Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: beet1e on August 29, 2005, 02:41:52 PM
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This is just a question/debate for the Euros who have the Euro currency. All others - nothing to see here - move along!
Sounds like Germany has been suffering badly - I heard that unemployment has reached 11.6% (can't be arsed to post a link). Some Germans being interviewed on the radio are saying that whereas they used to be affluent, now they're struggling to buy necessities. And Mercedes Benz has been suffering - others have said on this board that the quality/reliability is slipping - I guess they're feeling the pinch too.
The whole problem seems to have been the damned Euro - countries stuck with it can't vary the value of their currency or vary interest rates to kick start their economy. Some small respite occurred recently when the Euro itself went down in value, but it's not enough.
Italy too is in the deep doo-doo - they used to be able to devalue their way out of trouble when the economy was sliding - not an option now. I read that a clothes store was doing record business because it had decided to accept old lire notes as payment!
The euro - surely its days are numbered?
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Speaking for my family in Italy I can say that they are fed up with the euro too.
There is so much prestige in the Euro tho that more countries will join it than leave it. I cant really see how anyone can leave it actually.
Some people want the euro here, but im doing my part by voting them out of office in a couple of weeks.
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no one know for sure ... it was supposed to be born dead.
I think it's a bit alive for a dead :)
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2 Weeks....
:D
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Truly i hate the euro i want my old solid guilder back.
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If you take an economics class, you learn that all countries benefit from having a different currency per country.
The way trading works is that if your currency isn't worth so much, foreign trading and importing will soon make it worth more. (Don't ask me how, It's been awhile since I took the class).
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As long as all the European monarchies... here's for hoping :D
Daniel
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Staga must be devastated!
Originally posted by Staga
Yeah it's all good; even if USD has lost 30% of its value in 1,5 years... Guess it's time to say bye to USD as a world-wide currency and welcome the new king; € :)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/xchangerates.gif)
(source X-Rates.com)
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€ still the strongest currency in the world, i wouldn panic beetle :)
i like the €uro, i was just 3 weeks on holiday paragliding in italy & austria,
its damn good that you dont have to own the former iltalian lire and the austrian shilling anymore and my old Deutsch-mark. Just pay everything with one currency, its sooo much easyer today.
I dont want go back.
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Nearly all wold currencies are declining to some extent, primarilly due to the subsidization of the Yuan.
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"Euros - how long can the Euro currency last? "
Two weeks:lol
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Originally posted by AWMac
2 Weeks....
:D
Bah! ya beat me to it!
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Beetle, it's not the euro's fault, at least speaking for Germany. The problem you're referring to dates back much further.
Every year since 1990 money worth about 4% of Germany's GDP is transferred from the west to the former socialist east germany. The idea behind the money transfer being that some kind of governmental aid was needed to help the east german industries in succesfully making the change from socialistic planned economy to capitalism.
It didn't work at all, unemployment in east germany is enormously high (in some regions at about 20%), most former industries are gone, young people are leaving the region by the hundred thousands... but thanks to the roughly 1500 billion (!) Euro transferred in the last 15 years east germany has the densest system of longrange bicycle tracks in europe or the world or whatever. The money has been wasted... east germany is nice by now, most of the negative visual influences of 40 years of socialism are gone, but that didn't create jobs.
Basically, for 15 years this country's economy hasn't grown, Germany is living off it's substance. 4% of the GDP lost every year is more than the annual growth of 1 to maybe 2% in good times (not right now).
That's the short version... I think I should add that I don't think the german reunion was wrong, not at all. But our politicians messed it up economically.
It's not the euro's fault, even though certain groups of people here love blaming it for our problems.
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BUt... but.. isn't Europe wanting to become the united states of Europe?
europe is too small to be so territorial - given time the concept of a united europe is sound, it's already happening - stay the course.
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It's not really the euro's fault.
Several countries are doing just fine with it, while some are loosing for not joining the euro.
Germany already had it coming without euro, so did Italy.
It is just a convenient excuse.
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Originally posted by Shane
BUt... but.. isn't Europe wanting to become the united states of Europe?
Unfortunately there are many politicos and beureaucrats who think so.
Maybe one day in the far future it might be possible but not now, besides diversity is far more interesting.
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Originally posted by Pei
Unfortunately there are many politicos and beureaucrats who think so.
Maybe one day in the far future it might be possible but not now, besides diversity is far more interesting.
Resistance is futile
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Originally posted by Pei
Unfortunately there are many politicos and beureaucrats who think so.
Maybe one day in the far future it might be possible but not now, besides diversity is far more interesting.
America's pretty diverse. The regions have very distinct character, yet the underlying foundation is solidly homogenous.
Once you euros learn how to live with each other, you'll only become better for it.
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Another beet1e Euro thread.. , you are a little bit target fixated, aren't you? :D
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Shane, I don't think there'll ever be a United States of Europe. No one around here would want that either.
Also, having been to the US quite regularly in the past I think I can safely say that even though there are in fact some distinctive regional differences between some of the US States, they are nothing compared to the cultural differences between countries like, say Finland and Italy, both of which are members of the EU.
Now add in language differences, how would you unite 25 countries with almost as many differenct languages, what would be the official language? How would you determine which it'd be?
English, because we're all learning it in school? German, because it's spoken by the largest percentage of EU citizens (germany is the biggest country in the EU, additionally german is official language in austria). French... because, well the French insist on it?
Don't even get me started on differences in governmental systems. Germany is a federal republic, France is very much centralized. How do you blend those?
These are barriers that can't be overcome in a few years. I'm all for the european free trade zone. I'm all for being able to travel from spain to estonia or malta to finland without having to show my passport once. European defense politics, all for it.
But uniting 25 totally different countries.. not possible in the next 25 years at least. Probably never.
Oh, almost forgot about that: No one in europe would want the european football championship every fourth year to be replaced by some artificial european league that'd surely be established once we're all united.
That alone makes a united states of europe totally impossible. :)
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Originally posted by Redwing
Beetle, it's not the euro's fault, at least speaking for Germany. The problem you're referring to dates back much further.
Agreed. But what about countries like Italy? As I said before, they used to be able to devalue their way out of trouble. Britain did the same thing in 1967 (14.3%) and, to keep the tourism trade alive, Spain immediately devalued the peseta by 14.6%. These measures are no longer options.
Of course, it's nice only having to have one other currency for going around Europe. And I'm sure that trade is easier - no more bank charges for changing large amounts of one currency into another.
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I will always be dutch before i start feeling european.
U americans want it to be easy targetted under one label.
Europe is a economical bond of independant different cultures countrys etc.
all countrys mostly have different habits and language etc.
forget it
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And so u americans always keep making the same fault by pointing denmark on the map and say its belgium.
making it all one colour and say its europe is just culture barbaric.
:rolleyes: :huh
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Personally, I'm wondering how long until we start seeing it in the US. (you laugh...)
Also, I don't think the Euro is the reason of economic fall in some European countries. Yes, some countries had issues before the conversion of the Euro, but another thing that's hurting the affluent countries is today's globalizing markets. To have a true "global" market, basically economies have to come to a relative equalibrium, hurting the rich, helping the poor (countries, not people). Add to that that GLOBALLY economies are having trouble, and it really has nothing to do with the Euro, cultural wishes aside. =)
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Dunno, I'm amurrican, and I've lived for more than a month (in many cases, much more than month -- I say more than a month 'cos I've only lived about 2 months in Denmark and Belgium, so I have trouble distinguishing them on the map) in 7 member states of the EU. I've spent time in 14 of the 25 member countries (all but 3 of those I haven't been to are the new states).
And frankly, the Euro strikes me as a silly idea cooked up by corporate interests to make Europe compete with the United States on a global level. The various member states have very different economies, and very different aims, meanwhile Brussels seems to cook up some impressive bureaucratic wastes that would make members of the Bush administration blush. And while everyone was trying to be the next US economically, China snuck in the back door. The only benefit the Euro has brought has been the need not to change currencies between those countries. Of course, once in those countries, things seem to cost a lot more than what they used to.
Then again, as someone who's paid in a currency that's being inflated so that it gets a good conversion rate to the Euro, and in a country where EU money gets cheerfully funnelled for all kinds of silly projects, I personally don't mind that much. I'm just sayin'
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All your currency are belong to us!!!
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The Euro is not going to go anytime soon. Mine seem to but that's another story!
Germany's economic problems were there before the Euro and will remain until they get the act together on their economy. If Mercedes has quality problems then blame the management and workforce not the currency. Blaming the Euro is nonsense. Italy has similar problems. But they have been scapegoating the Euro all along. As long as both countries refuse to face the facts about their economies nothing will change.
The fact is that for the most part in the countries that use it. The Euro is working just fine. The fact that the Euro is strong is as much to do with the fact the Dollar is weak than anything else. Sterling is strong against the Dollar too. Is that damaging the British economy?
In fact, Beetle isn't that what this issue really about? The whole anti Euro thing in Britain is less to do with economic issues than nationalism. Loss of soverignty and national identity with the demise of the good old pound sterling etc. This is frequently predicted if Britain joins the Euro. But oddly enough the French are still French the Greeks still Greek and the Germans still have no sense of humour. Only the British, it seems will lose their national identity.
So the anti Euro faction in Britain are constantly looking for signs of the demise of the Euro. In fact the actual term Euro is interchangeable here. Euro meaning European and Euro the currency. The Euro skeptics in Britain like neither.
Like it or not Beetle, Britain will join the Euro in due course. It will be a non issue except for the rugged few who hate all things perceived to be foreign. Maybe when King Charles the third's face starts to appear on banknotes the time will be right. :lol
I'm afraid Sterling's days are numbered not the Euro.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
In fact, Beetle isn't that what this issue really about? The whole anti Euro thing in Britain is less to do with economic issues than nationalism. Loss of soverignty and national identity with the demise of the good old pound sterling etc.
No, I don't agree. I couldn't give a horse's arse what currency we have here - be it sterling, euros, US$, plastic tiddly-wink counters or monopoly money. Sovereignty is not the issue AFAIC. And I would even be in favour of the euro single currency - if it would work. But in the past, Europe's economies have been able to address difficulties by varying interest rates or even devaluing their local currency.
It's ridiculous for anyone to say that economic conditions in say Greece are the same as those in Ireland, or that the Italian economy is the same as the Finnish economy. All are different, and those which are booming need to raise interest rates, while those struggling need to lower them. With the "one size fits all" Euro, such measures are impossible.
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love it,or hate it the euro is here to stay.:aok
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Originally posted by Edbert
Nearly all wold currencies are declining to some extent, primarilly due to the subsidization of the Yuan.
Not possible for all currencies to decline. They are relative to each other. If one is weaker, then by definition another has to be stronger.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Staga must be devastated!
I'm speachless; your wit and intelligence are stunning :)
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€uro is the best thing that has came from the EU. Gotta love the convinience. There's really nothing wrong with it from my POV. I can't even imagine what this country would be like without the EU. 10 times worse socialist hell hole most likely, something like Norway, but without oil.
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Originally posted by scott123
love it,or hate it the euro is here to stay.:aok
Ditto.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
U americans want it to be easy targetted under one label.
This American could not possibly be more indifferent.
:rolleyes: Generlaties suck.
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Originally posted by BigGun
Not possible for all currencies to decline. They are relative to each other. If one is weaker, then by definition another has to be stronger.
Agreed 100%, and it is the Yuan which is gaining strength at a rate above and beyond all others.
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(http://x-plane.org/home/RedDog/worldusa.gif)
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Originally posted by beet1e
It's ridiculous for anyone to say that economic conditions in say Greece are the same as those in Ireland, or that the Italian economy is the same as the Finnish economy. All are different, and those which are booming need to raise interest rates, while those struggling need to lower them. With the "one size fits all" Euro, such measures are impossible.
That is exactly what the EU is all about. Creating a Europe where the economic conditions in say Greece ARE the same (or close to) those in Ireland and everywhere else in the EU. Do you think the economic conditions in say Alabama are the same as in California? Still the USA is one federated union with one single currency and interest rate. America did it, why can't you?
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Originally posted by FalconSix
That is exactly what the EU is all about. Creating a Europe where the economic conditions in say Greece ARE the same (or close to) those in Ireland and everywhere else in the EU. Do you think the economic conditions in say Alabama are the same as in California? Still the USA is one federated union with one single currency and interest rate. America did it, why can't you?
Indeed, America did it - but with a federal government collecting federal taxes and making federal grants, and everyone speaking the same language. America formed the 50-state union over a period from 1776-1959. That's more than 180 years in which the country had time to assimilate the new states. (AZ was the last mainland state in 1912) Compare that to the EU, which last year had ten countries join on the same day!!!
And no, you're never going to make a Greek out of an Irishman, or a Paddy out of a Greek. Most EU countries have their own language - that in itself means that people are far less likely to migrate from say Greece to Ireland than from Pennsylvania to California.
I myself have considered setting up home in France or Spain or Italy. The #2 obstacle would be the language difficulty. OK, I think I could learn any of those languages with a good effort, but it's doubtful that anyone doing that could expect simply to blend in with the indigenous population. And that's the #1 obstacle. I had an apartment in Antibes, France, and believe me - I know what I'm talking about.
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Originally posted by beet1e
This is just a question/debate for the Euros who have the Euro currency. All others - nothing to see here - move along!
Sounds like Germany has been suffering badly - I heard that unemployment has reached 11.6% (can't be arsed to post a link). Some Germans being interviewed on the radio are saying that whereas they used to be affluent, now they're struggling to buy necessities. And Mercedes Benz has been suffering - others have said on this board that the quality/reliability is slipping - I guess they're feeling the pinch too.
I really have to disagree here. The problems are in my opinion:
1. The reunification did cost... still not payed AND lots of the state property was transfered to private property, giving Germany a loss of billions of euro and giving property/ value to companies and buisnessman.
2. eastern germany had a "hidden" unemployment potential, the "vollbeschäftigung" (work for everyone): A lot of people on jobs were not working full or working on jobs that didnt create value. While its good when everyone has work it is not economical in capitalism.
3. Calculation changed, giving 1 to 3 percent more unemployed in the numbers than before... before they were getting social aid, now they are unemployed.
4.Big Companies mismanagemented to gain max profit in short terms. That wont work out long term but gives best short term value of the shares. Instead of sound product planing, new inventions, finding new markets, educating their workforce and using what they have they just kicked off guys and showed a short term profit. Hell... smaller company wont give more profit in the long term. Every worker can generate profit for the company, it can not be profitable to kick em out. Only if you cant manage them.
5. daimler made management mistakes, buying japanise companies and selling them again with huge losses, producing cars that are totally useless and not what the market needed etc. Now they clear up their bilances by kicking off workers and producing somewhere else. NOT long term effective, none will want mercedes not produced in germany, due to bad management they sell to few cars and now pretend to have better profit with less workers. NOT bigger company value, which would be a long term goal.
6. Polititians are going totally nuts. Most stuff is done like a show to impress people, trying to make the opposing political party bad. If that continues this kind of democracy will ruin europe, not the euro. More or less similar in spain,germany,france,italy: no one follows a strategy to solve the problems, all promise jobs for everyone and eternal wealth for all. 20 more years of this and europe is totally out of shape. At the moment i dont feel who could be made guilty at the crash, but we will be at the same point as 1935... ah well, maybe its in 30 years....
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Screw the Euro I have a friend setting me up with some very cheap Iraqi currency... once the oil flows I'm gonna BUY THE USA!
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For me the transition to Euro has been pretty good. I was rather dubious about using the Euro but it has actually been much better than I ever expected. The fact that you can use it in neighbouring countries is a big plus.
However, apart from German's having to pay for the former East Germany in a form of tax (luckily I earn tax free!!), I think the main gripe against the Euro was that when Germany moved to the Euro prices were often rounded up making many things more expensive. BUT when compared to the UK I find Germany sooooo much cheaper and yet I supposedly live in the most expensive area of Germany (Munich). If the UK ever did join the Euro then I could see the same thing happening there; prices would be rounded up making the UK even more expensive. The more I live in Germany the more I realise that everyone in the UK is being ripped off bigtime. It's such a shame and I just wish the Government would sort it out but obviously they're happy with the artificial inflation compared to the rest of Europe.
PS Grüß Gott Schutt!! :)