Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: ghostdancer on August 27, 2005, 10:47:03 AM
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Gentlemen,
I have gone through the logs, created my excel spread sheet for scoring and have the results. However, I still have to go through the logs to make sure no illegal second lives on the part of the Axis.
Also the Allies bomb several of the towns at Axis bases (A11 & A44). There are no points reported for this since the objectives clearly stated that the towns at the bases were not valid targets. No penalty for this either.
So until then this is the preliminary score.
2888 = AXIS
2694 = ALLIES
The point difference is 194 .. basically almost a very minor victory goes to the Axis. The Axis forces hit all of the allied bases and facilities assigned to them however, as you will see they only did moderate to heavy damage to these bases. The allies basically wiped out their targets on Sardinia. However, they did barely any damage to 3 out of 4 bases on Sicily (can you guess the Allied targets for frame 2?).
What made the difference in this frame .. giving the Axis a very slight victory was the massive B24J losses the Allies suffered (48 B24Js shot down). While the axis could not stop the B24Js they mauled them severely.
Specific breakdowns below.
AXIS
AIR KILLS
30 pts - 3 P40Es
140 pts - 14 P38Gs
10 pts - 1 P38J
60 pts - 6 Spitfire IXs
30 pts - 2 Mosquito VIs
1200 pts - 48 B24Js
- 20 pts - 1 JU88
TOTAL = 1450
Ground Targets
400 pts - HQ (Tunisia)
93 pts - A25 (Tunisia)
19 pts - A103 (Tunisia)
69 pts - P109 (Tunisia)
51 pts - P6 (Malta)
208 pts - A47 (Malta)
Total = 840
Defense of bases
3 pts - CITY (Sardinia)
10 pts - A3 (Sardinia)
12 pts - A44 (Sardinia)
50 pts - V12 (Sicily)
186 pts - A11 (Sicily)
191 pts - A4 (Sicily)
146 pts - V5 (Sicily)
Total = 598
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ALLIES
AIR KILLS
250 pts - 25 109G2s
40 pts - 4 109G6s
100 pts - 10 190A5s
10 pts - 1 C.205
45 pts - 3 110G2
375 pts - 25 JU87s
260 pts - 13 JU88s
TOTAL = 1080
Ground Targets
388 pts - CITY (Sardinia)
254 pts - A3 (Sardinia)
180 pts - A44 (Sardinia)
96 pts - V12 (Sicily)
6 pts - A11 (Sicily)
1 pts - A4 (Sicily)
0 pts - V5 (Sicily)
Total = 925
Defense of bases
110 pts - HQ (Tunisia)
288 pts - A25 (Tunisia)
173 pts - A103 (Tunisia)
22 pts - P109 (Tunisia)
40 pts - P6 (Malta)
56 pts - A47 (Malta)
Total = 689
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On behalf of Navajo24 and myself I would like to thank all the AXIS squads for the effort that they put forth last night. I saw 100% cooperation from these squads all working together for a common cause. Win, lose or draw I have the utmost respect for these men.
I also would like to thank the ALLIED squads for making this one of the best Frames that I have been in. What a fight we had.
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are the b24 deaths accounting for discos.
I had all birds in flight about 10 minutes from final.
then poof. We lost a couple of 24 pilots to disco otw back
to base. Myself, Robo and traveler all discoed at 00:34.
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Originally posted by BBQ_Bob
On behalf of Navajo24 and myself I would like to thank all the AXIS squads for the effort that they put forth last night. I saw 100% cooperation from these squads all working together for a common cause. Win, lose or draw I have the utmost respect for these men.
I also would like to thank the ALLIED squads for making this one of the best Frames that I have been in. What a fight we had.
Yes indeed. to all that participated!!! Mark one for the Axis!!! Lets keep it going!!
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The B24 deaths are ones where Axis pilots are credited with a kill. If you took no damage to your planes and disco you should be fine. If you took damage but the LW plane that had hit you was dead again you should be fine.
I will take a look at the logs .. but any disco is not counted.
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Just went through the allied discos .. there were 18 (although 2 were gunners). None of them credit the LW with kills.
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I would like some clarification about the second life of the Ju-87 pilots. If they were shot down or crashed and get a second life does that mean they can re-up in any plane they want. I always assumed that the second life for those types of planes was to allow the squad flying them to re-up a second time in the same plane to attack their assigned target again with hopefully more success than the first attempt.
I see in the logs that the VMF-1 Nightmares upped at A114 in Ju-87's attacked a target and were killed or crashed (and allot of the crashes were very close to the same time) and then they all re-upped at field A44 in Bf-109 G2's at 2335-40 time frame. This is when most of the B-24 kills happend.
I'm not the smartest guy in the world but I can read. When I see that many "tragically crashes" in a log at the same time and then within 5-10 min re-upped in fighters at a field that is coming under attack, it makes me think someone ordered those pilots to auger and then go change planes at a field 170 miles from were they started taking unfair addvantage of their second life.
Yeah I'm throwing the BULL$#@T flag down on this one because that tactic is just plain wrong!!!
I am respectfully requesting that the rule of a second life be reviewed as to what is and is not allowed, and I would further request to see the originial copy of the AXIS orders that were sent out, to see if this tactic was written into the orders to begin with.
Hornet33
III/JG44 Bomber Squadron
Tactical Officer
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Originally posted by Hornet33
I am respectfully requesting that the rule of a second life be reviewed as to what is and is not allowed, and I would further request to see the originial copy of the AXIS orders that were sent out, to see if this tactic was written into the orders to begin with.
Hornet33
III/JG44 Bomber Squadron
Tactical Officer
While we're at it, I'd like to see a second life added for anyone at all for manning the field guns only. It's frustrating to helplessly stand in the tower watching the nme mauling your field.
F4jCH:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Hornet33
......Yeah I'm throwing the BULL$#@T flag down on this one because that tactic is just plain wrong!!!....
Hornet33
III/JG44 Bomber Squadron
Tactical Officer
As for the JU 87's these are the rules that I received in my objectives.
JU87 - no min requirement, no max limit (get second lives)
and
JU87s get second lives. NOBODY ON ALLIED SIDE GETS A SECOND LIFE THIS FRAME!
No where does it state that the JU 87 pilots have to reup in the same plane. Using the JU 87's the way we did was perfectly acceptable. And furthermore I take offense to your statement. As far as receiving a copy of our orders I will not be sending any to you.
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The JU87 and actually any plane that is given a second life is and always has been allowed to up in any plane that is available to that sides planeset.
The one caveat to this is they are not allow to up in planes that would cause these planes to go over their max allowed number in the frame.
This is why the Nightmares VMF-101 came up in 109G2s and not 109G6s.
As for purposefully augering to defend a field. Sorry that did not happen. Nightmares were assigned to hit P109 in a NOE attack unescorted.
It was called operation lamb slaughter. The Axis CiC wanted the JU87s to go in first because he thought that they would be slaughtered and not make it to target. However, he hoped they would suck down the defending fighters to the deck and exhaust their ammo in killing the JU87s. Basically to open the way to a higher JU88 attack that was to hit later .. allied fighters to low to intercept and low on ammo.
From what I can tell the JU87 attacks in southern Tunisia and Malta did just this. However, the JU87 attacks on northern Tunisia actually punched through. We broke into 3 flights and spread ourselves out over a 25 mile front .. south, center, and north. P38s in the south caught that flight and slaughtered it but missed the center and the north flight which got in and hit the Port and then were slaughtered at the port.
Nightmares orders were to reup at A44 once all dead and to defend Sardinia. We did .. and we actually were dead and reupped significantly before the B24 attacks came in.
You actually flanked us .. we deployed a full sector and half farther south than where the B24s initially came in and had to race back to Sardinia to try to stop the attack. A3 was lost in the first wave.
Then a second larger B24 wave came in and that is where action got hot and heavy.
Nightmares were never given orders to auger on command and actually it has been understood in the past that if a CM catches a squad doing that there will be a penalty. I will make it clear for frame 2 by reminding people of it.
If you die you can reup if you have a second life when you want to. If you survive you must land your plane at a base before reupping with your second life.
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OK so if you are flying a plane with 2 lifes, and get killed, crash whatever. You can reup in whatever you want as long as the second plane does not excede the allowable limits for that type in the frame? I am asking because it is my understanding that you are allowed to up 2 times in the one plane assigned.
As for the JU 87's these are the rules that I received in my objectives.
JU87 - no min requirement, no max limit (get second lives)
and
JU87s get second lives. NOBODY ON ALLIED SIDE GETS A SECOND LIFE THIS FRAME!
No where does it state that the JU 87 pilots have to reup in the same plane.
OK: No where does it state that you CAN change planes either. Thats my whole point. I read this as you get to fly twice in a JU 87. You read it as you fly it once then pick something else for your second life. This creates confusion and needs to clarified. Right now this is a grey area and subject to the opinions of individuals.
My question is what is the rule concerning this? If there isn't one there needs to be one.
If my posts offended anyone you have my apologies, however I pay my money for this game the same as everyone else. I play because I enjoy it and most everyone I have met in this game is honorable. What is saw in the logs made me question that. Now I belive the honorable thing to do is find the answer to this question and make it 100% clear to everyone so this can be resolved. If not I fear that this will raise it's ugly head in the future when/if it happens again.
I'm not trying to be part of the problem, I'm trying to be part of the solution.
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I understand your frustration, this was a tough frame and a hard one to swallow with the difference being less then 200 points but your question was answered by Ghostdancer......
....."The JU87 and actually any plane that is given a second life is and always has been allowed to up in any plane that is available to that sides planeset."......
No grey area at all.
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....."The JU87 and actually any plane that is given a second life is and always has been allowed to up in any plane that is available to that sides planeset."......
No grey area at all. [/B][/QUOTE]
Roger that. I did not know that when I looked at the logs, and hence my slightly negative attitude about this. If I may recomend in the future, when the operation summery comes out prior to an event listing the planes, if one or more planes gets a second life to make it clear that it is not the plane that gets a second life it is the pilot and he or she may choose a different plane from the list according to the CO's orders.
Thank you for hearing me out, and I hope there are no hard feelings.
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No hard feelings here and very good suggestion on making it clear that the pilot gets the second life.
I am also checking the CM logs reviewing JU87 use.
CM logs record things as:
- Killed
- Crashed
- Ditched
- Bailed
- Captured
- Disco
Then it will assign kill credit or a manuever kill credit. The logs open to the pilots were programmed by us and tend to be a little more flowery .. disco = Mysterically Disappeared .. crashed = Tragically Crashed, etc.
But you pointed out another item I have to remind people of. Those pilots with second lives .. if they live must RTB. No augering on purpose just to speed up the process of getting to use a second life in a new plane.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
If I may recomend in the future, when the operation summery comes out prior to an event listing the planes, if one or more planes gets a second life to make it clear that it is not the plane that gets a second life it is the pilot and he or she may choose a different plane from the list according to the CO's orders.
That's a good point. It has always been a confusing issue to me!
W~
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Once our 87s hit the port we all dropped like flies from the 38s. I remember hearing.."Im down"..Im dead".."Down".."Im hit..argh down" all in a very short time span.
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Make this easy
Second life has to leave the same field!! Still can be plane of choice but leaves out the defend aspect!
Nice run BBQ I'll be lookin for you and your boys next run!!
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You know after looking at logs seems to me the stukas augered in. the shills went down around 23:39, JG26 most around 23:29
and the VMF around 23:34. with alot of crashes, shot down by unknown enemy(which means crash) and shot down by with (crashed) next to it. and all reupping within a minute of each other in 109's.
Seems pretty gamey to me if this is the case then Second lives need to be ELIMINATED.
And to launch stukas from one base, all seemingly go down at same times and reup in 109's at field that soon will be under attack is Bull. :mad:
This has to be addressed
The only justice is we made it ther and back with minimal losses
thanks to the 327th for the outstanding escort.
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No they did not auger in .. crash on purpose. Here are the raw logs:
8/26/2005 23:26:56 - BigR - End Flight - Killed - - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:30:05 - GhstDncr - End Flight - Crashed - KaK3MAW - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:30:16 - MGD - End Flight - Killed - KaK3MAW - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:30:45 - ramesis - End Flight - Killed - JRCCrow - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:31:20 - Syzygy - End Flight - Crashed - SoloMAW - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:31:39 - SMUZ - End Flight - Killed - JRCCrow - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:32:15 - MAG1C - End Flight - Killed - SoloMAW - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:10 - matelot - End Flight - Killed - - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:16 - TahGut - End Flight - Crashed - Ramon - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:52 - JSO - End Flight - Killed - - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:54 - WiNgMaN9 - End Flight - Killed - - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:33:55 - DaPup - End Flight - Killed - - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:34:15 - 50cals - End Flight - Crashed - - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:34:29 - CptHowdy - End Flight - Crashed - SoloMAW - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:34:39 - TyrNM - End Flight - Crashed - SoloMAW - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:07 - iKo - End Flight - Killed - JRCCrow - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:38 - WEZMAN - End Flight - Crashed - Ramon - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:41 - Iceberg9 - End Flight - Crashed - KaK3MAW - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:48 - TopHat - End Flight - Killed - KaK3MAW - Nightmares VMF-1
8/26/2005 23:35:55 - FiLtH - End Flight - Crashed - KaK3MAW - Nightmares VMF-1
You will note that 7 Nightmares died from 23:34 to 23:35. Checking the kill logs (the information above is from the End Flight logs) CptHowdy and Iceberg were maneuver kills. The others, TyrNM, iKo, Wezman, TopHat, and Filth were granted as kill credits. Meaning they actually were shot up by the allied pilots getting credit for their kills.
The battle was on the deck and as you know planes blowing up are not the norm in AH2. Basically what happened with these 5 pilots is they got shot up and lossed a wing, tail, etc. and then plowed into the ground .. a crash. However, if they just crashed on purpose it would have only generated a maneuver kill not a kill credit.
So out of the 7 there at the end 5 were shot down.
At the beginning of the battle .. my flight got jumped to the south. I had a wing blown clean off and spun into the ground. End Flight log registers it as a crash, Kak3MAW got the kill credit and did shoot me down (I just didn't blow up).
As for the rest .. BigR, Matelot, Wingman9, and DaPup were taken out by AAA fire, End Flight registers a kill but does not give anyone a credit, if they crashed it would have registered as a crash. Only true crash was 50cals.
I would also advise you talk to the MAW who were engaged with the JU87s at the time and see if they think that surviving Stukas were not evading, scrafing, etc. .. but all just up and augered on purpose.
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I would also suggest you actually fly Stukas in close formation and see what happens when you get jumped on the deck by P38s and other allied fighters. It doesn't take very long at all to get slaughtered.
You will also note that of all the JU87 attacks only P109 could be deemed successful (20 JU87s in three groups heading in across a 25 mile front), the other attacks were not successful.
The Axis CiC sent in 3 squads to hit the allied targets in JU87s NOE .. Nightmares, Uknighted JG26, and Shillelagh. There whole purpose was the following, quoted from the actual orders:
The idea here is to send a low wave of slow bombers to draw down the high cap usually associated with the patrol. This will ensure that our higher alt bombers get past and get us the victory. Nighmares and Uknighted will have plenty of time to become lamb chops and up at A44 to defend what should be a large bomber force going to destroy a major portion of the intended targets. (Yellow on the Map).
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Basically the Axis CiC gambled on that you guys would send in the slower B24Js to hit Sardinia. So he was hoping that the JU87s would die hitting their targets and then have the time to up at the Sardinia bases and get to alt to intercept the incoming B24s. The Axis CiC left the Sardinia bases completely open.
I know the B24Js carry a heavier bomb load but the B26Bs carry 4000 lbs so 12,000 lbs total for a formation. If the Allied CiC had used those instead of the B24s it is possible that you guys could have hit Sardinia before the JU87s could have respawned in fighters and taken off and gotten to alt to intercept.
Nightmares took off at 23:38 in 109G2s. The initial B24s bombed A3 at 23:54; 16 minute window for the 109G2s (Fields opened around 23:12 and first B24 took off at 23:13)
So basically the Axis CiC guess correctly that B24s would be used
and that the JU87s would die before the allieds got to Sardinia.
The allied commander put your squad, the Fate, and the C-Hawks in B24s which was 40 pilots or 120 B24s. I know the JG44 and Chawks hit Sardinia (not sure what Fate targetted) so that is 32 Pilots or 96 B24s hitting the island.
If 8 less B24s had been shot down the frame would have been a tie. If more escorts had been assigned (only 15 from the 327th) .. quite proably more B24Js would have survived.
Overall the allied strike on Sardinia used 47 pilots (out of 95 flying) and fielded 111 planes. Sardinia was defended only by Nightmares and Uknighted .. 28 planes .. using their second lives to up there. So 96 B24s and 15 P38s versus 28 (21 109G2s and I think UKnighted were in 109G6s).
Meanwhile only 16 Spits and 4 Mossies upped over at Malta. Only A4 was attacked and one gun destroyed. Nothing was destroyed at V5.
Each CiC chose there battle plans. The Allies threw close to 49.5% of their pilots at Sardinia (pilots not planes .. so not counting the extra B24s in formation). Meanwhile they threw just 4 Mossies at A4 and V5 (no idea of escort strength but 4 Mossies can not take out a Vehicle or an airbase).
Each side decided on their priorities and took gambles. The allies gambled that taking out Sardinia targets and western sicilian would make up for a very, very weak attack on the eastern sicilian.
The Axis gambled by leaving Sardinia undefended and hoped that the second lifers would be killed in time to up and defend the island .. knowing that JU87s are basically dead if intercepted.
The net result was that both gambles paid off and the battle was fought to basically a tie. In hindsight if the Allied CiC had taken say 10 of your pilots and put them into escorts that would have given 25 escorts and still would have had 22 B24 pilots or 66 B24s. A3 was destroyed by the CHawks who also did around 30-40% damage to the city. The city was creamed by you guys and A44 was destroyed but by your lead elements and possibly mid elements. I know there was still B24s coming and dropping after most things were dead.
So hindsight suggests that too many B24s were tasked to hit the targets and that more escorts could have prevented the LW fighters from bagging 48.
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Though I think that the 2nd life rule should be narrowed a bit I did not see any indication that the Shills augered. We spotted them low outside the radar circle and they almost got ord on target minus various parts.They tried real hard. It was our intention to disable and conserve ammo. We knew the 88s w/escorts were not far behind and rearming would cost us. We grabed all the alt we could but did not have time to spead for searching. They were on HQ before we could get to them. But the 7 of us(commitment level error had CiC thinking there would be more) did manage to save 45% of the attack/deffence points or 25% overall. And with a 3 to 1 for AC kill points and several 88s damaged to hamper a second strike I'd say we had a good frame. I'm saddend that our efforts were negeted by problems elsewere. I fear discos far more than an enemy that can find an advantage within the rules. Rules can be altered if an unfare advantage is found. I do think the choices for second life should be narrowed some.
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Now I would ask people to be a bit more "calm" when commenting on things. Do you research and present your logic, questions or case.
Making accusations that multiple squads were ordered to auger on command to interecept an incoming attack is a serious accusation.
I have seen no evidence yet that any of the JU87 squads "augered on command."
Next, yes the plan was for the JU87s to draw the defenders low and keep them their and use up their ammo so that JU88 could come in on high and hit the targets unopposed.
And yes, after dying they were to up and defend areas in Sardinia. But once again no, they did not die and then rush to Sardinia to intercept an attack.
They upped at Sardinia and 16 minutes later an attack came in (the Chawks with out escort). This was followed by the JG44 attack with escorts at 0:09 or 15 minutes after that. So clearly JU87s did not die on command to intercept a discovered inbound attack.
They died fighting to get there targets, which they did not expect to hit which is why JU88s were tasked in following up attacks, and they then upped to defend targets with no indication of where the enemy was coming from.
Under the rules this was valid. You can call it gamey that is your opinion. It also could be called gamey by some that only 4 Mossies were tasked to hit a Vehicle base and airfield. But once again this is acceptable under the rules that an attack must be made at least in squad strength (4-6 is the lowest squad committment level number).
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How about we just eliminate the whole controversy invovled here by making it 1 plane/1 pilot/1 life across the board. Make the kill points for planes like the Stuka and SBD low and the attack points high to offset the capabilities, or lack there of, of those types of planes.
The AXIS tactics the other night were very gamey. You guys used a loop hole in the rules to get away with it. OK fine. It's in the rules and we'll have to live with it, but it doesn't make it right.
Ghostdancer, you said in an earlier post that the AXIS CO sent the 3 squads with stukas in low and un escorted in the hopes that they would be slaughtered, so they could then re up at A44 and defend in 109's. It was your guy's plan, you followed it, and it worked, but at what cost? People are looking at this thinking OK they have stukas, but what are they really going to be flying when I get to my target? Oh and how are you guys going to feel when the tables are turned on you with this tactic?
Lets get rid of the 2nd life. You fly what you get, and if you die your out. If your flying stukas or SBD's, you better make your plans accordingly so you can survive.
Alright I've had my say and I'm done:(
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I am considering the suggestion of 2nd life pilots must up from the same base they originally upped from.
However, I have to think about this in some depth because there are some problems with it. Mainly if they up from a base that is a target and the Fighter or Bomber hangars are destroyed what should be done?
I can't not have them get their second life. So do we restore a FH or BH so they can up and then destroy it as a CM. Or do we let them up from the next closest field.
If CVs are involved and the CV is killed what then?
So there are several issues I need to think about and discuss with other CMs.
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Oh, and just for reference even if that rule was in place in frame 1. The JU87s upped from A114 and A4. Instead of defending Sardinia (upping at A44 and A3) they could have upped again from A114 and A4 and defended sicily (flown from those bases and defended the sicily areas). While the squads tasked with defending Sicily would have been switched to defending Sardinia.
Same gamble just different island left undefended initially.
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I have personally flown in FSO since 2001. The tables have been turned on me many times. This is not the first case of a side which has had planes with pilots that have 2 lives upping those planes as bait to bring defenders down.
The main goal was to bring the defenders down and exhaust their ammo. The JU87s were tasked with hitting the targets but nobody expected that to happen since the JU87 is dead meet when discovered by fighters.
It was then hoped that the actions would resolved themselves in time for the JU87 pilots to up again and help with defense.
The strategy could have proven very disasterous.
I am not defending this from a bias of being on the LW side. Although I did defend the accusations levelled at me and my squad of not fighting to the death but augering on command.
I will have no problem with the Allies doing the same sort of thing when they have SBDs with second lives.
Sending in the SBDs and then having them up to defend the CVs or up to defend Malta, etc.
As for getting rid of 2nd lives for some pilots. Not going to happen. There are some planes that stand no chance of survival when engaged by fighters of the opposing side.
- Val
- Kate
- Ju87
- SBD (depending on plane set)
- IL2 (dependign on plane set)
In 2001 and 2002 we had 1 life for all planes but Daddog and others instituted 2nd lives for certain planes (and GVs) because of the complaints and outcries of squads over it. When you fly for 30 minutes only to get slaughtered with no real chance at all of defending yourself or killing an enemy plane .. many squads found it frustrating (to put it mildly) and kill their interest in wanting to participate in the event. Some squads accepted it took it on the nose as to be team players many did not.
That is why it change to having certain planes, if used, giving a pilot a second life. It is not really about the points for killing the planes .. it was based on the factor of fun. It is not fun for many to be assigned to planes that they know they are dead, its just of matter of when they get engaged.
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I'm for both sides getting an infearior plane w/2nd life. I've had some good times in SBDs and B5Ns. And it obviously shakes thangs up a bit.:)
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Lets get rid of the 2nd life. You fly what you get, and if you die your out. If your flying stukas or SBD's, you better make your plans accordingly so you can survive.
Alright I've had my say and I'm done:(
I'll bet if u were in a Stuka (with the 1 life rule),your attitude would change a bit.
I also think u need to back off a lil' on your comments. Your throwin around accusations awfully loose. My squad wasnt even in Stukas last night, but I can tell u I'm offended for the squads that were. I know none of them were orderd to auger in order to defend.
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Originally posted by Dace
I'll bet if u were in a Stuka (with the 1 life rule),your attitude would change a bit.
I also think u need to back off a lil' on your comments. Your throwin around accusations awfully loose. My squad wasnt even in Stukas last night, but I can tell u I'm offended for the squads that were. I know none of them were orderd to auger in order to defend.
I have flown stukas and it does suck when you get jumped. Not aurguing there.
I am not throwing accusations out either. I said in my first post that looking at the logs it gave the "impression" that flights were orderd to auger. I have been told by reliable sorces that this did NOT happen and I am taking their word for it. I have also givin my apollogy to those that might have been offended by my post when I suggested that this MAY have occured.
I will not flat out accuse anyone of cheating or anything unless I can prove it. I mearly asked that the situation in question be looked at. It has and my questions have been answered to my satisfaction. I may not agree with the answers on principal, but I have them and right now that is good enough for me.
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Perhaps the best solution is to offer the second life pilot a very limited choice of planes for the second life.
The first life of a two life assignment is often a "no lose" throw away deal. You get a plane that is for all intents and purposes a flying coffin. If you get to the objective and drop a bomb on target, you win no matter what, whether you live or die. If you get shot down and never reach the objective, you get a new life and a new, far better plane, so you don't really lose anything, other than a plane that has a low point value.
Perhaps a better and more fair approach would be to offer the next best attack plane for the second life to the pilots who get the flying coffin for the first life. Or a second life in the same plane.
I agree that it is very hard to justify giving a pilot one ride in a plane he is almost certainly destined to die regardless of his skill or efforts. However, perhaps giving him one complete throw away attack plane PLUS a front line fighter is too much.
The second life offers a major advantage in some cases if properly used, and cannot be overcome. If you have to defend against a throw away plane, you cannot use the same pilot you defend with to escort a strike all the way across the battlefield, while the two life pilot ''teleports" across the battlefield to a brand new frontline fighter when he dies, and attacks the strike force with the reduced escort.
The two life pilot CAN be a force multiplier that is too strong, or has far more advantages than disadvantages. It isn't always, but it is sometimes.
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Hornet my comment about presenting "calm" was not aimed at you. We already discussed things and the percieved augering issue.
It was in response to another person bringing up he same issue and accusations and the way it was phrased.
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Dace Hornet and I already discussed this issue. It was another person in this thread that my latest round of posts were addressing not Hornet.
Same issue although about percieved augering on command, 2nd life Stukas, etc.
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If the JU87s were not used in frame 1 .. by this I mean lets throw out all the damage they did to ground targets and also any kills on them. And instead just count what they did in the defense of Sicily and Sardinia this is what the frame might have looked like.
AXIS
1450 = Air to Air Kills
715 = Ground Targets (loss of 125 pts of objects JU87s destroyed)
598 = Defense of bases
2763 = TOTAL
ALLIES
705 = Air to Air Kills (loss of 375 pts for killing JU87s)
925 = Ground Targets
814 = Defense of bases (increase 125 pts for objects JU87s killed)
2444 = TOTAL
[/list]
By not using the JU87s the Axis would have had 33 planes still to deploy. They could have deployed them the same way defensively on Sardinia and Sicily. Or they could have had them a bit thinner and more escorts assigned to JU88s strikes.
The Axis even without the JU87s did attack all 3 target zones. They had assigned the 68th, III/Jabostaffel, 65th, 9 GIAP, and the DAMNED against the targets.
Plus, even taking the JU87s out the axis still hit the three target zones before T+60.
As for the allied planes being back up to alt and full ammo. In the case of A103 there were in good position and the non JU87 forces only did 19 points to the base.
A25 was hit by 42 JU88s plus escorts and 400 points garnered. The shills in JU87s tried to hit A25 .. they actually dumped on the town there for no points.
So maybe you would have had those defenders also to help against the HQ hit.
Malta was savaged by the non JU87s squads assigned to hit it. And then later by the defenders of eastern Sicily after they took care of the small attack in that region. Looks like the Allies deployed 16 Spitfires and 4 Mossies from Malta. The non JU87 attack came in 30 minutes after the JU87 attack. 5 JU87s were shot down .. so again .. not sure of the real affect of the JU87s. The definitely pulled some down to the deck and used up there ammo. But allies probably would still had a decent screen in place.
So overall the Axis might have been less successful against the ground targets. Then again they might not have been.
But looking at the numbers (doing more analysis) it actually looks like the JU87 strategy might have ended up hurting the Axis. They loss 375 points of aircraft by doing the attacks and only scored 125 points by hitting their ground targets (personally I suprised we did that much damage). So a net loss of 250 points actually based on the results.
If the Axis had gone say with maybe some 110s, little stronger escorts, or more JU88s, and then kept a large fighter force in Sardinia .. based on the above numbers .. they might have done much better in the frame.
So while the Axis strategy was an innovative attempt at dealing with the strategic issues facing them it looks like it actually hurt them slightly.
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ghost -
Did you discount the original crashes (some of which look to have been counted as 'killed by unknown') of JG44, where we were given permission to auger cuz we upped without our formations (doh!)?
Just asking bud, thanks for all your hard work on this!
Casper1
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I wouldnt mess with the thing too much. Start making a squad fly a lousy ride with no chance of fun, and guys start forgetting to show up. Its human nature. I know if my friday night was going to consist of a stuka run and dying(which normally happens in stukas), I may have stayed at the party I left to get home to do FSO.
Second lives are necessary. Simpy announce which bases are second life upping bases so both teams can plan accordingly. However care must be taken not to force a 2nd live spawn in an area that can be easily suppressed by the enemy denying you a launch.
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Yes, I don't count augers in the first T+15 of the frame. Since allow for people upping do to crashes, discos, etc. in the first T+15.
So I didn't count those augers.
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People lets get over it already, nobody augered there is no way that would happen. It is in everyone's nature to try and survive, I was in a JU 87 attacking A47, we were on the deck almost to the base when we saw spits up high we made sure that they saw us and and came down to the deck to chase us back to A47 where we dropped our ords, soon after the spits made short work JU 87's. JG 26-357th did not auger, I mean think about what you are saying it makes no sense at all. Really is there anyone out there that would do that, I don't think so this is not the M.A. the people that fly in FSO are cut from a different cloth we will do everything we can to complete our assigned missions. It just did not happen.
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And where was the uproar when I posted about the IL2s getting a second life? :huh
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Originally posted by JB42
And where was the uproar when I posted about the IL2s getting a second life? :huh
42 u know the Axis take it in the butt round here:D
~S~
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Dace Hornet and I already discussed this issue. It was another person in this thread that my latest round of posts were addressing not Hornet.
Same issue although about percieved augering on command, 2nd life Stukas, etc.
Yes I understand, my post was meant to be viewd by the other person as well. There were some respectful squads in question there and I was just trying to clarify that fact. No hard feelings.
~S~
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assuming I'm the other person, my appoligies I do realize that FSO squads are cut from another cloth. But look at it from my point of view; I wasn't there and was looking at the logs as a baseball boxscore for someone who didn't see the game.
And from that point of view alone, it looked questionable(not saying it happened). I did say it seemed not saying it happened.
I should have worded my opinion better, my main gripe is what and where second lives come from.
Again i can't appoligize enough for my earlier post, I realize the cream of the crop flies FSO and I don't mean to dispect any squad.
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Now I have heard it all. May I designate the topic of 2nd life to "FSO biggest pain in the A"? When someone complains about IL-2's getting a second life, I understand, but Ju87's?? They are about the most benign airplane in the plane list, and about the only thing you can accomplish in one is to waste someone else’s ammo.
Hornet33, I know you from the racing league, and I am not attacking you, but I have never felt that Ju87's would ever draw the "no fair" card in FSO. Your comments have helped me make an important observation about the 2nd life I have never thought of before, and which makes me believe more strongly that the 2nd life status should be used even less than I had originally reasoned. Giving 2nd life to someone in a plane such as a Ju87, depending on the CIC giving the orders, almost guarantees that they will have no chance of survival. Because of the 2nd life, we (myself included) have learned to deploy these aircraft into situations and scenarios that would not be dreamed of in real life. What Axis or Allied commander would deploy Ju87's, B5n's or SBD's without air cover? For that matter, what pilots would go on such a mission in real life? Yet we see it all the time simply because they are expendable, and we can plan their 2nd life into the frame.
I do not think that this kind of deployment is beneficial to the FSO event in the long run. Aircraft should be deployed with a realistic chance of completing their assignment. How a second life is used is not the question. A second life is exactly that, a completely different life, representing a reserve unit deployed part way through the event. But tossing away the first life to get to the second life is really what the problem is, weather augered or a suicide mission.
May I suggest a thought on correction? Provide an incentive for preserving the first life. This could be done in two ways, either deduct points from the side for each 2nd life aircraft (Ju87 in this case) that does not return, or give bonus points to the other side for each 2nd life aircraft destroyed. The side deploying the 2nd life aircraft already gets a bonus in the form of a new life in a new plane. Therefore, any pilots not returning from their original mission must pay for their second life in the form of the cost of the new aircraft or in the cost of the aircraft they just gave to the enemy. Any points they earn in the second life aircraft are effectively offset by the fact that they did not return in the first life. I could explain this further if you think it is beneficial GhostDancer.
The only reason I mention this is because the objections to 2nd life have now extended to aircraft I would have otherwise never considered a problem.
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Originally posted by TracerX
May I suggest a thought on correction?...
When the 2nd life ride is killed the opponent country already gets 15 points and because of the weak nature of these rides, I consider them to be cannon fodder. The points are almost guaranteed unless the CiC and his GL spend the time working out how to increase their survival using limited resources.
IMO You really don't want to be messing with a scoring system that has worked for years, and in one of the AAR above, a large portion of one group actually survived to rtb.
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easy, what tracer i believe is saying is that scoring isn't the problem. But using planes as bait and sacrificing them for what ever reason was not a primary function of the air war in WW2.
especially if ya get a second life in fiter, wheres the incentive to stay alive, in the flying target. (this is not directed at this past frame)
and if everybody already has a prenotion that these type of planes are as good as dead. Then why would anybody try and plan a returnable flight for them. Its a failed notion before its concieved.
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Well I have two suggestions that I am now looking into for 2nd life planes.
[list=1]
- They must up from the base they launched from. However, some conditions must be made just in case this base (more likely a CV) is destroyed. So possibly next nearest base also if home base destroyed.
- Of the question of incentive to get these planes home. I don't want to increase the value of the plane .. denying the enemy the points if they survive .. i.e. change it to value 20 or 25.
However, might think about giving a survival bonus. You get a JU87 home and landed (logs do capture lands) that side gets points for you doing so. Hopefully that would give the pilots an incentive to try to get home and to the CiC to try to plan missions where they could get home.
Just have to figure out whether to give them their full value of 15 as bonus or say something like 10.
[/list]
These are modifications I am considering based on the constructive feedback here.
Oh, and always there is 1,000,000 point bonus for anyone shooting down Daddog .. friend or foe. ;)
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Now as for the IL2 and the JU87s. I think my position has been the same on both. I believe they both deserve second lives.
I don't think the use of either actually unbalance the frame and in the case of the JU87s the Germans might actually have done better not to use them based on actually performance during the frame.
The main points that seem to be coming up is the fact that a large force can spawn say on the south front (out of Panterilla in this case), get wiped out and then act as a strategic reserve and come up on another front en masse 100s of miles away (Sardinia).
Plus, there being no real incentive for the pilots of these planes to try to survive (personally I think the pilots do try to survive .. its a rush to actually get home and land when you thought you were as a good as dead when you took off).
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Good points doobs
I'm mostly responding to the call to change scoring because of one bad frame. That's usually not a good idea but I'm sure if it needs doing ghostdancer can come up with something that will work.
One of the best things about FSO is the rotating COs and that escorts are usually provided to Stuka/Il2/bomber/Jabo rides. I don't think any future CO that flew the Stuka mission in last fridays' frame will send out another Stuka squad without escorts because he's walked in those shoes and no one likes to get shot down in FSO; even if it is in a cannon fodder Stuka.
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Of the question of incentive to get these planes home. I don't want to increase the value of the plane .. denying the enemy the points if they survive .. i.e. change it to value 20 or 25.
However, might think about giving a survival bonus. You get a JU87 home and landed (logs do capture lands) that side gets points for you doing so. Hopefully that would give the pilots an incentive to try to get home and to the CiC to try to plan missions where they could get home.
Just have to figure out whether to give them their full value of 15 as bonus or say something like 10.
The only reason I did not suggest a bonus to the side that has the 2nd life aircraft is because they are the advantaged side already. They are the ones throwing away the first life. Their pilots get two lives and now we want to add a bonus on top of the second life? I merely thought that a pilot that does not return his plane must "pay" for his second life by forefiting the cost of the airplane he takes up. It may end up costing him nothing because he has the potential to rejoin the fight and shoot down more enemies. Anyone returning their first life gets a bonus in effect by not having to pay this cost. The cost is a way to compensate the other side for having to shoot someone down twice. Remember we are trying to prevent abuse of the 2nd life airplanes, not the other way around.
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
[list=1]- They must up from the base they launched from. However, some conditions must be made just in case this base (more likely a CV) is destroyed. So possibly next nearest base also if home base destroyed.
If you require the second life to up at the same field as the Stuka, aren't you putting more pressure on them to die quickly so they can reup and fly to the next battle?
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Originally posted by Easyscor
If you require the second life to up at the same field as the Stuka, aren't you putting more pressure on them to die quickly so they can reup and fly to the next battle?
I agree Easyscor, as long as the first life is used correctly, I could care less where the 2nd life spawns from. The only reason we see complaints on where the second life spawns from is because the first life is not being used realisticly.
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Originally posted by doobs
and if everybody already has a prenotion that these type of planes are as good as dead. Then why would anybody try and plan a returnable flight for them. Its a failed notion before its concieved.
I think Doobs described the problem very eloquently there.
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Originally posted by TracerX
I agree Easyscor, as long as the first life is used correctly, I could care less where the 2nd life spawns from. The only reason we see complaints on where the second life spawns from is because the first life is not being used realisticly.
I disagree, what did the first have to do with the second life spawn point? It was chosen before the frame not made up as we died horrible deaths in our stukas. This whole thing is silly, this is the way it has been for BOTH sides for longer than I've been around here. Filth was right on though, I sure wouldn't waste an hour of my time to die in a stuka then log....think I'll stay in MA or make my wife happy ;) instead.
DaPup out
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Actually the two complaints here, at the start of the thread, were about the perception that the Stukas augered on command and then upped at field they did not spawn from to stop and attack.
They upped Panterilla and then reupped in Sardinia hundreds of miles away.
The discussion of them being used realistically or not was toward the end of the thread. Most have focused on the issues above.
And on the Eastern Front the Germans actually did use the Stukas without escorts and found out what happened when enemy fighters were not around .. Stukas died. But sometimes still had to do it because of not enough fighters to screen.
In Frame 1 case the death of the Stukas cost the Germans a bit. This is the beauty of hindsight .. we can actually see the results of plans after the battle and do some analysis.
As stated the net loss for the Stuka use was 250 points to the allies. The Stukas did very little damage to the enemy facilities and whether they actually succeeded in drawing the enemy (allied fighters) out of position or burning up their ammo is debatable. Since the JU88 attacks came in late enough to allow the defenders to rearm and get back into position.
As posted earlier in the thread if I discount the Stuka deaths and the damage they did the Germans actually scored better. Even if you then allow for the Allies planes doing better against the JU88 strikes since they did not have to tangle with Stukas (no allied planes lost to Stukas) the results seem to probably still have been the same as what happened.
So people can debate realistic or not. Remember Stuka strikes actually did happen unescorted in the Med and Eastern front. The German players basically though just learned what happens when a Stuka a strike is intercepted .. slaughter.
I am sure the next frame German commander will consider the actually results for his plan. Meaning escort the Stukas or possibly use a different plane set mix to try to achieve better battle results.
As I said the nice thing about FSO is we do have hindsight and that CiCs can experiment and learn what works and what does not. Or hwo well certain things work.
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I also disagree that the side with the 2nd life planes have an advantage. The FSO was constructed to try to balance things.
The Germans do not have to use the Stukas. The use of them is very tricky to pull off. If you use them pilots are stuck in slow planes that either need to sneak in or have heavy escorts to get through.
The 110 is actually a better plane for a sneak attack or if needing an escort.
The 2nd life is hard to actually use effectively but is best used as a strategic reserve.
However, this strategic reserve is heavily offset by the fact that the FSO allows the allies to use bomber formations. The JU88 is not in the class of the B24 or B26 in fire power or toughness. 109Gs and 190A5 and C.205s have a hard time with these bombers and at best can usually average 1 to 2 kills on a formation by most pilots.
Meaning the allies can and actually did swamp the axis defenders with bombers (again see earlier on in the thread).
If the allies did not have formations on then the Axis strategic reserve would be more of a swing factor. But even with this strategic reserve the Axis were not able to save Sardinia. They shot down a lot of B24s (48) and barely took the frame.
However, this was not a given. If the allies went with less bombers hitting sardinia (say 10 pilots) they could have a stronger escort that could have possible prevent or at least reduce the numbers of bombers lost and still had more than enough bombers in the air to level the Sardinia targets.
Once again not a bad plan by the Allied commander at all. Just part of the learning process of figuring out how much is enough and then building in a fudge factor in case you suffer several losses before being able to drop bombs.
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Calling it a "plan" would be overly generous. When I jumped in to cover the Allied CiC, I assigned rides and targets... there was little time left to ponder the subtleties of strategy. The orders needed to get out as soon as possible.
That said, I'm pleased the frame went as well as it did. The best FSOs are the ones that are nearly ties, and that's exactly what we got last week.
Equal parts glory and death.
Like it should be. :)
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I really dont have a problem with the 2nd life for bombers and such, but I would like a clarification. To be eligible for the second life, do you have to successfully return to your original base, or if you are shot down does that second life comeinto play? Just a little foggy on that issue. As far as last friday nite went, I would say it was an overall good SO. Maybe a few tactical errors on both sides, but overall a good one. And I really want to thank DUX for takin over cic on such short notice.. I garuntee my next go around at cic will be better.... now that I have an idea of what im doin :aok
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I think last friday went very well and that both you and Dux came up and executed solid battle plans. It was very well fought on both sides by the players and the CiCs.
As for tactical errors .. well those happen and only really come out when you sit back and go over the actual results of the frame. Hindsight is 20/20 and the only way to learn is to actually put together a battle plan, execute it, and then see what went well and not well based on the results.
I am always amazed on how things actual play our what the results are based on the fighting versus what was projected before the frame starts.
Don't take anything I stated previously as a criticism. It was not meant to be. It was only meant to highlight how things actually turned out versus people's perceptions.