Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on September 01, 2005, 03:04:38 PM
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I just learned something fascinating. Apparently, if you have a fixed wing pilot certificate, the FAA minimums for getting your rotary certificate are different.
Instead of 40 hours minimum (starting from nothing), it's something like 16 hours minimum before checkride. Of course, you'd probably need more time to learn, but even if it took you 30 hours before you were ready, that's a few thousand dollars in savings.
So for about $4K, I could potentially get a rotary license... I am intrigued.
My learning priority list goes something like this:
1. Tailwheel - cheap
2. Complex - cheap
3. Instrument - espensive
4. Multi-Engine - not so espensive as #3, but not cheap
5. Commercial - Lucy, you gotta lotta hours to get first.
6. CFI
Perhaps I could slip the Rotary endorsement in there somewhere...
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4K? Now that's cheap!
Here if you have the PPL/A, you need 30 hours in order to do the checkride.
That's 30 hours x 220 Euro/hr = 6600 Euro. Still cheaper than IR, but much more expensive than ME.
Funny thing is that we don't have a rating for tailwheel or complex. Is that a rating or just a course you can take at a school?
Daniel
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Commercial is only a couple hundred hours plus a test. Not too tough, but it takes time unless you have someone paying for your hours. Even instrument can be done "on the cheap" by cheating using non-certified simulators to enhance your working knowledge so you get more out of your actual flight and certified sim time.
My Dad flew only a few hours a month and even he got to the 300 hour mark before losing interest and not flying enough to stay current. It just takes time if you aren't real serious about getting the ratings in a hurry.
But cheap is relative, and it's always easier if you've got someone (a future employer for example) paying for it. I knew a few guys who flew right seat in fedex puddle jumpers for about a buck an hour, just so someone else would pay for their flight time. But you gotta give up your regular job to do that so it's usually only the kids that can afford to do it that way.
If you didn't marry rich, you're probably gonna have to pay for your ratings a nickel at a time. Regardless of what you do, do NOT let your basic skills degenerate. At the very least, rent the cheapest plane in town and get a dozen hours a month, otherwise you'll just be a danger to yourself and others.
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Tailwheel and complex aren't ratings, they're just endorsements, so probably the same as in Spain.
30 hours is probably more realistic from some of what I've read, depending on: Use of simulators/natural knack/quality of training, etc. I'm sure there are guys that can pass their checkride in 10 hours, and others that are still shaky at 50 or worse.
I'm gonna rent the 172 one of these days and fix my night currency. Haven't flown at night in months, gotta change that so I can take some friends up. There's a perfect field about 15 miles from where I fly for it, EUG. Mahlon Sweet is a big lit field with no obstructions around, and it's class D until late in the evening. A good combination for cleaning some of the rust off.
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shhh dont tell anyone, the school here can get commercial at 126 hours total time. Its run by delta connection and also has self examination authority on private, intrument and a few others. Much cheaper then doing it part 61 and getting 250 hours.
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Part 141?
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If you think renting a Cessna or a Piper is expensive, wait until you price the hourly cost of even a very basic little chopper. The last price I heard about 3 years ago in Tucson was over $120.00 an hour, dry.
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Probably is Part 141. Other schools I know of like that have a selection process for students too. Most US flight schools have their own examiners or at least a tame examiner on call.
I haven't considered getting a rotary licence. But I was thinking of getting a couple of lessons in a chopper. There a are couple of rotary flight schools at my local field. One uses Schweizers the other Robinsons. I like the look of the Schweizers which is after all the old Hughes 300. Really agricultural. There seems to be more helicopters than aeroplanes at the field these days. What will all the newly rich Irish people desperate to spend their money. Particularly on Robinsons. They're breeding like flies :lol
No I think I'll stick to the fixed wing for now. The people I fly with right now have got three Citations for charters. I was standing there talking to other pilots when the boss came up and said we all need to get our FAA Commericals done. So we can be type rated on the Citations which are N registered. I pointed out that I don't work for him. 'Not yet' he said but when you do you'll need it.
I guess that amounts to a job offer:flying jets! :cool: :cool:
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Cheapest helicopter around here goes for $220/hr and it's a little bubble front schweizer.
They also rent a Hughes that I couldn't afford to start.
Delta Connection Academy
FlightSafety Academy
ATP Fast Track
Ari-Ben Aviator
Gulfstream Academy...All crooks who are doing their parts in saturating the pilot market with minimum qualification knuckleheads and shuffling them into 'reseved' airline First Officer jobs at a whopping $18,000-$23,000/yr while ringing the debt gong at around $100,000+
It's not the student's fault either...they're caught up in jet fever that they'll lose all their dignity just to drive an RJ on poverty wages (at least i'm flying piston powered airplanes for poverty wages...not so much a class struggle!) and buy into it being a 'cool job' so it doesn't require compensation. Ugh...I won't even continue since it'd be a hijack of all hijacked threads.
If you want to know more do a google search for "410 it dude" "Jefferson City" and "Pinnacle" and you'll see what I mean.
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sorry golfer, they arent raping people unless they choose to get raped. Flying costs are flying costs.....your path to your rating and getting paid to fly is the same as everyone elses. Only difference is the job options at the end. Flying RJs with the regionals or flying spamcams out little airports, its your choice the path you want to go.
Do you want to fly airlines? if so then might as well start now. FO pay for all the regionals stinks, no matter who trains you. The FAA approves of the self examing process not the schools, dont like it blame the FAA. All the regionals are hiring like mad and they set the hour requirements, not the schools. If Expressjet is hiring at 600 TT dont blame the school for filling the need. Is it expensive? hell yes it is, nothing in flying is cheap.
Having been through 2 flights schools....and the one I am in now is offered by the local college, delta only does the flight portion. The flying is dramatically different. The old program you may get done in 3 years with all your ratings, its was horrible. Now its probably a year with all the ratings if you are committed and apply yourself. That involves flying a minimum of 5 times a week. They also have flow through agreements with embry riddle here locally to finish your 4-year degree if you so choose. Before it was eventually get your ratings then find a job on you own, either towing banners or hopefully getting picked up as an instructor then just building time till you can go to the airlines. Pretty cheesy way to live. Currently I am studing the RJ manual that is provided by continental, and given by continental trained people.
Now luckily for me its all free. Lovely little program from the state of Texas called the hazlewood act. Texas veterans get free school. So 40-50k of training free.
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Originally posted by Golfer
If you want to know more do a google search for "410 it dude" "Jefferson City" and "Pinnacle" and you'll see what I mean.
!!!
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/CVR_Factual.pdf
That's ****ed up!
Why did they lose both engines? Above ceiling? What does "410 it" mean?
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41,000 feet, the ceiling of the commuter jet. I haven't visited the link, but by the context, I'm guessing it has to do with the flameout on the taxi flight.
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yep its the one of the guys taking it to max height. More of an airline policy/pilot issue then flight school issue. They make a statment in there about saving fuel and I wonder if pinnacle was giving bonuses on being below their fuel profile.
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My tuition is battled in the form of cash brought in from fueling the past few months. In fact, today was my last day on the tarmac. Not sure about Pinnacle appreciating additional arrival fuel, but I've always appreciated the occasional FOB. ;)
As for the recording in that PDF, were the two pilots killed? When did this happen?
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It happened toward the end of last yeard, October I believe without visiting my friend Google.
410 refers to Flight Level Four-One-Zero meaning 41,000 feet. That is the maximum altitude of the CRJ, of which I'm sure you're familiar as a fellow "retired" line guy :) The CRJ can only make 410 when it's lightly loaded, it's ISA or colder, the moon is full and the stars are aligned properly. The accident was on a ferry flight from A to B when the pilots, the only two on board, took the airplane up to FL410.
I've got a few friends at Pinnacle, one of whom wrote a LOR for me when I went down for an interview. The captains they had during the interview process were all real great to talk to and seemed to know their stuff. The friend who wrote a letter for me is nearing his captain upgrade and has met a few knuckleheads there. Most of these guys have come from the Gulfstream Academy and if I'm not mistaken the FO on this flight was as well. Regardless, the captain being as experienced as he was to be Captain (Pinnacle required 3500TT, 1500 turbine and an exemption to that if you had 500hours in Pinnacle jets IIRC...I can't be certain I didn't take notes during the powerpoint) shouldn't have been there.
I've read the transcripts a few times and the fuel flow they're referring to isn't them trying to save money (on the line I'm told that some of the pilots are slowing down because the block times scheduled are out of whack) its them noticing the effect of the altitude on fuel flow. The higher you go in a jet the less fuel you burn because the air is less dense and to keep the ratio of fuel:air ideal you require less fuel in terms of pounds of fuel per pound of air while keeping the same volume flowing through the engine. This works for any airplane (with an exception in some cases in some turbocharged models just as a disclamer) and is a reason that jets don't go cruising around at 12,000 ft. They mention that they've seen the fuel flow at 4000lbs/hr (about 600 gallons/hr) and up there they were burning about 2000lbs/hr (roughly 300 gallons/hr). The problem you encounter with high altitude flying is your indicated airspeed decreases and if the air isn't "thick" or dense enough to hold up the jet...it'll stall. That's what happened here. They allowed the airplane to stall...even after commenting how nose high the airplane was.
This incident wouldn't have happened with passengers on board because they would have never made it to FL410 in the first place. The pilots both died in the crash. They started from 8 miles high, put all their eggs in the 'we can restart' basket and didn't make a runway. They averaged a 2000ft/min rate of decent. That's from the first master warning horn signaling engine flame out at 21:54:38 to the crash at 22:15:06. Thats 41,000 feet in 20:28. Not having flown one and asking around, you've got a short window and strict paramaters when the engines will relight using the APU. You need to meet temperature, airspeed, N1 and altitude requirements that start at only 13,000ft. 13000ft to the ground at 2000ft/min ROD is 00:06:30.
The good news is no passengers died. The good news is that there is a lot to learn from this with regard to not properly training already inexperienced crewmembers. Like Dnil mentioned...ExpressJet hires at 600hrs Total Time with 100hrs Multiengine as their published minimums. Pinnacle is 1000/150 (i think?) with preference given to Gulfstream Academy grads...a practice no longer in place following several violations of P-56 (the white house's airspace) on departure from Regan National in DC and several pilots asking for 300kts at 6,000 feet (Speed limit over the USA for civil aircraft is 250kts below 10,000 feet without ATC approval...which you don't really get unless you've got a good reason. Shedding ice in a Heavy airliner for example is a good reason)
Dnil like I said...it's not the student's fault. It's the system at the moment and it's going to get someone else killed. What quality of experience do you expect to have a 600hr "fast-track" wonder to have? I can cite ATP as an example since I went there. It's a training bubble. The kids come in with their private and are taken through the "ATP way" and get only the bare minimum qualifications they require to become bare minimum CFIs. They then (if lucky) CFI for ATP until they have 500 hours. Before reaching 500hrs...if they attend the ATP Regional Jet Standards course for a discounted price of only $1,000 (what's that when they already have a $50,000+ loan) they are permitted to interview at ExpressJet at 500 hrs. When I was there in February, the ATP instructors said they've got a 100% interview/hire rate. The cool thing is...I had more actual instrument time than the entire instructor staff combined (and I was a 750hr wonder at the time!) and during the flights they'd ask me dumbfounded why I wasn't heading to CoEx and 'bothering' with getting my CFIs.
During my time there I was also complimented on my ability to consitantly and smoothly land a seminole, my voice on the radio, situational awareness and common sense approach to talking through maneuvers. [Sarcasm mode on] It's reassuring when I fork over several thousand dollars for a program that the instructors are asking me for tips on basic airmanship.
It's also great when they proclaim that they never had to 'stoop' to work the flight line, when that was easily the most fun and educational job I've ever had. None had seen an airplane with it's cowling off, none could describe what a vaccuum pump looked like and none had any idea where the propeller accumulators were located.
There are some good people at the regionals, but there are enough bad, dorky or foolish ones that I think I'll keep doing what I'm doing and keep networking my way into a corporate job.
Best of luck to you and do all you can to learn everything you can because you're not getting the whole scoop from DCA. Email (cfigeorge@earthlink.net) is always open as well. Again...good luck.
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again doesnt matter where you are trained. The interview process for these airlines is supposed to take care of it. If the hopeful applicants cant pass the pre hire flights and tests then they wont get hired. This isnt ATPs fault or any of the other academys. Its the airlines that are hiring these "knuckleheads". Its not like they get the magic hours and are instantly placed. All they guarantee is an interview, thats it. Its up to the airlines to hire them after they have flown/talked to them. As you know there are plenty of knuckleheads all throughout aviation.
Personally I have no interest in flying airlines. I did scheduling for new eagle pilot training and have several relatives/friends who fly with various carriers. The lifestyle looks to be zero fun for me. I just want to pay the bills and live close to my kids.
EDIT: Golfer do you have any interest in airline flying? I know quite a bit about DCA and the end Regional airline program doesnt sound appealing to me, even though it would be free. It is fun learning all about the RJ tho.
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In Europe you can have 300 hour pilots sitting in the right seat of Boeings and Airbus' having paid for their own type rating and earning only flight pay for six months. Luckily they are usually matched with experienced Captains.
One day it will all end in tears.
I read about the 410 incident. I was under the impression that they aimed for FL410 on the ferry flight because being at that flight level had some kind of cachet. It was a joyride that went wrong once the engines flamed out and couldn't be restarted.
What always annoys me about flying is that all the best flying jobs pay lousy and the most boring pay the best. Everyone aspires to be an airline pilot because it's the only way to pay the bills. A guy I flew with today gave up his job as an Engineering manager to instruct, which he loves but he has to buy and sell cars to make ends meet. Another guy I met quit flying A330's across the Atlantic to become an instructor. He says he works longer hours but gets to sleep in his own bed every night. He was offered the chance to go back. He said he would but only if he could be rostered to fly once a year!
The one and only regional here does pay quite well. But of course you pay for your own type rating when they accept you. From what I've heard it's a good outfit to work for too.
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No interest here in airline flying. I actually talked about that to my current 'employer' who is the owner of a company that I fly their company Mooney for. We were in a 172 today just flying around in circles enjoying the first direct crosswind here that I can remember. 6-8kts gusts to maybe 12 and it was a lot of fun for me...it must be my sunny disposition :)
Whether it's been aerobatics, warbirds, high performance cutting edge singles (Cirrus and Lancair) or just droning around in a 172...I got into aviation because I enjoy it and it's pure fun. Regardless of what I'm flying I'm happy...but I'm also a professional. I bill for ground instruction, I bill by the clock and not the hoobs and I charge a reasonable daily rate for contract pilot services in addition to expenses. I make more now than I could in a few years at an airline, have more and better leads in the corporate and charter side of the world and am having a lot more fun than I could at an airline.
I finally meet insurance minimums for a company in which I would start in Citation IIs and V-Ultras and a friend of mine just took a resume in for me along with a sparkling review! He flies a Citation X and has been with the company for over 10 years and he sold me on the job once I convinced him I wasn't airline bound.
Pay for that job (my first turbine employment) as a First Officer is over $10,000/yr more than a regional pilots first year pay and will increase nicely over time. One nice thing is I'll earn a type in the V-Ultra with II differences (or vise versa) right off the bat rather than just being a gear thrower. An expense account, stowing away my golf clubs (can't jumpseat with my golf bag!) and frequent visits to the Bahamas and Palm Beach where I used to live and left a few friends.
Still...I've talked about corporate flying and how great I think flying a G-IV or G-V would be and had a CRJ gear thrower ask me why I didn't want to join an airline. What I disagree with is the 'preferred' hiring and it is preferred hiring because Chautauqua for one example I know has seats reserved for Delta Connection Academy graduates in both the ERJ-145s and ERJ-170s. That's buying a job and it's the people in charge of the 'fast track' schools that I hope have a special place reserved in hell get what's coming to them for shafting young impressionable pilots and convincing them that they need to part with their money, credit and quality of life just for the honor of flying a regional jet.
cpxxx...you're exactly right. It was a joyride and the folks at Pinnacle didn't like it very much when I asked them what they ammended in their training schedule following the incident and what they were doing to prevent that from happening again. 2 captains saw it as a condescending question and one of the assistant chiefs and another captain were very forthcoming with the truth. I knew from my buddy there (the one about to upgrade) that they added additional ground classes and simulator events (sessions) to the training syllabus following the accident.
That's the answer I got from these guys and the other guys in the class had jaw-dropped faces like I was stirring the pot. I wasn't disappointed with turning down the class date. I interviewed on a Tuesday and they called while I was in the airport waiting for my flight home to offer me a training class for the following Monday! No options for a later date. I told the woman I wouldn't leave my current job with less than 2 weeks notice and I wouldn't do that with them in the future. After a few minutes of negotiating I was given a choice. The following Monday or nothing. I thanked her for her time and went back to my C.C. and Coke with the interview group in the airport bar.
I like to think things are improving at Pinnacle because they learned the hard way. I hope the industry took it as a wakeup call but I don't know if it will take an accident with passengers on board for something to happen that will require airline pilots to be qualified with experience rather than just 'kwik-e-mart' flight school experience.
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You've flown a Lancair? I'm envious! I've fallen in love with the Columbia 400, and the normally aspirated ones are hardly slouches either.
I'm planning on a flight to Bend, OR sometime soon so I can check out their planes in person.
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still an experienced captain onboard regionals though and the "kwik-e" types are passing the regional training. If they werent skilled enough to fly the autopilot I dont see them getting hired. At eagle we had B-1 pilots in the FO classes right along with the spamcan jockies. Both making the exact same pay doing the exact same job. The airllines are making the choices here. Once the pilot pool is large enough again the hour minimums will rise I am sure. But truthfully monitoring the autopilot on these planes aint exactly tough.
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You have the right attitude Golfer. The A330 pilot I mentioned told me he had trouble convincing pilots to enjoy the aircraft they're flying right now not constantly looking forward to flying a 737 or whatever. I have to say I've drifted towards that opinion lately. I have never earned a red cent for flying but at this stage I don't really care as long as I can keep flying. Even if only as a voluntary flight instructor in a flying club. But the possibility of flying Citation II's has popped up lately. Which does look very attractive.
I don't really care anymore if I don't get the magic seat in a jet. I flew a 172 yesterday to a city 100 miles away to make an appointment. Landed on a very short strip (416 metres) with a direct crosswind. Went to the appointment and later met a friend in a pub. An hour and a half after sitting in the pub 100 miles away, I was home. An excellent day out. It really doesn't matter what you fly as long as you enjoy it. Even a supposedly boring Cessna 172.
It took me a while to get around to that kind of thinking. But flyin' is flyin' as they say.
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If you're going to be flying Citation II's or flight instructing...make sure you get paid! I'm going to rip the pub comment out of context and say "only in ireland" can you find pilots who will fly to a pub (for a pint) and then fly back home :p
Crazy irish...uhh...dudes? :)
I know I'm not up to snuff on irish customs...but over here we don't have 'voluntary' instructors on a business as usual type schedule. Young Eagles, Make a wish and Angel Flight are examples of when volunteering is the norm and very much appreciated. I spent about $30,000 for my ratings, over half out of pocket and the rest a student loan and by god I'm going to get paid for my time!
They're passing training alright Dnil...I'm not saying that the flight schools are the only problem. It's all one big fuster-cluck and it's going to get somebody killed. Anybody can fly the airplanes when everything's working fine...but its the kwik-e-mart dudes who don't have any experience from which to draw on that won't be able to make a Sioux City landing if something goes wrong.
Or in the case of 3701...they put the airplane into a configuration to snuff out the engines. Can you make an argument that there was a flaw or severe lacking in experience, training and skill that allowed that to happen? I think so. What about Pinnacle pilots flying through P-56 or doing silly things like asking for 300kts below 10,000 ft? There's a captain on board that aircraft too that should stop that from even being transmitted if all he's doing is babysitting the airplane and his FO.
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LOL :lol Don't worry
Golfer, I won't work for nothing. The boss of the particular outfit I mention likes to tell a story about an instructor who came into his office one day and offered to work for free. He threw him out saying. ' Don't you ever denigrate your profession by working for nothing'. In reality he has subsidised many a pilot. Letting them train for their CFI's and then deducting the money from their pay afterwards. Often he never gets repaid.
When I talk about unpaid instruction I mean in a non commercial flying club. There are very few flight schools in the country. But a lot of flying clubs. It's a good way to build time for free or just fly for free. There is a major shortage of instructors in Ireland because of the ridiculous complexities caused by the JAA and the way the airlines recruit low time pilots straight out of expensive European or American (100K) flight schools, who were in the past the source of instructors.
As for the pub:p not even in Ireland do we drink that close to flying. I can assure you we only drank Cokes, diet Coke at that. :lol I was really referring to the relaxed athmosphere just before we flew back.
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you do understand the minimun hours you graduate with from DCA to qualify for the regional program? Its 700 at the very minimum, most are 1000tt pilots.
Did I read your page right, you charge by the clock hour and not hobbs time? Like I have you scheduled for 2 hours but we fly only an hour and a half you charge the full 2 hours. Was I reading that right?
EDIT: found the background on the pilots. Captain had 6k hours. FO 539, with 300 being turbo prop. Lots of turbo prop for that low of TT, seems odd. Interesting read non the less
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/322805.pdf
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The FO was a Gulfstream Academy graduate. Flew BE-1900s. Paying for the 'right' and 'priviledge' is what I'm upset about.
You did. I make it clear to my students (more like clients since I don't fly with anyone off the street...they're all referred to me by other students) that if we're scheduled from 7am-10am for example, the clock starts at 7 and runs until the last handshake. I usually show up 15-30 minutes early anyway depending on the lesson but if a 3 hour scheduled block only has 1.8 hrs flying I'm still supervising, instructing and managing the experience and I'm compensated for such. I'm not a jerk though...if we're BSing about baseball or OSU football (GO BUCKS!!) I pay attention to that when I type up the bill at home.
A normal day might be I roll in at 6:45 and draw up a quick plan of action for the day and brief the student. Student shows at 7:05 I've been on the clock for 5 minutes. We sit down and go over the day's events. Maneuvers, procedures and expectations for both he and I. Do they have questions? Out to the airplane and they preflight, I check the fuel and oil once myself just because it's silly not to. We fly. Come back and I tie down the airplane and return the aircraft clipboard. Sit down, debrief, critique and I go over any notes I took during the flight and talk about what to expect for next time. If we're wrapped up at 9:45 and are BSing till 10:15 about sports, women and cars then that's fine. The final bill for me will show 2.8 hrs (2.75 rounded) for that person that day. Make sense?
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it makes sense, I have just never been charged like that. Its always been off the hobbs.
edit....and I agree with that crap about having to either pay for right seat time or fly for free stuff. Its insane but what else can these guys do to build time. Only so many low hour jobs to do. Most are in a hurry to build the minimum for the airlines then bolt at the first chance. I also believe the pilot contracts are crap to by paying the new pilots such horrid wages. Still not many options for the new pilots. Most dont have contacts and even more cant get insured. Not an easy path.
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at my local flight school for instance (and I'm not a contract instructor with them) the CFI's there might have a 2 hour block with 30 minutes of ground and an hour of flying. They only bill the hour of flying. I ask why and they don't have a good answer. They say because nobody else does. They all know now that I do and a few have followed suit. They're already making a whopping $18/hr (out of 28-32 billed) and they need all the help they can get. I feel bad for them but I've been there too. If I can find a way to network into a gig that has me flying in the nicest airplanes at a fair wage...they can too.
If you ask me...18-19-20 year olds shouldn't even be flying airliners. I'm only 22 and after every few months I sit back and look at where I am now (Meet FAR135 IFR PIC reqs.) and reflect on where I was and I'm amazed at what I've learned. The fast-food mentality of the country has bled into all these fast track schools and the idea of paying your dues is lost. Now instead of actually working their way into an airline position they just need to throw money at it and it's handed to them if they meet the minimum standards.
I don't like the idea of seeing a FO wearing a clip-on tie because they don't know how to tie one, wearing brown shoes with black pants and carrying with them a JanSport bookbag as a flight bag. I've seen all these things just in the last 8-12 months as regional carriers are taking over more mainline routes. A lot of things need to change in pilot training, standards and also above all...attitude. I know some very great airline pilots who are wonderful friends and good people to talk to. I know many more that outnumber the good ones who have poor negative attitudes.
Here's hoping :)
By the way...shoot me an email (cfigeorge@earthlink.net) I was wondering which school you went to and what you were looking at far as your next step.