project.
A great job has been done so far and will continue to be done.
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Do not turn this into a political battle.
Nash is always going to have his opinions that he will not change.
Others are always going to be have opposites.
This is about what one father said with regards to his son and Sheehan's son and her actions. Keep it to that only.