Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: jeb on August 20, 2005, 08:56:41 AM
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When y'all gonna add this plane to the list..?
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Did it see action in WWII? if not there is no point in asking for it
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Yes, it was used in the Pacific and European operation 1944
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Honestly, I would want it but there really is no reason to have it without night time. It would make sense to have it if we still had nightime but thats not the case.
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Reading some articles in Wings (june 2005), quoting pilots who flew the thing and did field demonstrations for active fighter units which were then using other planes, there was enough special about the bird to warrant use in the daytime too. Although designed as a night fighter, it was used in day operations as well == I remember a dramatic sequence in Ghost Soldiers when the infiltrating Rangers had a Black Widow do acrobatics and mimic strafing runs to keep Japanese prison guards looking up while the Rangers moved from cover the afternoon before their assault on Cabanatuan.
The Widow had full span double slotted flaps with spoilers for lateral control; that enabled it to do maneuvers like this one, described by test pilot John Myers:
It took about three minutes to perform and it made a lasting impression on every pilot that flew the demo with me... I utilized a very short take off roll which woudl compare with a much smaller aircraft. Then, wheels up quickly, sharp turn and back across the deck at redline 450mph. Followed by a loop and back down on the deck again (Immelman). As I came out of this maneuver, I feathered one engine on the way down to the deck, and then did two slow rolls off the deck INTO the dead engine! By this time, i was on approach, and touched down and taxied into the parking area after a very short roll...
With that kind of capability, 4xhispanos, and 4x50s -- I'd learn to fly it no matter where the sun shone!
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I want it because its my favorite plane. Enough said:D
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4 foreward 20mm, plus 4 50's in a dorsal barbette (P-61B-15 and later), plus 4 hardpoints able to hold drop tanks or up to 1600lb bombs each (yes, FOUR 1600lbs bombs) (B-10 or B-5 and later, cant remember exactly)
Contrary to popular belief, the barbette was functional in the B-15 varient and later, after some of the aerodynamic problems were fixed. It covered the entire upper hemisphere of the aircraft, front to back, and 90 degrees up, directed by a gunner in front, or the radio opperator in back. The only restrictions to the barbette's aim was the two vertical stabilizers in back and the prop discs in front. It wouldn't depress enough to create a hazard of hitting the wings or horizontal stab.
For modelling how the barbette works, methinks they could make it a turret with guns but unmanable, and make the radio opperator (back gunner) and front gunner's positions manable, have the turret director sights, but no guns. Use the 'fire all guns' control to get the barbett to shoot. Now how they might make the barbett also fire forward under pilot control? No idea.
As mentioned, these things were used in the day as ground attackers and such. Note the big bombs they can carry mentioned above just for such a role.
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Originally posted by Sp4de
I want it because its my favorite plane. Enough said:D
:aok
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my grandfather flew in one back in the war so they definately saw service.
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Its a wonderful plane and neat looking too. My first WWII aircraft model was a Black Widow. Count me in to learnin how to fly it;). -DropW
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Originally posted by Hoarach
Honestly, I would want it but there really is no reason to have it without night time. It would make sense to have it if we still had nightime but thats not the case.
Would love to see it. Hell I would love to make it my main ride.
It was occasionally used in day time.
Just as Lancs occasionally did low alt bombing runs. And probably more so then the low alt runs.
Also the majority of Lancaster runs were made at night.
so with that arguement. why not just get rid of lancs also since most of their runs were made at night?
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A26 was used in wwII, 6 foward 50s, 16 rockets, 4 k internal bomb load and u want firepower u could arm it with and additional 10 50s 2 twin pods on each wing plus 2 added to the nose about 355 mph. and pilot could lock top 50s turrent to fire foward so 18 foward firing 50s
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I think the main problem with the p61 is that it had a lot of cool features that wouldn't be modeled in the game. That would cause never ending whinning that the p61 is porked this way and porked that way.
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it would work if AH had the following features:
night time.
low dist. tags at night.
radar (increased dist. nightime tags) on radar-equipped planes
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I'd use it without radar and night time. And like was mentioned earlier, we already have a 'night plane' without night time, so why not the black widow?
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inasmuch as there are two threads with the same subject. One of them is bound to be deleted. I figure its best to move the following post here
Originally posted by ramzey
we dont have night
Poor responce.
most lanc runs were made at night.
Using your logic we shouldnt have those either
And the only reason we dont have night is because a group of people whined over and over untill they got rid of it. Because...whining works
Otherwise we would have night.
So because the only reason night was gotten rid of is because some people didnt want it we should not have an aircraft that flew at night? Its not like the MA is historically accurate to begin with. it isnt. If it were you would have a point. But since it is not.
Thats a weak arguement at best
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The ONLY problem with doing the P61 is that there are so many other planes needed for scenarios and TOD, the 61 would have no use there.:(
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I agree, there are alot of planes needed for ToD...
Having said that, I still want a P-61.
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One more aspect of the P61 that could be incoporated into the game, is that it carried it's own self-contained Radar.
If your country's HQ gets annhiliated, you should be able to up a couple of P61s and provide local AWACs service
Directing your countrymates to a target area.. calling out blips.
IFF may have to be a new arena setting to decide whether the blips would be discernable between good and bad.
Now that would add a new facet to the game..
Instead of calling out you got the goon, folks could call out they got the Widow..
Hmmm
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Originally posted by APDrone
One more aspect of the P61 that could be incoporated into the game, is that it carried it's own self-contained Radar.
If your country's HQ gets annhiliated, you should be able to up a couple of P61s and provide local AWACs service
Directing your countrymates to a target area.. calling out blips.
IFF may have to be a new arena setting to decide whether the blips would be discernable between good and bad.
Now that would add a new facet to the game..
Instead of calling out you got the goon, folks could call out they got the Widow..
Hmmm
An excellent idea!!
Only problem I could see would be the practical impossibility of blinding an enemy during a base attack -- adn frankly that's a big play balance issue, that would affect how the game process itself worked. I'd be hesitant to touch the formula now in place, that's been developed over years of experience.
Even without the radar enhancement, the Widow would be a great aircraft addition
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Originally posted by APDrone
One more aspect of the P61 that could be incoporated into the game, is that it carried it's own self-contained Radar.
If your country's HQ gets annhiliated, you should be able to up a couple of P61s and provide local AWACs service
Directing your countrymates to a target area.. calling out blips.
IFF may have to be a new arena setting to decide whether the blips would be discernable between good and bad.
Now that would add a new facet to the game..
Instead of calling out you got the goon, folks could call out they got the Widow..
Hmmm
About the closest thing to AWACS that the P-61 ever did was daytime search and rescue work. And even that was just because they needed something in daylight to calibrate their radar against.
It was far too directional to be used as a full fledged search radar, and was only really good for guiding the plane to a target. You also couldn't even shoot by the radar, gunner had to eyeball the target. (Well, the B-20 and C versions changed that, but it wasn't reliable).
So, as far as using the P-61 as an AWACS? Nope. Not unless you want an AWACS with a total radar field of view of, like, 5 or 10 degrees?
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Originally posted by Tails
About the closest thing to AWACS that the P-61 ever did was daytime search and rescue work. And even that was just because they needed something in daylight to calibrate their radar against.
It was far too directional to be used as a full fledged search radar, and was only really good for guiding the plane to a target. You also couldn't even shoot by the radar, gunner had to eyeball the target. (Well, the B-20 and C versions changed that, but it wasn't reliable).
So, as far as using the P-61 as an AWACS? Nope. Not unless you want an AWACS with a total radar field of view of, like, 5 or 10 degrees?
True.. if one would stick to a purist realism approach to the gameplay.
Since there are numerous examples where the game doesn't already.. what's the harm of another?
Originally posted by Simaril
Only problem I could see would be the practical impossibility of blinding an enemy during a base attack -- adn frankly that's a big play balance issue, that would affect how the game process itself worked. I'd be hesitant to touch the formula now in place, that's been developed over years of experience.
Yeah, but.. remember, the only people that could actually see any radar data would be the person(s) flying the P61, so any communication would be by text/audio only..
'course.. thinking about what vox transmissions would transpire.. gulp..
Widow: Eyeball here.. I see 3 bandits Grid 7,14 KP 3,7 bearing 135
Tard1: Thanks for stealing my kill Tard2
Tard2: Not my fault you can't shoot straight
Defender 1: Eyeball, please .. ( asking for repeat of coordinates )
Tard1: I had blown his wing off! He was no threat!
Defender 1: Copy Eyeball .. please..
Tard2: Tough.. you shoulda got the headshot
Tard3: Thanks for the check6 .. NOT!
Defender 1: Again
Widow: say again Defender?
Tard1: Too busy wasting ammo to help Tard2, Tard3. Didn't see him.
Tard4: @#$!#$! will somebody get this LGAY7 off of me??
naw.. I don't think it would affect the blinding very much.
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Originally posted by APDrone
True.. if one would stick to a purist realism approach to the gameplay.
Since there are numerous examples where the game doesn't already.. what's the harm of another?
Well, if it's only visable to the P-61, and it's not IFF capable... And IF the narrow search constraint for the radar is modelled, then I guess it wouldn't be a problem...
Gee-wiz info here: The P-61 did have a primitive IFF capability. The transponder squawks were processed seperately of normal returns, and were viewed on a dedicated, though not range calibrated, IFF scope. However, it seems only bombers were ever equipped with transponders back then.
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I missed this tread when I posted about a new plane. This is the plane I would love to see. It has all the pluses of a great day plane, so there is really no need to have night! Also, why not put the rear radar into the P38L? It was standard for that model.:aok :D
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Thanks for everyones input, It's nice to know I'm not the only one that would love to see this plane in the list.:aok
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
And the only reason we dont have night is because a group of people whined over and over untill they got rid of it. Because...whining works
Otherwise we would have night.
Yes, there is a vocal group that prefers not having the old pitch black evening. I doubt the whines had much to do with it though. In the end HTC probably just looked at their data and saw that a good percentage of people were logging out once the sun went down.
I don't think its any more complicated than that.
But to the topic at hand. Black Widow would be really nice to see, regardless of the entire evening debate. Along with it the Uhl would be equally nice. Lotsa Mossie meat out there for that hotrod.
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Heheheh, Mossie meat? Yes, the Uhu was.
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Jeb!!!!!! where u been bud??????
lol havent seen or heard from ya in a while
email me at maxius@bellsouth.net
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hmmmmm Americaan Zestorer
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Originally posted by Vortex
Yes, there is a vocal group that prefers not having the old pitch black evening. I doubt the whines had much to do with it though. In the end HTC probably just looked at their data and saw that a good percentage of people were logging out once the sun went down.
I don't think its any more complicated than that.
But to the topic at hand. Black Widow would be really nice to see, regardless of the entire evening debate. Along with it the Uhl would be equally nice. Lotsa Mossie meat out there for that hotrod.
Naaa I think they changed it because of the whines. Not the logging. Logging doesnt effect their bottom line. They still collect their $15. And while whining doesnt either. It does get tiresome to hear.
When they first got rid of it the reason given was "to put the whines on the other side of the fence for a while"
Most of the changes in gameplay that have been made in my time here was not from people logging off, but because relatively small but very vocal groups of people often making false claims of "most people" to try to strengthen their arguement whined incessantly over and over and over and over again until something was done about it.
The addition of night. the removal of night,Fuel porking, making it more difficult to bomb from bombers,Trees, Tree heights, and our current ENY system are all the direct result of people whining enough so that HTC made the change.
Whining works
"The squeaky wheel gets the grease" and all that sort of thing.
And we all do it in one way or another. Its just a matter of how persistent you are as to how successful you will be.
Some may say they arent whining but feel they have a legitimate gripe. But one persons gripe is another persons whine.
and even if it was because people were logging off. That is just another way of whining. "Your not gonna play my way so Im gonna stamp my feet and go home"
I doubt many people canceled their accounts because of night.
they just stomped their feet and went home LOL
But the point I was trying to make is not having the P61 because we dont have night is not even close to a legitimate arguement.
For 1 because the only reason we dont have night is because for whichever reason it is, be it people logging or whining about it.
Otherwise we would have night.
And for 2 Historical accuracy isnt valid either. For one thing there is very little "historically accurate" about the MA other then the planes were actually used in WWII. People use planes in the MA on a regualr basis in ways they were never intended and rarely if ever used in ways they get used here. That alone blows that arguement out of the water
And if that arguement is used we might as well get rid of lancasters also as the vast majority of their runs were done...at night.
Even with the divebombing heavies alot of us hate. Myself included. Its been said by HT himself that they could have been used that way which is why he doesnt want to make the change.
Well P61's could have been used in the daytime also. And in reality would have been far far FAR more likely to be used in daytime on a regular basis then divebombing B-17's and Lancasters.
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Oh no! :(
I haven't been back in here in a while but I now see the main reason Hitech will never add the 61.
It hadn't occured to me all the posts that will be generated if the 61 comes out without radar. Just look how many there are in this thread and we don't even have the plane yet.
Suave was right.
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The airborne radar on the p61 is NOT the important part of the plane as we play the game, period! ( We have enough radar as it is) It was one Kick A-- plane. Better than the Mosquito in fire power, but not in range. We don't really need the range so much, so that is not a facture (they were close, only around 500 mile difference with drop tanks). You take 4x 20mm cannon and 4x.50 cal mg in the p61 vis 2x20mm cannon,1x37 mm cannon and 1x7.92 mm mg in the mosquito. Thier speed was almost the same.
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Originally posted by Easyscor
Oh no! :(
It hadn't occured to me all the posts that will be generated if the 61 comes out without radar.
Suave was right.
Im still waiting for someone to show me the plane..or GV for that matter in the game that doesnt have radar LOL
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Im still waiting for someone to show me the plane..or GV for that matter in the game that doesnt have radar LOL
It won't matter when the whines start coming in. I can see it now.
"Ground radar has nothing to do with it, this plane carried it's own radar, that's a fact so stf..."
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Bring it! Beautiful plane!
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p-61....................
IN
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Originally posted by Blixen
p-61....................
IN
?
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yes i want it to.................in
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Now it would be nice if HTC listens to us and puts it in.