Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on December 15, 2001, 07:47:00 PM
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The website www.counterpunch.org, (http://www.counterpunch.org,) which was recommended to us by our favorite AH USA hating leftist traitor blur carries such fine articles.
About the videotape.
http://www.counterpunch.org/yusuf1.html (http://www.counterpunch.org/yusuf1.html)
These people simply hate the country and want to attack it in any way possible, this kind of roadkill is simply beyond all belief.
And this diddlyer lives in Massachusets just like blur does, his brother maybe?
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I stopped believing the media a long time ago anyway.
Since I dont speak arabic and have no other choice but to rely on the translation, I dunno.
And it doesnt matter what I think anyway. He is a terrorist, self proclaimed and all. Its good he's being hunted down like the animal he is. I wish it wont stop there and continues on to ALL countries with terrorist issues.
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A whole article dedicated to denial.
I suppose, when your hero turns out to be a sophomoric, nit wit, it is hard to take.
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deleted.
[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: leonid ]
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deleted.
Hmmmm did I rouse some good ole USA hatred in you leonid?
squeak
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Nope. My post had to do with the meaning of Patriotism, and how one who does not support a war can be just as patriotic as one who does. It all has to do with their reasons. If a person's actions as a citizen are governed by a belief in their country, then whatever action such a person makes should have no bearing on their status as a patriot, so long as it is done with civility and responsibility. On the other hand, people who advocate or preach principles that are not based upon the foundations from which their country was built are not patriots.
This country came into being, because of protest, and the constitution protects a citizen's right to protest. While the vote is the main source for directing the interests of this nation(or so they say ;)), the ability to protest peacably is a valuable tool made available by the constitution for all citizens to use. There are many times where protests have brought issues forward to a vote, and since the vote is, more or less, the will of the people, it would appear to be the best place to determine whether an issue of protest is valid.
As you can see, it was a tangential thread at best, which is why I deleted it. But to reply to your post, I really can't say if these people are "USA hating leftist traitors", since they seem to be much too busy having it out with the political Right. Sort of the case of not seeing the forest for the trees, really. This is something that many groups/people are guilty of these days, both Left and Right. Sometimes, it's good to come up for air, so to speak, so you can see just where you are and what relevance and impact it's all had with your society in general.
[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: leonid ]
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squeak?
I didn't see that before, GRUNHERZ. I'm sorry you're filled with so much emotion that it has clouded your sense of civility, something this country was also based upon. What a disappointment. And you are a naturalized US citizen, correct?
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i protest your protest
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Once again, (this is becoming SO common) Leonid and I agree!
Generally, those hanging out on this board are brought together by a common hobby. We have a common interest.
There's no need for a lack of civility in our discussions. If you can't make your point without insulting someone or without vulgarity you are only embarassing yourself. IMO.
Vulgarity is the first refuge of the truly unimaginative. (With a tip of my hat to Oscar Wilde.)
Smile. Life's a circle; you get what you give. What goes around, comes around. Show respect, receive respect.
Peace, love and understanding. (After we drill and fill Osama and his ilk, of course. :D)
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Geez Grun, you are much of a radical as they are.
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Got a touch of McCarthyism going around lately it seems.
Hopefully GRUNHERZ gets better soon.
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Originally posted by leonid:
squeak?
I didn't see that before, GRUNHERZ. I'm sorry you're filled with so much emotion that it has clouded your sense of civility, something this country was also based upon. What a disappointment. And you are a naturalized US citizen, correct?
You got it wrong leonid, it is his signature...
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lol fd-ski
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Wilde's a studmuffin.
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;)
It's not a direct quote.
But he did come up with some good stuff, studmuffin or no.
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To be exact, Wilde solicited sex from boys.
But he did often make alot of sense.
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You'd better cap my leftist bellybutton right now Grunherz, if that's how you feel. Never know when I might turn around and betray my country. A country I love, and feel very fortunate to live in. You can find a real traitor to slander, thank you very much.
It's ironic what this whole thing is coming to... everyone came together and showed an amazing amount of support for each other, both in the US and abroad. But give it a month or two and we come back to the same old political and social squabbling, except now the accusations are harsher still. This "unity" seems to have served nothing except to make it easier for the wannabe fascists to get away with things.
I thought the world was a different place on September 11. What a shame; I was very wrong.
[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: ispar ]
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Interesting article, by the way...
I don't know anything about the tape, really, beyond what is discussed in the article. But it's definitely... interesting, and not something that should just be discarded out of hand. Hollywood? Likely not, but a faked tape? Definitely possible. How possible, I have no idea, but it isn't inconceivable.
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Open your eyes.
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All I know is, if Wilde gives you a blow by blow account. Based on the Marquis of queensberry rules. It ain't gonna be what you thought.
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Lol, Easy!
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It's ironic what this whole thing is coming to... everyone came together and showed an amazing amount of support for each other, both in the US and abroad.
Total BS.
I tell you the little lunatics at my school who put up Osama is not a terrororist, USA is terrorist, Its USA fault, USA m,ade the first strike not Osama protest signs sure didnt "come together" with anyone except maybe Osama and other anti USA anti democracy leftist scum.
Dont tell lies to cover up the shameful deeds of the traiterous leftist trash.
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Yo Grun :)
hey, alot of folks have turned bitter upon the unfortunate of 9/11. The best thing one can do for their beliefs is to shut out and ignore the folks like this website. It will just anger you more when you get wrapped up in crap like that.
As far as folks on this board, remember, we are all raised differently, have different philosophical thoughts, different religions, some with no religion, but one thing we all have in common is we are all human. Lets try to tone down the personal attacks and start afresh. You may not like certain folks political beliefs on this board, but calling names and swearing is not the answer.
I'd really appreciate if you could just tone it down a notch, take a deep breath.. and keep the personal attacks to yourself (Unless of course, it involves Creamo, he *wants* that stuff! ;) )
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Don't let the tape denial thing bother you. Before I quit working the streets, I made case after case (DUI) using my in car camera as evidence. They still denied the charge.
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I think Grunhertz is absolutly right, left wing revolutionaries are the biggest threat to civilization the world has seen.
So we're sending an army of Redcoats over to protect you guys from them, and bring you back to the truely right way of living.
By Her Majesty's command....
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GH, what you say comes from your childhood spent in an evil communist country. Only evil communist regimes always have one point of view on everything and punish everyone who has a different opinion. So - deep inside you are ultra-left, much more to the left even from such an "imbecilic communist bastard" as me ;)
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Very good Seeker.....
Has anyone seen the hateful websites put up by the far Right wingers? They too seem to agree with Osama in many ways. "Its all the Jew's fault or a CIA plot to assist the Jews. (find your own link...I'm not helping them)
The point is, there are psychos on both sides of the spectrum, and NOTHING will change that. How long has the KKK been around? Surely we know better than to hate for no other reason than a man's color or race?
Grun, being left of center is NOT unpatriotic, and being right of center does not confirm your patriotism.
The true test of your patriotism and love for freedom is the extent to which you will go, to protect the right to speak, of someone with a view you hate.
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This issue is so complicated that I do not ever hope to truly learn any more truth about it then I know now.
The political waters seem to be unusually murky but there is much activity going on - by the people I stongly suspect having no better idea of where things really stand. Of course many people have very good idea what they are doing but their goals are not only realistically limited but most likely have nothing to do with our (american people) interests.
In situation like that one rule of thumb is still usefull - where would most of the scoundrels be right now?
Would they be the side of opposition or on the side of patriotism? What position would now better serve their interetst?
Lot of people opposing US policy are likely misguided. Or may be they are the ones who know the truth... Hell if I now right now. But I would guess that there are more honest people among them then in our "patriotic" ranks.
The articles on that site is a very educational read - if you can make your own conclusions.
miko
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Im not talking about left of center as in liberal or being a Democrat.
By "Leftist" I mean like the neo-nazi types like communist apologists, pop-socialist idiot young rich people and any of those criminials at the Seattle WTO assaults.
Leftist arent same as liberal, its the extreme extremists only.
And Boroda sure may be right about my childhood, but it makes no difference in the way I feel about Sept 11 warcrime act.
And Rip is right too, I should ignore the idiots more as it really does push me a bit and thats what those degenereates rellly want, attention. I should breathe too, and be less offensive to our community memembers except maybe blur.
Im obviously very upset about 911.
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The neo-nazi viewpoint is far right and certainly not communist sympathetic.
Just nit-picking :). Plus i despise their racism and posturing. I'd hate to see people associate these far-right groups with other more innocent groups or ideals. I really hate neo-nazis and the like. Very very much.
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Neo-Nazi was a reference to how extremist what I call, refer to, and mean by "Leftists".
They are that extreme. Not same on ideology, of course.
Im really trying hard to make the point that "Leftists" as I call them ARE NOT liberals or Democracts. They are loony dangerous extremists like the neo-nazis are.
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BTW Gavor Communism is actually far far more dangerous than Nazism and Fascism.
Fascism's and Nazism's power and lies rest in hatred agression and anger while Communism's power and its lies live in an aura of love, equality,peace and "social justice".
In fact in the end both systems do the same thing, people are opressed, a new "party" ruling class becomes a new social economic elite, and basically the country is ruined.
Nazism and Fascism are less dangerous since its harder to spread hate and anger than it is to spread childishly simple lies of peace and love. Plus the very agressiveness and open frank boastful brutality of fascism lends itself to vigorous public oppsition. Its much easier to be angry at obiviously bad guys beating old ladies only because they are jewish then it is to take the time and think why its bad to collectivise farms.
In the end communism and nazism are THE SAME, 100% THE SAME, only their public ideologies (propaganda) and delivery methods differ. Communism has a much better delivery method, it relies on positive human feelings while fascism acts on negative human feelings. Thats why communism is so much more dangerous, it spreads better.
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I'm supposed to be working so i'll use short notes.
Communism is different, far different.
Its actually easier to spread hate and anger than love and understanding. If the reverse were true then the middle east would be living in peace.
Nazism and fascism are not as transparent as you make them out to be. People like the ideals, they appeal to basic human natures. These days they dont go around beating up old people or screaming 'im a nazi, i hate jews'. They form a political party and call themselves National Action or One Nation.
Finally, I'm not fan of communism, looked good on paper but was never gonna work. I dont hate people who choose to act all 'leftish' though. They live their life, i live mine. If they're doing something stupid, like saying 'osama is innocent, USA is terrorist' i hit them upside the head and burn their propaganda crap. But i still dont hate them. I just think they're ignorant.
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Originally posted by Gavor:
I'm not fan of communism, looked good on paper ....
care to elaborate?
and then... look again. To me it looks like a "only a disaster" on paper and a true multi-generation holocaust in real life.
How many people died in as a result of Sumer/Assyrian/Babilon/Egyptian/Greek/Roman... etc. conquest? All this + the Coloseum + Crusades + Inquisition + New World Discovery etc.?
Communism killed that many each day. Remember Cambodia? 2,000,000 + in a couple of years? CCCP (or USSR) 60-70 million in 60 years? Remember China, Cuba, Vietnam...?
What is it in this "system" that you find appealing?
Obviously I'm pretty set in my views (and I don't mean to change yours), but still, I'm fascinated by folks that view it differently.
I dont hate people who choose to act all 'leftish' though. They live their life, i live mine.
You wish...
The very premise of the extreme lefties (just as extreme righties) is that YOU live your life the way THEY prescribe. It is (and has to be) a totalitarian system. Everybody plays the tune, or everything falls apart. So, they just have to make you play/sing, whatever it takes (including killing you as a example for the others).
P.S. Please don't take it as a personal attack. I'm just interested in what makes you tick.
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Ok, lemme set some points straight that may be a bit vague.
1. I dont love or even like communism. I'm very well versed in history, i've always loved history and I realise how many people Stalin had worked/put to death. I was talking the original premise by Karl Marx. Marxism if you will. On the surface when he wrote it it sounded like a good idea. It wasnt and never will be. Period.
2. Extremists on either side are to be watched, but you dont have to rabidly hate them like GH. I'm a big believer in the saying 'all evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.' I agree when you say they wont leave me to myself forever. But until they do anything, why let them know that you're watching them. When you start being so rabid about extremists yourself, well thats a worry.
3. I dont take it as a personal attack unless you attack me. Thank you for pointing out where my dialogue was a little vague.
Cheers,
G
[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Gavor ]
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Originally posted by Gavor:
I was talking the original premise by Karl Marx. Marxism if you will. On the surface when he wrote it it sounded like a good idea.
That is exactly what I'm contesting in your statement(s). I find Marx's ideas fundamentaly abhorrent, inhuman and utterly unworkable (Just as the real life [or death] has shown).
Extremists on either side are to be watched, but you dont have to rabidly hate them like GH.
true, but see, the Montana Whackos do not extort a half of my paycheck. They have all the guns they want, and yet they are not capable of doing it. Enter the libs, no guns, and yet MORE that a half of my income is gone. Just think of it. From Jan 1 till July "someting", I'm breaking my back for someone else's benefit. And I resent that with all my heart.
And yes, I can still marry whoever I want and live wherever I want, but then again hew is it different from servitude (did not want to use word "part time slavery", pretty close though)?
I'm a big believer in the saying 'all evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.'
I agree again. Just a matter of definition
To me
totalitarianism = BAD
individial freedom = good
As you said, live and let live. I don't want/expect any "goodies" (long list of gunk if you ask) from the libs, in return LIVE ME ALONE, PLEASE. I can feed my children, thank you very much.
What twisted mind had invented te "school lunch" anyway? You mean you send your son or a daughter to school hungry hoping that someone will feed your child out of pitty?
When you start being so rabid about extremists yourself, well thats a worry.
which part of my post made you feel I'm rabid?
I'm looking for a dialog not a pissing contest.
[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]
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In the end 100% THE SAME Gavor, everything else is irrelevant.
People who defend and apologize for communism, marxism etc etc are no different then then the neo-nazi fascist apologists. Well except that most college campuses arent staffed by the latter.
Both systems, EXACTLY THE SAME IN THE DESIRED END(please remember that), were and are extremly evil and bad. Nobody should excuse them.
There is nothing good about Marx who as Im sure you dont know was an extreme hypocrate as he did all his early writing and phylosophyzing while being financially supported by his (alleged) boyfriend Engels who was very wealthy because his daddy gave him a big business to make lots of money of. Marx was able to do his garbage because some rrich fool gave him money.
Dont be a Marxist apologist, plese stop that Gavor.
Marx = Evil
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Come to me, my children. Embrace my rulings.
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"By "Leftist" I mean like the neo-nazi types like communist apologists, pop-socialist idiot young rich people "
Ah, he means the Kennedys.
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Rule by santa...... I donno would we be forced to make toys or semethin?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Rule by santa...... I donno would we be forced to make toys or semethin?
Er, sexual toys, leather whips, human 'stirrups' and the such I'd expect ;)
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Lol, I say we all pitch in and buy Grunherz a rage against the machine album for christmas.
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mietla,
Sorry, i wasnt accusing you of being rabid, apologies if thats how you read it. I'm not looking for an arguement or slanging match either. I meant GH with some of his comments, a RATM album would make him an ideal gift.
I'm going to stop talking about marx and communism, I dont agree with him or what he said and I dont think he was a great man. But the fundamental ideal, regardless of the reality or your own personal prejudice against it, was ok. The people provided everything to the state and the state then supported the people. There should theoretically have been a lot of personal freedom. I see I am going to have to go back to my history books and do some russian revolution reading.
So in summary, communism bad, Gavor not support communism or marxism. Marx's ideas turned out to be unworkable and worse, they provided a perfect platform for certain people to exploit the common man.
true, but see, the Montana Whackos do not extort a half of my paycheck. They have all the guns they want, and yet they are not capable of doing it. Enter the libs, no guns, and yet MORE that a half of my income is gone. Just think of it. From Jan 1 till July "someting", I'm breaking my back for someone else's benefit. And I resent that with all my heart.
Obviously you dont like paying taxes? I'd prefer not to start a new discussion on taxes :).
totalitarianism = BAD
individial freedom = good
Agreed.
What twisted mind had invented te "school lunch" anyway? You mean you send your son or a daughter to school hungry hoping that someone will feed your child out of pitty?
Hehe. Im not sure this happens, at least, I always had my food packed by my mother. If i wanted anything extra AT school I had to pay for it.
I'm not sure i agree with the last two paragraphs, maybe i dont properly understand what you were on about. I'm fine with paying taxes and the govt taking care of things that make my life that much easier and 'free-er'. ie roads, public buildings, health insurance, whatever, whatever. When I have children, which can't be that far off, I agree that i'll provide food and shelter et al for them thank you very much. But there are certain 'goodies' I'm happy with.
Anyway, thats it for another confused jumbled post. Its hard posting from work. :)
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To me
totalitarianism = BAD
individial freedom = good
As you said, live and let live. I don't want/expect any "goodies" (long list of gunk if you ask) from the libs, in return LIVE ME ALONE, PLEASE. I can feed my children, thank you very much.
I often hear this from conservatives. IMHO though, the main-stream conservatives in this country want to protect only the civil liberties of those with the money and or power to not need protection.
The true measure of a democracy is not how well it follows the wishes of the majority, it is how well it protects the rights of the minority.
Civil liberties are for everyone, even those you may disagree with, or even hate.
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
The true measure of a democracy is not how well it follows the wishes of the majority, it is how well it protects the rights of the minority.
Civil liberties are for everyone, even those you may disagree with, or even hate.
Absolutely, but civil rights do not include the right to a job, right to welfare nor a right to a house.
Civil Rights simply mean that the government will not punish you for your views and it will not interfere with your pursuit of happiness.
They do not mean that the goverment is obligated to deliver happiness/house/job/welfare/free lunch to you.
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Actually, according to the UN Human rights list, housing and food are human rights. We, the U.S., helped come up with that list.
That isn't a right to own a house, but it is a right to shelter.
There are other, pragmatic reasons to provide these things without turning to UN resolutions. From a pragmatic reasoning point of view, we provide these things so that the masses do not live in such squalor and abject poverty compared to the well off that they start a Marxist revolution. That would be bad, but it is what happens when things get to bad for a large number of people.
I absolutely don't want a Marxist revolution.
This could be described as extortion, but it is unspoken extortion. Teddy Roosevelt was the first to see this coming and take measures to halt it. Some of the measure were trust busting and legalizing unions.
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I agree that makes sense to provide the poor with some minimum, but that does not make it a right.
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Absolutely, but civil rights do not include the right to a job, right to welfare nor a right to a house.
Correct, it means an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to a job, a house, or even protection under the law. This is not always the case in our society. I have experienced it first hand.
Noise must be made when the few are left behind or trod upon. I think making this noise is what liberals do best, and thank God they do.
<continues to wave the flag with his left hand>
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<salutes flag with a tear in the eye and hands trembling>
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lol somebody discriminated against you because you're left-handed
now, who was it? little bobby johnson from the fourth grade?
:D
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Er, sexual toys, leather whips, human 'stirrups' and the such I'd expect ;)
LOL, not in a million. You guys got santa all wrong.
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lol somebody discriminated against you because you're left-handed
now, who was it? little bobby johnson from the fourth grade?
Amazing how you would know that Grun. Yes it was little Bobby, may he rest in peace.
;)
I was actually referring to the mixed race children I have raised. As a white male in this country it is impossible to imagine how prejudice can affect someone.
Many times I saw my son, who is black, treated differently, not overtly, but enough to make you want to scream.
OTOH, I am glad he has his own place now (23 yrs old) and I don't have to listen to that rap crap anymore. :D
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"America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba, and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html)
This is for all of you unquestioning flag wavers. Whenever you give up your individual sovereignty to others they’ll gladly take it. Whenever you blindly follow the ideals of others you’re a slave.
I have a strong hunch that Pearl Harbor was a setup where American lives were sacrificed in order to draw us into a world war. I also have some suspicions on the 9-11 attacks.
For instance, did you know that a former chair of AB Brown Trust, the company that sold airline stock short just a week before 9-11, is currently the number 3 man at the CIA?
It’s enough to make one wonder who the enemy really is.
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Blur,
I support even YOUR right to free speech. No matter how (insert negative adjective of choice here) and (here) and (here) your views.
Isn't America wonderful?
<Hands blur his own flag to wave>
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
Blur,
I support even YOUR right to free speech. No matter how (insert negative adjective of choice here) and (here) and (here) your views.
Isn't America wonderful?
<Hands blur his own flag to wave>
Yes thank God we have the right to speek the truth here and call Blur the stupid freaking idiot he is. Though he is good for a laugh from time to time.
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Udie, didn’t mommy and daddy teach you that if you have nothing nice to say to other folks that you should probably keep quiet? Who knows maybe they did, perhaps it’s the alcohol.
This is my biggest problem with the internet. If we were in close physical proximately I could slap the toejam out of you then weep for the violence you made me do.
:p
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Udie, many many threads here after 9-11 remind me of Soviet times. And I have a strong feeling that some people say what they have to, not what they think :( Unfortunately - my own position on this BBS is only a matter of some people's reaction on some "wrong" questions asked by people like Blur and me... /*that was supposed to be a clever sentence ;)*/
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Tah; beg to differ. I wasn't a government major but I think it is our Republic that maintains law to protect the rights of the individual. While the democratic nature of our government does in fact follow the wishes of the majority.
Originally posted by Tah Gut:
The true measure of a democracy is not how well it follows the wishes of the majority, it is how well it protects the rights of the minority.
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Iron,
Sorry if I made that statement unclear, but I think you have completely missed my point.
By "true measure" I was speaking of the measure of respect due such a democracy.
"democracy" meaning any form of government receiving its mandate to govern by the will of the populace through a vote.
Our "democracy" is in the form of a republic, but that has nothing to do with my statement.
Replace the word "democracy" with the word "republic" or "form of government" and the general meaning is the same.
The rights of those in the minority are the concern of us all. We may all one day be in that minority.
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It must be wierd to live in blurs world, where entire buildings are destroyed so the government of the day can gain something. Or where the US invite the Japanese over to bomb their fleet just so they have an excuse to join the war.
Before you post these things, maybe you should think first about how stupid you will sound.
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Well, blur is "special".....
I wonder why he still lives in the USA if he hates it so much, hey amazinhunk I hear Cuba and Albania are beutiful this time of the year.
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Tah; admittedly I was being nit-picky and I'll agree with you so long as you'll allow me to substitute the word individual for minority.
Originally posted by Tah Gut:
Iron,
Sorry if I made that statement unclear, but I think you have completely missed my point.
By "true measure" I was speaking of the measure of respect due such a democracy.
"democracy" meaning any form of government receiving its mandate to govern by the will of the populace through a vote.
Our "democracy" is in the form of a republic, but that has nothing to do with my statement.
Replace the word "democracy" with the word "republic" or "form of government" and the general meaning is the same.
The rights of those in the minority are the concern of us all. We may all one day be in that minority.
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Go ahead, but why?
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
Go ahead, but why?
Targeting a group of people based on race for any purpose is discrimination.
I believe we should all have equal rights under the law. Lady Justice ain't blindfolded for nothing.
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Iron, We're saying the same thing, Individual is just the smallest possible minority. <S>