Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on June 27, 2000, 09:29:00 AM
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Good article, IMO:
PHYLLIS SCHLAFLY REPORT -- June 2000 (Part 1)
> >
> > The Media Campaign Against Gun Ownership
> >
> > The Million Moms March was not a grassroots uprising of mothers
> > but a slick media event orchestrated by Bill Clinton's public relations
> > experts and led by Donna Dees-Thomases, who worked for
> > Democrats in Congress, contributed to Hillary Clinton's campaign
> > and is the sister-in-law of Susan Thomases, a top Clinton adviser.
> > The contrived nature of the campaign was evident in the cozy
> > meeting with the President, extravagant television coverage,
> > multi-page color "ads" disguised as "news" in national magazines,
> > and the distribution of color brochures in airports.
> >
> > The anti-gun moms pretended to model themselves on Mothers
> > Against Drunk Driving, but those mothers are smart enough to go
> > after criminally reckless drivers, not against automobiles. The
> > anti-gun moms either aren't smart enough to see that kids are killed
> > by criminals not by guns, or they are just trying to elect Al Gore. The
> > march was such phony political theater. The Associated Press
> > reported that Bill Clinton had "tears in his eyes" when he talked to
> > the Marching Moms (who, of course, didn't number anywhere near a
> > million).
> >
> > The march was advertised as growing out of mothers' outrage at the
> > large number of children who are killed by guns. But Professor John
> > Lott Jr., senior research scholar at the Yale University Law School
> > and author of More Guns, Less Crime, has exposed the blatant lies
> > in the statistics bandied about by the President and the press, such
> > as the oft-repeated lie that 12 children a day die from guns. Most of
> > the "children" in the statistics on kids killed by gunfire are 17-, 18-
> > and 19-year-olds killed in gang or drug wars in high-crime urban
> > areas. It is unrealistic to think that trigger locks or waiting periods
> > would have any effect in stopping those homicides.
> >
> > The Centers for Disease Control could identify only 21 children under
> > age 15 dying from accidental handgun deaths in 1996. But 40
> > children under the age of five drown in water buckets every year and
> > another 80 drown in bathtubs. Are we going to demand that water
> > buckets and bathtubs be locked up and fitted with safety catches?
> > Many more children are killed or injured every year from cars,
> > drowning, fires, and even toys than from guns. The risk of a child
> > drowning in a swimming pool is 100 times greater than the risk of
> > dying from a firearm-related accident.
> >
> > The Columbine killers violated at least 17 state and federal
> > gun-control laws among the 20,000 gun-control laws on the books
> > today. Does anyone think that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold would
> > not have known how to unlock their guns, or that a waiting period
> > would have made a difference in the murders they planned months in
> > advance? None of the proposals for trigger locks, waiting periods or
> > gun-show restrictions would have stopped Harris and Klebold.
> >
> > The only policy that effectively reduces public shootings is
> > right-to-carry laws. Allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns
> > reduces violent crime. In the 31 states that have passed right-to-carry
> > laws since the mid-1980s, the number of multiple-victim public
> > shootings and other violent crimes has dropped dramatically.
> > Murders fell by 7.65%, rapes by 5.2%, aggravated assaults by 7%,
> > and robberies by 3%. On the average, murder rates in states without
> > concealed-carry laws are 127% higher than in states having the
> > broadest carry laws.
> >
> > The United States has a population of 270,000,000, and 600,000 to
> > 750,000 people are in law enforcement. It is not believable that each
> > law enforcement officer can protect 360 to 450 people from violent
> > criminals or answer every 911 call before the criminal fires a gun.
> >
> > The sheer number of guns and gun owners in America makes gun
> > control far more unrealistic than Prohibition. At least 80 million
> > Americans own about 250 million guns, and about 99% of
> > gun-owners obviously handle their guns responsibly or we would have
> > many more accidents.
> >
> > The marching moms say they want handguns registered and
> > handgun owners licensed similarly to what is required for
> > automobiles. But registering cars doesn't make kids any safer, and
> > many other methods are obviously better at improving safety, such
> > as safety instruction itself.
> >
> > Using automobiles as an analogy doesn't help the marching moms'
> > argument, anyway, because it invites us to put gun safety courses in
> > schools like driver's ed.
> >
> > It's time for Americans to separate truth from propaganda in news
> > coverage about guns. Under the principle that "if it bleeds it leads,"
> > television redundantly reports on guns used to kill, but censors out
> > the many incidents of successful defensive use of guns to disarm
> > criminals and protect law-abiding citizens from becoming victims.
> >
> > Guns are used to save lives almost five times as often as to commit
> > crimes. Guns are used 430,000 times a year to commit crimes, but
> > 2,000,000 to 2,500,000 times a year in self-defense to prevent
> > deaths, rapes, assaults and other serious injuries. In 98% of the
> > situations, the victim just brandished a gun, and in only 2% of the
> > cases was the gun actually fired, usually just as a warning. But when
> > was the last time you saw a news story about someone successfully
> > using a gun in self-defense?
> >
> > Gun control advocates refuse to make a risk-benefit analysis,
> > balancing the good guns do against the harm. Instead, they use
> > emotion and lies to plead their cause.
> >
> > All scientific studies show that restrictive gun laws are more
> > dangerous than guns. Crime is reduced by putting guns in the hands
> > of law-abiding citizens. Guns are the safest and most effective means
> > of resisting violent criminal attack. Areas that increase gun ownership
> > have lower crime rates than other areas. Even those who do not own
> > a gun are safer because the criminal fears that his next victim might
> > have the power to defend himself.
> >
> > By definition, laws will be obeyed only by the law abiding. If we
> > disarm those likely to obey the law, gun restrictions will encourage
> > crime rather than prevent it. As Professor Lott warns: "Despite good
> > intentions, gun-control advocates are going to end up risking more
> > lives than they're going to save."
> >
> > The Lies Behind Gun Control
> >
> > "We need more gun regulations." False. There is no academic
> > evidence that gun regulations prevent crime and plenty of evidence
> > that they encourage crime. It stands to reason that, if we disarm
> > those likely to obey the gun laws, we make crime more attractive,
> > profitable and likely for those who do not obey the law. Washington,
> > D.C. has the strictest gun control laws in the country and the highest
> > murder rate, 69 per 100,000, while other major cities with more gun
> > freedom have only a fraction of that rate. 200 scholars from major
> > universities (Harvard, Stanford, Northwestern, UCLA) released an
> > open letter to Congress on June 16, 1999 stating that proposed new
> > gun laws are ill-advised: "With the 20,000 gun laws already on the
> > books, we advise Congress, before enacting yet more new laws, to
> > investigate whether many of the existing laws may have contributed
> > to the problems we currently face."
> >
> > "The United States has a higher murder rate than other countries
> > because Americans own so many guns." False. Switzerland and
> > Israel have more gun ownership than the United States and their
> > murder rate is far less. Switzerland has more guns per person than
> > any country in the world, yet is one of the safest places to be. All
> > males age 20 to 42 are required to keep fully automatic rifles or
> > pistols at home. It's a common sight to see Israelis carrying
> > sidearms. On the other hand, Brazil and Russia have complete gun
> > control, and their murder rate is five times that of the United States.
> >
> > "Guns in the home are so dangerous because most murders are
> > acquaintance murders, that is, someone you know gets angry and
> > picks up an available gun." False. The vast majority of
> > "acquaintances" who kill involve drug dealers, gangs, prostitutes, cab
> > drivers, barroom brawlers, etc., and 90% of murderers have criminal
> > records.
> >
> > "The easy availability of guns in the home contributes to crimes of
> > passion and domestic violence." False. Denying guns denies a
> > woman the ability to defend herself against an abusive man. Guns
> > equalize the means of physical terror between men and women.
> >
> > "Passive resistance is the safest response to an attacker." False. It
> > depends on the means you have to resist. If a woman has only her
> > fists to defend against a rapist, she's not likely to be successful with
> > active resistance. But if the woman has a gun, active resistance can
> > mean the difference between rape and safety.
> >
> > The "increase in rampage killings" shows we need gun control. False
> > again. Professor Lott, who did a couple of thousand hours of research
> > on this issue, found that there has been no upward national trend in
> > such killings since the mid-1970s.
> >
> > "We need safe storage laws." False. States that passed "safe
> > storage" laws have high crime rates, especially higher rates of rape
> > and aggravated assault against women.
> >
> > "We need waiting periods and background checks to reduce crime
> > and youth violence." False. No academic study has shown that crime
> > is reduced by waiting periods or background checks.
> >
> > Clinton brags that we are safer because "the Brady law has kept
> > 500,000 criminals from buying handguns." False. The only academic
> > research done on the Brady law showed that the Brady waiting period
> > has had no significant impact on murder or robbery rates and is
> > associated with a small increase in rape and aggravated-assault
> > rates, perhaps due to removing victims' ability to defend themselves.
> >
> > "Guns create a terrible danger of accidental deaths." False. Rep.
> > James Traficant (D-OH) told the House: "Something does not add up,
> > the number of accidental deaths involving guns average 1,500 per
> > year; and the number of accidental deaths caused by doctors,
> > surgeons, and hospitals average 120,000 a year. That means ... [it
> > is] 80 times more possible of being killed accidentally by a doctor
> > than a gun." (April 4, 2000)
> >
> > "We should register guns and license gun owners just like
> > automobiles, and that won't lead to confiscation because we haven't
> > confiscated cars." That's a false analogy. There are 130 million
> > automobiles in the United States weighing about a ton each and
> > confiscation would be impossible. We've seen gun confiscation and
> > its results in many other countries. The analogy to automobiles also
> > fails because cars are not used in self-defense to protect lives.
> >
> > "The gun show loophole most be closed." False. There is no gun
> > show loophole. Anyone who is engaged in the business of selling
> > firearms, whether at a gun show or a fixed retail store, must fill out a
> > government registration form on every buyer and get FBI permission
> > through the National Instant Check System for every sale. There is
> > no evidence that gun shows are an important source of criminals'
> > guns. A 1997 National Institute of Justice study in December 1997
> > reported that only 2% of felons acquired their guns at gun shows and
> > those included purchases from licensed dealers who conducted
> > background checks.
> >
> > "Assault weapons should be banned." False. Civilian assault
> > weapons are not machine guns. They are just ordinary guns that
> > have a pseudo-military appearance. They do not fire faster, the
> > bullets are not especially powerful, and they are slower than bullets
> > from hunting rifles. Semi-automatic guns do not "spray" bullets and
> > are not machine guns, they require a separate pull of the trigger for
> > each shot to be fired just like a revolver. (Fully-automatic military
> > assault rifles are not part of the current gun debate.)
> >
> > "Handguns must be banned." False. The law abiding, by definition,
> > will abide by the law; law violators will not. Handguns will always be
> > available at some price; demand will create its own supply.
> >
> > "We must get rid of the Saturday Night Special." False. This is a
> > small, low-caliber, short-barreled, not-too-expensive gun. Not only
> > does this type of gun have a legitimate sports and recreational use, it
> > is the best defensive weapon for poor, inner-city residents who are
> > the most likely potential victims of crime. Why deny them protection?
> >
> > "The American Society of Pediatrics says that handguns should be
> > banned." But the pediatricians' statement is based on the usual
> > bogus statistics, not on any scientific study. If the pediatricians did
a
> > scientific study, they might reach the same conclusion that
> > Professor Lott did, namely, that more guns in the hands of
> > law-abiding people result in less crime.
> >
> > We are told that "we need zero tolerance in the schools about guns."
> > But schools were a lot safer prior to the 1970s, when guns in schools
> > were very common. Professor Lott has pointed out that, "until 1969,
> > virtually every public high school in New York City had a shooting
> > club. High school students carried their guns to school on the
> > subways in the morning . . . and regularly competed in city-wide
> > shooting contests." When guns were so easily accessible, even
> > inside schools, why didn't we have the problems that we have today?
> > The reason can't be that kids take guns to school.
> >
> > _____________________________ _________________
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In Europe we are not autorized to have gun...
(with some exception for competition)
IMHO it's a safest place to live.
Criminals can have gun by non-legal way but :
1-it's more difficult.
2-it's costly.
3-well they can't have the gun with them all the time (the police can catch him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
And the final point is that self-defense hasn't worked anywere !
<edit>
Well I missed the point, the "analogie" with swiss show one thing : EDUCATION!
If people are educated they rarely kill each other... (and all the swiss having gun have all done their military service and doesn't keep armed gun in their house ... )
[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 06-27-2000).]
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In europe, guns did not become a past time sport due to WW1 and WW2. In America it has...did you read the whole story? Or just generalize from the hip?
"The sheer number of guns and gun owners in America makes gun control far more unrealistic than Prohibition. At least 80 million Americans own about 250 million guns, and about 99% of gun-owners obviously handle
many more accidents."
Gun ownership for sport and recreation was never the focus of the media until drugs worked their way into society here in the US. Then, firearms became part of the drug culture (gangs) and now private firearms are used in self defense due to the above statement.
My wifes gun saved her from being robbed, and possibly raped by a drug dealer/user ex-convict(presumed, he was whacked out, and had already a record of previous convictions).
Cause and effect.
The media here will report tradegy caused by firearms, but pay no attention to those incidents where self-defense saved a mother.
You do know that swimming pools are the number 1 killer of children don't you? Should we make them illegal too? Or license them?
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 06-27-2000).]
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Yeah, get a gun everyone!
Or even better, get your very own biological weapon of mass destruction!
Why bring a knife (or in this case) a gun to a mass destruction fight?
Fact: A high capacity pistol can hold around 16+1 rounds.
Fact: There are more than 17 criminals with guns.
Fact: the government has nukes, tanks and F-16's
Fact: We need a way to defend ourselves from the ever opressive government and be the True Patriots we can be AAAYYMEN JAYYSHUUS
Fact: We've already messed things up so bad with guns, a few more won't matter. So go for it and let's have fun!
Fact: Showing some skin on TV is more dangerous than letting kiddies get hold of guns or letting them see the f*** word on online sims. So bring on them guns.
Fact: We saved the European butts TWICE last century. Don't take no doo doo from them, even though they are right.
Fact: Europeans aren't right, and have never done a decent thing. Americans are God's own people.
Fact: America is One Nation Under God. Which is good, since we have all these guns and we then can let God sort 'em out.
Fact: Our chicks dig the cute European accents, and Europeans infiltrate our society and steal our chicks.
Fact: StSanta is an agent of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy. Rumours has it that he is even Satan, the leader, himself. Or a genetically manipulated version of him and Santa Claus.
Fact: He should be sorted out by God and our guns.
Fact: We should invade Europe.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<waves to Ripsnort, giggles like a little girl and runs away.>
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 06-27-2000).]
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I swear I'm gonna grab the pointy fork and stick it in your butt one of these days when I make it over to Europe! Hehehehe...I can hear you now.."Please sir , May I have another!" <S>!
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Good one Stsanta (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The sad thing is that it's almost to late for the gun control in the US (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
As an European and due to cultural environement I don't feel the need to have a gun.
I'm confident on the police forces to protect my family and me !
I can understand that people can have gun to hunt or for competition but I cannot understand having a gun for self-defence it's IMO to dangerous for the owner AND the other people.
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StSanta, you took the words right outta my mouth!
Straffo, I say this respectfully: It's an American thing, you'll never understand.
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yep funked american thing......
massacre in school, american thing too ?
gang war, american thing too ?
hey the far west and cowboy time is over...
american want rules the world again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Ok Funked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I got it it's an american think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Like "electric chair" (free translation for "Chaise éléctrique (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
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I'm with ya on this one rip.
It's a basic truth that when we're not turning godless heathens into fertilizer on foreign soil to protect the ah-murrican way of life. (low gas prices) Well, we're shooting each other. It helps to stay in practice.
I have fond memories of the first time I pulled a gun on my father. It was at the dinner table and I was six years old. He acted shocked at the time but later on when he was sitting in his favorite chair I saw a small tear well up in the corner of his eye. I earned his quiet respect that day. A nice side benefit was the fact that I didn't have to eat those guldern beans anymore!
I can't wait for the day when my kids will be pointing firearms at me.
You uppity Europeans may be snickering at us now, but wait until our 80 god-zillion dollar Area 51(tm) space-age missile defense system is in place. I can guarantee you that the price of Heineken will be dropping.
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"I can understand that people can have gun to hunt or for competition but I cannot understand having a gun for self-defence it's IMO to dangerous for the owner AND the other people."
It's easy to understand once you've had a gun to your forehead or once you've been shot at. Twice I wish I had a gun for self defence, and I got EXTREMELY lucky both times.
udie
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Not to better your story Udie, but I've had a gun pulled on me 3 times, and fired at me once. Thus, my weapons permit, numerous classes on fire arms safty, and law enforcement voluntary work.
I do believe it's a cultural change that took place from the 60's to the 70's. We didn't have a problem prior to that, hell kids took their guns to school for sports competition shooting back in the 50's and early 60's!~
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Calm down ,I'm a poor Eureopean (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And I've never heard neither in my familly,not in my friend of someone have a gun pulled on !
(well ,not since WWII (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif),where some of my parent unfortunatly lost their life)
But I bet that if you where living in Europe you will not be an owner of gun !
It's a cultural/educational/legal concern, and we can't transpose our different experiences in other country!
You uppity Europeans may be snickering at us now, but wait until our 80 god-zillion dollar Area 51(tm) space-age missile defense system is in place. I can guarantee you that the price of Heineken will be dropping.
euhh... I don't realy understand the abose statement but if you want Heineken why don't you go to the nearest supermarket? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I am a poor defenseless european too, but IMHO, controlling (or at least trying to) weapons is a good step to create a better environment for your life.
I mean, you cant eliminate the crime in this way, criminals are always at work, but you can reduce the use of firearms in other occasions, where the people act stupidly or fight for nothing, in that case owning a firearm will put an unwilled end to the question.
About self defence, in my country, when they do a robbery, you dont have time to defend your self with a gun, you found yourself with a gun in your head, before understanding what's going on.
If you have a gun you can try to be a cowboy, but you have to be faster to extract, point, and shoot, than him to just pull the trigger, be realist, you can?
I dunno if in USA the criminals stay at 15 meters and say :"This is a robbery, give me the money or be prepared to extract !!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif), naaah, i cant believe that.
Robbery is close and personal, you look at that black hole opening at 5 centimeters from your eyes, I KNOW IT !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif).
Or may be you have just to wait the bad boy turn an run away to shoot him in shoulders ??
Is'nt murder for your law ??
Why not just let him take your money and go, your life (or his life) have so low value?
Let to police the work to defend you, they are payed for that.
And, just for info, i had guns in my hands, even a machinegun, but i never want to own one because i can do something wrong when i become mad (my hands are a little bit less dangerous). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I know there is a cultural difference, and before the end of WW2 in Italy was easy to own a gun too, but after the war, when Italy was occupied (or liberated) by the allied armies, the fear of a communist golpe put the government in position to deny the owning of firearms, except for the ones regularly recorded and authoryzed, and i think somethink similar happens in the rest of Europe.
As a secondary effect, the citizens become more educated regard this issue and learn that kill other people is'nt a good think and dont make you a better man.
You are a young people, never seen a REAL war in your house (and is quite different than send an army in other's house), you need just time to learn acting as an adult people.
The sad think is, because of your superego, you refuse to learn from other's mistakes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
But such is life (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Peace and love (and sex!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
Naso
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"The sad think is, because of your superego, you refuse to learn from other's mistakes"
I think it's a mistake to let somebody shoot you to death, that's the lesson I learned from. The main reason for guns though (in the US IMHO) is to protect ourselves from our government. Which I think is getting closer and closer to having to actualy happen.
I wish we didn't have guns at all. Here in the USA at least, the criminals have BIG guns. I want something to protect me and others from them. Plus, we already have 1000's of gun laws on the books that have been there for YEARS but never get inforced. The poloticians would rather use the issue (and all other issues) to beat each other with.
Personaly I don't own one, because of my temper I'm scared I'd use it. But the time is getting closer to when I'm going to have to buy one while it's still legal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Udie
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Originally posted by Udie:
I think it's a mistake to let somebody shoot you to death, that's the lesson I learned from.
Having a gun in your hands can actually invite someone to shoot in you head, for HIS self defence.
The main reason for guns though (in the US IMHO) is to protect ourselves from our government. Which I think is getting closer and closer to having to actualy happen.
Got the point, but less dangerous cut be using the vote (you vote in elections? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
I wish we didn't have guns at all.
NOW i like you !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Here in the USA at least, the criminals have BIG guns. I want something to protect me and others from them. Plus, we already have 1000's of gun laws on the books that have been there for YEARS but never get inforced. The poloticians would rather use the issue (and all other issues) to beat each other with.
Same here buddy!!!
But is a war you can't fight with guns, believe me.
They have nothing to lose, you have your family and your life (and they kill them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)).
Personaly I don't own one, because of my temper I'm scared I'd use it.
Here you get the BIG point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But the time is getting closer to when I'm going to have to buy one while it's still legal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Be patient and remember:
"The violence is the last refuge of the stupid."
i dont remember who say this.
"Social problems are always more complex than you can imagine."
This is mine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Naso
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What the hell are we talking about this here for? Don't we have enough to argue about? Hey the .357 if fricking overmodeled. Sheesh!
Sour
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Sour
JG-2 Richthofen (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
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Just let the ugly Americans have their guns. It keeps them happy and their numbers down.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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Originally posted by Naso:
"The violence is the last refuge of the stupid."
i dont remember who say this.
Naso[/B]
Someone buried in a unmarked grave no doubt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I have reservations that anyones mind will be swayed on the issue of Firearms in this forum. But I always find it interesting that Europeans (who managed to murder some untold millions of them selves in the last century with them) seem to look down upon private gun ownership by American Citizens.
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LOL, talking about learning on other's mistakes, uh... Jimbear? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But, of course, You have the right to repeat the same mistake, but in YOUR house, this time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
*edit*
p.s.
The numbers i know is about 52 millions deaths (civilians and soldiers) in 2nd WW and about 14 millions in 1st WW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
About 500.000 to one million Yankees (not civilians). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
And you want repeat that ?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
Do it by yourself, i'm not with you this time.
[This message has been edited by Naso (edited 06-29-2000).]