Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on December 12, 2000, 01:12:00 PM
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To while away the hours until the Supremes sing the last notes in the election "horse opry"....
Shall the US honor it's committment to defend Taiwan when push finally comes to shove?
Read this before answering:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/default-20001212222836.htm (http://www.washtimes.com/national/default-20001212222836.htm)
China runs 2nd test of long-range missile
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
China conducted the second flight test of a new intercontinental ballistic missile last month and is preparing for the third test in the next few weeks, a sign Beijing is accelerating its long-range missile program, The Washington Times has learned.
The flight test of the DF-31 missile was carried out in early November during the visit to China by Gen. Henry H. Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Pentagon officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.
"This test and plans for the next one show they are moving ahead with their road-mobile long-range missile program," said one Pentagon official familiar with reports of the test.
Defense analysts said the timing of the test during the four-star general's trip appeared to be a deliberate political signal to the United States.
The test took place during a three-day visit to China by Gen. Shelton from Nov. 3 to 5. The general observed live-fire Chinese military drills near the southern city of Nanjing.
During the visit, Chinese military officials repeated Beijing's vehement opposition to U.S. arms sales to Taiwan.
A Taiwanese military delegation is scheduled to arrive in Washington in the next several days to present the Taipei government's annual arms purchase requests to the Pentagon.
The missile test so close to the U.S. presidential Election Day also was viewed by analysts as a signal to the next U.S. president of China's opposition to U.S. missile defense deployment.
Texas Gov. George W. Bush has said he favors deployment of a missile-defense shield to knock out long-range missiles. Vice President Al Gore has criticized Mr. Bush's missile-defense plans and has not indicated clearly his position on deployment. President Clinton rejected deploying a missile-defense system earlier this year.
White House spokesman P.J. Crowley declined to comment on the details of the missile test, citing its policy on intelligence information.
However, Mr. Crowley sought to play down the threat posed by the DF-31. "The fact that the Chinese have a new missile, the DF-31, under development is well known," he said. "They have publicly indicated for some time an intention to modernize their strategic forces."
The CIA has said that the DF-31 and a longer-range version, the DF-41, will be the first Chinese missiles to incorporate U.S. nuclear weapons design information obtained through espionage, namely smaller warheads.
The new missiles also are expected to incorporate U.S. missile technology obtained illegally from the United States through commercial space cooperation, according to intelligence officials.
Unlike the last DF-31 test in August 1999, the November test was not made public by the Chinese government. It was disclosed to The Times by defense officials.
The flight test was carried out from the Wuzhai Missile and Space Center, some 250 miles north of Beijing. The flight path of the test ICBM could not be learned. The last test, however, was conducted within Chinese territory and involved several decoy warheads —an indication of China's intention to increase the DF-31's capability to defeat missile defenses.
Officials said U.S. intelligence reports indicated the missile test was successful.
China in recent months has increased its threatening rhetoric against the United States. A Chinese government white paper issued in October described the United States as a global menace bent on "gunboat" power politics. It called the situation in the Taiwan Strait "grim."
In February, the official military newspaper Liberation Army Daily warned in a blunt commentary that Beijing would resort to "long distance" missile strikes on the United States during a regional conflict over Taiwan.
"This is another warning shot in the political campaign China has sponsored over the past two years against deployment of a U.S. national missile defense," Michael Pillsbury, a former Reagan administration defense specialist on China, said of the latest missile test.
Mr. Pillsbury, in his recent book of translations of Chinese military writings, stated that China's strategy is to use its small but growing nuclear forces to threaten the United States with nuclear attack as a way to prevent U.S. military defense of Taiwan in any conflict with China.
The CIA reported last year that China's current long-range missile force includes 13 missiles targeted on the United States.
Richard Fisher, a China military specialist with the Jamestown Foundation, also said the latest DF-31 test is part of a propaganda campaign aimed at influencing U.S. policy-makers against deploying a missile defense.
"China is making maximum military-political use of its new nuclear missile capability," Mr. Fisher said. "The tests themselves are being used to target American decision makers as well as to target Taiwan's leadership to signal both that China's new missiles are intended to deter American support for Taiwan."
In 1996, China used short-range missile test firings north and south of Taiwan in an attempt to influence elections on the island. The United States responded by sending two aircraft carrier battle groups to the region in a major show of force.
Mr. Fisher predicts that the new DF-31 will become operational "in the very near future."
The Chinese will begin garrison deployment of the DF-31 in the period between 2005 and 2010, said Mr. Fisher, who recently returned from a visit to China.
"The tragedy of the Clinton years is that America has no missile-defense capability to counter China's anti-Taiwan missile capability," Mr. Fisher said.
Chinese military officials have stated in private and through the official press that Beijing is willing to use nuclear weapons against the United States to deter the U.S. military from backing Taiwan in a conflict.
The test, according to defense officials, highlights China's strategic nuclear military buildup, a modernization program that has been played down publicly by the Clinton administration to avoid upsetting the pro-China engagement policy.
The truck-mobile DF-31 was first tested on the ground in 1995 and again in 1998, when ejection tests were carried out — firing the missile out of its launch tube.
After the first flight test, which took place Aug. 1, 1999, the Chinese government announced it had conducted a test launch of "a new type of long-range, ground-to-ground missile within its territory."
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Oh, don't worry. China is our friend. Just ask clinton. You can thank his administration for the gyro system inside those missiles along with who knows what other classified info that is no longer classified. We will pay for this administration for years to come..
To answer your question, no, I don't see the US starting a war over Taiwan. Our bark is bigger than our bite when it comes to China.
But just in case, I would think China would not take any action until it was prepared, ie in position, to handle any US retribution should it come. By that I mean they'd be in position to divert our attention away from Taiwan's problem and to our own whatever that maybe. Communication breakdown, massive computer failures, terrorist attacks on our mainland, restoring Israel after a nuclear terrorist attack (look at the pretty yellow stars on that bright red package), etc...
China won't rush into anything until it's ready. They have more patience than we Americans.
Eagler
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pssst......why do you think Gore is fighting so hard for the election?
The election isnt about who is president its about who finds the dirty little secrets from the past crew in charge.
Something happened recently during this election thing that few know about. Maybe one day it will come out. Its sooo dangerous out there right now, nothing like sitting on a powder keg.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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China's military is huge, but it is largely out-dated. They wouldn't stand a chance against us right now, but let's hope it stays that way. And Eagler is correct, China is very patient. I don't see any conflict over Taiwan in the near future.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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it doesn't take an army to lob a nuke. They've already said they'd trade LA for Bejing. Their premier said something about there being a few million less mouths to feed or something.
udie
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Udie, what you posted would never happen, not in the near future at least. China has less than 10 missiles capable of reaching the US. I really don't think they are willing to trade one of our cities for the loss of every one of their major population centers. They don't need to attack us, or start a war with us. They can simply out-wait us. On the other hand, I would like to look into the future and see China 50 years from now. I think you would be surprised by what you see. Some areas are already moving towards a capitalist-type of existence. Factor in the influence of China reacquiring Hong Kong, and I think China will be slowly evolving away from Communism.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Have they ever had communism? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I don't think there's been any record of pure communist or democratic states yet. China looks/looked more like a dictatorship to me.
(http://hem.bredband.net/rickenbacker/images/ricksig.jpg)
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pssst....Its not china (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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psst....look at the title of the thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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You make me laugh. A lot. USA is a nation that for 25 years has affirmed there is one only china and yet, it has provided finantial and military help to the "non existant" Nationalist Republic of Taiwan.
The U.N. first had Taiwan as the only chinese representant. Then they kicked the Taiwanese's representant's bellybutton and let the People's Republic of China in as the ONLY chinese representant. To the date, Taiwan has no representation in the UN.
If it wasn't so serious this would be funny. This two sided policy cant be blamed to one or two administrations, nor to one political party. Both Republicans and Democrats have played this absurd game.
Taiwan,as a nation, doesnt exist in the official policy of the U.S.:
Oh, don't worry. China is our friend. Just ask clinton. You can thank his administration for the gyro system inside those missiles along with who knows what other classified info that is no longer classified. We will pay for this administration for years to come..
Clinton?...
ask Nixon. ask Carter. Ask Reagan. Ask Bush. And then ,ask Clinton.
All those presidents have played Chinese's game. All of them have kept the "one china" policy while giving money and weapons by the back door to the Taiwanese.
Really,its laughable.
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Originally posted by RAM:
You make me laugh. A lot. USA is a nation that for 25 years has affirmed there is one only china and yet, it has provided finantial and military help to the "non existant" Nationalist Republic of Taiwan.
The U.N. first had Taiwan as the only chinese representant. Then they kicked the Taiwanese's representant's bellybutton and let the People's Republic of China in as the ONLY chinese representant. To the date, Taiwan has no representation in the UN.
If it wasn't so serious this would be funny. This two sided policy cant be blamed to one or two administrations, nor to one political party. Both Republicans and Democrats have played this absurd game.
Taiwan,as a nation, doesnt exist in the official policy of the U.S.:
Clinton?...
ask Nixon. ask Carter. Ask Reagan. Ask Bush. And then ,ask Clinton.
All those presidents have played Chinese's game. All of them have kept the "one china" policy while giving money and weapons by the back door to the Taiwanese.
Really,its laughable.
What would you have the US do RAM? Should we sit idly by and allow a country that chose to distance itself from Communism be bullied in giving up that which they fought and ultimately fled to maintain? You can laugh, but do you have a better solution?
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-12-2000).]
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We should be very concerned about China.
It is no secret that China has been training for an actual military engagement with the USA. China considers the United States to be a very serious threat to their national security, and they are planning for all eventualies. Foreign Relations with China will be our next big challange, if what I've been reading is true.
Gunthr
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The Soviets didn't have the guts to start a war with us, the Chinese don't either. They are in the wrong region to start a war with U.S., if they do then they will be whooped just like the Japanese were.
P.S. I fear China's Navy.
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
What would you have the US do RAM? Should we sit idly by and allow a country that chose to distance itself from Communism be bullied in giving up that which they fought and ultimately fled to maintain? You can laugh, but do you have a better solution?
No, I mean just the inverse...you should have had the guts in the 70s to keep on saying that the legal and true China was that little island with a democracy, not the big potence with a communist dictatorship. You kept giving money and weapons to the little democracy, of course.
But the political legitimacy now it is on the PRC's side, not on taiwan's. In the UN there is a PRC's representant, not a Taiwanese. In the Security Council of the UN there is a PRC's representant WITH VETO POWER...
And USA, in public, keeps on saying that there is one only China. With capital in Beijing.
Of course, back in the 70s you wanted to be the friends of the big red part of the cake instead of the little democratic part. Why?...to press USSR. Call it Realpolitik call it like you want, this was another example of very bad exterior policy by the USA in the 70s, for the Chinese were already a quite significant threat for the USSR without US support.
The problem now is that this is not South American 3rd world nations as Chile, Nicaragua or Argentina can be, this is today's third nuclear potence, and one of the most growing economies in the planet.
And this can be VERY dangerous indeed. The later the USA starts a two-chinas policy, the worse it will get.
Nath, you dont know chinese culture too much, don't you?...I dont know it too much but I know the bassics. This are people who plan for decades, even for centuries. They look to the future as the future in 50 years, not to the next two years.
Hell this is the nation that wanted the tanks to run over the manifestants...and fired the tank driver for not doing it...
Yes, I fear them. And I am in Spain, an insignificant nation for them...you are the first stone in their way to reach world supremacy. And that makes you a first-class target, for if you hadn't noticed it, for that nice, wonderful and brilliant ICBM they just tested. Because they wont use an Inter-continental nuke to kill Taiwan, will they?
(BTW, the communism in China works. Well, at least their own particular adaptation).
Scary. VERY scary.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-12-2000).]
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The red chinese practically run the panama canal. They also have a deep water port in the Bahamas at freeport. Of course the don't fly the red flag. They are run by a front company, Hutchison Whampoa, with very strong ties to the highest leaders in the Chinese armed forces/government (is there a difference btwn china gov and military, don't think so).
http://www.pamedia.com/wastednews/20000119_chinese_port.html (http://www.pamedia.com/wastednews/20000119_chinese_port.html)
Like I said, they will not act until they are ready.
Scary
No other administration has leaked/sold as much classified material to the Chinese as this one.
Eagler
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The one thing I find ironic about the chinese and the clinton administration is that the chinese helped fund it. Now why do you suppose clinton wanted to insure that china had "most favored nation" trade status.....
Mav
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Not to be over optimistic but something tells me that we are quite safe from ICBM's
note that a while back there was much talk of lasers and particle beams and how they could be used to down ICBMS and then all the sudden You stopped hearing anything about it...well think back a littel further to a article on something called "stealth technology" and you will see that for a while it was a hot topic and then it too suddenly dropped off the face of the earth. then desert storm come along and uh ho what the hell is that!!? a stealt plane!..or 2
I have no hard evidence that this is the same but i look at how long stealth technology was kept secret, it was a LONG time and the only reason it was unveiled when it was is because of the Gulf War, if it wasnt for that i really doubt any of us would know the phrases B2 Spirit, or F-117 nighthawk. I just think that we are better taken care of than we know. At least i hope so.
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Umm we sold secrets to the chinese because we already have defense for the secrets we sold to them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If they launch nukes against us they will be destroyed by anti ICBM systems, its all a ploy to make the Chinese do something stupid so we can gain control over their country. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
I have no hard evidence that this is the same but i look at how long stealth technology was kept secret, it was a LONG time and the only reason it was unveiled when it was is because of the Gulf War, if it wasnt for that i really doubt any of us would know the phrases B2 Spirit, or F-117 nighthawk. I just think that we are better taken care of than we know. At least i hope so.
The existence of the F-117 nighthawk was admitted in public, and was official since 1984. Only 4 years after making it into service or less, IIRC.
The F-117's first operation was over Panama, during the US intervention in 1989, not on the gulf war.
The B-2 was of public existence before making it to the air the first time.
And, to kill your confidence, it isnt the same to design a plane in secrecy than to develop an anti-ICBM technology.
Firstly because if it is going to be a laser technology it will need material put in orbit, and will be difficult to hide.
Secondly because when there is a secret development going on, people know that "something" is being worked on. Lockheed's "Skunk Works" developed many "secret" planes in their moment, and while one was in develop, people knew that a new plane was being designed. not the type nor the characteristics, but that there was something being worked on.
A program like this would need a very dedicated effort to produce any sound results, meaning that the developer should invest a lot of work and money on a program that they wont be able to explain.
There is no news of something like that going on last years.
Even more, 20 years ago many things were kept in secret, today simply not. The F-22 development is almost of public knowledge, 20 years ago this plane's information would be entirely classified. Not so today.
If an anti-ICBM system was to be developed today, for sure people would know it.
And last, and by far the most important thing...the anti ICBM missile system, or the "star Wars" technology necessary for an anti-ICBM system, would have an astronomical cost. The F-22 has been developed by two companies with almost full dedication, and the cost has been incredible.
So...where did the funds to the anti-ICBM technology came from? Who gave the "go ahead" order?? (I believe that US congress has to aprove the bugdet for any project like this, and I doubt they would do it with such a costy program after they almost killed the F-22).
Wake up. There is no anti ICBM system in USA so far. And I doubt ever there is any serious work done on it since the 80s (I think that the SALT pacts forbidden such investigations, am I wrong?)
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Nath, taking as true that USA has an anti-ICBM system (wich as you may have read is highly unlikely)... what if ONE of the missiles makes it thru?. What if ONE missile avoids the Hypotetic anti-ICBM system and falls in the middle of L.A.?...remember, ballistic missiles can't miss, as they are "guided" by phisical laws...guided anti-ICBM missiles CAN miss.
WE all heard the wonderful anti-missile the Patriot was. I am sure that Israel didnt thought the same in 1991.
Thing is, if a SCUD passes the anti missile barrage, there is one conventional missile exploding in the middle of a city. Bad but affordable
IF an ICBM passes the anti missile barrage, millions of people are going to die. unnaceptable.
Again if you feel secure, better for yah...you are in the line of fire.
I am not. Its quite ironic that I'm worried about your lifes when you are not about your own's...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-13-2000).]
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Well RAM, I'm glad you seem to know more about our national security than we do. I'm not saying we have an anti-missile system, but you can bet that there are weapons systems being developed that Congress has no clue of.
And on a side note, let a Desert Storm vet clear up any misconceptions you may have about the effectiveness of Patriot missiles. The missiles were not designed to destroy the incoming missile. They were designed to break it up and alter its course. In a normal battlefield situation, this is good enough to ensure that the missile lands away from its intended target, and lands harmlessly in an open space. The missiles weren't intended to protect major population centers. In a densely populated area, even if you knock the missile off course, the warhead can still land intact in a populated area.
I watched Patriot interceptions first-hand, and I can say that I never saw a Scud make it past a Patriot. Some of them still managed to detonate on impact, but they were away from our encampment.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-13-2000).]
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RAM,
Have you served in the US military? or any military for that matter?
There is sooo much that goes on that the general public does not know about.
hint on my earlier post...remember the Kitthawk fly over? ummm that wasnt the only "incident".
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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You got that right Dnil. I could be jailed for reveiling any further explanation.
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RAM posts alot without realy thinking, as we all know, and most of his 'information' ends up being incorrect.
p.s. I don't live in LA, all those fake Hollywood celebs could die for all I care.
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F-117 development started in 1976.
The first F-117 trial aircraft flew in June of '81.
F-117s were delivered to the USAF in '83.
Until November 1988 the USAF denied existance of the F-117.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-13-2000).]
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Don't go by IIRC next time, RAM, look it up. This time you were waaaaaay off. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
You got that right Dnil. I could be jailed for reveiling any further explanation.
That's putting it politely. They'd lock us in a little room and simply throw room away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And none of the little rooms would end up remotely close to each other either.
As far as funding goes, a popular public theory is that the funds are buried in the anual operating budgets of the service doing the research, like the Chair Force for the F-117s and B2s. Dinnae if that's how it works or not, but better believe if it's important enough it will be funded. As far as almost killing the F22 goes, there are several aircraft already in the inventory and in front line service that can perform the same jobs more efficiently. Biggest advantage the Raptor has (that's what they call it, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) is it's low observability factor, which can be a deciding factor in a fight especially when you can lock up a bandit 10nm farther out than he can aquire a lock on you because of stealth technologies. But it's almost a case of fixing something that ain't broke.
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Don't go by IIRC next time, RAM, look it up. This time you were waaaaaay off. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Nath...got it wrong, yup, but has been a long long time since I last took a look at any info on the F-117, and I dont have it at hand right now (been too much busy with prop planes lately). I admitted that I could have that wrong, so I dont feel ashamed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thing is, after 4 years of deployement the F117 existance was made public. It was not on Desert Storm, but in 1989 when they first fighted, over Panama.
And the B-2 was known by the public before the first of them took off.
So, TheWobble's affirmations were wrong.
Raub...well I understand your statement about the Patriot-Scud thing.Seems I got that wrong too... But bassically supports what I am saying, if you cant destroy a SCUD, how can you destroy a ballistic warhead diving towards the earth at ultrasonic speeds?.
Dnil, I have to admit this, I have no idea on what are you talking about (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). The kittyhawk flyover?...what was that?.
And by last, well I dont pretend to know more about US national security than any of you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I only say that, until the date,I thought that the congress has a comitee that has power over ALL Secret project financiations. I got that wrong, too?...fine, one thing more I learnt today (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Really I find refreshing that you think you are, or will be in the near future, more or less safe against ballistic missiles. I really hope you are all right (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I wonder if we could persuade the Chinese to use Florida as the next test target?
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All the talk about ICBM defense systems makes me chuckle.
We've been worried about ICBMs since the late 50's/early 60's. Do you seriously believe there haven't been any real defenses developed for them yet?
As for comparing aircraft developement with defense developement... how many times do you have to take a ground based laser up for a test flight? Don't underestemate the ability for the truly dedicated to keep things secret.
And... are you aware of the capability of industrial lasers these days? I currently work with one capable of downing small aircraft. Its for a purely industrial use, but its potential is staggering. I guess its just hard for me to believe there wouldn't be a better one out there.
AKDejaVu
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I wonder if we could persuade the Chinese to use Florida as the next test target?
LOL! I could just see it now:
GWBjr: "Give up Beijin for L.A.?... we can live with that"
China: Stunned silence
GWBjr: "Do you have anything to could reach Florida too? We'd let you have that one for free."
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
You got that right Dnil. I could be jailed for reveiling any further explanation.
Can you point the rest of us non military types in the right direction?
Eagler
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Had I not been in China last year at this time, I would have said this is all wanking on the BBS. Thing is, as i sat in the airport surounded by machine gun toting soldiers and watching what was going on around me, I figured out in 3 seconds that things there are quite a bit diffrent. The thought of long range missiles? Eeeek. In the Mercury News yesterday I read they sent a woman to prison for 8 years for sending newspaper clippings back to her husband (in the US I think). Really-
And a country that lets off O.J. for killing 2 people is going to understand them and nuke use with that ideology?
Were doomed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Creamo (edited 12-13-2000).]
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
LOL! I could just see it now:
GWBjr: "Give up Beijin for L.A.?... we can live with that"
China: Stunned silence
GWBjr: "Do you have anything to could reach Florida too? We'd let you have that one for free."
AKDejaVu
ROFLMAO! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I think the bottom line is, if you don't mess with China, they're not going to mess with you. Out of the whole garbled mess of conflicts in the past century or so, how many did China initiate?
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-13-2000).]
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hehe I like Rip cant really give any more info. I am sure if ya dig some ya may find some more.
One thing about 3 years ago in particular would scare the willies out of most americans if they knew.
MCAS Yuma has many reasons for its existance, the bombing ranges being the least of it.
I did my time in AWACS for those that didnt know.
and yes, Janes has info on AWACS that is off....umm by quite a bit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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come on guys, your among friends (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
besides you have me email, don't want the story just a strong clue....
Does JEODU have anything to do with it?
Eagler
[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 12-13-2000).]
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china is where about 90% of american consumer electronic products are comming from , from my dealings with chinese they are in buziness to make cash. wars are expensive and china has a tradition of losing them.
they want to be left alone , and they know us (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) we will only leave them alone if we are afraid of them. seems cool to me.
if they invaded all the troops would desert for min wage jobs here lol. after selling their wepons to the highest bidder. they are some serious capitalists.
dont worry about the chinese its silly . we got what we need to keep them in line.
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Originally posted by -towd_:
if they invaded all the troops would desert for min wage jobs here lol. after selling their wepons to the highest bidder. they are some serious capitalists.
Don't worry, they have their wise comrades who are brainwashed to kill everything that does not see red.. couple neck shot peasants will make others eye glow red once again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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A note on the patriot.
The patriot that was sent to the desert had a computer timing flaw, it has since been fixed. and pretty much without despute the patriot is the billy badass of surface to air missle technology.
As far as BLACK PROGRAMS it is a pretty well know fact that the gov has launched spy satellites in full view of the public and other odd thing like killer satellites and nobody knew a thing till they were told many years later. I try to imagine the wierd toejam that is flying around and shooting god knows what and it amazes me, dont kid yerselves, if the Gov doesent want you to know about something You damn sure are not going to know about it.
On a side note, The parking lots at Groom lake (area 51) have been almot at capacity for the last 6 years, as have the ones at the Skunk works...Something is cookin any guesses as to what.
Also I used to have this teacher who was an F-18 pilot for the navy from just after NAM to a little while before desert storm...and he saw combat. He wont say where and with who just that he has seen his share of things go boom. And one the class discussion swerved to BLACK PROJECTS and while the class mumbled he was strangley quiet and you could tell he wanted to say something, after it was all over We kept prodding him about it and he finally told us that. After some of the things he has seen fly if there is ever a next war that isnt push button (nuke) you do not want to be on the ground or in the air against some of the things he has seen, and then in added and i dont mean F-117's and other outdated aircraft. What struck me is that he referred to the F-117 as out dated, what has this man seen?
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AND as far as the lack of ICBM threats goes..
Back in the day (cold war) We had 1 enemy the USSR and we had a direct lint to talk to and deal with them, now days there is no threat from russia itself but you can point to almost any place on the globe and there is a possible nuclear threat from it. It migh be only 1 or at most 3 missles but 1 is too many. There is a bigger threat today of a nuke being shot this way than EVER before, and we dont even know who it is or what their motives are. I doubt this fact is lost on the gov and i am quite certin that they have taken some steps that we dont know of to protect "their" country.
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Someone once told me that there were ICBM silos under central park.
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Nath,
I doubt there are Silos under central park because of the fact that that is a strategic target, most silos are out in the middle of nowhere so that in the event of an attack they could fire, i dont think they would put them in a population center, but then again...that may be what they want you to think. *cue twilite zone music*
However, I wouldent doubt that there could be a very large bunker under central park for the more important populace in the event of a launch. maby 400 or 500 feet down, but it would be damn hard to hide that construction.
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Lol Nath, I hope you told them you didn't have any spare change.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
The Soviets didn't have the guts to start a war with us, the Chinese don't either. They are in the wrong region to start a war with U.S., if they do then they will be whooped just like the Japanese were.
P.S. I fear China's Navy.
Has everyone forgotten that we are still at war with China (North Korea). Thankfully, as nath pointed out, they have no naval power to speak of . Russia has more to fear from China than we do. They share a heavily fortified border and have been hostile to each other for decades . China isn't going to do anything stupid . Countries with intercontinental nuclear strike capabilities in this day age tend to treat each other very politely .
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Lotta blabbing. History repeats itself.
Fact: Iraq invades Kuwait.
Fact:US runs to liberate Kuwait.
Fact:US got a toejamload of trading benefits from Kuwait because of it.
Fact:Kuwait is a major Oil producer, something which will hurt US economy rather badly. Thus intervention is ok... and add some `noble cause` crap to be fed to the IQ-less US population.
Fact: China invaded and still holds Tibet.
Fact: Tibet only produces Dalai Lamas.
Fact: Dalai Lamas arent needed by the US economy.
Fact: US has done nothing about it.
Reason: Not interested, Tibet is worthless to US interests and there are no people protesting about Tibet`s invasion outside the White House 24/7
History Repeats itself: If China invades Taiwan, the US will stand by and watch. Probably will throw in some token, face saving (for the US public only, the rest of the world doesnt vote on election day) sanctions. Taiwan becomes 21st century Cuba.
Fact: Fidel will laugh his bellybutton off.
Fact: China`s military may be low tech, but there are a toejamload of chinese. If half naked, starved PEASANTS of Vietnam kicked the crap out of the US, the Chinese can too. Oh, BTW, they got nukes now.. and the Chinese is not squeamish about using them even if they lose a lot of people. `Less mouths to feed in China and less Americans to worry about` theory.
US states there is one China. Who do you think they will proclaim as the ONE China if things get red hot? Puny Taiwan or collossal China?
Like somoene said before, this would be really funny if it wasnt true.
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FACT: U.S. fought Vietnam with both hands and one leg behind its back.
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Kuwait is far more important to us strategically than it is economically . Remember why nazi Germany went into north Africa ? The war machine still runs on petroleum . That's why we fought the USSR indirectly for 40 years in that part of the globe . If the Chinese took Taiwan it wouldn't make that much difference in the global scheme, except of course to the Taiwanese . But I don't foresee that happening . They know we don't have any qualms about sinking Chinese ships and subs or shooting down Chinese planes . We still remind them of that every few years .
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FACT: U.S. fought Vietnam with both hands and one leg behind its back
And who is to blame?
United States of America... Beak and talons of eagle but brain of chicken.
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jochen
Kids today! Why can't they fetishize Fascist military hardware like normal people?
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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Actually the Military was hindered by politics in Vietnam, It wanted to go in and just kick bellybutton but it was "unpopular" with the public, ya see in america the goverment at least listens to the voice of people.
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OK, now it's been kicked around a bit. Time to draw the line.
GIVEN: China will eventually move to enforce its sovereignity over Taiwan.
The US has 3 choices:
1. Disregard its treaty obligations to Taiwan and allow China to reclaim Taiwan.
2. Give Taiwan nukes and let Taiwan decide its own fate.
3. Honor US treaty obligations and defend Taiwan against the Chinese with a) conventional or possibly b) nukes. This action "calls the bluff" of China's threat to nuke the US.
So, what is the correct course? Pick one please. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 12-16-2000).]
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Ill pick number 4.
Nuke um first till they glow and make a nice big parking lot outa the area. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Dnil - you remind me of a sketch a few years ago, by a couple of British comics called Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie. I think it sums up your attitude quite nicely (and the attitude of CNN et al at the time of the Gulf War).
Hugh:
My brother Oren and I would like to sing for you now, but we can't. At least my brother Oren can't, bein' as how he suffered a strange musical accident when he was young, that caused lasting and considerable damage. So if it's all the same to you, my brother Oren will just sit here and tap along to the strange rhythms in his head. This song is called "There Ain't But One Way". (Starts to play)
The world is facin' problems,
Gettin' bigger every day,
We got a greenhouse over Texas,
And recession's on the way,
There's hunger in the third world,
There's anger in the first,
Half the world is floodin',
And the other's dyin' of thirst,
But tho' people they may tell you,
That this planet's dyin' fast,
I ain't seen a problem yet,
Can't be solved by kickin' ass,
Kickin' ass!
Stephen:
Kickin' ass!
Hugh:
Kickin' bellybutton is what we do,
Kickin' ass!
Stephen:
Kickin' ass!
Hugh:
Iron foot in the velvet shoe,
We don't care whose bellybutton we kick,
If we're ever all alone,
We just stand in front of the mirror,
And try to kick our own,
We kicked bellybutton in Grenada
We kicked bellybutton in Iraq
We've kicked the bellybutton out of the ozone layer
Now they say we gotta kick it back,
We'll kick the bellybutton of cancer
We'll kick the bellybutton of AIDS
And as for global warming
We'll just kick bellybutton wearing shades.
Stephen:
Kickin' ass!
Hugh:
Kickin' bellybutton is what we do
Kickin' ass
Stephen:
Kickin' ass!
Hugh:
Iron foot in the velvet shoe
We don't care whose bellybutton we kick
If we're ever all alone
We just stand in front of the mirror
And try to kick our own
Yes you can move your ass
Haul your ass
And bustin' bellybutton is fine
And there ain't a better place to put your ass
Than on the line
But if you're like us
And you won't take second best
You'll just put your kickin' boots on
And kick like all the rest.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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If I have to, I choose #3.
My little opinion is this...
When you fight a bully who threatens you, a very hard and deliberate punch in the nose will always cause him to rethink his options.
Gore and Clinton, I do not believe, would have stood up to China in any meaningful way.
Bush, on the other hand, is an entirely different dog. For that Im grateful.
Ltr
Ice
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Tongue and cheek my brit chap, tongue and cheek. Your gonna have tons of fun in the military old chap. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)