Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fastfed on August 20, 2005, 11:04:36 PM
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I understand allot of you 109 pilots are good with your monster cannons and all :)
But seriously, it seems just a couple hits to the wings and they rip in half.. Is it just so easy to hit the planes, or is the bombers ( Mostly 17's that I fly ) really weak in this game??
I play the game mainly for them.. I am a huge b17 2 fan and know it was a little or I should say ALLOT harder to shoot these guys down...
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It's the 30 mils
They like to eat big bites
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Originally posted by fastfed
I understand allot of you 109 pilots are good with your monster cannons and all :)
But seriously, it seems just a couple hits to the wings and they rip in half.. Is it just so easy to hit the planes, or is the bombers ( Mostly 17's that I fly ) really weak in this game??
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No, imop the bombers are too strong, in game
See the picture , on the right, 1 (only1) x 30mm MK108 shell damage in bomber fuselage, was tested on the ground without dinamic forces like in flight
(http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/files/damage/108vsbrit.GIF)
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Talk to 999000, he's a pretty good buff pilot.
Shoots down lots of fighters. Prolly have lots of helpfull info.
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Originally posted by ghi
No, imop the bombers are too strong, in game
See the picture , on the right, 1 (only1) x 30mm MK108 shell damage in bomber fuselage, was tested on the ground without dinamic forces like in flight
(http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/files/damage/108vsbrit.GIF) [/B]
That shot of the fuselage may be only one mk108, but I guarantee there was more then just that rounds HE explosion. More than likely, it hit an O2 bottle, or a source for a secondary explosion.
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Originally posted by ghi
No, imop the bombers are too strong, in game
See the picture , on the right, 1 (only1) x 30mm MK108 shell damage in bomber fuselage, was tested on the ground without dinamic forces like in flight
(http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/files/damage/108vsbrit.GIF)
Blen is slightly smaller than B17, yeah? Even Mosquito was able to rtb after two 30mm hits.
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So bodhi you think they left O2 bottles and fuel inside the fuselage when they did the experiments?
The Blenheim and probably spit were shot on a test range.
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Originally posted by Oleg
Blen is slightly smaller than B17, yeah? Even Mosquito was able to rtb after two 30mm hits.
Wood worked well to dissipate the force of the 30mm. IIRC it is metal fuselage and wings where the 30mm has its strongest effect.
It was most powerful when it exploded inside the small sections within the wing/fuselage structure, expanding that area and causing critical damage. Because wood was all one solid structure it had nowhere to expand to and damage was less.
That is why in the pictures above it had such a dramatic effect on the Blenheim and Spitfire rear fuselage - as they are both relatively narrow, it would likely have the same effect on the wings/tail of a B-17/24/Lanc but would not have such an effect if it hit in the fuselage as the volume would dissipate the effect to a certain extent.
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Originally posted by fastfed
I understand allot of you 109 pilots are good with your monster cannons and all :)
But seriously, it seems just a couple hits to the wings and they rip in half.. Is it just so easy to hit the planes, or is the bombers ( Mostly 17's that I fly ) really weak in this game??
I play the game mainly for them.. I am a huge b17 2 fan and know it was a little or I should say ALLOT harder to shoot these guys down...
Heck I think bombers are too strong!!! Most of the time when I see buffs coming I just ignore.... Seems I always got killed more than I killed em.
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Weirdly enough so do I - but when I look at the stats its like 24 vs 2. Still every time it happens I swear 'never again.'
Untill the next time.
Possibly has to do also with the fact that most often I manage to kill 1 buff before he gets my oil or pilot and force me to rtb. Hence high k/d ratio even though I got 'shot down' on every attempt.
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It would be easier for the 109s because they have a 30mm cannon. When I go up against buffs with my 38 its much harder and takes a lot more rounds to knock down a 17.
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Well then I am going up against serious pro's..
I shoot em down plenty, don't get me wrong.. But it seems almost everyone with a couple rounds can easily take off my wings..
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Originally posted by fastfed
I understand allot of you 109 pilots are good with your monster cannons and all :)
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Do you think the size doesn't matter?
(http://www.munavia-21.org/AMMOS/AMMOS-1665.JPG)
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That shot of the fuselage may be only one mk108, but I guarantee there was more then just that rounds HE explosion. More than likely, it hit an O2 bottle, or a source for a secondary explosion.
You would be wrong. Those test were done by the RAF on static aircraft on the ground. The 3cm was suspend centered in of the fuselage and then detonated electrically. The 3cms being recovered from downed German aircraft.
It wasn't a 'shot', nor was there a collatoral explosion.
The Mossie did recieve hits, but the Mossie is made of wood. The German mine rounds were designed to blow out stressed skin, they aren't as destructive against wood or cloth...
So much for your guarrantee...
Originally posted by ghi:
Do you think the size doesn't matter?
Size doesn't matter, its the amount PETN that matters in regards to the above tests.
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Originally posted by Oleg
Blen is slightly smaller than B17, yeah? Even Mosquito was able to rtb after two 30mm hits.
The Mosquito was, contrary to it's performance in AH, one of the more capable aircraft when it came to absorbing punishment.
(http://members.arstechnica.com/x/karnak/MossMk108Dam.jpg)
And as can be seen, the Mossie's damage was severe despite the relative resiliance of it's wooden structure.
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I wouldn say size always matter because its more about the velocity of the gun. Yea size is better in some cases with a 20mm compared to a 30mm but if its a low velocity 30mm i would fear a high velocity 20mm first.
For example the nik has a low velocity 20mm cannon so the bullets drop more and dont do the damage compared to the high velocity cannon that the british planes have. So the british hispanos would do more damage than the japanese cannons.
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After studying AARs and downed allied bombers the Germans concluded it took 10-20 20mm hits or 3-5 30mm hits to down a four-engined bomber.
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And you have too factor in some of those 262's had the Bk Mk 50.
1 Hit from that weapon and most planes were toast.
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Yea them bombers die too easy. I say they make so you hit the space key and all planes within 4k yards of your bomber, disintegrate.
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You mean perfectly stable, no wind, no turbulence, laser guided, all firing at the same plane 50 cals isn't enough? Now you want bombers to be tougher? :rolleyes:
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Wow.
:lol
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I hope this is a troll.. I mean really, you get 12 guns compared to maybe 4 on the fighter. You get 3 planes, so actually 36 guns all firing at the same point in space converging in the same place, and those things take WAY more ammo to bring down than anything in the game. IL2s in this game take 3+ 30mm hits and keep going. The heavy bombers take at least 5, if you let someone get that close to lob 5 taters in there, you be missin wit dem lazas :D
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The problem isn't that the bombers are too difficult to shoot down is that the quite a lot are using the wrong tactics to attack bombers.
Honestly, it should take any more than 3 passes to wipe out a formation in here. Bombers aren't that tough if you go about it the correct way.
ack-ack
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Honestly Howitzer is right this is a troll.
I let the fighter get too at least 600 out and then hit the fighter
in the engine and pilots compartment.From all angles.
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Don't forget what the 300mph wind would do to that sheet aluminum after the compartmentalized explosion severely disrupts it's integrity.
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IRL it is MUCH harder to hit a target, and
get killed IRL hurts more so you tend to stay at range
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Originally posted by Howitzer
I hope this is a troll.. I mean really, you get 12 guns compared to maybe 4 on the fighter. You get 3 planes, so actually 36 guns all firing at the same point in space converging in the same place, and those things take WAY more ammo to bring down than anything in the game.
All 12 guns never shoots in one direction. Usualy only half of them shoot.
Most widely used fighers has more firepower than 4x12mm.
Bomber is much larger and easier target than fighter.
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You ever flew a 109 with 30mm canon?
I can assure you its not easy hitting bombers with it... at least not for me. I manage to shoot 65 rounds past a bomber, eaven from close in a lot of times.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The problem isn't that the bombers are too difficult to shoot down is that the quite a lot are using the wrong tactics to attack bombers.
Honestly, it should take any more than 3 passes to wipe out a formation in here. Bombers aren't that tough if you go about it the correct way.
ack-ack
The problem with that is that sometimes I'm trying to stop a bomb drop... not just kill planes. And I'm not always 8k above them. In that instance I end up dead... but sometimes disrupt that bombing pass. Sometimes I just make the Bomber pilot laugh.
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I think bombers are about right as far a toughness go's. If the fighter pilot knows how to attack the bomber it will go down easy enough but they have to take the time to do it right. Most people just want to crawl up the rear of my bombers and I can start hitting them from 1k out.
In short if your having trouble with the durability of your bombers it sounds more like you need to work on your gunnery, start pinging the fighters and they tend to screw up the attack run on you more.
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Howitzer,
Only the guns that can bear in the direction the gunner is pointing and have no part of the bomber blocking their line of fire will actually fire. In addition the convergence is hard set to 500 yards, so unless the fighter is very close to 500 yards the bullets from the drone bombers will never hit, You greatly exagerate the difficulty involved for the fighters.
Hoarach,
Well, the N1K2 has mid range muzzle velocity and the Type 99 Model 2s that it and the A6M5b carry are the second hardest hitting 20mm cannon in AH, only slightly less than the Hispano Mk II/M2 20mm. The only low velocity 20mm cannon in AH are the MG/FF on the Bf109E-4, Bf110C-4b, outer guns of the Fw190A-5 and the Type 99 Model 1s on the A6M2 and those do hit substantially lighter.
Originally posted by Ted Strykker
And you have too factor in some of those 262's had the Bk Mk 50.
1 Hit from that weapon and most planes were toast.
Only one or two Me262s had the BK50 and it was an unsuccessful experiment. They only had a couple of sorties total. It is not really worth considering when looking at Me262 armament.
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Bomber MG lethality is increased (x1.5) above the same MG lethality in a fighter! So, in a three plane B17 formation with only the top six turret guns is the equivalent of 9 guns. That same 50 cal BMG in an aircraft has a reduced lethality. Unless hit in the wing root, wing tip, pilot wound/kill, or engine fire, 2600 rounds of 50 cal can go into a bomber and it still fly with no effect! I know this because I have done it! Also, unless the fighter attacks from above using a non-tracking shot he will die quickly against an experienced bomber pilot. How much more of an advantage do you want?
If this thread isn't a troll, it should be!
Regards,
Malta
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Since when are buff guns jacked up to 1.5x lethality?
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Originally posted by Schutt
You ever flew a 109 with 30mm canon?
I can assure you its not easy hitting bombers with it... at least not for me. I manage to shoot 65 rounds past a bomber, eaven from close in a lot of times.
I prefer Yak9T if i want big gun.
Sure, you need try hard to shot down bombers with 30/37mm. With 12/20mm guns that is much easier for me.
btw, real 30mm MK 108 gun's effective range was 100m approximately.
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Originally posted by Stang
Since when are buff guns jacked up to 1.5x lethality?
They aren't. That is another myth that refuses to die. Bomber guns are exactly the same as the guns(of the same type) that are on a fighter. A B-17's guns are the same as a P-51s guns and a Ki-67's guns are the same as a Ki-84's guns.
The fact that you are running head on into the bullet tends to make them a bit more lethal, but so do bullets fired from a fighter in an HO.
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Originally posted by Oleg
I prefer Yak9T if i want big gun.
Sure, you need try hard to shot down bombers with 30/37mm. With 12/20mm guns that is much easier for me.
btw, real 30mm MK 108 gun's effective range was 100m approximately.
imop,109G10 with 30mm+2x20mm is the best bomber killer(not talking about jets),
Yes,yak 9T blow them up much eassy with 37mm,but is too slow, low amo,poor climb rate , you can't catch bombers at 20k+, maybe if you have alt. G10 is fast, +best climb rate you can make passes,
I climb 1-2 k over formation, get speed and hit them from above in spiral dive, Few rounds at the point where wings are atatched to fuselage ignite the fuel tanks, extend climb and get ready for another pass .
I do bombing also, soo think like the bomber pilot,=>
if the formation is close to the tgt , let's say,CV,base....., he must be in F6 calibration, doesn't have time for gunning, unless has guner, than i take risk park my 109 behind and blast them
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Now that you mention it, I think the difference in lethality does come from going into the guns, head on. Getting pinged aft of the 9-3 o'clock position does little damage. Although, the bomber 50 cal range is still 1000+ yards. Either way, the bombers have an advantage over the attacking fighter (with the same guns) in gun lethality.
Has anyone ever downed a bomber by knocking out its horizontal or vertical stabilizer? The last time I did that was 2 or 3 years ago in AH1 when the pilot was (obviously) afk. Fighter planes, on the other hand, loose those parts with one ping. My point being, bombers are not easy to kill.
Regards,
Malta
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I try, when I have the time to setup a decent attack on bombers, shoot for the wing roots on everything, and the tail assemblies on anything that doesn't provide a good shot from above.
It's not an everyday occurence, but I have cut the tails off the b26, 24, and lancs (coalt attacks from either side). I still think the wing root provides the best chance of a kill though. I'm with Ghi on plane choice as well.
Bombers are not necessarily easy to shoot down, so much as most bomber pilots don't put themselves in an advantageous position (normally low alt, tracers on, flying through a large fight etc.).
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I remember doing a test with J_A_B and one of the things we tested was durability.
It took 17 hits from the P-38's M2 20mm cannon at short range to remove the B-17G's tail, 14 for the Lancaster's, 3 for the Mosquito's, 2 for the Bf110G-2 and, if I recall, 2 for the P-51D.
I have seen a photo of a Ju-88's tail that was shot down by one Hispano II hit from a Spitfire that jammed the elevators. The damage didn't look that severe, but it was enough.
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Remember that the Blenheim is very small and has a very light structure. I suspect that the P-47 could sustain much more 30mm hits than a Blenheim.
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Please stop trying to spread this fudd!!
HTC has repeatdly posted that buff guns are no different. Here are two threads alone
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134823&highlight=bomber (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134823&highlight=bomber)
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134769 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134769)
Here is quote from hitech
"I repeat again the buff guns are no different than any other gun of the same type. Does that make it clear enough humble. "
Originally posted by stantond
Bomber MG lethality is increased (x1.5) above the same MG lethality in a fighter! So, in a three plane B17 formation with only the top six turret guns is the equivalent of 9 guns. That same 50 cal BMG in an aircraft has a reduced lethality. Unless hit in the wing root, wing tip, pilot wound/kill, or engine fire, 2600 rounds of 50 cal can go into a bomber and it still fly with no effect! I know this because I have done it! Also, unless the fighter attacks from above using a non-tracking shot he will die quickly against an experienced bomber pilot. How much more of an advantage do you want?
If this thread isn't a troll, it should be!
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by mora
Remember that the Blenheim is very small and has a very light structure. I suspect that the P-47 could sustain much more 30mm hits than a Blenheim.
Probably not. A 30mm hit is going to down any single engined fighter that does not get extremely luck.
Due to the way that it does damage it would probably have almost exactly the same effect on a P-47 as it does on a Blenheim as they are very similar in size.
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If buff guns are no different, how could a B24 kill a manned ack with 2 pings from the gunners where P40N with its 8 .50 couldn't kill one with 2+ second burst?
Baloney.
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oh now dont start this again.
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The answer's easy. The 47 didn't hit it. The 24 did.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
If buff guns are no different, how could a B24 kill a manned ack with 2 pings from the gunners where P40N with its 8 .50 couldn't kill one with 2+ second burst?
Baloney.
Because the gunner on the B-24 was far better an aim than the pilot in the P-47 and was able to actually hit the field gun/gunner instead of just hitting around it like the P-47 did.
ack-ack
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Seems that manned ack is indeed killable with .50 where auto ack seems really hard .
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Originally posted by Karnak
Howitzer,
Only the guns that can bear in the direction the gunner is pointing and have no part of the bomber blocking their line of fire will actually fire. In addition the convergence is hard set to 500 yards, so unless the fighter is very close to 500 yards the bullets from the drone bombers will never hit, You greatly exagerate the difficulty involved for the fighters.
Ok so 2 tail guns, 2 belly guns and 2 left/right 50 cal guns on 1 bomber. So that is 18 guns across 3 bombers. And I can hit targets at 1K away with bombers. I'm not exaggerating anything here karnak. Take up a g10 with just taters and try to take down a bomber. Should take you 3 passes, barring you don't run out of ammo or become cannon fodder.
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Bombers arent easy to kill, their too hard in most cases. The only "easy" ones are the bombers with noobs at the stick and guns.
bombers have an unfair advantage in this game as all 30 guns are controlled from one point basically, thats 10-20 fifties firing on your ac in a pass vs your cannons/mgs.
I've hit buffs plenty times with 30mm's and they hardly do anything. It's far easier to knock em down with 4x50s blasting the cockpit or wingtips.
I've also get plenty of fighter kills with buffs from 1000+ range at all angles of attack. If you take a buff box out and dont come back with at least 3 fighter kills and all your a/c then your need to lead em more because thats pretty damn easy to do in this game.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
If buff guns are no different, how could a B24 kill a manned ack with 2 pings from the gunners where P40N with its 8 .50 couldn't kill one with 2+ second burst?
Baloney.
The difference is dispersion. Fighters have it...buff guns don't.
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Howitzer,
I've killed bombers with just about ever fighter in AH. Their guns are weak if you attack from above and to the side and come in fast. Most fighter pilots attack right up the 6 of the bomber and then die whining. You also ignored the fact that due to convergence being at 500 yard, not the target's distance, the guns on the drones are all but useless.
Originally posted by NoBaddy
The difference is dispersion. Fighters have it...buff guns don't.
Buff guns do have dispersion. They don't have their historical dispersion, but they do have the normal dispersion for their weapon type.
I don't know how so many myths stick around after HiTech has popped them repeatedly.
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Originally posted by FalconSix
After studying AARs and downed allied bombers the Germans concluded it took 10-20 20mm hits or 3-5 30mm hits to down a four-engined bomber.
this statement is correct for 30mm its only 3-5 hits and if your a pro at it it only take 3 hits if you are having problems killing them then you need to goto the TA and practice shooting down 109s out of thier dives thats what i had to do
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I also attack from a high 3 or 9 oclock position and buffs suck ammo like crazy. I'm not ignoring anything, those drone guns are anything but useless.
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here here howi you can switch from buff to buff to get a better aim on your nme when i fly in to an nme base with my buffs i take out between 6-7 planes before they get me so its just a matter of practice
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Originally posted by Karnak
I don't know how so many myths stick around after HiTech has popped them repeatedly.
Well, you will have to ask HT about this 'myth', since he is the person that told me this.
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Probably the biggest reason that buffs are easy kills, is that most interceptors are highly determined, and the fear of being shot down will not deterr them in their attempt to shoot a buff down.
I've seen all sorts of pilots, the good and bad. The good pilots shoot down buffs easily. The bad pilots have it more tough, but still they shoot down buffs anyway.
They don't care if they are bleeding, radiator busted, oil splattered, flap torn, elevator nuked, aileron snipped, etc etc.. as long as the buff is ahead, dead 6 or not, in most cases they will follow it and shoot at it until the ammo is all spent.
2~3 of such guys around and most every buff formations is practically toast. They jump at it like moth to a flame, guns blazing.
However, if one is trying to actually stay alive, and shoot down buffs at the same time, it's actually not very easy.
It's easy if you already have 5~6k alt over him, but in many cases buffs are already within 10 mile range of its target, less than a minute away from dropping point when they are spotted, usually by people who are flying lower than them.
In such case, you don't have enough time to grab altitude as leisurely as you please(unless you don't care whether he busts all your FHs or not). You have to catch up to him, and start high-risk attacks.. swerving and ducking a lot, weaving through gunfire, popping a shot here and there, all the while trying to shoot him down before he makes the drop.
Bur if you don't care about being damaged, you just approach his six, go straight with guns blazing. The chances are the buff guns will knock you dead, but you'll also probably down one buff. 2~3 same type of guys nearby, and the buffs are practically dead.
ps) ofcourse, this can alternately translate into the fact that most buffs are usually flying pitifully low. In the MA, a buff comes in 18k+ and usually he'll be going home unscathed.
A buff's best pal is alt. His best chance of success is to not meet interceptors at all. Flying at an alt where you can expect to meet interceptors, and then complaining that the buffs are too easy to be shot down in presence of them, is basically nonsense.
Interceptors are SUPPOSED to shoot buffs down. That's why buffs flew in numbers, and with escorts.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Well, you will have to ask HT about this 'myth', since he is the person that told me this.
Both Pyro and HT told me that buff guns have 'dispersion'. I posted images of from the book "Gunner" ISBN 1-55046-332-2.
These were images from ground tests of a B-17 and B-24. I no longer have the images but here's the data:
B-17 12 rounds to 600yds:
ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils (yes that's 45 feet)
For the B-24 it was:
ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils
I pointed out that AH bomber gunner dispersion didn't match the data above. I even checked off line using .target. I found that all gun positions had the same dispersion. But 'dispersion' none the less.
As Karnak pointed out:
Buff guns do have dispersion. They don't have their historical dispersion, but they do have the normal dispersion for their weapon type.
What HT has said about bomber guns is that don't all converge at one point. You can test this using the .target command. Take the side guns on the B-17, if your target is 300 yards 6 o'clock the side gunners cant converge on that point. The stream will run parallel heading out behind the bomber. It to will have 'dispersion'.
What makes gunning a bomber easy is the fact that the gun positions are a nice stable platform. There is no gun shake, recoil or vibration etc...
What makes a bomber gunner more deadly at longer ranges from 6 o'clock is the fact you are flying into the bullet stream.
Any way there most certainly is 'dispersion' with the bomber gun positions.
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Originally posted by fastfed
I understand allot of you 109 pilots are good with your monster cannons and all :)
But seriously, it seems just a couple hits to the wings and they rip in half.. Is it just so easy to hit the planes, or is the bombers ( Mostly 17's that I fly ) really weak in this game??
Some complain the bombers are too strong and it takes a lot of hits from the 30 mils to do damage to one. Some bombers complain that just a couple hits and they’re falling. I think it’s both and I think this is appropriate. If you spray a bomber with the 30’s, not aiming at or hitting any one particular spot, you’re not going to do critical damage a lot of the time. If you line up for a proper run and aim at one of the critical areas, that bomber is going down and there is no question about it.
I fly bombers and this seems to be a fair balance to me even though I really hate facing a fighter pilot who knows what he/she is doing. They’ll take apart my planes and I’ll be lucky to give them even minor damage. On the other hand if a guy sits there on my six saying, “please shoot me, I’m that silly”, I’ll oblige him.
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I posted this animation on another thread already but it's a fine reply to your comment..
8 hits directly on elevator, 2 hits to front vertical stab all from a high speed pass in a 262.
Buff never lost a single part but pinged me enough to force rtb.
(http://users.kymp.net/p404508a/262.gif)
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Well this film actually makes my point. I’m not sure what damage you did to the buff. It seems like there should have been at least some. It looks like you’re hitting the fuselage forward of the stabilizers. From what I was seeing you might have hit a bit on the forward edge of the horizontal stab and I didn’t see one sprite on the vertical stab. In any case you’re not hitting at all close to any of the critical areas of the bomber. I’m not sure if you were trying to saw his tail off or seriously screw up his stabilizers. In either case it would take a lot more hits from that angle to do it.
Additionally, you got raked by his guns because of how you came in. It’s not the worst you could have chosen, but far from the ideal. Actually, I’m surprised he didn’t down you. If you line up for a proper run, you won’t get damaged unless you run into somebody that has a lot of luck or is just unbelievably good. If you hit a critical area with those big spud guns, you will down the bomber. I’ve done it with a Mustang and if the .50’s can do it, you know the 30’s can.
Ack Ack wrote a very telling post on this subject. Of course he used the P38. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of him using anything else save by rumor. He explained how to make the run at bombers and stated it worked every time. I’m sure it did. However, he only described one of the critical areas of the bombers. There are more. I’m sure he knows about those as well. His approach line is the one that I really hate to see a fighter taking with me when I’m flying buffs.
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Thanks Majwoody for the kind words
I agree with most in here and have noticed fighterpilots taking much better attack angles on the buffs lately...a decent fighter pilot in the right plane is my worse nightmare!
Also I don't have a problem with the buff guns ..its the fact that we don't get a box of donuts on our runs anymore!..guess everyone cutting back!
999000 and good hunting!
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That amount of concentrated 30mm hits should have ripped the whole tailsection off the B17 or at least sever the control cables --> they're made too tough.
AFAIK the B17 didn't have a 20mm armour plating in the fuselage.