Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: DVDA on September 01, 2005, 11:12:54 PM
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What is the closet plane to the FW190D?...The reason why i ask because i am lethal in the FW190D, killing is not problem in this plane, but i just want to try something new occasionally...
So what is the closet plane as for feel, speed etc to the FW190D
I tried some of the P-47D-40 and P-51D they were very sluggish and heavy feeling
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Try the Spitfire Mk XIV or Tempest Mk V.
Maybe the La-7 or La-5FN.
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Originally posted by DVDA
What is the closet plane to the FW190D?...The reason why i ask because i am lethal in the FW190D, killing is not problem in this plane, but i just want to try something new occasionally...
So what is the closet plane as for feel, speed etc to the FW190D
I tried some of the P-47D-40 and P-51D they were very sluggish and heavy feeling
P-47s are high altitude fighters. Up there they are reasonably agile and very fast, especially the P-47N which is a monster above 20k. Fuel weight is a big factor in Jugs. Never take more than 50% in a P-47N or 75% in the others. Personally, I take 50% and a belly tank. Among the P-47s, the D-11 is the most agile, the D-40 the best climber of the type at low altitude. At higher altitudes, the P-47N is untouchable. It easily out-climbs the 109G-10 from 20k to 30k and can attain 476 mph when level at 30k.
Limit your fuel load in the P-51D to no more than 50% and you'll find it doesn't feel sluggish. 50% gas will take you quite a bit further than 75% in the 190D-9.
My favorite Dora killer is the P-51B. It suffers from relatively weak guns (four .50 cal mgs), but is far more agile than the Dora, and is faster and climbs better from 12,000 feet on up. It's a near perfect ride for hunting strat porkers.
Likewise, the Spit XIV is a very capable fighter and it outclasses the Dora in every important aspect except pure speed on the deck. Another beast is the F4U-4.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Likewise, the Spit XIV is a very capable fighter and it outclasses the Dora in every important aspect except pure speed on the deck. Another beast is the F4U-4.
My regards,
Widewing [/B]
One important aspect where nothing outclasses the Dora (except a5) is rate of roll, which imo is one of it's main advantages, esp at speeds which freeze others up.
Bw
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One important aspect where nothing outclasses the Dora (except a5) is rate of roll, which imo is one of it's main advantages, esp at speeds which freeze others up.
Actually, at high speeds the 190 loses a lot of its roll rate. IIRC, the P-38L and the F4U outrolls it over 400.
It's the medium speed ranges where the 190 is best in roll. When caught by an enemy plane at mid speeds, some quick rolls as you dive/accelerate, and then when the speed builds up leave the enemy behind in dust.
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Can't dispute you there Kweassa :) Apologies for my sloppy sentence. By "others" I meant SpitXIV, La7, P51, P47 & Temp which have appeared as main contenders for Dora alternatives in this thread and is based on anecdotal experience not data. Please let me know if figures prove me wrong :)
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Originally posted by DVDA
I tried some of the P-47D-40 and P-51D they were very sluggish and heavy feeling
Then you are not comparing them with AH D9.
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Originally posted by DVDA
What is the closet plane to the FW190D?...The reason why i ask because i am lethal in the FW190D, killing is not problem in this plane, but i just want to try something new occasionally...
I guess an almost direct equivalent for behaviour and performance is the Hawker Tempest. Almost the same ROC, speed, altitude performance....
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Give the Ki-84 a try...
Not saying it is similar to the D-9, but i suspect you will like it.
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I don't know how you fly the dora, but just be careful of compression speeds in the la7, la5 and ki84. I'm not sure if 38s are in this conversation or not, but don't get the shakes with that thing =)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Actually, at high speeds the 190 loses a lot of its roll rate. IIRC, the P-38L and the F4U outrolls it over 400.
It's the medium speed ranges where the 190 is best in roll. When caught by an enemy plane at mid speeds, some quick rolls as you dive/accelerate, and then when the speed builds up leave the enemy behind in dust.
But this isn't fighting, it's running.....
Oh, and rapid rolls eat energy (adverse yaw). Roll rate is a benefit, not usually an advantage that can be counted upon to save one's bacon.
Doras are strictly one trick birds. Cherrypick and run like hell.. Burn off E and die. I prefer the F4U-4 or P-51B which can fight their way out of trouble. It may be of interest that the P-51B is faster than the F4U-4 from 5k up through 16k. OTOH, the F4U-4 accelerates and climbs better over that altitude range (considerably better than the Dora too).
My regards,
Widewing
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What kurfurst said the behaviour on the typhoon drivers is about the same.
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Hmmm........
IMHO...............
I've hunted down many a D with the 109g10.
The 109g10 is not ez to fly though.
Compresses at about 425 below 5k.
The more alt you have the faster u can go ina 109g10.
Turns terrible in most cases.
Roll works far better.
RUDDER!
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I'd say F4U4 or Ki84, Tempest to a lesser degree.
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But this isn't fighting, it's running.....
You're supposed to run when an enemy plane is behind you.
No disrespect, but with a plane behind you at 400 that you know you can outrun, I assume you'd do the same.
Oh, and rapid rolls eat energy (adverse yaw). Roll rate is a benefit, not usually an advantage that can be counted upon to save one's bacon.
Not when the energy is already building from a dive.
I've encountered your opinions on the scissors as a last-ditch of defense which I do agree, but provided there's some alt to build up speed, it's not always like that. Especially against planes that feel the effects of hvy ailerons as speed builds up.
Doras are strictly one trick birds. Cherrypick and run like hell.. Burn off E and die. I prefer the F4U-4 or P-51B which can fight their way out of trouble.
Any plane is a one-trick plane under bad circumstances. I agree that the Corsairs and Mustangs have a far better chance in dogfighting than a contemporary 190, but that's still only assuming that the pilot you're facing is at best a mediocre - which, for some reason, you seem to ignore constantly.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Doras are strictly one trick birds. Cherrypick and run like hell.. Burn off E and die. I prefer the F4U-4 or P-51B which can fight their way out of trouble.
I'm Dorka dweeb and I've the exact same opinion of the F4 and P51 drivers.
Don't you think it's more a pilot caracteristic than a plane caracteristic ?
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Originally posted by straffo
I'm Dorka dweeb and I've the exact same opinion of the F4 and P51 drivers.
Don't you think it's more a pilot caracteristic than a plane caracteristic ?
To some degree it is a function of the pilot. However, the Dora is absolutely unsuited to furballing, thereby limiting tactics to slashing attacks followed by a rapid climb to regain position. An equally fast, but more agile fighter can reduce the Dora pilot's options to simply fleeing.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
My favorite Dora killer is the P-51B. It suffers from relatively weak guns (four .50 cal mgs), but is far more agile than the Dora, and is faster and climbs better from 12,000 feet on up. It's a near perfect ride for hunting strat porkers.
My regards,
Widewing
I gained new respect for the P51B one afternoon. I was in a Tempest at about 18k and here comes two P51B's co-alt. There was nothing I could do, they were just as fast as me, out-turned me and with two of them could keep me cornered. I ended up trying to split S away but they had no problem keeping up and following my evasives and ended up running me down on the deck.
If you can tolerate the pee-shooters the P51B is a great plane at all altitudes really, faster and more manueverable than almost anything below 20k.
to Vati and Bullseye
Zazen
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Originally posted by Widewing
To some degree it is a function of the pilot. However, the Dora is absolutely unsuited to furballing, thereby limiting tactics to slashing attacks followed by a rapid climb to regain position. An equally fast, but more agile fighter can reduce the Dora pilot's options to simply fleeing.
My regards,
Widewing
Certainly :)
I've the bad habit to enter a furball with a D9 or a typhoon and Furball till I feel I'm out of option except regaining E as fast as I can :D
Slashing attack are not compatible with my poor gunnery :D
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Originally posted by straffo Slashing attack are not compatible with my poor gunnery :D [/B]
My furballing ability is, at best, piss-poor (ok, ok, I'm working on it - Spits only this tod) but I've been blessed with a good eye & steady trigger hand. IMO the Dora is a cracking slashing beast, probably the best in AH. Guns are arranged close to centre line & ability to roll quick means rapid fine tuning of gun solution at speed is easy.
I'd thus have to disagree with Widewings assertion that rapid rate of roll is defensive manoeuvre only.
Regards
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An equally fast, but more agile fighter can reduce the Dora pilot's options to simply fleeing.
Roll rate is agility in a fighter.
This is true statement for Aces High but I don't think it reflects the actual ability of the design.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Roll rate is agility in a fighter.
This is true statement for Aces High but I don't think it reflects the actual ability of the design.
All the best,
Crumpp
I have a question that you may be able to answer. There's a fellow on another BBS who insists that he has data showing the Ta 152H-1 was capable of 500+ mph. To date, despite my requests, he has posted nothing in support of this assertion. I'm convinced he's lying like a cheap rug. To attain 500 mph the 152 would require at least 3,000 hp, perhaps even more. Have you ever heard this particular claim before? It seems to me that if it were true, more than one character would know about it.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing that accusation would be quite false (level flight only of course).
The Ta152 was capable of 472mph at 41k acording to all data I've seen, charts etc. I've never heard anything about it passing 500mph or being able to pass 500mph in level flight. The only piston engined plane to do this during ww2 afaik was a P47 M prototype.
Not sure it would need 3000hp or more but it is possible, maybe it could do it on less. I'm guessing it would be able to do it on less. The engine is uses now (Jumo 213 E) gives a good 1730hp at take off and about 1260 at 35k. This would be without MW50 and GM1 though.
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How can ANYONE compare a Dora with a Ki84? The difference between flying and fighting styles can not be greater.
Tiffie or an F4u would be the planes that resembles the Dora most, while both behave better or much better at high speeds (part from tiffie roll rate) the fighting is much the same. Both outturn the Dora though, specially the F4u at very low speeds and flaps out.
If you've gotten tired of the Dora I suggest a 190 A8 instead.
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Hi Widewing,
>There's a fellow on another BBS who insists that he has data showing the Ta 152H-1 was capable of 500+ mph.
I have never heard of that. If he actually has data, I'd like to see it, too :-)
>To attain 500 mph the 152 would require at least 3,000 hp, perhaps even more.
Of course, the power requirement would be highly altitude-dependend. Using Wilbus' figure of 472 mph @ 41000 ft as standard top speed, it's achieved on just 1080 hp (plus a considerable amount of exhaust thrust).
To get to 500 mph, or 106% of the original speed, you'd just have to produce 118% of the original power, or 1280 hp. Since the original power is achieved on 120 g/s GM-1 injection and the GM-1 system will yield a maximum of 180 g/s, this power increase is well in reach for the Jumo 213E.
However, 180 g/s is only cleared for 42650 ft and above, and I believe you might end up melting important parts of your engines if you engage it below that while aiming for the 500 mph mark :-)
There are possible explanations how a Ta 152H could have been flown at 500 mph - experimental engine, prototype with low fuel load and without combat equipment, or - maybe the highest probability guess - an airspeed reading not corrected for compressiblity error :-)
(The compressibilty error at the speed and altitude Wilbus mentioned would read about 50 mph too high in a conventional airspeed indicator. I don't know if the Ta 152 maybe had the late-war "jet fighter" type airspeed indicator which had a IAS gauge for low speeds and a TAS gauge for higher speeds, but I suspect the TAS gauge might not have compensated for compressiblity either.)
I agree that such a record flight would probably have been mentioned in the extensive literature on the type, and in the absence of data I'd consider the 500 mph claim as plain wishful thinking :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Nice numbers HoHun.
It is correct that the Jumo 213 E wasn't flown using the best possible GM1 boost. Possibly (probarly) for the Reasons HoHun mentioned.
The 500mph may very well have been achievable in the Ta under the right conditions with a pilot willing to push the engine and with an engine that had been well taken care of and well constructed.
The highest altitude of any Ta152 ever reached was 44799 feet. It was a test flight conducted in order to see how high the plane could climb. The test was aborted more due to the fact that the pilot could not continue (The pressurised cockpit didn't work and the pilots limbs stopped working and he was starting to get a tunnel vision well before this altitude was reached. Infact, he had to start flying with his left arm because his right arm stopped responding).
On the way down the pilot conducted several more speed tests but nowhere does he or any official records state that he passed 500mph (so even if the speed meter did show the wrong speed it didn't show more than 500).
The pilots name was Friedrich Schnier.
If you really want the full story told by him (not all that long) I can type it down. Let me know, I won't do it unless anyone wants to...
Oh btw, go tell they guy who says it reached 500mph level flight that he is full of BS or tell him to cough up the reports. I would love to see them and I would love to know if it indeed did reach 500mph. Till then he is full of BS.
I don't think the Ta152 ever flew at 41k during operational sorties nor even anywhere near it and this again makes it quite unlikely that the plane passed 500mph in level flight.
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It would've been rather useless for the Ta-152 to fly there.
At those high altitudes, there probably are no enemies.
The Ta-152 isn't a good diver, it's wings will come of fairly rapidly in a steep dive, so Im sure their pilots didn't like to get in a dive, thus not flying at high alts (above 35k)
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Actually Frank the Ta152 wings will stay on in any dive in AH and I expect they would stay on at 600mph in R/L aswell just like the normal 190's.
What the wings can't take as good due to their length is high G's.
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Hi Wilbus,
>It is correct that the Jumo 213 E wasn't flown using the best possible GM1 boost. Possibly (probarly) for the Reasons HoHun mentioned.
Hm, actually it was the best possible, just not the largest possible :-)
GM-1 is an oxydizer, and the power you gain is directly proportional to the rate at which you pour in GM-1. While the engine has to work hard to pump the usual oxydizer - ambient air - into the engine, GM-1 can be poured in at any rate without taking any power off the engine at all.
However, since GM-1 contains proportionally more oxygen than air, there's proportinally less inert mass available to carry off heat, so the engine will run hot - if you pour in too much GM-1, self-destructively hot.
Since GM-1 is an oxydizer, it can be compared to rocket fuel. Its effect is very powerful, but it's used up at a terrible rate.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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HoHun the GM1 system in the Ta152 (or rather for the Jumo 213 E1 equiped in the Ta152) was approved for 60, 100 and 150 g/sec.
It gave an increase of up to 410hp above the maximum boost altitude at an average consupmtion of 100 g/sec and lasted for 17 minutes. The Gm1 was stored in a 85 liter tank in the aft fuselage.
So 120 g/sec would actually not be the best possible for the Ta152.
While 180 would probarly be overly optimistic the engine ta152 was aproved for 150 g/s.
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Hi Wilbus,
>HoHun the GM1 system in the Ta152 (or rather for the Jumo 213 E1 equiped in the Ta152) was approved for 60, 100 and 150 g/sec.
You might be right, I was trying to decipher a rather poor scan. Still, at the altitude for the speed you described, the Jumo was using only the medium rate of injection, not the high rate.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Rgr HoHun, just saying :)
Not sure if they ever even used the Gm1 system operational, I doubt they did as it was only used above maximum boost altitude and as you know, that max boost alt of the Jumo 213 E1 is pretty high.
While it is false that the Ta152 conducted 262 field protectiong sorties many of the sorties they did fly were low level. The well known Ta152 vs Tempest encounter was low alt for example.
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Hi Wilbus,
>While it is false that the Ta152 conducted 262 field protectiong sorties many of the sorties they did fly were low level. The well known Ta152 vs Tempest encounter was low alt for example.
Quite right. I believe the Luftwaffe at that time was past the luxury of assigning special duties to specialized planes and used the Ta 152 just as any other fighter.
Frank3 is correct in pointing out the lack of Allied activity at extreme altitude. I'm not sure why the Ta 152H was built at all - it seems that the Nazi leadership feared that the B-29 would be sent to Europe and fly at altitudes where the standard Luftwaffe fighters were out of their element.
At the operating altitudes of the B-17 and B-24 (and their escorts), I suspect the short-wing Ta 152 would have been the better aircraft.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Well HoHun, the Ta152 design/planning started well before the war ended, the specifications for a high alt fighter date back to December 43. Already in 42 Kurt Tank realised that the BWM radial wouldn't cut it, atleast not in the near future and started investigating new engines which eventually led up to the 190 D.
They did need a high altitude fighter, they may not have needed an extreem high altitude fighter like the Ta152 H but non the less they needed something that could compete with the Ponys and P47's at alt.
The Dora gave them this but Kurt Tank considered the Dora just a middle step between the Antons and the Ta152.
Wether the Ta152 A, B and C would have done better we can only guess, however, the H did very well, specially against the odds they always flew. It was just as capable at low level as any other piston engine fighter at the time if not more so (level deck speed wasn't the only thing that mattered).
Would have been interesting to see, had the development gone a bit faster and had the RLM/government not been idiots there might have been other versions of the Ta152. On the paper those planes are quite awsome atleast.
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Hi Wilbus,
>Well HoHun, the Ta152 design/planning started well before the war ended, the specifications for a high alt fighter date back to December 43.
Dietmar Hermann has published a good book called "Fw 190 - Der Weg zum Höhenjäger" ('Fw 190 - The Path to the High Altitude Fighter') that points out even earlier developments. Apparently, mass production of the lightened Fw 190B with BMW801D, an enlarged wing and exterior air intakes for greater ram effect was just about to start when it was cancelled in favour of more Antons. I speculate this might have been due to the requirements of the Eastern Front.
>The Dora gave them this but Kurt Tank considered the Dora just a middle step between the Antons and the Ta152.
Hm, I believe the D-9 at least wasn't competetive against the P-51 and P-47 at high altitude due to the limited power of the Jumo 213A up there. But you're right on Tank's opinon - maybe "stopgap" would be even more accurate.
>Wether the Ta152 A, B and C would have done better we can only guess, however, the H did very well, specially against the odds they always flew.
Oh, I didn't mean to suggest it was a poor fighter in any way! But a small-wing Ta 152 would have had less drag and a higher G limit, in addition to less weight due to the absence of the GM-1 equipment, and so it would have compared even more favourably to the Allied designs at most altitudes.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Sorry Widewing,
I have not checked on this thread in a while nor was I recieving email notices.
Fortunately, Hohun has it covered.
I have never seen a 500mph Ta152. Now there is a 770kph (+) calculated chart for FW190D12 performance.
For flight tested results the FW-190D12 hit 730kph with the Ta-152C taking the top spot at 745kph.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Dietmar Hermann has published a good book called "Fw 190 - Der Weg zum Höhenjäger" ('Fw 190 - The Path to the High Altitude Fighter') that points out even earlier developments. Apparently, mass production of the lightened Fw 190B with BMW801D, an enlarged wing and exterior air intakes for greater ram effect was just about to start when it was cancelled in favour of more Antons. I speculate this might have been due to the requirements of the Eastern Front.
Heya! I don't have that book yet although it is very high on my list. I have "Focke-Wulf ta 152: The storry of Luftwaffes late war, high-altitude fighter" by the same author, absolutely love the book.
I had no idea of the Fw190 B actually, never heard of it which gives me yet another reason to buy the book.
maybe "stopgap" would be even more accurate.
Stopgap was the exact word I was looking for, just couldn't seem to find it in my brain when I needed it.
While the Dora may not have been up to par with P51's and P47's at high alt I definatly think it was bellow 25k or so, atleast the pilots who flew it loved it and it was quite superior to the Antons over 20k. Still, the Jumo 213 A had limited high altitude performance.
As for the H, yes... the shorter wing Ta152's would have produced less drag and greater roll. However, it would have given them worse turning ability aswell. One can argue over which is most important, depends on situation I guess but speed would probarly have been better. The much improved turn radius of the Ta152 H compared to Fw 190's was praised by the pilots who did fly the Ta 152 though as Willi Reschke describes in his combat report vs Tempests.
Oh, I didn't mean to suggest it was a poor fighter in any way! But a small-wing Ta 152 would have had less drag and a higher G limit, in addition to less weight due to the absence of the GM-1 equipment, and so it would have compared even more favourably to the Allied designs at most altitudes.
Don't think the G limit was a problem really. Infact, Ta 152 pilots said that unlike the Fw 190 they had flown prior they loved the Ta 152 because it turned so well, some said that they could grey out even at lower speed turns, something they hadn't experienced before.
I know you didn't sugest it was bad plane, that wouldn't make much sense...
The weight things is interesting though. The Ta152 C would have been the next production modell (some say a few were produced and some say a few saw combat but this is very uncertain and not very probarble part from possibly a few C0's pre-production).
The Ta 152 C1 (first planned prouduction version) was actually heavier than the Ta 152 H1. 5300kg compared to 5217kg (normal flight weight).
It had a shorter wings and thus less wing area (faster roll but worse turn radius). It was to use the DB 603 LA or L engine instead of the Jumo (looking at charts the DB engine gives better performance bellow 10,000 meters or so).
The C was to be a Destroyer though and most of the extra weight was armament. It was also capable of Attack sorties carrying ordnance.
Normal armament for the C1 was to be 2xMg151's in upper fuselage with 150 rpg. 2 more Mg151's in each wing root with 175rpg and a hub mounted Mk 108 30mm with 90 rounds.
(I want it!)
The B version and A version were also planned for heavy armament.
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Allied fighters where routinely flying at 30k and the 109s and 190s didn't do too well up there (otherwise the Jugs would have been toast). Flying at the same alt as your enemy is not favorable, to gain an advantage the Germans logically aimed for 40k.
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nothing like it.
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Never mind.