Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Waffle on September 01, 2005, 07:36:59 AM
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just heard on the news that they've suspended airlifts outta the Superdome area cause idiots are shooting at the helicopters trying to evacuate.....
That mess is going to get even more uglier.......
desperate people.....
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*Insert Mad Max Picture Here*
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Permission to shoot back granted!
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Navy has cobras otw, I heard the newsman say navy gunships. So the Poe-lice (like my nawlins accent there?) may have lots of aerial IR at their disposal to scope out the banditos.
Should make for a good "Cops" episode.
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Will be nice when gunships will have ground threat radar sophisticated enough to plot counterfire on small arms trajectory.
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See what TV has done.
they see it happening on TV overseas so now they do it here.
Im joking. but you just know someone is going to try to say that.
Haveta admit though. there is a similarity to what we see happening overseas.
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One persons stupidity shouldn't reflect on all the people that are in dire straits....
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Originally posted by Waffle BAS
just heard on the news that they've suspended airlifts outta the Superdome area cause idiots are shooting at the helicopters trying to evacuate.....
You're saying that said idiots have got guns? Say it isn't so. :eek:
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It should be illegal to shoot at helicopters.
lazs
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Its not nice to say, but I look for the army or marines to show up and start killing the lawbreakers.
Maybe even turn into Judge Dredd's
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Huey Minigun vid anyone?
:aok
I hope COPS does have film crews in the area, I'd like to see the stuff that goes down.
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what is happening over there ? People should help eachother in a disaster like that. This is too weird for me too understand. Is it much poverty in the area ?
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So when people are in life distress and shoot rescue workers in despiration for their lives and trying to get attention, now people are waiting to see them get killed on the next COPS episode.
Uh oh..
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more info (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4205074.stm)
According to this a member of the national guard has been shot too.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So when people are in life distress and shoot rescue workers in despiration for their lives and trying to get attention, now people are waiting to see them get killed on the next COPS episode.
Uh oh..
Cos yeah, shooting the people trying to help you is a perfectly valid form of communication, and should be rewarded with sympathy, not summary execution. Ummmmmmmmmmkay?
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All cities have this criminal/hoodlum element. They are mostly drug addicts and are desperate. This is to be expected and hopefully they will be taken care of so that the saving of good people can continue.
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I just caught a news brief on the radio and some of the volunteer medical folk had to brought with armed escort.
Some of the rescue efforts (going out searching for folks) had to be postponed because they were being shot at as well.
It's pretty ridiculous if true...
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Use the right tool for the job :
(http://www.helicopassion.com/images/UH60/UH60-80m.jpg)
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This is indicative of human behaviour. There is always a few less evolved folks making the headlines in any disaster situation.
Pretty sad, but not geographically motivated. Happens everywhere in every type of society.
What makes it really dumb is that these people (term used loosely) are taking things, but really have nowhere to use them or keep them. What good is a 27 inch tv when you have no electricity or an above water living room to sit and watch in?
As for gunships.....send'em in.
RTR
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Shoot back. They will stop or lose.
When we had a looting problem here the chief of police publicly announced that they didn't have room for any more looters and that he had instructed his cops to just beat the hell out of anyone caught looting. Word got around pretty quick, problem ended in a day or so. A guy that went to my highschool got shot in the rump running from a store he got caught stealing from. He kept going for about a block before he went back and asked for help.
Rummaging for food and water in that situation is understandable. The wholesale thievery that's going on is expected, but abhorrent. Firing on rescue workers is, in my mind at least, grounds for responding with overwhelming and deadly force.
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If you are a crewman on the chopper and get hit do you get a purple heart?:D
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So when people are in life distress and shoot rescue workers in despiration for their lives and trying to get attention, now people are waiting to see them get killed on the next COPS episode.
Uh oh..
I won't name names, but whoever wrote this is ignorant.
The shooting of the helos in this case is no different than the incidents of shooting airplanes and helicopters that take place over wooded areas during every deer hunting season... they shoot because they can.
The looting of jewelry, watches and electronics is part of the same mentality... they will loot because they can.
The people who do these things are not "desperate people," they are psychopaths who are most often found in our jails and prisons. They are the first to emerge in any disaster which causes the breakdown of society, so the Mad Max post isn't that far off...
The fact is, "society" exists in order to put controls on these people. When society breaks down, these knuckleheads are the first to emerge.
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Lazs --
Not intended as a troll, but as a pointeed question --
Does this kind of behaviour in any way conflict with anarchism? Or the right to keep and bear full automatic weapons?
BTW I am NOT a gun control advocate
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Originally posted by Simaril
Lazs --
Does this kind of behaviour in any way conflict with anarchism? Or the right to keep and bear full automatic weapons?
Not trying to hedge in on Lazs territory, but that behaviour doesn't conflict with anarchism, it emulates it.
The right to keep and bear arms has nothing to do with the illegal actions of the thugs shooting at rescue workers other than that it affords people the opportunity to protect themselves , their families and whatever meager possesions they may have from lawless individuals with no respect for anything but their own sociopathic tendencies.
Like the man said, it should be illegal to shoot at helocopters.
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Simaril, take a gun course. Learn how to handle a weapon safely, confidently. Learn the difference between an automatic and a semi-auto. Educate yourself by direct exposure to the weapons and the folks that understand the balance between capability and need.
It'll open you eyes. And you'll sleep better, even without owning a weapon.
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I thought that maybe people were shooting the rescue copters because they were rescuing people from the dome, not from the stranded tree or rooftop.
But as I was pointed, it's very easy for a psycho to get a weapon down there so there's plenty of potential.
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some are getting restless as they are missing Jerry Springer, didn't get their last welfare check and can't find the crackman ...
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This is what happens when evacuation is not folowed by all. Their are 2 types of people that stay, those that have no means to leave, and then there are those who have a very low IQ. Who do you think is doing the shooting and looting? At some point though when people get hungry and thirsty and it means survival, they do what they have to do to get food, but not at the expense of shooting the hand that feeds you.
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Originally posted by thrila
more info (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4205074.stm)
According to this a member of the national guard has been shot too.
didn't get alot of news yesterday, and the thread got locked but:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050831/ap_on_re_us/katrina_looting_hk1
snippets:
Looters also chased down a state police truck full of food. The New Orleans police chief ran off looters while city officials themselves were commandeering equipment from a looted Office Depot. During a state of emergency, authorities have broad powers to take private supplies and buildings for their use.
New Orleans' homeland security chief, Terry Ebbert, said looters were breaking into stores all over town and stealing guns. He said there are gangs of armed men moving around the city. At one point, officers stranded on the roof of a hotel were fired at by criminals on the street.
AND Authorities said an officer was shot in the head and a looter was wounded in a shootout. The officer was expected to survive.
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<
Out of the ruins
Out from the wreckage
Can't make the same mistake this time
We are the children
the last generation
We are the ones they left behind
And I wonder when we are ever gonna change it
Living under the fear till nothing else remains
We don't need another hero
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond the Superdome
Looking for something we can rely on
There's got to be something better out there
Love and compassion, their day is coming
All else are castles built in the air
And I wonder when we are ever gonna change it
Living under the fear till nothing else remains
All the children say
We don't need another katrina
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond the Superdome
What do we do with our lives
We leave only a mark
Will our story shine like a life
Or end in the dark
Give it all or nothing
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This same thing happened during the LA riots.
The fact is that many, many people are tottering on the edge of chaos every day with only the threat of repercussion keeping them in line.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Lazs --
Not intended as a troll, but as a pointeed question --
Does this kind of behaviour in any way conflict with anarchism? Or the right to keep and bear full automatic weapons?
BTW I am NOT a gun control advocate
Ya know... there are two sides to the anarchy coin and one of them doesn't include violence and a disregard for others.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
The looting of jewelry, watches and electronics is part of the same mentality... they will loot because they can.
Actually, it makes sense to loot jewelry along with the food and any other items that could enhance survival. It might be useful for barter. Hell... who knows when order will be restored?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I thought that maybe people were shooting the rescue copters because they were rescuing people from the dome, not from the stranded tree or rooftop.
But as I was pointed, it's very easy for a psycho to get a weapon down there so there's plenty of potential.
I still have a very tough time following your logic....but maybe its just the language barrier or something.
Are you still contending that just because the helicopter is saving someone else, its ok for you to shoot at it to "get its attention"? Or are you just trying to get in a quick jab over American's right to keep and bear arms?
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Originally posted by airguard
Is it much poverty in the area ?
Oh yeah, I remember when the patriots were playing green bay in the superbowl, they had an article in the paper about the area. They warned you not to venture too far from bourbon street, just a few blocks away was a very bad area. They avg'd 1.3 deaths a day. The people in the area would turn their lights off at night so they would not be seen through the windows(they were targets). Bad area to begin with, now there is no law around to keep them in check, yeah, I could see this happening. Think of all those addicts who are not getting their fix, I would not want to be near them.
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Reports from this morning said that Game and Wildlife officials in boats are still rescuing 600-700 people AN HOUR. Did anyone leave the city?
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Are you still contending that just because the helicopter is saving someone else, its ok for you to shoot at it to "get its attention"?
No it's not ok. But if you'd be sitting on the rooftop of a sinking house for two days with your children crying for fresh water and food, you might take a shot or two in anger and frustration too. Providing you got a loaded gun handy.
'Daddy why are those relatively safe people being picked up from the dome while we're about to dehydrate or drown here?'
Then again if they were looters, kill em all. Worst scum of the earth.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
But if you'd be sitting on the rooftop of a sinking house for two days .... you might take a shot or two in anger and frustration too.
No I wouldn't. That's what separates law-abiding people from criminals.
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Hi VOR,
Originally posted by VOR
This same thing happened during the LA riots.
The fact is that many, many people are tottering on the edge of chaos every day with only the threat of repercussion keeping them in line.
There is a lot of truth in what you say above.
I don't have time to find the quote in my library but I believe it was Lord Acton who said something along the lines of men will be either be ruled by a moral conscience or the strong arm of men, in essence they will be ruled either by the bible or the bayonet. Unfortunately, in New Orleans there are a lot of people who are utterly devoid of a working conscience and the threat of the bayonet has temporarily been lifted. Hence the utterly lawless behavior we are seeing.
This will be of little interest to most, but in theology we have a category called "common grace" and under common grace amongst other things we have the common means that God has given to restrain the evil of the stony hearted. They are, the family, the church, and the government. Unfortunately, for many years our society has been hell-bent on tearing down parts one and two of that equation while attempting to replace both of them with part 3.
Especially as I meet with those seeking charitable assistance, I increasingly encounter people who not only have never been to a church, but who have never been part of a functioning family. They have essentially been raised without any ethics, and in reality without any rules or structure at all. The only restraint on their actions, from the very beginning has been the possibility that the government might send them to jail for certain behaviors. Remove the imminent threat of punishment from the magistrate, wait for long enough for them to realize it, and you inevitably will have looting, violence, shooting at helicopters, etc.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
'Daddy why are those relatively safe people being picked up from the dome while we're about to dehydrate or drown here?'
"because we were too stupid to evacuate and get to the dome ourselves like the mayor and everybody said to before the storm hit son."
All those people being plucked from rooftops had the same opportunity to get to the Dome just like everyone else. It might sound harsh but I have no sympathy for those who were able to leave and didnt.
Unfortunately the ones roaming the streets now causing the problems are probably the ones who could have left but didnt. It really makes me mad that they have had to divert a lot of police and national guard units to the role of tracking down and stopping the looters instead of trying to rescue people.....such a huge waste of manpower being spent on an unnecessary job.
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the only place where you could have a discussion this idiotic would be on an internet bulliten board.......WAIT! :aok
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I believe they were firing on buses not helicopters. As buses are what they are using to evacuate the Superdome. New O. police have been ordered to cease rescue efforts and turn entirely to battling armed looters.
I do know a hospital in Gretna has asked for troops to help them evacuate after armed gunmen stole trucks shipping in medicine and food. Tenet Healthcare said they could no longer guarantee the safety of their patients and staff.
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I just heard the news on the radio that mobs are running the neighborhoods and 3 people have been shot and killed, rapes have been committed at the Super Dome. Man it sounds very bad and living here in southern california makes me think what might happen when we have the big one. The right to bear arms sounds more and more needed for protection of life and property.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
in essence they will be ruled either by the bible or the bayonet.
I vehemently disagree. I consider myself to be a moral person and I'm an atheist. I do not act this way because I fear the "bayonet". It is because I expect to be treated in the same way.
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Originally posted by BTAirsol
The right to bear arms sounds more and more needed for protection of life and property.
Indeed, indeed. And that's because your country has let all kinds of idiots get their hands on guns. Look how it all ends up when that happens.
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Criminals always manage to get their hands on guns Beetle. Guns exist in every country of the world, you cant stop them from coming in. Your way just ensures that if there's a disaster that disables those in charge, only the "idiots" as you put it will have guns, and they can do as they please with the rest of you. Thank God all Brits dont share your opinions. Some of them might still manage to save your arse if you (God forbid) ever get hit by a disasater of this magnitude and the "idiots" run wild.
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No I wouldn't. That's what separates law-abiding people from criminals.
That shows how little you know of human behaviour in distress.
When you're about to die, humanity disappears and survival kicks in. Before you say anything, no it's not hollywood death or AH death now. The real thing. Uncomfortable, agonizingly slow and inevitable death. You watch your children wither away.
And you talk about law abiding.. :lol
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I vehemently disagree. I consider myself to be a moral person and I'm an atheist. I do not act this way because I fear the "bayonet". It is because I expect to be treated in the same way.
You may be an atheist, but your moral character has already been determined by the bible.
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Don't believe the media hype...
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"Lazs --
Not intended as a troll, but as a pointeed question --
Does this kind of behaviour in any way conflict with anarchism? Or the right to keep and bear full automatic weapons?"
well.... it would seem that the first part of the question has been answered by others for me... I believe that shooting at rescue workers is attempted murder and I do not condone murder.
As for automatic weapons? I have seen government troops spray down women and children with automatic weapons at waco... I trust government wannabe ninjas a lot less with full autos than I do fellow citizens.
I believe in the second amendment... I believe that any infringement on the right of the people to keep and bear arms is unconstituional and beyond that... immoral... that includes regestration and bans on any type of hand held firearm that is not an "area" weapon such as mortars and grenade launchers, biological or nuclear, etc...
I know that the second merely affirms the right of people to keep and bear arms and limits the governments rights to restrict it in any way.... It is a right... not a privilidge to be doled out at the whim of the government.
If there were an amendment that forbade the infringement of driving cars then vehicle regestration and drivers licences would be unconstitutional... The right to keep and bear arms is a right just as free speech is and the government has no right to restrict it in any way.
Ohh... and if the government is gonna go in shooting.... then I really do want lots of cameras on the whole event. I want a good record kept of who kills who and why and how.
lazs
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
That shows how little you know of human behaviour in distress.
Fortuntately, not many other people do either. If they did, they would not have any rescuers to shoot at.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Oh yeah, I remember when the patriots were playing green bay in the superbowl, they had an article in the paper about the area. They warned you not to venture too far from bourbon street, just a few blocks away was a very bad area. They avg'd 1.3 deaths a day. The people in the area would turn their lights off at night so they would not be seen through the windows(they were targets). Bad area to begin with, now there is no law around to keep them in check, yeah, I could see this happening. Think of all those addicts who are not getting their fix, I would not want to be near them.
this sound very scary, I hopy you guys cope and will deal with it.
then again I heard the norwegain red cross is going to send every needed supplies over to that area as a helping hand.
Even if USA is the one of the richest countries in the world I guess you need a helping hand. (well atleast I woulda liked that if it happend in Norway)
Good luck and keep on the good work guys.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You may be an atheist, but your moral character has already been determined by the bible.
You believe that we didn't have morals before the bible?
Right... :rolleyes:
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Beetle put yourself in the position to where your family is going to get robbed, raped and possibly killed, what would you ask for to stop it? I know it is a tough choice based on your morals, but when adrenalin kicks in, that animal behavior to survive takes over, you do what you have to do to protect your loved ones. I did not mean to make this an aurgument, it just is hitting me harder today and made me think what would I do.
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I don't have time to find the quote in my library but I believe it was Lord Acton who said something along the lines of men will be either be ruled by a moral conscience or the strong arm of men, in essence they will be ruled either by the bible or the bayonet. Unfortunately, in New Orleans there are a lot of people who are utterly devoid of a working conscience and the threat of the bayonet has temporarily been lifted. Hence the utterly lawless behavior we are seeing...
This will be of little interest to most, but in theology we have a category called "common grace" and under common grace amongst other things we have the common means that God has given to restrain the evil of the stony hearted. They are, the family, the church, and the government. Unfortunately, for many years our society has been hell-bent on tearing down parts one and two of that equation while attempting to replace both of them with part 3.
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Criminals always manage to get their hands on guns Beetle.
Not here, they don't. That's why there are so many crimes committed with replica guns. Those crimes still count as gun crimes though. The point is that why would they use a replica gun instead of the real thing, when the penalty is the same. And the answer is that they cannot always get their hands on guns - the real thing. But I do concede that they can sometimes get their hands on real guns. Nashwan posted some stats - he said that 48% of gun crimes in Britain were committed with replica weapons. And when it comes to stats, Nashwan is da man. I would not dispute any stats he comes up with.
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Think a policeman in Mississippi had the best idea. While they were doing search and recovery, if they found folks looting - shoot them. Pin a label on them that says "looter" and leave them there. Continue search and rescure.
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Hello Sandman,
Originally posted by Sandman
I vehemently disagree. I consider myself to be a moral person and I'm an atheist. I do not act this way because I fear the "bayonet". It is because I expect to be treated in the same way.
I hope you'll forgive me if I don't get into much of a debate on this as, I'm really way too busy. Maybe later?
Actually, I accidently mixed a quote from Acton with a quote from another man, Here is the full text of the actual quote I was referring to. It was actually Robert Winthrop, Speaker of the US House of Representatives, 1849.
"All societies of men must be governed in some way or other. The less they have of stringent State Government, the more they must have of individual self-government. The less they rely on public law or physical force, the more they must rely on private moral restraint. Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them, or a power without them; either by the word of God, or by the strong arm of man."
I would expect you to disagree with this, as I probably once would have. But put simply, no matter how much we might hate this fact, the foundations for Western Ethics are based on the Ethical system of the bible. There is no basis in the "law of nature" for "loving ones neighbor as oneself" , in fact observe the wolf pack or the looters and you'll see precisely the opposite law at work.
Did we have morals before the closing of the canon? Well to a great extent all the ethics of Western civilization post-dated the closing of the canon, but certainly one could appeal to civilizations that had ethics without the bible (Ancient Greece for instance). There I'd say the essential truth of the quote above is still binding. Why did the Greeks follow their ethical system? Because even they felt it to be based on principles set down and enforced by their creators, the same could be said of all ancient civilizations.
For my part, I'd say that the vast majority of their ethics were in fact informed by the conscience that their creator gave them.
But Sandy, attempts to create a stable system of ethics in Atheism always fail. The very denial of any absolutes immediately means that they are open to the charge of being arbitrary and instead of being an unchanging code, they are as mutable as silly putty and ultimately all get swept away as desire masters restraint every time. Nietszche dismissed them as contemptible tools by which the weak seek to master the strong, Sartre and De Beauvoir both tried to work out an atheistic ethic and ultimately failed as to paraphrase Sartre, without a fixed reference point all other points are ultimately meaningless. All we have then are preferences which must be enforced by the state, but which are subject to endless flux and an accompanying "will-to-power" struggle.
So what do most Atheists do? They trade on borrowed capital. Most generally agree to follow a system of ethics, but when their preferences differ from the prevailing system...
- SEAGOON
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Sorry, my response is continuing a hijack. I'm starting a new thread. Beetle, I would like some discussion on this, but I'm not going to continue it here as it has nothing to do with the intent of the thread.
Thanks.
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Unfortunately many good people were lost in the storm, and those that the storm should have claimed remain.
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About now, Im feeling more sorry for the animals down there then I am the "people" that remain and continue to loot,kill, and shoot at eachother, including the hand that feeds them.
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So what do most Atheists do? They trade on borrowed capital. Most generally agree to follow a system of ethics, but when their preferences differ from the prevailing system...
As a pastor, I hope you know more about life than you do about athiests. Arrogant, ignorant and insulting of people who differ from your beliefs. Good day and good by.
Charon
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off to the other thread with my post :)
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Here's one story.
Police and Owners Begin to Challenge Looters
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By FELICITY BARRINGER and JERE LONGMAN
Published: September 1, 2005
NEW ORLEANS, Aug. 31 - In a city shut down for business, the Rite Aid at Oak and South Carrollton was wide open on Wednesday. Someone had stolen a forklift, driven it four blocks, peeled up the security gate and smashed through the front door.
Skip to next paragraph
Jim Wilson/The New York Times
Paul Cosma and Jennifer Schmidt stood, armed, at the entrance to Mr. Cosma's auto repair shop in New Orleans, on the lookout for looters.
The young and the old walked in empty-handed and walked out with armfuls of candy, sunglasses, notebooks, soda and whatever else they could need or find. No one tried to stop them.
Across New Orleans, the rule of law, like the city's levees, could not hold out after Hurricane Katrina. The desperate and the opportunistic took advantage of an overwhelmed police force and helped themselves to anything that could be carried, wheeled or floated away, including food, water, shoes, television sets, sporting goods and firearms.
Many people with property brought out their own shotguns and sidearms. Many without brought out shopping carts. The two groups have moved warily in and out of each other's paths for the last three days, and the rising danger has kept even some rescue efforts from proceeding.
Because the New Orleans police were preoccupied with search and rescue missions, sheriff's deputies and state police from around Louisiana began to patrol the city, some holding rifles as they rolled through the streets in an armored vehicle.
But on Wednesday night, the mayor ordered about 1,500 city police officers, nearly the entire force, back to their traditional roles.
The looters "are starting to get closer to heavily populated areas," Mayor C. Ray Nagin told The Associated Press, "hotels, hospitals, and we're going to stop it right now."
Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said she was "furious" about the looting.
"What angers me the most is disasters tend to bring out the best in everybody, and that's what we expected to see," Ms. Blanco said at a news conference. "Instead, it brought out the worst."
All sizes and types of stores, from Wal-Mart to the Rite Aid to the St. Vincent de Paul thrift shop, turned into bazaars of free merchandise.
Some frightened homeowners took security into their own hands.
John Carolan was sitting on his porch in the thick, humid darkness just before midnight Tuesday when three or four young men, one with a knife and another with a machete, stopped in front of his fence and pointed to the generator humming in the front yard, he said.
One said, "We want that generator," he recalled.
"I fired a couple of rounds over their heads with a .357 Magnum," Mr. Carolan recounted Wednesday. "They scattered."
He smiled and added, "You've heard of law west of the Pecos. This is law west of Canal Street."
Though no one excused the stealing, many officials were careful not to depict every looter as a petty thief.
"Had New York been closed off on 9/11, who can say what they would have done?" said Cynthia Hedge-Morrell, vice president of the New Orleans City Council. "When there's no food, no water, no sanitation, who can say what you'd do? People were trying to protect their children. I don't condone lawlessness, but this doesn't represent the generous people of New Orleans."
One woman outside a Sav-a-Center on Tchoupitoulas Street was loading food, soda, water, bread, peanut butter and canned food into the trunk of a gray Oldsmobile.
"Yes, in a sense it's wrong, but survival is the name of the game," said the woman, who would not identify herself. "I've got six grandchildren. We didn't know this was going to happen. The water is off. We're trying to get supplies we need."
Jimmy Field, one of the state's five public service commissioners, said supply and repair trucks were being slowed down by people looking for food and water. Some would not go on without police escorts.
"Right now we're hoping for more federal assistance to get the level of civil disturbance down," Mr. Field said.
One police officer was shot Tuesday trying to stop looting, but he was expected to survive.
An emergency medical vehicle that was taking a Baton Rouge police officer who had been shot last month from a hospital back to his hometown was shot at on the way out of New Orleans on Tuesday.
East Baton Rouge Parish officials agreed to send 20 buses with special weapons and tactics officers to help evacuate New Orleanians, but only if a state trooper was also placed on each bus. The plan was scuttled.
"I told them I don't mind committing drivers and vehicles, but I wasn't going to put our people in harm's way," said Walter Monsour, the chief administrative officer of the parish.
Besides the strain of having to rescue survivors, the police are bereft of much of their equipment, buildings and essential communications. The Police Department was scheduled to receive new radios on Wednesday night to coordinate its activities, said Lt. Col. Mark S. Oxley, a spokesman for the state police.
Charles C. Foti Jr., the Louisiana attorney general, said a temporary detention center and courthouse would be established somewhere outside New Orleans. "We will be ready to accept you in our system, and teach you about rules and order," Mr. Foti warned looters.
On Tuesday, the state police sent in 200 troopers trained in riot control, said Lt. Lawrence J. McLeary, a spokesman for the state police.
He said that the "nervous energy" in New Orleans reminded him of the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. "I've never seen anything like that in Louisiana," Lieutenant McLeary said.
With no officers in sight, people carried empty bags, shopping carts and backpacks through the door of the Rite Aid on Wednesday and left with them full. The forklift was still in the doorway. As they came and went, the looters nodded companionably to one another.
Paul Cosma, 47, who owns a nearby auto shop, stood outside it along with a reporter and photographer he was taking around the neighborhood. He had pistols on both hips.
Suddenly, he stepped forward toward a trio of young men and grabbed a pair of rusty bolt cutters out of the hands of one of them. The young man pulled back, glaring.
Mr. Cosma, never claiming any official status, eventually jerked the bolt cutters away, saying, "You don't need these."
The young man and his friends left, continuing the glare. A few minutes later, they returned and mouthed quiet oaths at Mr. Cosma, and his friend Art DePodesta, an Army veteran, who was carrying a shotgun and a pistol.
Mr. Cosma stared back, saying nothing. Between the two sides, a steady trickle of looters came and went, barely giving any of them a look.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
So what do most Atheists do? They trade on borrowed capital. Most generally agree to follow a system of ethics, but when their preferences differ from the prevailing system...
- SEAGOON
I'm atheist and my morale is pretty less elastic than lot of christian I know (including non papist catholics)
Do I paint all the catholics as whole ?
no
so respect my lack of religion please.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Indeed, indeed. And that's because your country has let all kinds of idiots get their hands on guns. Look how it all ends up when that happens.
The only id10t here is the one who completely misunderstands our gun laws in the US.
It is not Easy to get a gun here. You cannot have a felony conviction or a number of other restrictions. I won't go into it because I am not an expert. Others here are and can speak with more knowledge than I can.
FACT IS! Most criminal elements DO NOT get their guns from the gun store. They get them on the black market! No amount of GUN CONTROL will stop that. These thugs got thier guns by looting the local gun shops.
We don't need gun control we need people control.
This who situation prove the adage: An armed populous is a save populous!
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John Carolan was sitting on his porch in the thick, humid darkness just before midnight Tuesday when three or four young men, one with a knife and another with a machete, stopped in front of his fence and pointed to the generator humming in the front yard, he said.
One said, "We want that generator," he recalled.
"I fired a couple of rounds over their heads with a .357 Magnum," Mr. Carolan recounted Wednesday. "They scattered."
He smiled and added, "You've heard of law west of the Pecos. This is law west of Canal Street."
Reality bites. Those that have weapons for self defense stand a far better chance of surviving than those that do not.
Welcome to the future.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
This who situation prove the adage: An armed populous is a save populous!
Provided this population had not to leave the area (it break the model no ?)
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
These thugs got thier guns by looting the local gun shops.
Indeed. That's why we choose to have no local gun shops. Well wait, we do, but the only guns they stock are side by side shotguns and limited range air weapons. - makes it difficult for the crims to get guns, which is the way I like it.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Reality bites. Those that have weapons for self defense stand a far better chance of surviving than those that do not.
Welcome to the future.
Yup and if the anti gun nuts had their way . The out come would have been one man stabbed and hacked with his generator stolen.
Bronk
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Seagoon is right.
Without a moral basis for one's actions, a large number of people will act out of pure, unrestricted self-interest when the threat of punishment derived from the rule of law is removed.
While there are a great number of people who have internalized a moral code of ethics that allows the welfare of others to supersede the immediate welfare and desires of the self, there are many times more people who, without religion to plant the seeds of such morality, will degenerate into self absorbed savages when facing any kind of adversity and there is no proximate threat of retribution for violent anti-social acts.
Or in other words, the scumbags will come out when the rule of law breaks down, and a common difference between the scumbags and those who retain their civilized character under duress is an internalized moral code based on a religious foundation.
edit - everyone but Americans seem to know this instinctively. I don't know why it suprises us, but it does.
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life is full of choices.
choose wisely.
very, very wisely.
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Right the rule of law, not from a fear of a cosmic santa clause. If antisocial behavior were the norm, human society would've fallen apart before we left the caves.
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." --Albert Einstein
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Suave,
Note that Einstein used the word "should". He was stating his version of an ideal situation. Einstein was an exceptional person and I think exceptional people often have unrealistic expectations of how people "should" act and think.
Einstein was a school dropout who went on to formulate some of the most radical and progressive mathematical ideas in history. I happen to think that in almost ANY given situation, he, as a school dropout, will always behave differently than a school dropout who never learned to read and who's idea of having a good time is taking drugs and finding ways to convince or trick every female in sight to submit to his sexual advances. And that's the contrast in behavior we're seeing here...
In the blue corner, we have one school dropout who came up with the general theory of relativity and who thinks people should act nice even when not under threat of punishment.
In the red corner, we have 10,000 school dropouts who are drug addicts and spend their days stealing money to feed their drug habits or trying to have sex with anything that submits to them. And the corner workers for this group are the modern entertainment industry glamorizing gangsta behavior and teach that it's never right to accept responsibility for your own actions.
Now put both corners into a natural disaster, see what happens, and learn what "human nature" really is.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Indeed. That's why we choose to have no local gun shops. Well wait, we do, but the only guns they stock are side by side shotguns and limited range air weapons. - makes it difficult for the crims to get guns, which is the way I like it.
How nice for you.
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eagle if it wasn't for human nature none of us would be here. Babies and pregnant mothers can't feed themselves.
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“No man was ever more than about nine meals away from crime or suicide.”
- Eric Sevareid
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Suave,
The mark of "civilization" is that the individual people themselves have internalized the need to place certain needs of the society above their own needs. This is a truly human survival trait, because when civilized behavior is the rule, it allows a line of victims to ALL be airlifted to safety instead of them ALL perishing because one impatient retard took a shot at the rescue chopper, driving it away before it could help anyone.
Heck if I was in that crowd, I'd get a group of other "civilized" people together and tear the shooter to shreds before he could drive away any more rescuers. That's how society works together in the face of adversity, and it's based on a set of moral rules that must stand in the face of strong instinctive urges that you might also call "human nature". Society lets us work together and prosper in the face of human nature, and a society without a common moral background seems to fall to pieces when stressed.
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Originally posted by eagl
Society lets us work together and prosper in the face of human nature, and a society without a common moral background seems to fall to pieces when stressed.
Here's the question though... can a society gain a common moral background without religion?
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Cyrano,
I was educated out of that idea. It takes only a few years as a kid in the boy scouts, or 3 weeks in a survival school, to make that kind of statement totally untrue and irrelevant. You've got the "city slicker" quote of the century right there, and the Americans with families who migrated coast to coast 2 centuries ago in search of better lives would by and large scoff at the idea that people could be so fragile. It's only the soft and protected who crumble so easily. Just ask Lance Sijan (or any Vietnam POW survivor) or the defenders of the Alamo.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Here's the question though... can a society gain a common moral background without religion?
Obviously yes. Without a common moral background humans wouldn't have even been able to rear offspring. And thus wouldn't have progressed to inventing an alphabet. Antisocial (criminal) behavior and law predate history.
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Ah Suave, but those early societies were often held together by a strong headman with great personal physical power and a shaman to keep people's minds on spiritual things. The oral tradition pre-dates written records, and those traditional stories were of gods and fantastic spiritual beings and events. Where there was culture, it was kept by the headman's strength (or a council of elders who kept certain survival secrets to themselves) and the spiritual belief structure they all shared. That's called religion. Any non-believers either pretended to believe or were driven out because a non-believer is disruptive to the society and culture.
We have many freedoms and a source of American power is our incredible diversity, but pull a bit on the thread and that diversity will cause the civilized fabric to unravel when enough "non-believers" place themselves over the common good and take part in violent counter-productive behavior that drives away efforts to restore civilization to the disaster area. I'm not sure it matters if the "belief structure" is based around god or based around the US constitution. A violent looter clearly has internalized neither belief structure, and is therefore a dangerous disruptive factor working directly against the reconstruction of the threatened society.
Even the Islamo-fascists see this... Why do you think they hate us so much? They have always recognized the danger presented by allowing in people who have not internalized the need to preserve the structure of their society, and they have reacted violently. I don't think that's a good justification for terrorism, but guess what - except for a few separatist rebel groups, you didn't see armed tsunami victims shooting at the relief workers even though their conditions were as bad or worse than ours.
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If that were true eagle we wouldn't be able to observe societies similar to our own in the rest of the animal kingdom. Whales and wolves don't tolerate antisocial behavior either.
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Maybe the reason we can't talk to whales is that we don't know what god they believe in? I remember more than one sci-fi story based on that general premise...
Seriously, outsiders in those animal societies are likewise shunned so they don't destroy the group. Look at how runts are universally treated, especially in animal species with strong group social dynamics. They are either killed outright or banished. The runt brings down the group as a non-believer *could* bring down a human society in a crisis.
Again, "non-believer" refers to a detachment from whatever moral fabric binds that society, whether it's religious or not. The concept of the melting pot society used to be the American belief, but as evidenced by the utter breakdown in NO compared to the strength of character demonstrated after the New York terrorist attacks, the persistence of the non-believing multi-cultural apologists (the ones who say savages living in mud huts have societies equal in all regards to any other modern society) is shattering our unity of purpose and action.
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Heck if I was in that crowd, I'd get a group of other "civilized" people together and tear the shooter to shreds before he could drive away any more rescuers. That's how society works together in the face of adversity, and it's based on a set of moral rules that must stand in the face of strong instinctive urges that you might also call "human nature". Society lets us work together and prosper in the face of human nature, and a society without a common moral background seems to fall to pieces when stressed.
Absolutely. Those very traits are what made the earliest civilizations possible, for that matter the earliest wandering tribes possible, at the earliest days of paganism if not before. But I disagree (and know from your last post that you don't make this point) that a specific set of religions -- as Seagoon seems to believe -- are responsible for morality in the world and that an atheist is devoid of natural compassion, morality or empathy.
You can be taught respect and feel compassion without Jesus, and I believe some degree is purely ingrained human nature -- instinctive in "most" people but obviously not in some. And I don't believe there is any more proof that it took a creator to put it there than any of the other possibility.
Obviously, many are not raised with the same human values most of us hold dear -- either through a lack of parenting, a poisioned culture or, for that matter, proper religious values (and a true acceptance of those values). And the inner trait, natural or put there by some power, is obviously weak in some. There are those that have had a perfectly moral upbringing, parents and church and good communities yet start killing prostitutes about the time they get their first car.
Before you think I'm overreacting on the religion thing, how many of you would like to be told that the only reason you behave in a moral manner is because you fear going to hell if you don't? Without that fear of hell you'd be looting and raping and killing. You trade your selfish earthly temptations for big-picture selfishness (not that I believe that for a second).
Charon
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Simaril, take a gun course. Learn how to handle a weapon safely, confidently. Learn the difference between an automatic and a semi-auto. Educate yourself by direct exposure to the weapons and the folks that understand the balance between capability and need.
It'll open you eyes. And you'll sleep better, even without owning a weapon.
Thanks. I dont own a gun, and havent considered it seriously; I've seen a lot of accidental stuff through my work, mostly from properly stored and managed weapons being misused by kids who figured out access. I've also had a close friend's dad, who was a collector and very good shooter, commit suicide after refusing depression treatment for a couple years -- giving me a close up look at the family devastation that brings. I understand the arguments for possession, and anarchy of this kind makes me think about it more -- but I dont know if I'm ready.
And I have to give a big thanks to those on this board -- the civil discussions have been great. I always thought "anarchism" meant opposition to all governmental structure; I've learned that it can also mean voluntary association of individuals who chose to cooperate.
In that sense -- a question for anarchists
How does a voluntary association deal with tragedy of this scale? How could a neighborhood -- the largest unit of people who could know each other and voluntarily cooperate -- recover without a large governmental structure to support it?
And how would such loose associations manage to avoid the danger of anarchism, where power goes to the strongest and most ruthless association regardless of its morality?
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i wonder if the passengers leading the counter attack on the hijackers of flight 93 were religionists.
not intended as a slam. just an observation. religious (insert yer favorite denomination here) tend to be pacifists and are not the folks that make the diffrence when a snap decison to fight, to defend, to take immediate, certain deadly action in a cusp is required for survival.
It's been my experience that religious folks tend to sob, wail, bury their faces and heads in the sand, pleading for divine intervention or guidance while others unhindered by religious taboos and indoctrination act.
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Simaril, you want to know how? Just look to the western US in the 19th century. Without recourse to Law, the settlers there made their own. And they enforced it with guns. They held it until Law could be established, and then they gave over its care to appointed and elected officials.
Point being, when there is no recourse to a higher authority to take care of you and enforce the "rules" that makes society tick, people of good conscience must be able to step in and take up the slack in the reins. Thats what the 2nd amendment to the constitution is all about. Its not just about a militia to be called up in times of war. Its about times like this when there IS NO GOVT. within easy reach, and men rule by force. Freedom is never free. Someone will always have to be willing to stand between the wolf at the door and those who cannot defend themselves. Usually its the police, or the National Guard, or sometimes the Army. Someday, the only one left might be your neighbor.
Soon, order will be restored, those who want to leave will be evacuated, and this will end. Until then, my prayers are with every soul in that toxic dump of a swamp, especially the ones who stayed because they couldnt leave someone else.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Thanks. I dont own a gun, and havent considered it seriously; I've seen a lot of accidental stuff through my work, mostly from properly stored and managed weapons being misused by kids who figured out access. I've also had a close friend's dad, who was a collector and very good shooter, commit suicide after refusing depression treatment for a couple years -- giving me a close up look at the family devastation that brings. I understand the arguments for possession, and anarchy of this kind makes me think about it more -- but I dont know if I'm ready.
You don't strike me as weak or unbalanced individual. Handling and learning the mechanics of a firearm is not going to contaminate you. I'm not advocating that you own a weapon. I'm advocating that you become intimately familiar with the more common types so that you may better understand the actual reality of their existence and operation in a first person situation. I humbly submit that you are unqualified to pass judgement on firearms untill you are competent with one.
Originally posted by Simaril
How does a voluntary association deal with tragedy of this scale? How could a neighborhood -- the largest unit of people who could know each other and voluntarily cooperate -- recover without a large governmental structure to support it?
And how would such loose associations manage to avoid the danger of anarchism, where power goes to the strongest and most ruthless association regardless of its morality?
History demonstrates that an armed society is a polite society. It becomes something else when only one group or element has the guns. Government's job is what again?
A voluntary association faced with a disaster does not destroy itself.. it's survival mechanism is not to stand on a corner waiting for the 'government' to tend to their welfare. They tend to their welfare themselves, or they do not survive.
We're seeing the results of the welfare state now in NO.. tell me. If you had a kid, needed food and water, were stuck in a dead city, tell me; would YOU sit on your wide fat welfare plumped bellybutton and just wait for the government to save yer nikes and bling-bling bag?
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Tell ya what. While I've always been in strong support of the right to own guns. I dont own one.
I've always felt that while I dont own a gun I want to be able to have that right, that choice to own one if I desired or ever felt the need.
After watching whats going on in the news I am very strongly considering getting one now.
Stopping and thinking a disaster like that be it by nature or terrorist attack or some other unforeseen event could hit any of us anywhere at any time.
As I am watching the various news programs. A man killed and left for dead on the side of the road. Rescue workers getting hijacked. Gunmen running around the streets shooting people and just taking what they want. A cop being shot in the head. A national guardsman killed by gunmen and more I am reminded of my fathers saying of "when the government cannot protect the people. The people MUST be able to protect themselves."
I've always felt that for all their good intentions. The government isnt really able to protect me other then to respond to something after its already happened.
This shines an even brighter light on it.
In times like this. in situations like this as we see the government is entirely unable to protect the people.
Many of these people already have and more will die due to the fact they are unable to protect themselves against roving bands of gunmen.
Course having a gun is by no means a guarantee of surviving. But it does help even the odds somewhat. And If it were me I'd at least want the fighting chance of going down swinging instead of cowering
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Somalia.
In Louisiana.
Whoda thunk it?
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Drediok,
What we are seeing right now is the actual situation that was "discussed" on the board a little while ago. It is the loss of a city and a significant portion of it's population due to the inability to be able to take care of themselves.
These folks do not have the skills or knowledge about what is happening and how to deal with it. They ahve had it very easy living in a city where there is water at the tuen of a tap. Food at the corner store and financial help if they are out of a job or cannot work. Now the very situations that kept them in a "civilized" world is gone. The city can't help them as the city infrastructure is gone. The state is not prepared to deal with an entire city virtually gone and unable to function. The Federal Govt. takes time to get into operation and get the proper equipment and people moving into the area. Logistics is a freaking nightmare as even the roads needed to drive there are flat GONE. You can't organize the equivalent of a Berlin airlift in a couple days.
As a result of this you have an element of the population that has realized very quickly that there is no one to stop them from doing what they want. Even if there were services available it still takes time for the authorities to get to the scene of a problem in good times. The victim still has to be able to survive until help can arrive. That can mean living only for 5 or 10 minutes but that will be the longest few minutes in your entire life.
In New Orleans you must be able to react on your own to a threat. If you have no means to really react then you are just another victim to those who have the will and power to take from you what they want, including your life.
I agree with you that a firearm is a critical tool to have to protect your family in that kind of situation. Now the key question is, are you willing to get the training to make yourself a prepared firearm owner and not just a person who happens to have one in the house? I cannot strongly enough stress thsat you get training in how to use the firearm but even more importantly, when NOT to use one.
I support your desire and maybe decision to get one, just get the training to be a good owner.
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Mav. Not to worry. Should that decision come I've always had the intent on taking some sort of training course. Should I own one it would probably spend most of its time dissasembed and securely stored. inless I follow my original plan of gun ownership I've been flirting with and collecting antiques in which case they would be displayed but locked. in a locked case.
Im not real concerned about breakins as I have a dog what I can only discribe as overprotective. LOL it was almost a year before my father in law could safely walk in the house on his own and aa nothe dog who is starting to show the same type tendancies. They are not vicious. but they definately dont like unannounced entrances from people they dont know
So I dont really need to have a loaded gun available to me at a moments notice.
In an event like this I would more or less know to possibly expect the worst.
As nutty as I may seem here sometimes I am to my own credit typically very cool and clear thinking in chaotic RL situations. I'd even venture to say that is where I am at my best. I doubt very much I would go off half cocked (no pun intended) and just start blasting away. And I know what it feels like to have a gun pointed at me, on several occasions so I am not unfamiliour with that feeling either. My only concern is the last two times I didnt feel afraid. at least not in the sense one normally would discribe fear. Not sure if that would be healthy to a situation where I was also armed or not.
To any reading this. If you think you know how you would feel with a gun pointed at you but havent actually had it done.
You dont know how you would feel. And I cant explain it other then to say that barrel that pointed at you looks as if its the size of a cannon. Now if you can imagine what it might be like having a cannon pointed at you and not knowing if the person behind it was going to fire it or not. Then you might be able to start to comprehend what it feels like.
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Whoah. Is that what's happening here?
Race?
"Somalia in Louisiana?" For real?
On like, a national scale? Totally overt? Is this why people aren't getting help? Is this why people don't care that they aren't getting help? Is this why in the face of this thing, people are saying "chose" and "welfare" and watching them die while getting "angry" with them?
My brain is exploding. There's much I don't know.
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LOL Race? No. Those are americans down there.. real honest to gosh good 'ol southern louisiana bayou white and black americans. American system produced, nurtured and educated.
behold the fruits of the nanny state.
Race, Nash, oh, no no, no. The results would be pretty much the same in any urban/city in america that's in the same condition as NO.
And what have we got? Armed bands of street thugs in the open, armed property defenders behind cover, and the US Military called into the city to try and disarm the thugs and restore civil authority.
Somalia.
Not race.
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Mmm.. yeh not bad. But I aint buyin' it.
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LOL... tell me Nash, what's with the race call? Just what about this situation would lead you believe this is a race issue? It's a cottin pickin disaster... it's beyond the scope of 'racisim'.
If the government was working from a negative racisim angle martial law would have been declared and looters would have been shot on sight at the first sign of lawless behavior.
In fact, martial law is not in effect (yet) for exactly the opposite reason.. wouldn't do for the folks in detroit to be seein film of the man sparkin up homey in nu 'awlins.
tsk, tsk, tsk. Barkin the Race tree. fer shame. I fully expect the government to go to extrordinary extreme measures to make sure that it's actions could not possibly be mis-construed as negatively racially motivated.
No matter how long it takes.
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Are you kidding me?
Out of everything you could have chosen, you compare New Orleans to Somalia, and are now seriously asking me to give you the bus ticket out of that?
I don't think so man.
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at what point in time did your history books put America into a race war in Somalia?
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Good question. It sure as hell aint in ours. Is it in yours?
Oh wait a minute....
LOL!
Silly me.
When you said "Somalia" you meant the Perfect Example of a "Nany State".
Jeeze.... How did I get it so wrong?
(who you trying to kid?)
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the difference between nu awlins and somalia?
what they're standing knee deep in.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
It's a cottin pickin disaster...
are you trying to give Nash an aneurysm?
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LOL...I think the only Race here is to see who can hijack the most.:rolleyes: :p
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Originally posted by Pooh21
are you trying to give Nash an aneurysm?
well.... yes.
How'm I doin? ;)
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Originally posted by Nash
Good question. It sure as hell aint in ours. Is it in yours?
Oh wait a minute....
LOL!
Silly me.
When you said "Somalia" you meant the Perfect Example of a "Nany State".
Jeeze.... How did I get it so wrong?
(who you trying to kid?)
How predictable. Feeling the need to go build them a new ghetto Nash?
How you twist armed thugs shooting at helocopters being compared to Somalia as a race issue is, well.......predictable.
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Originally posted by Lizard3
How predictable. Feeling the need to go build them a new ghetto Nash?
How you twist armed thugs shooting at helocopters being compared to Somalia as a race issue is, well.......predictable.
Did anyone even shoot at a helicopter?
Anyone talk to the pilot? Anyone get confirmation of that from anything helicopter-related? The commander? Anything?
I saw a military spokesman saying that they are big and loud helicopters, and you couldn't hear anything firing at you, and that nothing had struck any of thier helicopters.
Has this been confirmed?
Nice use of "ghetto", Liz.
noooo..... nothing to do with race, is there?
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LOL.. take the blue pill.
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Times like these Nash reminds me of a monkey flinging poop,
full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
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Kinda like the last two replies?
I said that nobody has officially reported any helicopters being fired on.
And it turns out that I'm taking the blue pill and signifying nothing.
Mmmkay.
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we got the helicopter shooting report from the same talking heads that informed us there was a heluva big wind that came up about sunrise on monday.
i kinda doubt the reports myself. much like the moon landings; this is just all democratic partisan rumor mongering intended to damage the administration and distract the population from massive gas price hikes to line the corporate pirate's pockets.
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Originally posted by RightF00T
LOL...I think the only Race here is to see who can hijack the most.:rolleyes: :p
shack
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Originally posted by Hangtime
i wonder if the passengers leading the counter attack on the hijackers of flight 93 were religionists.
not intended as a slam. just an observation. religious (insert yer favorite denomination here) tend to be pacifists and are not the folks that make the diffrence when a snap decison to fight, to defend, to take immediate, certain deadly action in a cusp is required for survival.
It's been my experience that religious folks tend to sob, wail, bury their faces and heads in the sand, pleading for divine intervention or guidance while others unhindered by religious taboos and indoctrination act.
Todd Beamer, the one whose 15 minute cell phone call provides the only info about what happened on Flight 93, was a devout fundamentalist christian. He graduated from Wheaton College, ranked by US News as one of the best liberal arts colleges in the country and one of the oldest nondenominational evangelical christian schools.
He is the guy whose last recorded words were "You guys ready? Let's roll!"
http://www.wheaton.edu/front/911/obits.html
And by the way, look at what I've posted -- I've passed no judgement on firearms at all. I have fired weapons, including the M16, and my dad was a US Army Ranger.
(EDIT for clarification) My comments about anarchism were intended to play the devil's advocate; I jsut dont think any variation of anarchic society is realistic. I hate the nanny state and its effects, but history has convinced me that governement able and willing to protect itself is necessary for peaceful living.
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Originally posted by Nash
Kinda like the last two replies?
I said that nobody has officially reported any helicopters being fired on.
And it turns out that I'm taking the blue pill and signifying nothing.
Mmmkay.
Well, we've heard the reports of helio copters bein fired upon, haven't you?
And since when did anything offical make it so or not?
You'd turn any dark phrase into a "race" issue if it suited your porpoise. Hence the ghetto reference, a welcome matt for you belittlers...er leberals.
Keep em fat and happy like a tick and then you can wear em like a tick coat, each one a merry vote.
Hows that for a hijack? So sorry.
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And by the way
Nash, I gotta thank you for being the one bright, humorous spot in an otherwise horrific situation. It'd be nice to think you were playing the clown just to lighten the day for us south of the border, but in any case -- thanks.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I vehemently disagree. I consider myself to be a moral person and I'm an atheist. I do not act this way because I fear the "bayonet". It is because I expect to be treated in the same way.
hmmm that sounds suspiciously like Kharma, that concept may also be found in galatians chapter 5. maybe you are confused in your atheism
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well... whatdayaknow.... people in a disaster or stressful situation are being brutal and savage and imoral..
But how can that be? All that stuff is outdated and we don't need any nasty old outdated constitution or firearms... none of that bad stuff could ever happen here... we are a whole new race of people from those silly old revolutionaries of a few centuries ago... and...
The government and police have guns... they will protect us.. they are even more highly developed humans than most right?
Seems that the ones who won't get brutalized in this will be the ones who have the courage to exercise their rights to defend themselves. Just like in the last riots in los angeles.. Just like in the next riot after this..
or maybe... like in england... we should just disarm and trust to the rule of the strongest.. old people and women and people caught being outnumbered deserve whatever happens to em..
lazs
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
No it's not ok. But if you'd be sitting on the rooftop of a sinking house for two days with your children crying for fresh water and food, you might take a shot or two in anger and frustration too. Providing you got a loaded gun handy.
'Daddy why are those relatively safe people being picked up from the dome while we're about to dehydrate or drown here?'
Then again if they were looters, kill em all. Worst scum of the earth.
Looters are scum, what does that make a Helicopter ShootINg Advocate like yourself?
Karaya
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Originally posted by Hangtime
we got the helicopter shooting report from the same talking heads that informed us there was a heluva big wind that came up about sunrise on monday.
Yeah I heard the those talking heads say that too. I also watched as they cut to a news conference where a guy in charge of these helicopters said (paraphrasing): "These are very large and loud aircraft. It'd be very difficult to know if you were fired on by small arms unless you were hit. As if right now, I have had no reports from any of my pilots that they were fired upon."
Now this could have changed. That's why I asked: Is the subject of this thread even for real?
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Well I'm with Beetle on the gun thing. No suprise there! If the same thing happened here I think there might be less chance of getting shot!!! I happen to think us Brits might deal with it a lot differently but that is conjecture I grant you.
Things look realy bad. I can't understand why the great United States can't send the navy, airforce, army to evacuate, deliver supplies, restore order etc. From the news pics over here it looks as if the rescue relief effort is a criminal shambles. I mean one of the richest nations on earth can't help its own people. Bush is asking for help from Clinton!!! Whatever next!!! When is Marshal law going to be declared? Surely a matter of time.
It put me to thinking about all that govt crud we were fed about surviving nuclear attack, in the 1980s. If the US govt can't deal with this situation how in the heck would they have dealt with nuclear war, accident? But that is another issue I spose.
Whatever its a bloody sad state of affairs.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hello Sandman,
I hope you'll forgive me if I don't get into much of a debate on this as, I'm really way too busy. Maybe later?
Actually, I accidently mixed a quote from Acton with a quote from another man, Here is the full text of the actual quote I was referring to. It was actually Robert Winthrop, Speaker of the US House of Representatives, 1849.
"All societies of men must be governed in some way or other. The less they have of stringent State Government, the more they must have of individual self-government. The less they rely on public law or physical force, the more they must rely on private moral restraint. Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them, or a power without them; either by the word of God, or by the strong arm of man."
I would expect you to disagree with this, as I probably once would have. But put simply, no matter how much we might hate this fact, the foundations for Western Ethics are based on the Ethical system of the bible. There is no basis in the "law of nature" for "loving ones neighbor as oneself" , in fact observe the wolf pack or the looters and you'll see precisely the opposite law at work.
Did we have morals before the closing of the canon? Well to a great extent all the ethics of Western civilization post-dated the closing of the canon, but certainly one could appeal to civilizations that had ethics without the bible (Ancient Greece for instance). There I'd say the essential truth of the quote above is still binding. Why did the Greeks follow their ethical system? Because even they felt it to be based on principles set down and enforced by their creators, the same could be said of all ancient civilizations.
For my part, I'd say that the vast majority of their ethics were in fact informed by the conscience that their creator gave them.
But Sandy, attempts to create a stable system of ethics in Atheism always fail. The very denial of any absolutes immediately means that they are open to the charge of being arbitrary and instead of being an unchanging code, they are as mutable as silly putty and ultimately all get swept away as desire masters restraint every time. Nietszche dismissed them as contemptible tools by which the weak seek to master the strong, Sartre and De Beauvoir both tried to work out an atheistic ethic and ultimately failed as to paraphrase Sartre, without a fixed reference point all other points are ultimately meaningless. All we have then are preferences which must be enforced by the state, but which are subject to endless flux and an accompanying "will-to-power" struggle.
So what do most Atheists do? They trade on borrowed capital. Most generally agree to follow a system of ethics, but when their preferences differ from the prevailing system...
- SEAGOON
So, really it's not "by the Bible or the Bayonet" It's "by paying for it later by going to hell for your sins or the Bayonet" both is fear induced. So... people only behave because they fear consquences ?
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Originally posted by mosgood
So, really it's not "by the Bible or the Bayonet" It's "by paying for it later by going to hell for your sins or the Bayonet" both is fear induced. So... people only behave because they fear consquences ?
C'mon Seagoon, you can hammer this softball right outta th park.:D
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Deleted. See rule #4.
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Originally posted by lazs2
or maybe you are just a short sited, selfish, and cowardly socialist with his head up his butt?
lazs
Gosh - the incredibly effective slight change to a nick combined with badly spelt name calling....a devastating attack that surely will put Skydancer in his place once and for all!!
Wonder why he forgot out the usual "girly men", "metrosexual" and references...probably an off day.
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Cool down Lazs you'll have an annuerism!
By the Way Beetle is confirmed Tory!!! We are at opposite ends of the political spectrum infact. We just happen to agree on the gun thing!
I'm very selfish, thats why I put my hand in my wallet and donated to the Tsunami, the famine in Niger and the new orleans debacle via the red cross.
Yup I'm selfish as hell
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Did you see Ken Clarke on Tv last night - am feeling bit Tory myself after heasring him....
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Yes. Do you think the Tories will be the new left under his leadership:huh Whatever next!
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Originally posted by Mukiwa
Gosh - the incredibly effective slight change to a nick combined with badly spelt name calling....a devastating attack that surely will put Skydancer in his place once and for all!!
Wonder why he forgot out the usual "girly men", "metrosexual" and references...probably an off day.
Actually, he's just trying to keep it civil. Considering his stellar credentials and your utter lack of them, I'm wondering what you've got to add to the conversation beyond your own sniping?
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Originally posted by Mukiwa
Did you see Ken Clarke on Tv last night - am feeling bit Tory myself after heasring him....
Illiteracy is ALL THE RAGE!!!! It is SOOOOO DAFT!
Karaya
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So's dyslexia! Think I do pretty well considering!
Hang, that was civil for Lazs but a bit of a flame nonetheless. Besides he called Beetle a socialist! Thats just plain wrong! ;) :lol
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Opposite ends of the spectrum? don't make me laugh. I have met beet... He is just as big a socialist as you are and just as big government oriented as you are.... he just want's to keep more of his personel wealth.
Both of you believe in democracy without human rights. You feel that the only rights are those that your government grants you by taking a poll of the people (vote). But.... if they decide to do away with that even.... well... they know best ...
and... is "spelt" a word?
lazs
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Without Human rights? What are you on today? Of course this is probably going to end up being about the human right to bear arms! I can feel it coming. So I'll stop here before the thread gets completely hijacked!
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skyprancer.... you are indeed a socialist... you belive that government should take your and everyone elses money and distribute it for social causes... your job is a perfect example... you do not believe that people can do it on their own.. You would confiscate the wealth others make and redistibute it... you would do it at a rate that increases as a person works harder.
selfish is not just giving or not giving spare change or paying your taxes.... I would respect someone who stood by the door of a home in the area with his gun and stopped looters more than someone who made a huge deal of giving $100 (97 of which goes to run the organization) to the red cross. I respect those who give money and don't come on here and brag about it too. Your giving may make you feel good but I am not impressed.
Selfish is when you don't fight for anyones rights but your own... those things that concern you.. For instance... you will fight like a wolverine to make sure that you can ride a bike with 150hp but vote in a second to remove the rights of countrymen to drive certain types of cars or defend themselves with firearms...
I would never vote to ban either or any... so? who is the selfish one of us two?
lazs
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Originally posted by storch
hmmm that sounds suspiciously like Kharma, that concept may also be found in galatians chapter 5. maybe you are confused in your atheism
It's not kharma. It's practical.
I like to be practical. ;)
It's probably blatant self interest as well.
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Just for the record not bragging just pointing out that I did what I could in response to an accusation of being entirely selfish.
By the way I don't have to stand with a gun and protect from looters. And probably wouldn't need to as theres nothing like the same gun problem but thats old and very tired ground huh?
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what? no crime in your country? why all the signs to beware of pickpockets when I was there then? why all the burglaries?
Tell me mr I don't need a gun in safe old england.... when they do mug yu or break into your house.... what are you gonna do? Call the police? get on your hands and knees with your pants down butt in the air? hit em with your cricket paddle?
You are young and faily strong right now... you may even be able to hold off one guy.... probly not tho since most people have no idea what it is like to have an aggresive attacker but... say you do.... great... what about 2? could you beat up two?? what about 30 years from now (you do think you might live that long right) ?? How will you deal with it then? Ooops... there goes that short sighted thing again...
lazs
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Lazs quit trying to make this a gun thread again. It's not about that is it?
Its about a major disaster with huge loss of life and what is going on as a result.
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Ok... it's not a gun thread... pretend there are no guns there... In fact... why don't yu pretend that you don't even know what the word guns means? Not far from the mark since you know nothing of our constitution or culture... Or any gun culture...why not just butt out?
lazs
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Of course this is a terrible disaster and it is also a lightning rod for the gun issue.
I can't believe that the looters and gangs running around with guns... wouldnt be doing the same thing with knives or clubs if they didn't have guns. It's not the guns that makes people who they are. These people are going to attack with whatever they can.
And if it's a knife, club or bare hands, it also comes down to physical attributes that aggressors sometimes have an upper hand at. Guns in the hands of normal citizens are an equalizer... period. If they weren't there, normal citezins would be outclassed in most cases.
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Difficult to chop down a helicopter with a knife!
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sheesh... we are talking about riots and looting and shooting and we are not supposed to mention guns?
Let me ask you all this...
Do you think that Americans watching what is happening down there will want to turn in their guns or do you think that more people will want to get guns?
will more guns be sold after this or will more people give up the ones they have? will the ration remain about the same? will the government want less or more gun restrictions?
I guess I am trying to say... who will the government be "protecting"?
Will gun owners give up their guns after watching this or will non gun owners go out and buy firearms in record numbers?
lazs
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Laz, thanks to you and some good advice some weeks previously, I'm already armed.. well armed for this kind of situation.
What I'm short of is emergency food and appropriate medical supplies.. and that's changing now, hour by hour. I've had a little meeting with the family, they've got their lists, and for once my liberal democratic ex-wife is listening carefully and contributing positively to the family's disaster planning.
There are lessons in this disaster for every American. We're seeing fist hand how bad it can get, how fast it can get that way and what's necessary for personal protection and family survival.
I strongly urge each and every american to take a weapons saftey course, join the NRA and arm themselves.. and I also strongly urge every American to develop a survival plan and aquire a minimum 1 week supply of food, water and medicines.
This is not a political issue. It's just common sense and practical application of assets vs threat.
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well.... it is political in the sense that our constitutional rights have been trampled on for quite a few years and that we need to reverse the trend before it is too late.
but... your point is correct.
lazs
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Violence feeds violence. It doesn't make it right though Lazs.
The difference is that in your country the situation has been blown out of hand for a looong long time. When every wacko owns a gun your only option is to arm yourself better for protection (if thats even possible). Well, or move to a safer place.
So essentially you folks chose your path, we chose ours.
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Yup. We've chosen.
We chose wisely, IMHO.
There's several thousand years of European History to draw from.. what you've accomplished in that time and what we've managed in just a few hundred...
You've decided to be subjects.. we'd rather remain citizens.
I happen to prefer our choices over yours.
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well sciaf... we certainly wouldn't want the kind of wild west shooting people down like dogs in the street that they have in Vermont, ariszona and switzerland now would we?
perhaps we should disarm like they do in Washington DC or new york city?
lazs
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Please clarify Hangtime how are we subjects? From where I stand our society gives us more freedom _and_ social backing where yours is saying every man for themselves, here go buy a gun.
If you can't live in your home safely or can't walk the streets of your city at night without having to carry a weapon, you're not free.
If you can't express yourself (sexually or otherwise) freely, you're not free. What are all those wacky laws prohibiting people from having certain sex positions at home? Or that strict censorship in the media? It's not freedom.
If a routine stop from a traffic cop means you get to crawl on your face at gunpoint, does it make you feel free? I know I've never been held at gunpoint in my life - and most likely never will.
So you see, where you see things your way I see things my way. I'm happy with our way of life like you probably are to yours. What earns you the right to call us subjects.
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The above being said, I think this is the wrong time to argue about bs like this. You have a national emergency going on and I for one feel really helpless witnessing the events taking place.
Bickering at this time is an insult to those who lost everything. If the internet could have a quiet moment, this would be one of those times to do it.
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I heard a canadian broad gave a million dollars to the cause. That's pretty cool.
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I have no problem in not argueing about it... I am sure the same facts will pop up and people will think what they want.. those who don't want guns will use this as an excuse to try to ban them or feel relieved that their country allready does.
those that do believe in the right to keep and bear arms will use this as an excuse to further their (our) cause.
in the end... one thing remains... if there are armed looters or even people shooting at rescuers... if the government sends in troops to shoot people...
Do you think Americans will sell their guns or throw em in the river or....
new people will buy em in record numbers? There are 240,000,000 guns out there... maybe more... there are at least 75,000,000 Amercians who are armed and want to stay that way... the number is growing not shrinking.
I am back to the original point.... it should be against the law to shoot at police helicopters..
beetle pointed out in a thread that having a gun in england is a mandatory 5 year sentance (using it?).... he says there aren't many because of this. Is it because people don't want guns in england or because of the severe penalties? If the penalty were a $5 fine would it still work?
again... make it against the law to shoot at people without just cause... make it a mandatory sentance... I have no problem with that...
if they catch those guys tho.... unless they are two time losers... they will be caught and released with very little punishment..
lazs
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Siaf__csf
Speaks wisely!
With respect Lazs Quit trying to turn this into a gun argument!
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$1500 for an M1A Springfleid?
I wonder if prices aren't being jacked up on weapons too considering whats going on. Damn this could get expensive.
Then again. It would be cheaper than seeing my relatively new Accord being driven away by armed low lifes
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Laz, thanks to you and some good advice some weeks previously, I'm already armed.. well armed for this kind of situation.
What I'm short of is emergency food and appropriate medical supplies.. and that's changing now, hour by hour. I've had a little meeting with the family, they've got their lists, and for once my liberal democratic ex-wife is listening carefully and contributing positively to the family's disaster planning.
There are lessons in this disaster for every American. We're seeing fist hand how bad it can get, how fast it can get that way and what's necessary for personal protection and family survival.
I strongly urge each and every american to take a weapons saftey course, join the NRA and arm themselves.. and I also strongly urge every American to develop a survival plan and aquire a minimum 1 week supply of food, water and medicines.
This is not a political issue. It's just common sense and practical application of assets vs threat.
and everyone capable did exactly what i said they would do, went to some friends/families house out of town...which is essentially the old "run to the hills" thing thats been happening for centuries...
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Originally posted by Westy
$1500 for an M1A Springfleid?
I wonder if prices aren't being jacked up on weapons too considering whats going on. Damn this could get expensive.
Then again. It would be cheaper than seeing my relatively new Accord being driven away by armed low lifes
Eyeball the Russian M1. SKS's are still about 150 -200 bucks. They ain't purdy, but they are robust solid semi-automatic military carbines. Ammo's cheap too, thousand rounds fer under a hundred bucks, delivered.
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Hello Mosgood,
Originally posted by mosgood
So, really it's not "by the Bible or the Bayonet" It's "by paying for it later by going to hell for your sins or the Bayonet" both is fear induced. So... people only behave because they fear consquences ?
I really was being honest when I said to Sandman that I don't have time at the moment to engage in any real debate on this or any other subject, and for that I sincerely apologize. We are hoping to (finally) be able to go on our first real vacation in over a year starting on the 12th and I'm trying to get everything in reasonable order before I go. By an odd coincidence, part of the reason I don't have time to discuss the reasons behind the lawless behavior is because I'm trying to figure out how we as a congregation can most effectively assist those who are suffering from it.
But your question deserves at least a quick reply. Christians do not obey God's commands out of a fear of punishment as say a slave would obey the commands of his master, rather the compelling force for the Christian is not fear, but love. If a Christian sincerely obeys the commands of Christ he does so out of love for the giver of those commands. As Christ Himself put it " If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)
This love is intimately related to what the Bible tells us happens at conversion, the believer is given a new heart, one that despises the former sinful things one previous loved, and loves the things one previously hated. As Ezekiel 36 sums it up: "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."
In the NT, this process of radical change is called in Greek pallingenesis "rebirth" or "new creation"
So then Christians obey not out of slavish fear, but because the are a new creation and they love the Father as His adopted children. As Paul says "For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father.""
This doesn't mean that the Christian will be perfect in his obedience, any more than even a loving child will be perfect in his obedience to his earthly parents. But it does mean that he will sincerely regret disobeying and more importantly that his sins have been perfectly forgiven through the finished work of Christ, and that consequently he has no reason to fear final damnation.
Thus to put it in practical terms, I don't abstain from theft, looting, adultery, etc. because I fear punishment from man or God, or because I am not subject to temptation (heaven knows thats not the case) I do it both because its not a part of who I am and because I love my redeemer and want to please him more than I want to satisfy the desires of the flesh. That same grrateful love is what should motivate Christians to serve others, and not to render evil for evil and so on.
So remove the external threat of force, the "strong arm of man", and unless he was a hypocrite all along, the Christian should still obey the commandments, not because he fears the wrath of their giver, but because he loves them and their author.
- SEAGOON
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the springfields will run from 1500 to 4000 but... they all have cast recievers... not a good thing if you shoot a lot.
I would suggest that you buy one with a forged reciever like the military ones.... if you can get one...
As an alternative... buy a M1 Garrand... late war or korean war or berreta version in 308. The gun is ded reliable and accurate and easy to use with the best trigger group in the world...The 8 round capacity is the only drawback but.... on a large caliber battle rifle this is minor. It even has a few advantages... more ammo storage per pound (clips weigh nothing compared to mags).
lazs
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I just had to go out and "have a word" with a couple of dunk thugs messing about in the neighbourhood. A few choice words were exchanged and they understood that they might consider it a good idea to leave before they were made to.
Wonder how that scene would've played out in an armed society? Bullets are a lot more lethal than expletives!!!
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or... how would it have played out if you were 70 years old or if the guys were really serious...
you ain't nothin special skyprancer... you bluffed some bullies... I can pick teams of two or three or even one for that matter that would make mincemeat of you now.... how well will you do when your are 70?
How bout your wife? she kick all their butts too like you hero?
Again... we run right into your shortsighted and selfish attitude "I am young and strong so to hell with everyone else"
here... Millions of times a year old and otherwise helpless people use fireams to prevent crime and to prevent being a victim... That is how it plays out in an "armed society"
While your population is hiding under the bed while burglars ransack the house.... ours are pointing guns at em.
lazs
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Nope what I hope is that when I am 70 some other guy who cares about his community will do it too. I went out there because I know I could and that there are those in my community who couldn't. I don't believe in looking after me and my own. I live in a community and believe in standing up and being counted for and on belhalf of those around me. The alternative we all just watch and go OOh how terrible. Those guys were not threatening me or my property or my wife directly they were attacking people driving through the neighbourhood and tramping all over an elderly neighbours property and a guy on holidays building project. I went out there cos I have a sense of community rather than protect me and my own.
Yeah I bluffed em. Yeah there are people out there bigger and tougher. Yeah I'm nothing special. What I am is someone who won't sit by and do nothing to help out my neighbours and fellow man when I'm still able to. And yeah there is a risk in that. But not as great as if we were all armed. That was my point. Our relatively gun free society is a safer place!
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well... People who go out and do something are indeed a benifiet to society... you got lucky is all I am saying... you shoulda by all rights got beaten to a pulp or worse.
Stats here show that people who resist violence with a gun are about 11% likely to get injured... those who resist with bare hands are 5 times more likely to be seriously injured...
Again... I depend on my neighbors too... millions of em a year point guns at bad guys.
It sound like your society is safer because your criminals are not as violent not because of guns.... you confronted a couple of thugs with bare hands... that is extremely stupid and you are just plain lucky... I don't know if you have ever been in a fight with a couple of guys that were serious but I guarantee that you would never have gone after two or more serious bad guys with your bare hands ever again if you had.
And.... what about when those guys go home and think about what happened and think they might need to dish out some payback for you humiliating them in front of others? I hope that you haven't endangered yourself or your wife or your property.... I do sincerely doubt that they like and respect you after this little affair tho.
lazs
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Nope I had the good sense to make sure I didn't let them see which house I came from or where I lived. Yeah it was risky but if all the guys on my street who were able had come out those few idiots would've been seriously outnumbered. Trouble is nowadays we are all too busy hiding behind our doors, too scared incase the very thing you talk about happens and thats why those idiots are winning. We are divided and scared and they rule!
Maybe it wasn't too bright a thing to do but I'm sick and tired of those kind of people feeling invulnerable. I called the cops too. that was the Sensible thing to do I think.
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They may have left to keep from drowning in the testosterone.
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:lol :lol could be
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calling the cops is the sensible thing to do if..... you need a police report for the insurance. or... you just enjoy talking to the police... otherwise....proven pretty worthless.
Maybe someone will come out and help while they are stomping you into mush and maybe not... after all... they are seeing what happens to unarmed people who fight back..... Nope... they will call the cops.
And... you seem more than a little naive about criminals and thugs... you go to work.... you have a routine... you live where the incident happened... you have no spare time and no burning hate for them... none of these things are true for the guys you just made lose face.
Believe me... they either allready know where you live or will soon enough.
lazs
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Fear is not something I like to live in!!
Glad theres no guns though ;)
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Zulu, how about you take a trip to the US, say round-trip a few states around California, then stop by Lazs' and let him show you what he means instead of rationalizing from London or wherever over the net...
You're supposed to be an open minded, fair and balanced type, so go on and put your money where your keyboard is.. you've nothing to lose.
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Would love to moot. One problem I've not got a huge unlimited wallet and theres other prioritys right now but thanks for the offer! ;) Oh its Birmingham actualy. Funny realy how its ok for you guys to chat on about your lives what happens over there etc but when I or others do who are not US based we get the old shut up treatment! unless I'm reading you wrong in which case I'm sorry.
Lazs believe it or not I kind of understand your viewpoint but I have to ask what would you do in this case. Don't give a ,blow em away wiith a thirty eight and thats why the USA is great ( hey that rhymes! ) answer what would you have done given the same circumstances? Seriously you seem to think I made a mistake, so what would you have done?
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I dont want you to stray from your opinion.. Stick to your guns as you might say.
The matter is insuring satisfaction, happiness etc. You might bet on anyone else than yourself to insure these, but the one and only guarantee to have them is to be self-sufficient, and if everyone were, the world'd be a much nicer and healthier place.
One's freedom ends where it meets others'. Owning guns doesn't have any bearing on others' freedom. Misuse of anything, purple crayons or kalashnikovs, with respect to that boundary of freedom is just a matter of civility.
There'll always be law-breakers, why not give those law-abiders at least an equal chance of survival?
Having a black-belt friend isn't anymore inherently dangerous or anarchic than having a gun, both are kept in check by common sense and courtesy, discipline, whatever you want to call it.
Don't tread on others' freedom and everything'll be fine.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
. Funny realy how its ok for you guys to chat on about your lives what happens over there etc but when I or others do who are not US based we get the old shut up treatment!
Ummmmm.......maybe because you are babbling about something you know absolutely nothing about and pertains to you in no way?
You are grasping the idea but not getting a grip on the actual concept. :)
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I'm sure it's very very hard to grasp to someone who hasn't lived in a low-gun enviroment before. The higher the percentage of gun owners of the population, the higher the chance of a gun ending to someone who is mentally unstable now or in near future.
A gun is a means to project power. I stress the word project. This can't be done with melee weapons, not very effectively anyway.
If the NO situation would have happened in UK there would be no way on earth that the rescue workers would have got shot at. They might have been waving sticks at them, having nothing else to project with.
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Exceptions dont make the rules...
I grew up in France, where the only civilians guns I saw were either hunters' in the countryside, or delinquents' smuggled or stolen from cops in bad neighbourhoods.
Spent about 4 years in Canada, then 6 in the US. Talking with family while I'm back in a french overseas territory for a year more, they automaticaly reject the idea. They dont disagree with it so much as fear it. The only people who seem to understand are with few exceptions those who've been around guns, ex-mil etc.
I'm moving back asap.
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ok... fair enough... but so that we understand each other.... I don't feel that I live in fear any more than you do. I feel that I am more prepared and maybe a little more world wise and.... for a few more years anyway... I bet I can handle myself in the next fight at least as well as you could.
Having said that... How would I have handled the situation? I don't know... you never really explained what the "drunken thugs" were really doing.
If they were just being noisy and such... I would yelled at em to shut up.. maybe called the cops... they like to respond to drunks...
I would have either not confronted em or, made them come onto my property... if they were injuring someone I would have gone out and confronted them with a weapon. preferably a firearm of sufficent caliber to end fights quickly.
and moot... thank you for honoring mine and others rights to keep and bear arms.
lazs
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
If the NO situation would have happened in UK there would be no way on earth that the rescue workers would have got shot at. They might have been waving sticks at them, having nothing else to project with.
The only problem with that is it didn`t happen in the UK, it happened in Nawlins. :0
Beleive me , the time is fast approaching where the UK will see more and more guns and see them used more and more often. It`s a wide open illegal market that is certainly not being ignored and is being taken advantage of.
The difference is, there will be no guns in the hands of the "good guys" because that choice and freedom was willingly given up.
The world is rapidly advancing to be a very dangerous place to live.
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Lazs, getting my shooting license as we speak.
Requires taking part in seasonal target competitions, i'm being tutored for a year.
It's a national police club, so they only let me shoot .22 so far, but plinking that at 25m (75ft) and compressed air at 10m is already addictive.
They're pretty strict on starters' safety routines and discipline. Really fun all the same.
Thread derailed, sorry :).
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But if it should happen in the British Isles, old chap, I am certain Her Majesty's Government will act with dispatch and give the rounders a sound thrashing!
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Originally posted by Shuckins
But if it should happen in the British Isles, old chap, I am certain Her Majesty's Government will act with dispatch and give the rounders a sound thrashing!
:D
RightO!
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Pip Pip, ya'll!
:D
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Originally posted by moot
Lazs, getting my shooting license as we speak.
Requires taking part in seasonal target competitions, i'm being tutored for a year.
It's a national police club, so they only let me shoot .22 so far, but plinking that at 25m (75ft) and compressed air at 10m is already addictive.
They're pretty strict on starters' safety routines and discipline. Really fun all the same.
Thread derailed, sorry :).
Tu as moins de 18 ans ?
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Lazs they were drunk and fooling around damaging peoples property and trying to stop the traffic Threatening drivers who stopped. Fairly aggressive and frightening some members of our community and destroying some guys building project. They weren't south central type gang bangers or weapon wielding thugs. So yeah I did as you would, I yelled at em told em to bugger off and then called the cops.
But the point was if I knew they might be carrying a gun that could hit me from some distance I wouldn't have been able to do that unless I had a weapon too in which case a simple situation would've got very complicated and deadly very quickly. The point being that our relative lack of guns makes things a bit easier to deal with and a whole lot less dangerous!
Now as regards the US I don't think you guys could turn the clock back and get rid of guns. Not without some pretty heavy handed search and destroy all weapons type of activity. So I guess you guys are stuck with it. But that isn't neccessarily a great thing. You are fond of telling us we're lily livered softys or some kind of neo facist country for having strict limitations on firearms. But you don't get it any more than you think I do. We don't have to carry weapons own weapons and we are secure in the knowledge that people who do are few and far between, and though things aint perfect, I'm a whole lot happier with that than the armed society you got going over there. I think our version is better and I believe I'm entitled to that view! You seem unable to accept that another way to the good ole USA might actualy work. Honestly I feel sad for you guys having to be armed to protect each other. Thats no society I would want to live in.
Now that'll do I think. Before I get lambasted for telling you guys what I think. Just remember Lazs and others its you guys who keep raising the guns issue and making barbed comments about our way of life govt etc too, this things swings both ways. If you don't want to hear another point of view why keep hijacking threads with the gun thing?
Oh and I'm not some mucho macho wannabe testosterone fuelled hero. I'm just a regular bloke who doesn't want to let the dumb, bad and anti social people run my life! And I reckon I'm one of a majority who I wish would get up and form a coalition of the good, against this minority of scumbags with no respect and no idea of responsibility.
Someone I forget who had a sig that said.
"All it takes for evil to triumph is for a few good men to do nothing", or something like that anyhow!
Few rant over. Sorry bout that .
:mad: :aok
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Violence feeds violence. It doesn't make it right though Lazs.
The difference is that in your country the situation has been blown out of hand for a looong long time. When every wacko owns a gun your only option is to arm yourself better for protection (if thats even possible). Well, or move to a safer place.
So essentially you folks chose your path, we chose ours.
What path is that? Wars started on a continent?
Karaya
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Wow, skydancer if that were to happen here I wouldn't even THINK about going out on my own and doing what you did. And I live in Hawaii. You'd most likely have been given the eye by each of them, who would've then proceeded with "What!? You like false crack?!?!" or some other chain of cussing. All of them would then get up and begin to move towards you. At that point it would be prudent to run. You would most likely face beer bottles, knives, pipes, machetes, baseball bats, tire irons if they were really mad. You might be staring at the wrong end of an illegal firearm if you just confronted a gang. My probable course of action would be to immediately call the police and wait, hoping they don't notice my house in between the time it takes for the police to get here. If I were armed it would just give me an option if the police didn't get here in time and they began to break windows and threaten people. Going out there (and off your property) pointing your firearm at them and being "sheriff" would STILL NOT be an option, except under the circumstances Lazs mentioned.
Where you and beet1e live is just plain DIFFERENT. No comparison if your "thugs" are really that docile.
Back to the thread, I watched some of the coverage today which showed National Guard heavy trucks plodding through the floodwaters loaded with supplies. And service helicopters of every variety bringing supplies, and whisking people out. Thanks to the NG and various law enforcement agencies who were able to start getting things under control again.
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Ah hah masherbrum now please explain how private gun ownership and/or low class differences relate to continental wars.
In fact, large poor class differences (like in US today) was the reason why Hitler could gain so much power and start the wars in the first place - to boost German economy and calm down the troubled lower class.
Where you and beet1e live is just plain DIFFERENT. No comparison if your "thugs" are really that docile.
Hey you're starting to finally get the message! Our society is that much more peaceful. No gangbanging or constant fear of losing ones life. :aok And keep in mind the UK is like a friggin jungle compared to the scandinavian countries.
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Hey Siaf, what are you on about don't you know things are always better over there ;) :lol
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Ah hah masherbrum now please explain how private gun ownership and/or low class differences relate to continental wars.
In fact, large poor class differences (like in US today) was the reason why Hitler could gain so much power and start the wars in the first place - to boost German economy and calm down the troubled lower class.
Hey you're starting to finally get the message! Our society is that much more peaceful. No gangbanging or constant fear of losing ones life. :aok And keep in mind the UK is like a friggin jungle compared to the scandinavian countries.
Actually, I'm not just starting to get the message. It's just silly why the same ppl argue the same stuff over and over again. I personally don't care what your laws are over where you live, because I don't live there.
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Oh come on its fun having a bit of a good old banter and argument. The problem comes when we take it all a bit too seriously!
We know you don't care just as I don't realy care if you have guns or not. Its just fun to argue! Though i agree the topic is wearing a bit thin.
or is it just me :confused: :lol
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And to hijack my own thread.....
First bar opened back up on Bourbon Street...lol
ahh - good to see em getting their priorities back together. :D
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Blimey! Now theres pluck. WTG
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skyprancer.... let me ask you this... Do you think that all the unarmed citizens that were being abused and threatened and harassed in the situation yu described.... do you think that they might be described at that point as.... "living in fear"?
If the thugs had guns... they would then have to be total losers to be bringing so much attention since they probly could not legaly have em... they could not hit me with concealable handguns from the 50 to 75 feet away ( but I could probly hit them) They would also not stand a chance with me shooting at then from cover inside my house while they were trying to break in if they wanted to push it that far.
When the cops came the thugs would get a weapons charge... with luck.. they would be two time losers or... they would tried to break into my house... either way.... a lot of citizens would not be "living in fear" from that group at least...
I don't really see how you have helped the problem in the least in that situation. They know that they can cause problems as much as they like and the only thing stopping them is that they have to bug out before the cops get there....
tough as you are and all... I don't really think that criminal drunks in pairs or tripples or more are tooooo frieghtened of mixing it up inthe middle of the street with you.
lazs
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Lazs2,
Just make sure you'd be taking shifts with yer neightbours.
Otherwise they'd just wait for you to fall asleep.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Hey you're starting to finally get the message! Our society is that much more peaceful. No gangbanging or constant fear of losing ones life. :aok And keep in mind the UK is like a friggin jungle compared to the scandinavian countries.
Oooh, to own a pair of rose-colored glasses and view the world beyond them! The problem is...getting that sand out of your ears...
Munich sociologist Ewald Pfleger sees a pattern of denial symbolized by "the bizarre, longtime habit by many German media outlets to give big play to stories about serious juvenile crimes in the United States but considerably less prominent treatment if they occur here."
A recent study by the University of Loblenz-Landau showed that 96,200 pupils across the country are injured annually by violence at school.
More and more pupils are reportedly carrying brass knuckles, switchblades and pistols to classrooms to protect themselves, or to use against each other. A recent survey in Munich indicated that 1 in 6 secondary school pupils is scared to enter the playgrounds during recess, fearing violence by other pupils.
Another alarming aspect to the juvenile crime wave is the number of extreme rightist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic crimes. Such offenses shot up by 50 percent to nearly 14,000 last year, and 70 percent of the perpetrators were under 21. Half of the crimes were committed in the former East Germany, even though only one fifth of the total population live there.
There is also growing debate about one component of the juvenile crime wave long a taboo subject in this country hosting more than 8 million foreigners: the apparent high proportion of immigrant youths among offenders. "Some news media shy away from dealing with the fact that non-German youth are committing a disproportionally large number of offenses, fearing that would fan the latent xenophobia in our country," commented Munich's respected Sueddeutsche Zeitung.
French officials say that youths burned about twenty cars and stoned public transport overnight in working class suburbs of Strasbourg.
The violence broke out after a pop concert on Saturday night and repeated similar incidents in previous years over the Christmas and New Year period, despite expanded youth programs.
During the whole of last year five-hundred cars were burned in Strasbourg - a hundred more than the year before.
Correspondents say that youth violence in many cities across France has usually occured in poor immigrant neighbourhoods with high unemployment.
Right-wing violence against foreigners in Germany has increased dramatically over the last year. The situation is particularly dangerous for foreigners living in eastern Germany—this was the conclusion drawn by Federal Interior Minister Otto Schily (Social Democratic Party—SPD) in a recent press interview.
Official figures covering the whole year are still not available, however, politicians responsible for the situation are already sounding the alarm—mainly as a means of diverting any suggestion of their own culpability in the matter.
Schily announced in the Hamburg magazine Die Woche that xenophobic acts of violence have increased by 40 percent in the last 12 months. In total, 13,753 criminal offences committed by right-wing extremists were registered in the period from January to November 2000. In the same period in 1999, the figure stood at 9,456 offences. Violence against foreigners rose from 397 cases to 553. Schily reported, “Killings, bodily injuries, arson and bomb attacks constituted 18 percent of all xenophobic crimes”. More than two-thirds of the convicted offenders were younger than 21 years-of-age.
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2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.