Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Udie on December 17, 2001, 04:07:00 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2001/12/14/FFX058CU6VC.html (http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2001/12/14/FFX058CU6VC.html)
What a joke! I hope they don't try and bring this toejam on us for real. SSN- wasn't supposed to be a national ID, it is... I wonder what part of the words "right to privacy" these buracratic bellybutton holes don't understand.
Anybody ever try to NOT give your SSN to somebody that asks, like a doctor. Isn't it true that the only people you "have" to give it too is the governmtn/IRS? I've had some brutal arguments (and won) with other people/companies trying to get the number. I already have 2 numbers, I don't need a third, in reality I don't even need the 1 but it is forced upon me with out any regard to my will or sence of freedom :(
That's why I hate government in most forms.
Well I'd better stop before I really get going.......
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i refused to give ss#'s when registering my kids for school. they said they couldn't register them without them because the schools reg. # is your ss#. after i threatened to goto court it was all worked out. my oldests school id # is 000-00-0001,
the midle one is 000-00-0002 and so on. nobody can make you give out the # (of course you can't claim your kids as deductions if you don't give their # to the irs) you just have to explain to these companys that not everything has to fit in their forms
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Calm down Francis. I have my SSN, fingerprints, dental X-rays, and DNA all on file. Does that make me any less free? No. If you obey the law and don't do anything stupid you have nothing to be paranoid about.
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What's an SSN when it's at home?
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Easy on the acid man. Else next you'll be smashing your TV for looking at you all the time.
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Calm down Francis. I have my SSN, fingerprints, dental X-rays, and DNA all on file. Does that make me any less free? No. If you obey the law and don't do anything stupid you have nothing to be paranoid about.
along the same logic as it's ok for us to kick your door in and search your house, you got nothing to hide right.
and we're gonna put these camera's on you all the time too, you aint gonna do anything illegal are you.
gov'ts change, power turns over to other groups and you never know what these new groups will do with stockpiles of info.
Dr. johny fever WKRP -"when their out to get you, paranoid is just good think'n"
[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: capt. apathy ]
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Thank god for living in Australia ;)
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There will be a lot of new faces in Washington, if they even bring this crap up.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy:
along the same logic as it's ok for us to kick your door in and search your house, you got nothing to hide right.
and we're gonna put these camera's on you all the time too, you aint gonna do anything illegal are you.
Huh? What does having your fingerprints on file have to do with kicking my door in? That's stretching an analogy a bit far. Fatty's right (shudder)...stop sniffing lacquer thinner before it's too late. Unless you plan on illegally immigrating to Belgium, I think you'll be ok.
psst...the government can already track you just fine.
That's not the only idea that is gaining momentum. http://www.msnbc.com/news/673869.asp (http://www.msnbc.com/news/673869.asp)
[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: Raubvogel ]
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If people are law abiding citizens with no prior record, why should our tax money pay the goverment to take our fingerprint/dna information and keep it on file?
The U.S. goverment has my fingerprints and dna because I am ex-military, but for the life of me I don't know why they need it. In case I commit a crime later or die in a catatrophe that complicates identification? If the goverment played it safe and locked me up in a rubber room, they could prevent both from happening.
Of course giving fingerprints and dna doesn't really hurt me, but like banning guns, it is a very important symbol of the kind of government I live under and represents the kind of control and oppression that Communists imposed on every country they seized. Beyond the elements needed to ensure civil rights, fair trade, and national security from foreign threats, I believe less goverment is always better.
Of course Big Brother just wants to make sure we are living happy, healthy, productive lives. Everything our government does is soley for our benefit. They would never have an agenda which superceded our best interest or infringed upon our rights, privacy, or dignity.
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Now if you want to oppose it on a fiscal, waste of resources reasoning, I'm inclined to support that argument.
But either a streamlining of the driver's license/state id system or expansion of the passport system are not the same as starting an id system from scratch. They should already have your fingerprints at Texas DOT anyway Udie, for that matter.
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Guns are pretty much banned in Australia, and i dont see us becoming communists in the near future. I'd give the government my fingerprints and DNA without another thought. I really dont think they will be using them to track me.
Why is it that this works fine here but everyone in the US is terrified of having their guns taken away or their fingerprints taken?
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Gavor,
It's because we are a free society based on the rights of the individual as codified in the Constitution of the US. many other governments (including some allegedly free ones) are based on the power resting in the government not in the individual. Typically once a right is removed from an individual it doesn't get returned.
Now as to this situation thjat started the thread. Euro's are fairly used to being in a regimented society as there isn't much distance they can go without crossing an international border. That means they have to have some kind of identity paper, usually a passport. A passport is not an uncommon thing to have in Europe or Britain. Here in the US it is very rare. Why? Because we don't need them to travel for over a thousand miles and go from one end of our continent to the other. we don't have to "ask" permission to travel. If you think a passport is not asking permission, try traveling around Europe without one. BTW it is required for Euro's traveling to the US so we get a little of it here.
I am not surprised that a European politician is postulating the universal ID card. BTW Gavor, since it would be a UNIVERSAL ID card it would apply to you in Austrailia. The best example of the government looking over the shoulder of it's subjects would be Britain right now. I am referring to the massive use of CCTV in major urban areas and sporting events. It actually gets a bit of air time in the US as footage from it is used in some "real crime" documentaries broadcast on The Learning Channel. It gives me the shakes to think that it is considered OK to film citizens without thier consent, knowledge and absent any criminal activity on their part. I hope it NEVER comes here.
(http://www.13thtas.com/mav13sig.jpg)
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Fine, i dont have a passport as i too can travel thousands of km's without requiring one. If they came out with this Universal card, thats ok by me. Most people leave enough traces of what they do, where and when through credit cards and the like. I havent heard much about this universal card but from what I gather it sounds quite acceptable. If theres one Universal ID for everyone, cool. Sure makes life easy at places that require it, just hand over the card and viola. I dont care if this means the all powerful government can track me. If i dont hijack one of their planes or steal some Armani suits then I have nothing to fear.
What I dont understand if this irrational fear so many US citizens have of being identified or being tracked or having their 'rights' taken away. Our society is based on the freedom of each person in a similar way to the US society. So how come when guns were banned only a minority made a fuss? And how come they went quiet real quick? I'd say they found out that you dont need a gun to be an individual.
Lastly, the issue with the cameras. I think we have similar situations here in my home town. So what? Its a tiny bit unnerving for about 1 minute then I realised that noone could just run out and attack me without being caught on camera. Know what? I havent been attacked yet. And if i dont go looking for these cameras and I dont kick, stab, punch, steal, shoot, vandalise etc etc I probably wont even know the cameras are there.
So explain to me whats so scary about these cards and cameras? I've never once in my lifetime felt stifled or infringed upon, and i'm no goody two-shoes either.
G
[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: Gavor ]
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What I don't understand if this irrational fear so many US citizens have of being identified or being tracked or having their 'rights' taken away"
First of all these are rights, not privileges. Big difference. Secondly we are decedent from people that would routinely trade security for personal freedom. Its in our blood. We are born with it.
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First of all these are rights, not privileges.[/QB]
To be slightly confusing, I think it is a little of both. I believe that it's the right of every man to be free(women included there). But its a bit of a privilege as well. If you're bad you should be caught and punished and your privileges taken away.
I understand that you're born to this way of thinking and that nothing i say will change your mind, its just a bit different here. Bit more laid back. Bit more...'who gives a *&#&'. :). I've had enough arguing now, unless you have a good point that I may have missed.
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No. They are rights, guaranteed Americans under our constitution. Not negotiable.
Why do you think we get so touchy when someone messes with us? :)
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theres no such thing as freedom.
what governments give is liberty.
liberty is the licensing of freedom violate the license the government will revoke it.
some nations have liberal license requirements other much more stringent.
that said its up to the people to give their consent to any government that would impose any such license requirements.
This is true under ameritocracy or facism or communisn or monarchy.
All governments rule by consent whether that consent is given through the ballet box or at the end of a gun or through submission.
Even an "oppressed" people give their consent to oppression by not resisting it.
The fact is no matter how tough you make the law if no one follows it is useless.
I know a few folks who distrust this government so much that they have had kids with midwives and "home scool" them and belong to "medical collectives". They have never paid taxes or had a ssn or DL. They have more guns then I have socks. They barter everything mostly labor to get what they need.
Nothing this government could do short of killing umm will change that.
If dont wanna turn over your dna finger prints etc then dont. What are they gonna do kill ya?
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<makes crazy motion>
i guess there are probably people like that here too. we just dont have a constitution to say its ok.
why cant everyone just drink beer and be friends :)
thanks for the interesting discussion.
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When our Marines attacked the island of Terawa (spelling) in WW2. The Japanese were determined to fight to the last man. They very nearly did. They lost 5000 men. Only a handful were wounded so badly that they had no choice but capture. They asked one of these men if the Japanese ever got discouraged during the battle. He said. "Only when we saw that the dieing Marines kept crawling towards us".
We are not laid back when it comes to this piece of paper. We take it VERY seriously.
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There is such a thing as freedom. Every day when I wake up I am free to take any course of action I want to (as is each person throughout the world). Of course there are some paths which have what I would consider unacceptable consequences. In some countries, most paths other than blind obedience have unacceptable consequences. To say the government licenses that freedom is poppycock. They can only control the consequences for acting freely.
The difference between a free country and an oppressed one is the willingness of the majority of its population to fight to the death to protect their freedom. If my government ever crosses the boundaries set by my own conscience which are generally coincident with the U.S. Constitution, then I will do as my forefathers and resist my government. Governments in general prefer that their citizens not be armed principally for that reason. Communist countries did not ban shotguns and hunting rifles to protect animals or prevent crime, they did it to protect their power. A handful of people with rifles and ammunition can do a lot more damage than several thousand people with pitchforks. Even against a government that has tanks and aircraft. If someone doesn't feel the need to own a gun, fine don't buy one. But why should I give up my right to bear arms because of your beliefs?
The number of people who feel as I do is steadily shrinking. The right to bear arms will probably be superceded in the name of protecting us from ourselves. I will react to any ban on my firearms as if I lost freedom of speech since they are both cornerstones of the Constitution I swore to defend with my life.
What did the people of countries who gave up their right to bear arms lose? One more legitimate free choice they used to be able to make without being penalized by the government. If you don't mind your government making all the major decisions of your life for you, that is your choice. It is not mine.
As for cameras monitoring people continously looking for criminals: we have them hear in Tampa. The city spent millions of dollars installing this system. After nearly a full year of operation, they have not caught one criminal with it. What a waste of resources.
The idea of the government watching your every move used to be considered a crime, now everyone just shrugs it off. It is funny how attitudes change with time and technology.
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I guess that after a decade or so in the military I don't see things the same as the average American. My movements, etc are already tracked. I am not free to live where I want or work at whatever job I want or go where I want when I want. I believe in freedom as much or more than the next guy, but there is more to freedom than being able to keep assault weapons in your backyard bunker. Technology is coming, like it or not. The world is getting smaller and smaller everyday. We need to do what we have to to protect our country and population. America is about opportunity and equality, not guns. Just my 2 cents.
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1-70-08-75-115-076
now I'm scared :D
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Your SS# wasn't intended to be used as a form of ID, but that's what it's become. If you wanna spend the time fighting it every time you're asked to supply it more power to you. As far as I'm concerned tho', I give it out all the time...too much of a hassle not to.
Also, I fail to see how taking guns away from legal citizens makes them safer. You will never totally eliminate guns in the US, even if you take them from law abiding citizens.
SOB
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When I first got my driver's license in Washington, DC, they used my SSN as my driver license ID#. Made it easy to remember to give to the cops if I didn't have my license actually on me. ;-)
Since my fingerprints are already on a file, somewhere, someplace, it matters not to me if they take my fingerprints....
but what good does DNA do?
You can't just leave DNA lying around, can you? It benefits only the FBI investigating a very specific group of cases, in which the perpetrators constitute less than 10% of the American people.
So, why do they need my DNA?
EDIT: and that whole deal with guns and gun control, you would think that making guns illegal and not allowing anyone to sell them would make them disappear and crimes would drop significantly..... of course you would think the same thing about drugs too, and we all know that is just some false assumptions.
-SW
[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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I think you sum up my point nicely Raubvogel.
You can't just leave DNA lying around, can you?
Er, of course you can. If a piece of your skin or a hair falls on the ground you just left your DNA behind and you can be nailed with it.
and that whole deal with guns and gun control, you would think that making guns illegal and not allowing anyone to sell them would make them disappear and crimes would drop significantly..... of course you would think the same thing about drugs too, and we all know that is just some false assumptions.
Well, guns are still sold here but you have to have a very good reason to have one and do a proper course(over several weeks) to get a license. So for all intents and purposes they are banned from the everyday man. In regards to drugs, a lot of heroin(Australias biggest problem) has been siezed lately and theres a big shortage for users. So i'd say that policy works ok. Of course, now they all use speed and ecstasy more :).
G