Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: killnu on August 27, 2005, 12:26:57 PM
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ok, what do i need to do to at least have 50/50 chance of living thru one? got to be something...losing everyone of them is getting old, considering there is a lot of people who pull for HO every chance they get, cant avoid all of them...i try, but not there yet. so, whats the trick?
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Honch's Guide to HOing. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97161)
Essential reading for any joust warrior.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Get horizontal seperation so the HO jerk is turning into you. Then you can just turn in under his nose where he can't shoot at you. Finally go up and over on top of him and kill the unskilled dweeb.
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Originally posted by Booz
Get horizontal seperation so the HO jerk is turning into you. Then you can just turn in under his nose where he can't shoot at you. Finally go up and over on top of him and kill the unskilled dweeb.
Yup, that's what I do. Ho dweebs are usually so dependant on the HO they aren't thinking about what to do if the HO fails. Just avoid the HO, loop over the top and pop 'em. My favorite way to do this is to initially act as though I am accepting the Ho, then kick full rudder, go into a climb which if they pull up to attempt to track for a shot turns into basically a vertical lead turn, then you've roped them and pulled lead on them in one move, they're toast 95% of the time. The only time someone lives is if they realize quickly enough that I was just head faking the HO and nose down and run for their life...
Zazen
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I lose Rams when i try to AVOID them because i usually turn and end up losing a wing from them continuing there Ho merge. I'm guessing they hit my plane with a harder part of their plane (what ever that would be) and it aint bullets. :eek:
So my answer to this question is RAM with all ya got and make sure (if possible) you both go to the ground atleast, seems to never happen i end up down 90% of the time still. Its the thought that counts. hehe! I have yet to channel 200 and throw out the "nice ram you" $%&*@ , because it dont work either.
Ramming is gunna happen here and there, and ill admit if im outa ammo, I'm a gunna ram yaz if I could. now thats funny as hell chasing a guy around when your bingo ammo on his 6, tring to ram the sob , it this point it aint that easy to ram , lol! why is that, when you want to ram someone you just cant get it done. lmmfao. But when You got 10 kills, ton of ammo left, why is ramming so easy then. :p
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i understand the HO stuff, im more interested in who takes the ram damage...i lose every ram im in...ill give the chance that i may of made it through one unscathed, so 99% of the time.
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Best plane for Ho's is 110G2
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I always thought he who first sees the ram loses, thus he who has the better connection to the MA loses.
I have had people run into me where I don't see it on my front end, and they go down. There was also the time where a guy was trying to get me to overshoot, I got to within about d100 on his hi 4 o'clock, then he jerked up to the right and bumped into me. Since I was the only one who saw the collision I took damage and he flew merrily away.
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Conection ........ Conection ....... Conection
Your Front end see the Ram before there's does. So you die.
Better conection less chance of living:huh
Crims
479th Raiders FG:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by crims
Conection ........ Conection ....... Conection
Your Front end see the Ram before there's does. So you die.
Better conection less chance of living:huh
OK, what if this happens. You and I are flying straight at each other. My connection is bad and dies, and I keep flying straight into you for a ram. Your pull up avoiding the crash. My connection comes back, and I see a collision, I die. You fly away, you didn't have a collision.
It works both ways, the best way to win a collision is to avoid it.
Gunner
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Gunr, i agree, but ive some people h311bent to do it.
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Take 2 connections, each have a ping of 0.1 secs. At 300 mph your travelling around 425ft per second.
So if both guys are flying towards one another we get a discrepancy of 170 feet between the front ends (425 *.2 *2 [closure speed =600mph])
This means that in a stall fight where the speed difference is say 30mph, you'd still be out around 9 feet or so. Now, I think AH does some pretty nifty prediction stuff but even so if you hit a guy, or it seems that he hit you, this does in no way imply that the other chap saw the same thing.
It's kind of like the gunnery: you see your shot lands = damage to them; you see yourself hit another plane = damage to you. It would be far worse if you took avoiding action and ended up dead all the same because the other guy "saw" it happen.
What is critical to this is the actual speed of your plane and theirs. Say you're going up on a rope and are just at the top of it flopping over and there's some guy coming barreling in on you at 400mph. As you're effectively not moving, his front end has a pretty good handle on where you are, or the lag results in very little discrepancy to where you see yourself. You, on the other hand, have a different picture. Your front end could well be showing this guy 200 feet behind where his front end knows he is.
So if you hit him, he wasn't there (as far as he's concerned), and if he hits you, well, it will look a bit odd seeing this plane blow up for no apparent reason, but a kill's a kill hey: wow didnt' even need any ammo for that guy!:)
Note: this also explains those "wtf bs" impossible angle shots that someone might get on you - for them it's a slightly different picture.
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Originally posted by killnu
i understand the HO stuff, im more interested in who takes the ram damage...
I'd say part 2 of your sentence disproves part 1.
*hic*
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Connection and Big Guns are best friend
of the HOers out there.
Most Lalas, Typh and Nik went on HO
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I'd say part 2 of your sentence disproves part 1.
i understand the HO stuff, im more interested in who takes the ram damage
OK, ill bite...how?
a HO shot and a ram can be two different things...ive taken and been HO'd but did not ram, ive been rammed/collided without ever facing each other...so please, how?
been in rolling siccors fight, got to close, i lossed the wing, not him. nvr faced each other once. so like i said, was interested in who took ram/collision damage?
seem connection is popular answer.
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Killnu its dead simple.
If you "see" a collision on your end, you take the appropriate damage. If you see a miss, you don't take damage.
The only person who can cause or prevent a collision is you.
Because of Internet lag what you see may be slightly different than what he sees.
There's only about 16 zillion threads on this subject.
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so its connection? because i have cable vs dial up i suffer? seems like crap.
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I would like to know as well.
Yesterday I had a very short rolling sissors with a p51. Just as he rolled towards me I thought I'd won. Fired everything I had. My planes nose was pointed at the top of his planes nose. I thought I was just going to pull through and rake him. A split second later, a bang, then pilot blood then tower..
I accept it as part of Ah .. but I'd like to know why. I generally ping around 250-300
..Regards
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i lose 99 % of them as well..this implies in todays hitech online world that i somehow have a better connection from my local cable company than 99% of the ah community? well Brighthouse will be happy to hear that. There has to be another reason..not buying the "faster connection" crap.
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Try violently avoiding the impact at the last second. Chances are the enemy is still goin for the shot. If thats the case odds are his side with record the hit.
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I hook up at about 26,400 on dial up. ping around 200 +- I lose rams too 90% of the time, if not 99%
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Truly amazing how everone looses 90% of collisions.
Funy thing is, what you see is what you get, it is just that the other guy didn't see the same thing. So there realy is not way to loose a collision, you just take damage from a collision 100 % of the time, just like the other guy does. Once you understand this, it will make it less frustating for you.
HiTech
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why is it then, that I seem to be saying"nice ram" vs others saying it to me then 90+% of the time? i have very rarely seen guy go down because of collision im in, i have seen it once or twice, but thats about it. am i "seeing" it because of better connect?
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The point is, any collision is your fault. It's only what you see that matters. It's calculated on your front end, it's only you that can avoid it. If you're getting into constant collisions you should work on staying a bit farther away from solid objects in the air around you. Maybe others understand that and don't bother saying "nice ram".
Yes, I've had rare collisions where the guy cut across my path in rolling scissors.... I should have anticipated & reacted. My plane hit him. I've also seen the same guy vanish in a puff though he was 30yds away in my view, also rare. The life of net gaming. But if you back off just a bit, it will happen less. Sounds to me you're just a touch too agressive and pushing in closer than necessary, cause I know you're a decent stick.
Booz
p.s. apologies for previous statement, I truly thought you were only complaining about head on rams.
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so its connection? because i have cable vs dial up i suffer? seems like crap.
Aces High reacts the same on a T3 cable as it does on a 56k.
If another plane hits yours, you die.
Having one connection over the other is not an advantage.
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Having one connection over the other is not an advantage.
so, what is it then, that my "end" see's collision and other does not all the dang time?
The point is, any collision is your fault.
sorry, but disagree with that statement, just because my end seen it, dont make it "my fault".
you should work on staying a bit farther away from solid objects in the air around you.
game be pretty boring if i did that...oh no a plane, runnnnnnn? no thanks. i fire 200-400, i dont hit much from further away. you kinda have to get close to kill stuff.
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Maybe because you're a bad pilot. :D
No, you perceive it to be 90% of the time, but I bet it's closer to 50-50. It just doesn't register with your mind when it happens the rest of the time.
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"Funy thing is, what you see is what you get, it is just that the other guy didn't see the same thing. So there realy is not way to loose a collision, you just take damage from a collision 100 % of the time, just like the other guy does. Once you understand this, it will make it less frustating for you."
SO if I take damage 100% of the time this does not make me feel better lol...i also have furballed enuff to know some guys seem to exploit this anomaly by using it to their advantage.
I actually get into collision alot do to my style of fighting in the furball...i definitely notice it when i win one and it rarely happens...also the other plane does not take the damage because his "end" didnt see it...I realize its part of the game..its just frustrating for me personaly to lose them all the the time.
EOR
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There are two ways to implement damage to both sides in collision:
1. Collision happens only if both FE's see the collision. This can result in collisions to become quite rare (due to lag), so planes can actually fly thru eachother most of the time.
2. Collision happens if either FE sees collision and damage is transferred to other plane as well. Similar to killshooter. This probably result in some whining as well, as the other player don't necessarily see collision at all but still gets the damage.
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Hmm ......
Found myself in a couple of fights that resulted in a RAM.
The other guy even said he didn't fire.
I went down.
My connect is right around 280 ping.
My connect is dialup at 37333.
Happens.
At the time I saw the ram about to happen but the angle, speed, and everything was such that I couldn't avoid it.:huh
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Yup, I find I either take catastrophic damage or none in a HO ram. If I hit a guy and he doesn't see it, I die...and vice versa. Just one of the quirks of the game.
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There seems to be some misunderstandings about lag and its effects. It does not mean that he sees the same thing you do, just a quarter to half a second later. It means that he sees a slightly different thing the whole time. What was a ram on your end may have been a miss by 150ft on his end, due to lag having the aircraft in slightly different places. That is the normal version of a ram in AH.
Even in the straight head on collision he may have jinked at the last moment on his FE and missed by mere feet, but on yours there was a collision, you go down and he takes no damage.
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Personally Ive suffered countless prop to prop collisions. Not the glancing type but prop to prop collisions, other to die and ask guys around if the other guy died too, only to hear no he's fine.
A prop to prop collision is dead on. If the other guy didnt die, what is he seeing? Id imagine if it was moving his pov 10ft from what I am seeing, we would never be able to hit eachother with bullets during a fight.
Im going to do some collisions and film them and see what each of us see, and see what the results are.
Wondering if its something totally different being figured in. Such as only one death being computed during a collision...taking the faster plane as the victim perhaps.
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Not that we are voting or anything but I say if two planes collide they are both going down. In other words, if either side "sees" it both dying would be preferable than your wing-less/tail-less hulk crashing while the other guy flies away unscathed. Not that this will not result in a different set of whines but it will remove the concept of winning or losing a collision...sorta like a King Solomon solution :D
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FiLtH,
Well, there are several ways that could work. Remember, if he is a mere 15ft off plane, above or below, he'll miss on his FE. Guns can be aimed, so he can still hit you and miss with his fighter.
In the jink at the last moment, let's look at some numbers. If you are bothing going 300mph you have a 600mph closure rate. Say it takes .250 seconds for a change in his course to go from his system to the server to you. In that time you will get 220ft closer to eachother. So, before your FE even begins to register that he has started changing direction you have closed more than 200ft. That is a quarter second that was spent gaining separation on his FE, separation that is only now just begining to show on your FE. If the combined ping time is .5 seconds you would be looking at 440ft closed before your FE began to show his change.
What this also means is that it doesn't matter who's connection is slower or faster. If you have the fast connection and start to evade he won't see it until the data makes it's way through your fast connection and then to his slow connection. Bang, he collides in that time but you pulled clear and didn't. His slow connction killed him just as surely as it would kill you if he'd been the one to avoid and you stayed the course.
Edbert,
Think through the implications of that. You take off, fly 15 minutes to reach my base and, dweeb that I am, I take off, fly one minute and intentionally ram you killing us both. I lost one minute, you lost 15 minutes. You had no way to avoid the ram as it didn't even look like I was going to hit you on your FE. Bad, bad effects on gameplay.
Conversely, if both FEs have to see the ram they will all but disapear and I will now intentionally fly through your aircraft, firing my guns from a range that I cannot possibly miss at, killing you at no risk to myself.
Due to the limitations of light speed the current implimentation is the best possible. To do better we need FTL communication, and that is not something that is going to happen soon, if ever.
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Originally posted by hitech
Truly amazing how everone looses 90% of collisions.
Funy thing is, what you see is what you get, it is just that the other guy didn't see the same thing. So there realy is not way to loose a collision, you just take damage from a collision 100 % of the time, just like the other guy does. Once you understand this, it will make it less frustating for you.
HiTech
Dont hit the plane you see.
Only you can prevent collisions on your FE.
The other guy wont take damage because odds are he didnt fly his plane into your virutal aircraft on his FE. If your computer sees you fly into his image you die. He didnt "win" the collision. He probably never saw it, so he didnt get damaged -- as far as his computer is concerned, nothing happened..
THEREFORE when you scream about a collision on 200 you're announcing to everyone that you cut it too close.
AND those times you get a kill where you'r enot quite sure how you did that much damage -- he jsut disappeared or popped or whatever -- he may not have bailed or disco'd. he may have hit you on his front end, and you "won" the collision you never saw.
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Originally posted by Edbert
Not that we are voting or anything but I say if two planes collide they are both going down. In other words, if either side "sees" it both dying would be preferable than your wing-less/tail-less hulk crashing while the other guy flies away unscathed. Not that this will not result in a different set of whines but it will remove the concept of winning or losing a collision...sorta like a King Solomon solution :D
To put what you are saying in other terms.
(This is exatly what you state you wish)
If you miss a headon fly by 50 ft because you jinked. You will still want to die, because the other player didn't jink.
Hitech
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Oh I know there'd be whines, no doubt about it, I don't think anyone can come up with a solution that wont have one side feeling cheated. Do you think the 50 foot description is accurate? I figured maybe 10 or so.
It just seems crazy that if I am trying to avoid what seems to be a head on and the other guy (apparently) is not (or sometimes you both break in the same direction), it really sucks to see his intact plane leave the scene while you are disintegrating.
Can you describe how the code determines who "wins" and who "loses" the current collision model without giving away too much?
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Edbert: As has been described many a time, there is no who wins who looses. If you missed him , you do not collide, if he missed you he dosn't collide. If he touches you, he collides, if you touch him , you collide. If you both touch eachother you both collide, if you both miss eachother you both do not collide.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Edbert
Oh I know there'd be whines, no doubt about it, I don't think anyone can come up with a solution that wont have one side feeling cheated. Do you think the 50 foot description is accurate? I figured maybe 10 or so.
It just seems crazy that if I am trying to avoid what seems to be a head on and the other guy (apparently) is not (or sometimes you both break in the same direction), it really sucks to see his intact plane leave the scene while you are disintegrating.
Can you describe how the code determines who "wins" and who "loses" the current collision model without giving away too much?
To make it easy, you always loose, and he may not have even been involved based on what he sees. It is rare that you both see a collision on your computers. To test this, get a buddy, and go to the dueling arena and try to run into each other without shooting. You might be suprised to notice how many times your buddy says, I missed, but you go spiraling down without your right wing because your at HO's. :D
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this whole "if you miss him" thing...ive had guys dive on my 6, high rate of speed, miss the shot, fly thru my plane, i got down from collision? your right, i didnt miss him, i should moved out of the way of the plane screaming thru me, of course, i nvr would thing somebody would intentionally fly through, but like has been said, he didnt see it that way. guess thats why he missed the shot. :huh my brain hurts.
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my brain hurts.
You should try smothing code in 3 time realities some time.
HiTech
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I guess we're not able to communicate then...two planes collide...but they don't...but one dies and the other doesn't...I hit him even though he wasn't really there and his ghost flew away...
:confused:
That's fine though, it has been this way forever and I've just gotten used to "losing" 95+% of the collisions (I actually do not remember ever winning one). You can see from this thread that I am not the only one who thinks this is how it works, even after my years of MA activity.
C'est La Vie..C'est La Guerre
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That's fine though, it has been this way forever and I've just gotten used to "losing" 95+% of the collisions (I actually do not remember ever winning one). You can see from this thread that I am not the only one who thinks this is how it works, even after my years of MA activity
That is because the only way to win a collision is not to collide.
Hence you never thought of it as a collision that you won.
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Maybe if more people played a game like AW before the WWW existed, with lags of .8ms on a good day, they would understand this concept :)
Gunner
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Originally posted by TracerX
...To test this, get a buddy, and go to the dueling arena and try to run into each other without shooting. You might be suprised to notice how many times your buddy says, I missed, but you go spiraling down without your right wing because your at HO's. :D
Edbert, try the above experiment and it will become clear to you. It should not be hard to have both of you collide if you both try to hit each other, but then have your buddy try to miss the collision at the last moment, and see how often you collide and he survives. Have him record what he sees, or switch rolls and then you will understand.
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Hey Edbert..Im in the same boat. We should hook up and film some stuff going nose to nose. See what each of us see. Try some slighjy off nose. Basically film what the other guy is seeing and the see the results.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Hey Edbert..Im in the same boat. We should hook up and film some stuff going nose to nose. See what each of us see. Try some slighjy off nose. Basically film what the other guy is seeing and the see the results.
That's not a bad idea...
(and apologies to Dale if I came accross as offensive)
...but I am not having collisions in a HO situation since I avoid them at all times. My collisions are usually more like a canopy-to-canopy type, or as Killnu described when I get rammed from behind (stop it hub...NOW!) by a B&Zer. Rolling scissors get me a lot too, I'll see a potential collision coming and do a hard break off to avoid while the guy pulls right into me and I'm dead while he flies off (I understand that my FE "saw" the hit part, but if you look at the flight path on film you can see who "tried" to evade and who continued the collision course).
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Edbert,
THe missing component in your thinking is that he may have seen no reason to evade as on his FE there wasn't going to be a collision. You are suggesting that he be punished for not evading something that wasn't going to happen.
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So what I need to do it go to the DA and film some guns-off collisions and determine where (close behind I presume) I need to fly in relation to my enemy so I can hit him where he isn't and start "winning" some collisions for a change. I am pretty sure that is what happens to me some of the time.
Sounds like a terrible way to play to me, but I understand there's no way to both allow collisions AND avoid someone feeling cheated by the results no matter what implementation we have. Like I said earlier, I've learned to deal with it as just another feature of the game, it happens once per tour or so, and I'm not really wrapped up in it, probably should not have joined the thread either :D
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you know edbert, you just have to not get so close to the enemies. there's a reason HT made the lazer .50's and Hizookas :D :rofl ;)
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Originally posted by Mustaine
you know edbert, you just have to not get so close to the enemies. there's a reason HT made the lazer .50's and Hizookas :D :rofl ;)
LOL, but my gunnery sucks worse than my ACM (as if that were possible)!
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these explanations are fine....why not just turn off the collision model altogether? It seems there are major issues with it..hitech you basicaly proved that the current model due to various reasons is unfair to both parties. Speaking of which...if collisions arent seen the same on both ends..how can bullets even score hits regularly? I beleive the code "estimates" where the plane will be right? (if so is this modeled in collisions?)
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Yes, do away with the collisions.
I just want to fly inside the enemy b24s to shoot them down, their guns cant reach me there :)))).
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how can bullets even score hits regularly? I beleive the code "estimates" where the plane will be right? (if so is this modeled in collisions?)
This ain't a frickin IQ test people.
It's all about what you see on your computer.
If you are firing your guns and they hit the enemy on your screen, it's going to send info to your target telling him he's been hit.
However, since the planes might not be in the very exact position in the air on either computer, a collision is only given to the person who sees it.
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Originally posted by hitech
You should try smothing code in 3 time realities some time.
HiTech
uh...what?
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Originally posted by Donzo
uh...what?
time 1: user client
time 2: enemy client (planes other than yours)
time 3: server time for logging events
try to sync all of them up with varying times of packet arrival
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So what I need to do it go to the DA and film some guns-off collisions and determine where (close behind I presume) I need to fly in relation to my enemy so I can hit him where he isn't and start "winning" some collisions for a change.
In a tail chase situation, it would be "Close ahead" of the enemy.
2nd every enemy would have a slightly different lag. So diffent spot for everyone.
3rd distance would change based on how fast you are both flying.
So it is technicly possible to do, but if you can get to that position, it would be much easyier to get behind them and kill them.
HiTech
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Let me start by saying that I do believe the explanation given by HT. The thing I don't understand is why am I the one seeing the colision 90% of the time? I understand that the other guy did not see it. My question is why am I seeing it most of the time and he does not. It is really frustrating some times. Couple of nights ago I found my self in a 3 on 1 vs a LA, TYFF, and a Yack. The Tyff and Yack went down fast but the lala was stuck on my 6. However, it turned out he was out of ammo so he kept trying to ram me. Eventually he succeded and I lost a wing but he flew away. Why is it that the guy that tried to ram me did not see the colision and me that was trying to avoid it see it? This is what I dont understand.
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My question is why am I seeing it most of the time and he does not
How do you know this is the case?
If we are talking about head on passes, it is simply that you are not breaking off in time, like most people do.
One thing I have been wanting to put in the host is to send a text message when someone collides with you, so you then would know when it happens. I believe this would stop the perception where everone belives they are the one who always dies in a collision.
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Originally posted by hitech
How do you know this is the case?
If we are talking about head on passes, it is simply that you are not breaking off in time, like most people do.
One thing I have been wanting to put in the host is to send a text message when someone collides with you, so you then would know when it happens. I believe this would stop the perception where everone belives they are the one who always dies in a collision.
cool idea, would it state this if you took damage only, or if they took damage, or both?
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Dedalos,
that has been answered already several times on this thread.
At his FE he flew just slightly in front of you and missed you, but because of the time it takes for his plane's position to get to you computer, on your screen you see it as a collision.
If he really tried to collide with you on his screen, he would be hurt, and on your screen he would miss you slightly at your 6 side.
So, you are basically asking: "Why am I getting too close to the enemy plane 90% of the time and why can others evade the close situations better than I?" The answer is not in the coad... but between your stick and your chair ;)
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Originally posted by hitech
How do you know this is the case?
If we are talking about head on passes, it is simply that you are not breaking off in time, like most people do.
One thing I have been wanting to put in the host is to send a text message when someone collides with you, so you then would know when it happens. I believe this would stop the perception where everone belives they are the one who always dies in a collision.
All in all, if you collide with another airplane it is your fault. Period.
You can not be HO'd unless you participate. You can be hit with a deflection shot, but to HO, you have to fly right at the bogey. If you don't fly straight at the bogey, you won't collide. Problem solved.
I hardly every collide with a bogey unless I am diving down on it, and misjudge when to pull up.
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Originally posted by hitech
One thing I have been wanting to put in the host is to send a text message when someone collides with you, so you then would know when it happens.
This would be great. Just a message like " You killed NN (collision)"
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Ok Mr. I COAD,
Fix this problem now; I want to be able to collide with anyone I want too at any time,
So fix your smoothing coad to allow this to happen, do not give me any excuses about different locations and network lag etc…what I see on my FE is what everyone else should see, now fix your damn coad...
You PUTZ!
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Can't you put in a switch so i can see all realities for all aircraft in an area of 10miles?
That would be if 10 aircraft are in that area i can see where every of that 10 aircraft is on every frontend. This way i know exactly where they are and how i should fly so all the others dont get me.
Oh wait... that means every frontend displays 100 aircraft, right? all 10 positions for all 10 aircraft. Thats not a problem with an half effective coad, im sure you can do it.
Oh wait...then there is 100 aircraft positions on every one of the 10 front ends, can you then show faded out the alternate positions everyone sees on his frontends... that would make 900 additional alternated positions, im sure some of them overlap so you could optimize that a bit.... showing something like 800 aircraft shouldnt be a problem.
Oh wait... thats 800 aircraft................
Oh wait.... thats 6000 .....
oh wait... thats 50000 aircraft....
Ah well since there is so many aircraft on the screen the whole screen is coverd. Then there are at least 10 aircraft in front of me facing away from me, so i have a chance to at least hit someone. Maybe dont display the aircraft that face their guns my way.
Hell, can i just have one aircraft per player at a convinient position in front of my guns? I dont care if i get shot down in another reality as long as i get to shoot down those 10 first.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
All in all, if you collide with another airplane it is your fault. Period.
You can not be HO'd unless you participate. You can be hit with a deflection shot, but to HO, you have to fly right at the bogey. If you don't fly straight at the bogey, you won't collide. Problem solved.
I hardly every collide with a bogey unless I am diving down on it, and misjudge when to pull up.
Hmmm..........
afraid I have to disagree somewhat here.
Twice now I've been in a NON-HO collision in one I lost a wing to the other guy (was a rolling turn fight) diving in from overhead. In the other the guy blew up but on my fe he should have flown right by ( dove in on my 6 and rammed me from behind???).
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Wrag, did you even bother to read the post?
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OK...did some test runs lastnight. I have films for each, but havent posted them. I can if someone wants them.
The guy I tested with lives close by, and we share the same ISP.
Test 1: We both took a spit. We went close to nose on. Both took damage.
Test 2: He took a6m, I took P47. We rammed, and he took most of the damage. I expected this with the p47 being tougher.
Test 3: I took A6m he took P47. I believe we had a similar test here Id have to check.
Test 4: This was the most interesting test. We each took a P47 and tried to ram. BUT...at about 200 away I yanked my stick. I was very close when I did this. In the blur I heard a collision. The other guy who stayed straight was a mess. I had no damage.
In the film it shows me jerk up over his nose at the last second. From the cockpit it looks like we would have hit. The question I have is could a guy manipulate the ram to his advantage?
Remember these are closely matched pcs. What about the guy across the pond? Now I need to find a guy I collide with and die but he lives, and repeat ramming to see if his win is consistant.
Does the guy who tries to move at the last second tend to win the ram?
More testing will follow.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
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The question I have is could a guy manipulate the ram to his advantage?
Remember these are closely matched pcs. What about the guy across the pond? Now I need to find a guy I collide with and die but he lives, and repeat ramming to see if his win is consistant.
Does the guy who tries to move at the last second tend to win the ram?
More testing will follow.
1. how would you manipulate this? if the other guy also pulls off your projected path he doesnt have a ram either. So if you avoid the ram on your front end you get no damage, sounds reasonable to me?
2. Closely matched pcs... as long as you fly in the ma the data goes from your pc to htc back to the other pc. No matter if your in one room or at the other end of the world. What matters is how long it takes to htc for each of you.
3. the guy who moves at the last second does not "win". The guy that does not move and hits the other plane looses. So when you avoid it in time to have your birds not collide on your side, your ok. When the other guy avoids hes ok too.
4. If you test long enough you might find a way to exploid it, but why would you want an exploid? To post it so everyone does it? Or to use it secretly to get an advantage? I dont beleave so.
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This is my reason.
1. I approach an enemy.
2. He turns toward me.
3. At this point I may or may not attempt to avoid a headon attack.
4. If I chose to...and he choses to, and we rapidly close and hit...what small bit of input by him at the last minute saves him when I die. Thats all I really want to know.
Im not a fan of collision myself. I just got my buds film of test four. My film shows me jerking unnaturally up and over him with like 2 ft to spare. His film shows me coming straight at him. No evasive move at all. While most of the tests we showed close to the same stuff, this one test we saw 2 different merges. I attribute it to the last second yank on the stick. The time between him seeing the emminent collision, to the time it took me to jerk the stick and then show that way, was too narrow of a window.
If there is something to this..I the type of person who'd rather expose for all to be aware of, than be the "Secret ,secret..Ive got a secret" type.
As far as both trying to avoid..these will be the next few tests I do.
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FiLTH: Not a Secret. It is exatly what I Have been describing. And is exatly the resone why the system functions as it does.
You evaded the head on and did so succesfully therefore you didn't collide.
Your oponent didn't evaded and hence collided.
HiTech
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The nose-to-nose or tail-chase scenarios are pretty easy to understand and avoid for me. In the case of a rolling-scissors or one guy turning clockwise and the other counter-clockwise though...
I see him coming through his turn pulling for a gun solution through my "up" view, I am doing the exact same. It appears on my FE that we are both turning in about the same rate and the same circumference. As I continue pulling for a shot I realize that in order to get the shot I risk a collision, it stands to reason that during the same 3-5 second maneuver he is seeing APPROXIMATELY the same thing. So when I begin to level my wings to remove myself from the former plane of the turn and break upwards slightly (in avoidance) he follows the move to strike my 9:00 with his nose and I die. He saw my evasive enough to compensate, he may not have been TRYING to ram me but while I saw his prop hit my wingtip what would you guess he saw? Did he "think" he was going to cut in front of me and accidentally hit my ghost? Why would he compensate his path to fly in front of me and give me a shot from what he saw on his FE?
As I said, for myself the HO collision is not an issue, it is the relatively slow speed high angle almost 90 degree collisions. I'm just trying to understand what the enemy sees so i can better avoid the ram, if that causes his FE to see the ram instead so much the better :D
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Originally posted by hitech
How do you know this is the case?
If we are talking about head on passes, it is simply that you are not breaking off in time, like most people do.
One thing I have been wanting to put in the host is to send a text message when someone collides with you, so you then would know when it happens. I believe this would stop the perception where everone belives they are the one who always dies in a collision.
Because I lose wing and he flies away?
We are not talking about head on passes. We are talking about close figting where we get a little too close, or I guess I do?
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Originally posted by BlauK
Dedalos,
that has been answered already several times on this thread.
At his FE he flew just slightly in front of you and missed you, but because of the time it takes for his plane's position to get to you computer, on your screen you see it as a collision.
If he really tried to collide with you on his screen, he would be hurt, and on your screen he would miss you slightly at your 6 side.
So, you are basically asking: "Why am I getting too close to the enemy plane 90% of the time and why can others evade the close situations better than I?" The answer is not in the coad... but between your stick and your chair ;)
Do you have any idea how many rules HT would aply to me if I responded to this? ;) I guess I LL head to the TA so I can learn how to evade better than the others :rolleyes:
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dedalos, I did not intend any insult or such, honestly. I can easily understand that some people or perhaps their more aggressive fighting style, close distance scissors etc. coul dmake them collide more often than others.
My pooint was simply that you will only get a collision whne you see it on your own screen. It should therefore be much easier for you to avoid the collision than for you ropponent to intentionally estimate a course which would make him collide with you on your screen.
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Originally posted by BlauK
dedalos, I did not intend any insult or such, honestly. I can easily understand that some people or perhaps their more aggressive fighting style, close distance scissors etc. coul dmake them collide more often than others.
My pooint was simply that you will only get a collision whne you see it on your own screen. It should therefore be much easier for you to avoid the collision than for you ropponent to intentionally estimate a course which would make him collide with you on your screen.
:D I was only kidding man.
:aok
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I hear ya Hitech, but its still gnawing at me. The collision he experienced didnt exist. I pulled up clearing him. Why did his end see it as a collision? Does it take that much time to compute the last second evasion, that he is dead before it can actually give the correction? Regardless what he saw...the collision didnt happen is what Im getting at. Is there nothing that can be done in the programming..that has to prove a collision on both ends for it to actually occur?
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The collision he experienced didnt exist
Thats what you need to get over. The collision realy did happen in his reality. And his reality is all he can react to and do somthing about. It is realy no different than shooting bullets , in the shooters reality bullets hit the plane. From the person being shot at, the bullets missed him.
All this is simply because of net lag, you see the person very close to his acctual flight path, but it is shown at a later time. So if you are standing still you don't percieve any difference, but once you start moving , realative to you , he is in a different place and same time VS the correct place, at a different time.
Checking them both could be done, but that would only ever happen on head ons. Therefore it would promote boaring right on threw the other guy wrather than evade like you should on a head on. Instead of giving the advantage to the guy who broke off you would give the advantage to the guy who didn't. Hence no one would want to evade the head on pass .
2nd on anthing but a head on both clients would never collide at the same time, hence when doing a diving attack you would just fly right on threw someone. I.E. would just be like not having a collisions.
Right now the system is both fair, and promotes proper play.
HiTech
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Originally posted by BlauK
My pooint was simply that you will only get a collision whne you see it on your own screen.
i beg to differ, i have seen and others also seen, collisions where on our FE/screen we missed the enemy plane and still recieved collision damage.
i had a p51 pass on my left clearly missing my plane yet recieved collision damage on right side (wing gone), not shots fired.
ive visually seen on my screen enemy planes miss mine and still i get collision damage/death.
i have personally seen on my screen fly straight through ded center of planes and nothing happened to either plane, or the enemy plane blew up from a collision. but i recieved no damage even though i visually saw me fly through the plane.
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Ok thanks for the replies Hitech.
Whels Ive seen that too, but usually the ram is close enough to call it a ram. But I have seen guys blow up for no apparant reason on my end. Looks like our POV is at the mercy of netlag.
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whels,
I have never seen such myself. If you have any films of such, please let HT have a look.
The closest to such event I have seen has always involved the other guy shooting at me even though I have not noticed the shooting.... lag being the issue also there. Ever been killed, gone back to tower and heard ping ping ping (bullet hits) there for some seconds? With a single 30mm head shot it might appear like a collisison... I suppose.
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i like the new messages, although, seems kinda odd, dora dives thru my 6, and i get message(and damage) that i rammed myself. :D i know, my FE saw it, but kinda weird ramming myself.
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Originally posted by whels
i beg to differ, i have seen and others also seen, collisions where on our FE/screen we missed the enemy plane and still recieved collision damage.
i had a p51 pass on my left clearly missing my plane yet recieved collision damage on right side (wing gone), not shots fired.
I think HT would like to see film of collision damage incurred when no collision took place..................
Collisions can be switched off by an arena setting.............
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I know! Can we get some turn signals installed on our planes?
Or some air signs that say.. "stay to your right"
"no passing"
"merge"
"one way air space"
" slower traffic keep right".
"Dips ahead"
"yield"
" no ho section"
"destruction zone"
"no whiner zone"
"speed limit 350 mph"
" yak crossing"
"niki parking only"
"No running zone"
"No chasing zone"
"bomb littering prohibited"
"air side sobriety check point ahead" <---- really needed on weekends and holidays. :p
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Ok, I think Ive got this ram thing hammered out.
It comes down to this, a collision only happens if you see it on your FE period.
There are two distinct ways to prevent the ram. One takes a bit of time and you will pay for it later, the other is just plain common sense. See if you agree.
1. CLOSE YOUR EYES when a ram becomes unavoidable. If you dont see it, it didnt happen.
2. Drink enough Irish Whiskey to make you blind. Youll pay for it in the morning but you prolly wont actually see the ram, therefore it didnt happen.
Now that Ive got this figured out, can I get some help avoiding the "SYSTEM: You have just AUGERED AGAIN" messege.
Seems to me that even if my eyes are closed, I still hit the ground.
Its become my most proficient move lately.