Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Modas on September 02, 2005, 07:46:11 AM
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N.O.'s mayor was on a radio interview that CNN originally broadcasted unedited.
They mayor basically reamed the governement and others for their lack of and slow response to what is going on down there. The original interview involved a lot of words like friken, BS, A&&, etc and you could just hear in his voice that he was at his wits end.
He said that they were getting calls from people stuck in their attics, neck deep in water and couldn't get out. Yesterday someone posted that 50,000 bodybags had been ordered. They might need those yet. :(
He also said, that when the Tsumani hit last year, we had food drops in those areas within two days. Its been 5 days now and nothing like that has started. One of the CNN anchors was grilling a the head of FEMA as to why food wasn't being dropped in.
So, I pose a question.....
Given the desparate situation down there now, would it be beneficial to air drop food/supplies into the area, or would it make it worse due to the potential of violence/rioting to get the food?
Talk about being between a rock and a hard place...
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Frustration is certain, especially when lack of state government planning was lackluster at best. As I posted in another thread...THe primary reason is water. Andrew's water from rain receded within the ground quite quickly. The levi in NO busted on the 2nd day after the hurricane and filled the "bowl" up making it very difficult to get in to set up anything on dry ground. As for Mississippi, the flood water combined with the devastation is incredible and from what I am seeing, much more extensive. One of the worst logistical nightmares is flooding from a rescue/recovery point of view.
I think we all should stop pointing a finger (including those politically-driven) and start lending a hand, in any way we can. That includes cutting back on gasoline, opening up our wallets no matter how small the donation may be (if you can..) or volunteering, if you're able to do so.
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Watching the events unfold on this side of the pond. Its very sad.
What I'm sure many of us can't understand is why a country with the resources at its disposal like the US can't get immediate help to these people. I'm suprised the US navy hasn't sent a task group. Why can't they use amphibious vehicles to evacuate people. Provide massive air support to airlift people out of there and deliver food. Honestly its seems a terrible mess. If I was a resident in the affected area I would be livid, after that is I'd struggled to survive.
As for the food situation I think just dropping stuff by air would make no sense. Unless there was massive logistical support on the ground.
It realy looks as if the US govt has failed in a terrible way. ( not political point scoreing just a seemingly sad fact. )
Very sad and I hope any body on this board who hails from that area is OK.
:(
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I agree with Rip.
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Originally posted by Modas
He also said, that when the Tsumani hit last year, we had food drops in those areas within two days.
Evidence please. Sorry just sounds a bit dubious to me
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Watching the events unfold on this side of the pond. Its very sad.
What I'm sure many of us can't understand is why a country with the resources at its disposal like the US can't get immediate help to these people. I'm suprised the US navy hasn't sent a task group. Why can't they use amphibious vehicles to evacuate people. Provide massive air support to airlift people out of there and deliver food. Honestly its seems a terrible mess. If I was a resident in the affected area I would be livid, after that is I'd struggled to survive.
within 24 hours after the hurricane, Navy ships were already conducting rescue opertions. The U.S. military was sending a hospital ship and two helicopter-carriers to assist two other Navy ships already conducting rescues in the area. Things don't happen as quick as a post on the internet. Better to open your wallet than open your mouth with complaint.
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Originally posted by Modas
Given the desparate situation down there now, would it be beneficial to air drop food/supplies into the area, or would it make it worse due to the potential of violence/rioting to get the food?
Talk about being between a rock and a hard place...
Rock and a hard place is pretty good discription.
Food is getting down there but getting it to the people and areas that most need it is the problem I think. Its such a large area and people are all over the place. Not to mention places that are underwater.
and even if you set up drop zones in these areas how many men would be needed to protect each area to prevent the violence while the food is distributed. and what happens once it is and the person at the back of the line figures out its easier to take from those who were at the front of the line then to wait their turn.
and those that are still potentially stuck in their attics. How do you go about getting them but by going house to house one by one?
Its a tough situation and there is no easy solution where we can say."well we should just do this or that"
Even getting people out is a problem. I saw yesterday on the news where a whole convoy of volounteers with boats in the words of the reporter "as far as the eye can see" had to be called off because there were people shooting at the rescue boats. So they are having a tough time just getting in to be able to get people out. And you cant ask volounteers to risk getting shot at and killed themselves to try to go in.
Tough and complex situation
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Not complaining. Just observing what we are shown on the news over here.
I don't live there obviously.
By the way my wallet was opened already. Hope my meagre contribution helps!
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Not complaining. Just observing what we are shown on the news over here.
I don't live there obviously.
By the way my wallet was opened already. Hope my meagre contribution helps!
Thank you. If more people contributed, no matter what amount, such as you, we can help to get these people back on track to recovery.
I'll probably be flamed by the usual suspects for asking people to contribute as I was in the Tsunam disaster.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Evidence please. Sorry just sounds a bit dubious to me
Sorry -
Just regurgitating/paraphrasing what the mayor of NO's said on his interview...
The purpose of the post is not come up with evididence as to what we did (or didn't do) in the past. Just to pose the question
Would air dropping food/supplies into NO make the situation better or worse?
Personally, I think it would make thing much worse. I think in the end, we would have a mass riot and even more deaths than there are now... I think the whole situation is already boardering on being totally out of control. Right now, most people are still controlling themselves somewhat. Give it another week without serious help...... Its gonna get really ugly.
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Before
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6f/New_orleans_msi_march9_2004_dg.jpg/542px-New_orleans_msi_march9_2004_dg.jpg)
After
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3a/New_orleans_msi_aug31_2005_dg.jpg/536px-New_orleans_msi_aug31_2005_dg.jpg)
and thats JUST New orleans
I do not think any of us are really fathoming the full extent of this.
I keep seeing reporters on site saying how its much much worse then it then they can even begin to show
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See Rule #5
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We are, as a nation, experiencing typical reactions...shock, grief, anger and reconcile. The truly ugly part of America and the world is those who use this disaster to point a political finger at the other side of the isle, when indeed we should be joining hands and helping.
Lets stop pointing fingers and lend a hand, shall we?
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Indeed but somewhere down the line someone has to take responsibility for the failure! Otherwise it will happen again and again. Sea levelsd are set to rise don't ya know and Europe will face that too. The Dutch ought to be watching pretty closely and learning how not to manage the situation !
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Ya know what... Why do you allways look to government to solve every problem?
lazs
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Indeed but somewhere down the line someone has to take responsibility for the failure! Otherwise it will happen again and again. Sea levelsd are set to rise don't ya know and Europe will face that too. The Dutch ought to be watching pretty closely and learning how not to manage the situation !
Historically speaking, buying that area from the French, thats where the failure should lay, as this was designed by Mother Nature to be a swamp.
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You have a point Rip.
Lazs what do you pay your taxes for?
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The Dutch aren't likely to experience a tropical storm let alone a hurricane any time soon Sky.
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Trueish, though 1953 was pretty bad for them and us!
http://www.geographypages.co.uk/1953floods.htm
Some stats at the bottom of the page.
So you see it does happen here too and will get worse as sea levels rise. There is already a debate about what to do on our east coast, in the fens area. Whether to continue to defend or leave the area and progressively let it re flood.
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skyprancer... I pay my taxes so that I won't have a hoard of wannnabe imitatation ninjas armed with machine guns storming my "compound". I do not expect my government to even live up to their investment programs (SS, medicare) that they extorted from me much less help me out in a disaster.
I pay insurance for that kinda stuff... I carry a gun for the protection stuff and I let em extort taxes from me for everything else that I have no use for because I have no choice.
I would not welcome the ninjas if I had property in the area.... i would defend it if I could and cash in the insurance if I couldn't...
What would you expect the government to do for me?
lazs
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Deal effectively with a major disaster for one!
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not a very concise answer eh what old bean? How would you expect them to spend the money they extorted from me to help me?? What could they do for me that I, or my friends and insurance company can not?
lazs
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The area affected is approximately 95,000 sq miles, larger than some countries, the UK for example (I believe) is less than that size wise.
We have 2 million people who live in the New Orleans area alone, not counting the areas hit in Mississippi and Alabama. We have 500 to 750,000 people who are still in the area. How many busses, helicopters, boats, trucks do you need to feed, water, move etc that many people? This isn't even counting the ones who fled early like they should and are now scattered around several states.
The flooded areas have made driving pretty damn tough and they have to bring fuel with them because there is none in the affected areas. We only have about 200 helicopters in the area with more showing up every day, they need fuel too. The fuel came from NO and now has to be brought from surrounding states. Just so you know, it is 1500 miles from El passo Texas to Houston and what 350 or so to NO from there. How the hell long do you think it takes to drive that far. The flood just happened Tuesday night, its now 3 days later. 248 truckloads of supplies have arrived and guess what, its not even enough for 1 day !
Just because we are a rich country doesnt mean we can perform miracles. Today the relief efforts have gotten much better but for cripes sakes its only been a few days cut the USA some slack or just shut the heck up. You are not making any friends with our people suffering while you backseat drive.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
See Rule #5
Sky, there are days i find your viewpoint interesting, days i find it humorous.. today I find it distresses me.
It is not the american governments fault. It's an unmitigated natural disaster of near biblical porportions on one of americas oldest cities. I expect that when (not if) the majority of California drops into the Pacific that will be the American governments fault also?
You got any other examples of better than 4,000 helicopter rescues in 48 hours? The delivery of 2 million MRE's, 6 million liters of water in that time frame? Every form of transportation is being utilized.. only one road into the place is still up... you can't begin to fathom the scope.
Now our media is ramping up it's whiney anchorweenies.. 'where's the help?'. I'm wondering why they just don't shut up and help.. haven't seen them removing any bodies, distributing water, transporting refugees....
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Originally posted by Krusher
The area affected is approximately 100,000 sq miles, larger than some countries, the UK for example (I believe) is less than that size wise.
We have 2 million people who live in the New Orleans area alone, not counting the areas hit in Mississippi and Alabama. We have 500 to 750,000 people who are still in the area. How many busses, helicopters, boats, trucks do you need to feed, water, move etc that many people? This isn't even counting the ones who fled early like they should and are now scattered around several states.
The flooded areas have made driving pretty damn tough and they have to bring fuel with them because there is none in the affected areas. We only have about 200 helicopters in the area with more showing up every day, they need fuel too. The fuel came from NO and now has to be brought from surrounding states. Just so you know, it is 1500 miles from El passo Texas to Houston and what 350 or so to NO from there. How the hell long do you think it takes to drive that far. The flood just happened Tuesday night, its now 3 days later. 248 truckloads of supplies have arrived and guess what, its not even enough for 1 day !
Just because we are a rich country doesnt mean we can perform miracles. Today the relief efforts have gotten much better but for cripes sakes its only been a few days cut the USA some slack or just shut the heck up. You are not making any friends with our people suffering while you backseat drive.
What he said.
Sky, how quick would your goverment respond if the whole Island of britan somehow got covered with 15 feet of water?
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything!
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Let me say a couple things here.
First, Skydancer, thanks for contributing, it is appreciated.
Now as to all those who are complaining about the timing of the response. Here are some things to consider.
Number one get out of the idea that things happen instantly. That is all hollywood, the real life takes time.
Troops have to be mobilized, minimum of 24 hours to just get the damn order authorized and cut to the relevent units. Then during that time the troops have to GET THERE to the mobilization station. If there are no roads, or worse yet, the mobilization station is in the area of the disaster there is no place to mobilize and no equipment to mobilize with. The relevent troops are the National Guard for security and disaster relief. The troops and units in the area that are NOT on deployment overseas due to the troop draw down from earlier, are also effected by the disaster themselves. Some were killed, some are missing, some were evacuated by mandatory order. A major unit in NO is overseas. Secondly you have to have the right KIND of unit available in the area to do something. A civil affairs or psyops unit is not equiped or big enough to do a damn thing there. Posse Commitatis restricts the use of Federal troops for law enforcement. Even Federal troops on full time duty will take a while to get equipment loaded on the appropriate transport which may or may not be good enough to get them into the area, then get it there to do something.
The main roads around the city of NO (which is only ONE SPOT that has been trashed by the hurricane) are damaged or gone. Ground transportation has to use something to get there. When the bridge from I-10 was trashed a major artery in was almost totally cut and has to be evaluated to determine if loaded trucks can use it.
The fleet. Yep the navy has resources on the Eastern coast. Think about it. They have to sail there. Going long distances takes time for ships. Getting the right ones mobilized then transported takes time. Shipping material to the ships takes time. It isn't pre loaded on the boats with crews waiting to move at the speed of sound to deliver it. Then you have to have a freaking port to load large amounts of material. If the roads around the port are trashed how much are you going to deliver? The aircushion vehicles are not designed to travel in streets in neighborhoods to do rescues or spot deliveries especially when the streets are fouled with trees and other debris.
The shooting situation has stopped rescues. Think about it. The crews are there to rescue folks, shooting at them will NOT help them to do that. the gangs doing the rapes robberies and assaults are a major problem to getting help to people. THe "thin veneer" of civilization has already been dropped, if it was there at all for some of those hemorhoids, by these gangs and they are to blame for the cessation of rescues.
Now to everyone. Get off the blame band wagon and have a nice cup of STFU!!! If you want to do something send money to the relief organzation of your choice. Do not go down there, they need professionals and people with the proper equipment to be there to work, not a bunch of no skill no equipment geeks to clog up what roads there are and get in the freaking way.
I understand the governors and mayors frustration. They are in the hot seat and after giving the orders to do something all they can DO is hollar. That's their job to get more stuff, more equipment, more help. It's also all they can do now. They want to help but are out of resources of their own.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Historically speaking, buying that area from the French, thats where the failure should lay, as this was designed by Mother Nature to be a swamp.
it's England's fault really, they lent us the money
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Hang.
With respect I can only go on what I'm seeing on my TV screen.
All the major news channels are saying that the response has been shambolic. And most times that is being said by the people of New Orleans that are being interviewed from the top, ( the mayor ) down.
If its otherwise then I'm all the happier for it. What I'm seeing is not great. But admittedly thats what the media is choosing to show right now.
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If you think the media is going to show a fair picture you really need to cut back on the smoking funny cigarettes. The highest ratings go to the "story" with the worst conditions / angle to it.
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Haven't smoked those in years. I hear the stuff is stronger these days!
Your right I guess. The media like to present worst case all the time it makes better news.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ya know what... Why do you allways look to government to solve every problem?
lazs
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My thoughts, exactly, lazs.
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FWIW. a large convoy is now arriving in NO by the dome driving through streets that are underwater right now. They are showing live video on CNN and have been for the last several minutes. Helo's have been landing on the roof of a submerged parking garage as well.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
With respect I can only go on what I'm seeing on my TV screen.
Yes, that would be a problem.
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See Rule #4
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We may be seeing the tragic results of a populace that for what ever reason chose to depend on the government for too much.
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Originally posted by Maverick
...Troops have to be mobilized, minimum of 24 hours to just get the damn order authorized and cut to the relevent units. ...
A buddy of mine who is a reserve Seabee says naval reserve orders are cut out of the national reserve computer center.... located in New Orleans.
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See Rule #4
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there was an interesting discussion on the local political talk show about the federal government not being able to intervene in any state emergency resulting from a natural catastrophe without aid first being requested from the state governments.
I dont know about it and no one had any concrete answers.
One thing is for certain, as 9/11 changed the way the game is played with national security, so too will this disaster change the way the states and the federal government behave and communicate with each other in crises.
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Don't know about other branches but there's a whole bunch of Army units that can deploy faster than 24hrs.
Of course rallying on a drop zone, or rolling off of an airstrip and moving to an objective is a much simpler affair than evacuating a flooded metropolis I 'spose.
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See Rule #2
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damn skuzzy, you coulda just edited out the last sentence.
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Originally posted by Yeager
there was an interesting discussion on the local political talk show about the federal government not being able to intervene in any state emergency resulting from a natural catastrophe without aid first being requested from the state governments.
I dont know about it and no one had any concrete answers.
One thing is for certain, as 9/11 changed the way the game is played with national security, so too will this disaster change the way the states and the federal government behave and communicate with each other in crises.
Yeager,
The particular situation you are referring to is under the area of the Posse Comitatis (sp) act. It prohibits the use of Federal troops until certain conditions are met. I believe the declaration of a federal disaster situation would releasse several of the assets for use but still not for LE purposes. I think a federal declaration of marshal law would be needed for that but I may be mistaken. It's been too many years since my MP training.
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Originally posted by Furious
damn skuzzy, you coulda just edited out the last sentence.
Not my responsibility. You could have just as easily left it out before hitting the submit button.
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Peter Pan complex is what a clinical psychologist would probably determine.
Aovids responsibilities, people tell them they are childish and need to grow up, would rather live in their head than the real world, wants success to just happen to them, focuses on fantasies more than reality, believes they deserve to have whatever they want, life lacks direction, never know what to do next, does dumb things frequently, inconsistent performance, lazy, slacker, does the minimum to get by, does things without thinking, does not feel they have any reason to accomplish anything, tend to ignore or put off problems, believes fun is the most important thing in life, most people think they are crazy, forgets scheduled appointments, more past than future, gets attention through negative behavior.
Damn you just described me. I mean you really nailed it. Except the part about the negative behavior.
Even Amazon didn't know I was peter pan.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Hang.
With respect I can only go on what I'm seeing on my TV screen.
And you base your beliefs & opinions on what you see on the TV screen?
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Well, as a law enforcement applicant, I find this really sad. Sorry if its already been posted, but WTF. I cant imagine what the hell is happening down there.
http://www.zippyvideos.com/891102377101346...ting-in-walmart
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Not my responsibility. You could have just as easily left it out before hitting the submit button.
I could have, but I really wanted him to know how I felt.
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See Rule #7
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I finally heard from a friend who lives down that way. He pointed out that the voters turned down a proposal to improve the levys recently. :huh
He's getting by, as are many others.
What I find sad is outbursts from that mayor and Jesse Jackson down there insisting this is racism, yada yada. He's simply stirring the pot and offering no solutions.
And that I find tiring
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Originally posted by LePaul
I finally heard from a friend who lives down that way. He pointed out that the voters turned down a proposal to improve the levys recently. :huh
He's getting by, as are many others.
What I find sad is outbursts from that mayor and Jesse Jackson down there insisting this is racism, yada yada. He's simply stirring the pot and offering no solutions.
And that I find tiring
Predictable.
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Now that the "Poly card" has been played (and so soon, I expected at least a week before this would come), how long before the race card is played, that these people would have got faster, better help and assistance, had it not been for their color? I give it one week, Jesse will be first to say it. Speaking of which, where is Jesse? ;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Predictable.
yeah,
It's to a point where you can cut and paste responses now...
very tiring...
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Predictable.
see the other thread:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158967#newpost
as for anything the NO mayor or the gov of LA spews, why wouldn't they use this golden opportunity to slam the admin, the opposition? No matter what the feds did, with this huge a disaster, you can critize and get away with it to some..
their complaints are both a cya and a typical left slanted "it can't be my fault" response
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The part I have trouble fathoming is just the basic distribution of food and water. It should not take DAYS to load up a couple of C-130's and airdrop supplies to the civic center and wherever else they are needed.
Also keep in mind we had DAYS to prepare for this. As soon as the skies were calm enough to fly we should have been performing massive rescue and resupply missions.
This was not a "surprise attack". We even had plans for scenarios exactly like this. They were not executed.
Straight up, we failed. Put too much of our manpower and resources on the other side of the planet, got complacent, and took one right up the *ss. It's been so long since we had a large distaster all the politicians forgot we needed those people, equipment and funds, for a reason.
g00b
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Anyone who tells you they (the Guard, the Reserves, and other branches of the military) have not been doing anything until the last day or two is a liar and a fool.
One of the guys in our squad has been flying NON STOP for about THREE DAYS already with his ENTIRE UNIT of C-130's out of Florida's Duke Field. As soon as the storm abated enough for them to get flying clearance, they were up.
That's a unit that does covert insertion, resupply, and recovery, along with air to air refueling of helicopters as their normal operational assignment.
However, they evacuated Duke Field at 7AM last Saturday, and began setting up for the relief effort as soon as the field was evacuated. They've been flying into and out of wrecked fields since the storm died out. They brought their own air traffic control, and their own security forces. They have Forward Air Controllers on the ground directing helicopters. They have been flying in supplies for the victims, and fuel for the choppers, NON STOP since the storm died out. The choppers are flying NON STOP. The pilots of the choppers are pushing so hard they are landing on fumes at the end of every flight.
I have friends and family in the Guard and the Reserves who are risking life and limb about 20 out of every 24 hours running rescue and relief operations around the clock. I've heard about all of the Bravo Sierra about nothing being done that I'm going to silently listen to. I'm beginning to get REAL sick of it.
These guys will run this relief and rescue operation until it is no longer needed, at whatever cost to them happens to occur. They'll be away from their families and homes, even though some of them are from the areas hit. When it is all over with, they'll be rewarded with a deployment to the Middle East, and since that deployment will be postponed due to this effort, they'll likely be over there for Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years, missing all of those holidays with their families as well.
So, if anyone tells you nothing was being done, you tell them that the 8th Special OPSSO Black Birds, AFSOD-A-N, flying MC-130E Combat Talons, have been on the job since the storm abated enough that they were cleared to fly, and they'll be there, flying maximum effort, until the job is done. And that's just ONE unit, one of many, that are on the job, and HAVE BEEN on the job, for days.
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I know there have been massive efforts. It's truly appreciated. The problem is logistics. Why did it take 3 days to get food and water to the civic center? They couldn't spare just 1 C-130 or Chinook?
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good info Captain Virgil Hilts
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FYI, for those asking wheres the help from those countries we dished out too... Banda Aceh's average income is US$250... annually.
The tsunami in SE Asia only hit coastal regions. The internal infrastructure was left untouched, ie you are comparing the blanket destruction of a massive area (in The USA) to a very spread out disaster of narrow bands of destruction (Tsunami).
edit and this to add:
Hotlines set up for help
03 September 2005
By ANNA SAUNDERS
New Zealand charities have opened hotlines to aid victims of Hurricane Katrina.
The United States embassy in Wellington has been overwhelmed with offers of support and condolences.
A spokeswoman said more than 100 people had offered to fly to New Orleans and help.
But she advised against well-meaning volunteers travelling to the affected areas, saying they should only do so if directed by an approved US voluntary agency.
"The unfortunate reality is that well-meaning self-dispatched volunteers can put themselves and others in harm's way and hamper rescue efforts."
New Zealand Red Cross acting director-general Graham Wrigley said the organisation had received many calls from the public wanting to give to those affected.
"It really shows the generosity of New Zealanders. After so many gave to those affected by the South Asia tsunami, it is extremely heartening to see that New Zealanders are still finding ways to help those in need," he said.
The Salvation Army will hold a street collection in Lambton Quay, Wellington, today. The charity opened its relief hotline at 1pm yesterday and by 5pm $1500 had been raised
Like I said, those that think no help has been offered or given need to read the news beyond their own borders a bit more.
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Originally posted by g00b
The part I have trouble fathoming is just the basic distribution of food and water. It should not take DAYS to load up a couple of C-130's and airdrop supplies to the civic center and wherever else they are needed.
What percentage of those goods do you think would end up in 5 feet of water, and what percentage on top of the dome, risking those on the ground standing waiting for these to drop from the air? You *Do* realize that the only "dry area" was that of roof tops, right?
Originally posted by g00b
Also keep in mind we had DAYS to prepare for this. As soon as the skies were calm enough to fly we should have been performing massive rescue and resupply missions.
This was not a "surprise attack". We even had plans for scenarios exactly like this. They were not executed.
Straight up, we failed. Put too much of our manpower and resources on the other side of the planet, got complacent, and took one right up the *ss. It's been so long since we had a large distaster all the politicians forgot we needed those people, equipment and funds, for a reason.
g00b
As Krusher pointed out in another thread...We have 2 million people who live in the New Orleans area alone, not counting the areas hit in Mississippi and Alabama. We have 500 to 750,000 people who are still in the area. How many busses, helicopters, boats, trucks do you need to feed, water, move etc that many people? This isn't even counting the ones who fled early like they should and are now scattered around several states.
The flooded areas have made driving pretty damn tough and they have to bring fuel with them because there is none in the affected areas. We only have about 200 helicopters in the area with more showing up every day, they need fuel too. The fuel came from NO and now has to be brought from surrounding states. Just so you know, it is 1500 miles from El passo Texas to Houston and what 350 or so to NO from there. How the hell long do you think it takes to drive that far. The flood just happened Tuesday night, its now 3 days later. 248 truckloads of supplies have arrived and guess what, its not even enough for 1 day !
Just because we are a rich country doesnt mean we can perform miracles. Today the relief efforts have gotten much better but for cripes sakes its only been a few days cut the USA some slack.
After reading Krushers response above, care to volunteer to be the leader of Hurricane Prepardness board of FEMA for the next one? Here's a clue: You won't come up with a budget, nor a plan that will sell any politician the fact that 2,000,000 people will be displaced, and get funding for that.
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Just a question.
I agree the news media is not erxactly going to tell the whole truth. But urm how in the hell is anyone goping to get any idea of whats goling on if they live in the rest of the world, without them. Now maybe I'm daft but surely I can only go on what I see and hear unless of course you think I should just hop on a plane and go there.
Cmon guys. Think a mo. Perhaps you'd rather we didn't comment as its a US issue. Would you rather we didn't care at all?
Its a sad situation. One that seems from out here to be spiraling out of control. With not much help from your govt!
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Originally posted by g00b
I know there have been massive efforts. It's truly appreciated. The problem is logistics. Why did it take 3 days to get food and water to the civic center? They couldn't spare just 1 C-130 or Chinook?
1 C130 dropping supps would cause a human wave of panick, crushing and killing many more rushing to the drops (in the water mind you) than that of which it would save. (At least near the Dome or Convention center.)
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Skydancer, watch the news and realize the media do not know what's going on. The are not experts at what they are seeing. News comes out before the dust settles.
When Chernobyl exploded, a New York paper said "10,000 dead!"
as their headline.
When a guy at school told me about that, I told him my gues was 50 at most, and it turned out I was a lot closer to the truth than the idiot media.
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So you don't think this could have been handled better? :huh
They should have had trucks and busses and national guard READY TO GO before the storm hit. They did not. Poor planning. We are now playing catch-up. And doing a good job of it, but that does not excuse the lack of foresight and planning.
g00b
P.S. too all you taking exception to dropping supplies from C-130's. If I were in NO I would gladly swim 1000 yrds to secure food and water. Second, there are plenty of choppers in the area.
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If they prepositioned supplies in NO, the supplies would have been destroyed along with everthing else.
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Originally posted by g00b
So you don't think this could have been handled better? :huh
They should have had trucks and busses and national guard READY TO GO before the storm hit. They did not. Poor planning. We are now playing catch-up. And doing a good job of it, but that does not excuse the lack of foresight and planning.
g00b
Absolutely. 9/11 could have been handled better. Asian Tsunami could have been handled better. PEARL HARBOR could have been handled better. What makes human beings unique is the ability to recover when their habitat is destroyed or changed. All the preparation in the WORLD will NEVER prepare you for the real thing, whether it be war, famine, catastrophe, etc. The BEST thing we do is recovery, lend a hand, lend a dollar and move on. So have you contributed anything to this disaster besides critisism?
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Why all the illogical defences for our countries poor performance? I'm as patriotic as the next guy. But to suggest that we did all we could, is just asinine. They could have driven all the way from Houston in 24 hours. Presuming nobody was smart enough to stage things a bit closer.
You folks have such low standards. You just assume that everyone in power is a complete fool and we shouldn't expect anything more for our tax dollars.
And Ripsnort, this is not a war. It is a natural disaster which was forecast almost a week in advance. If it were a tsunami with no warning I would expect this type of responce. But we knew bout this ahead of time! We knew there was a large chance of something like this happening and completely failed to have an appropriate responce ready.
If you disagree, fine. But I just don't see it.
g00b
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Holden are you realy saying that only about 50 people died as a result of Chernobyl:huh
You are kidding right? Or are you forgetting that people will be dying from the effects of radiation for the next few hundred years if not longer.
I think the news media is a more accurate source than some of what I read in here! Not much more but hey :rolleyes:
And g00b I think you are right there mate. Yes some heroic stuff is going on. Yes I take my hat off to those working to save the situation. But it is surely daft not to ask why the Govt has been so slow in its reaction.
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Due to the initial explosion and the firefighting efforts, yes.
Due to thyroid cancers and other ligering effects, no.
I was obviously talking of the initial press reports. 10,000 initial deaths is way off; 50 initial deaths is within a dozen or so.
I was using this as an illustration that you should not take the correctness of media reports as gospel. If you do you will be forever confused.
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Originally posted by g00b
Why all the illogical defences for our countries poor performance? I'm as patriotic as the next guy. But to suggest that we did all we could, is just asinine. They could have driven all the way from Houston in 24 hours. Presuming nobody was smart enough to stage things a bit closer.
We DIDN'T do the best we could, even your PRESIDENT said that you dolt! What I am saying is we can sit here and play couch-quarterback AFTER the fact all we want! But its NOT gonna change a dang thing, for the future either! NOTHING goes as planned, in war, famine, catastrophe...ever! IN HISTORY! Did you forget about Wed. when reports of rescue choppers calling off rescues due to GROUND FIRE?!?!?! THAT will certainly ruin a good day of being a good samaritan!
Sorry, I'm ranting, just getting SICK AND FRICKING TIRED of people POINTING FINGERS instead of being PRO-ACTIVE AND HELPING!
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So urm Rip what are you doing to help other than arguing on this Bbs? Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone as our resident pastor might say!
I prepare to stand and be corrected here but then again....
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An appropriate responce would have likely kept all the looting, shooting, etc. to a minimum. I do not think it's unreasonable to have expected at least a couple thousand national gaurd in place after 24 hours. That would have gone a long ways towards keeping the peace.
g00b
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Originally posted by Skydancer
So urm Rip what are you doing to help other than arguing on this Bbs? Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone as our resident pastor might say!
I prepare to stand and be corrected here but then again....
If you must know...Lets just say I'm getting a new laptop due to the $$ I've donated in the last 2 days.
Which is fine with me. We'll see if we can't donate more next week. I'm no saint. Drop in the bucket. More drops is more buckets. More buckets is recovery.
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Good then we have both done what we can. Nowe can we get on with the arguing;)
Oh no hang on I can hear wait yes far off about a 150 miles away the sound of my poor old mother! ;) :rofl :aok
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Good then we have both done what we can. Nowe can we get on with the arguing;)
Oh no hang on I can hear wait yes far off about a 150 miles away the sound of my poor old mother! ;) :rofl :aok
:rofl
Good night. I'm outta here as well. Take care.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Indeed but somewhere down the line someone has to take responsibility for the failure! Otherwise it will happen again and again. Sea levelsd are set to rise don't ya know and Europe will face that too. The Dutch ought to be watching pretty closely and learning how not to manage the situation !
Cool, so you blame the Tsunami on Thailnad then, eh?
I'm starting to understand your "flawed logic".
Karaya
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Who gives away free laptops for donations received?
What a bizzare concept.
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LOL Curval, I read it that way too...someone is tired.
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this is all pretty confusing to me...
Now you guys are saying that becuase government acted in a slow and ineffiecent manner....
we need even more and bigger government and governmental control to solve the problem?
lazs
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Originally posted by g00b
Why all the illogical defences for our countries poor performance?
g00b
Why the pathological rush to judge our countries performance on what certainly is the largest natural disaster in US history?
Look we all know things went wrong, the finger pointing is not helping. Give it week and we all will support a serious investigation into what went wrong and what we can do to better prepare.
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Skyprancer,
No one questions your interest in the situation. Several of us certainly question your intent in the manner of your posts. Frankly the majority of what you put on the bbs is negative, non constructive and comes accross as arrogant and derogatory. If you cannot see that, I can't help you. Frankly you don't help a damn bit in what you say and it makes some of us rather angry.
Goob.
Lets examone what you say here. First they did not have 5 days advance warning of a cat 5 huricane. They sure didn't have 5 days warning of where it was going to hit and where the most damage was going to be. Given that the last turn before hitting shore was less than 10 hours before land fall it is a bit hard to decide where to "pre plan" and pre place supplies.
There was not 5 days warning of the magnitude of the storm. Remember it hit Florida and didn't do much at all even though parts of that state are still recovering from hurricanes from prior years.
Given the state of technology no one could predict it was going to ramp up to cat 5 in the 2 days before it hit LA. and Mississippi much less where it was going to hit over the rather large area of the gulf coast.
Just in what kind of facilities are they going to place those supplies at? They can't simply drive a bunch of trucks to a spot on the road and just dump it or stop and wait. If the main access road into the area is cut how are they supposed to get the trucks to that area? Who is going to decide exactly how many of those supplies are going to be needed? You? Based on what?
Like it or not, there is no agency that has the money and resources to have equipment, manpower and supplies of all types standing by waiting to jump into action at a mopments notice. Like I said before it takes about 24 hours just to get orders cut and that is AFTER a determination is made that the Nat Guard in any area will be needed. BTW that is a state responsibility, the Nat. Guard belongs to them and they have the primary mission of civil defense and disaster relief. Adjoining states can't send their troops over until they are federalized. Again someone has to know they will be needed, know how many will be needed and where, then cut the orders and gather the troops together. Activating a unit, in good times, takes 24 to 72 hours before they can move out. I've been a Mobilization Officer and have had to help plan for this in my home state and in Ft. Jackson South Carolina. That includes using Guard, Reserve and Active Duty units to get it done. The larget the mobilization the longer it takes as the more resources for transportation they need to get it done.
Once they troops are activated you must move supplies from some place else to the area where they can be delivered close to the area of need. You still have to move them, mostly by truck and you need roads for that. Remember the majority of the helos were being used for rescue, not supplies and helos are limited by what they can carry and how much fuel is available. Fuel has to be brought in, it isn't there to use as it's UNDER WATER and contaminated.
It takes a day or 2 to locate and start to move the supplies. Now we are up to day 3 at the earliest to day 4, pretty much what happened. After the equipment is there it has to be reloaded to deliver to an area where it can get to the folks who need it and a distruibution point. Another day so now we're at day 5.
Guess what, that is almost exactly the time schedule as it happened.
Budget cuts do not allow stockpiling of misc supplies and equipment in areas for a "just in case" scenario. Supplies are purchased on a as needed basis and the same for heavy equipment. Supplies also have a definite shelf life. You cannot exceed that time and still use them. That includes fuel, food and other consumable items like medical supplies. It has been years since the old cold war civil defense stock piles were expired and destroyed or consumed, the shelters deactivated and turned to other uses.
The city was under a mandatory evacuation. From the footage of the area and in particular the looters it's quite obvious a lot of very able bodied folks did not evacuate. Rescuers have seen car after car still in the driveways of homes under water. Transportation wasn't an issue for everyone that stayed behind. Given that this was an area that was populated by people who are not prisoners, they could not be forcably ejected from their homes even if there was enough Police to do the job which there wasn't.
Got a clue for you here on another issue. If you understand people in a stressfull situation you have to know that getting help to a large group requires structure. If you just dump a bunch of stuff by air you'll get a mob situation and cause more casualties than you could possibly prevent. The most able bodied will move out very fast and it will be who can get the most stuff the fastest and the devil take the hind most. That means it won't be equitably distributed and the weak will be hurt trying to get it, IF it lands where it can be reached. The items dropped by air are also heavy and you can't drop it right on the people without killing them. Dispersion is also a normal function of dropping small items by air and a 5 lb package dropped at 175 MPH from 750 to 1000' will do some serious damage both to the item dropped and the object or person it lands on. It will take a higher drop due to the tall buildings in the area of a major city.
Now this post has been long enough but I am pretty PO'ed at some of the criticism levied on a situation that could not be forseen or prepared for. It's rather obvious that several of the posts are from folk, who frankly have no clue about what is involved in disaster planning and response issues. Before you simply dump crap on your keyboard and complain (the term is female dog) stop and try to think about how it would have to be done and look to see what is being done.
Laz is quite right in a couple things. The government is not prescient, omnipotent and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. It can only react in a lot of cases and given the reality of getting things done, takes time to make things happen.
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Hey Mav the attitude of righteousness and superiority displayed by some of your fellow countrymen regarding the rest of the world makes a few people damn angry too I'm sure. But we can't all hold ther same opinion. I sincerely think a BBs is a discussion board. That means people discuss and share their opinions doesn't it. We have all sorts in here.
Personaly I rarely get damn angry by what I read in here. Its interesting enlightening sometimes. I've had my opinion changed and learned some stuff too.
I'm sorry my opininion makes you angry. I don't share em to do that I share em because I think about these issues too, and want to get involved in the discussion. Maybe you ought to consider that it is a positive thing for people from other places to be interested enough in where you are from to want to get involved in the discussion and care about what is going on. Be a poor show if we were all only concerned about our own little bit of real estate wouldn't it?
I have been accused of being full of hatred and arrogance etc by other members. including the guy who holds the keys to this place. I can only surmise that there is some kind of culture gap going on here. In my country it is quite normal for people to hold extremely opposing views and still be mates discuss and argue things over a pint etc without thinking the other is some kind of lunatic, or accusing them of hatred and intolerance!
No offense is meant ok.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I have been accused of being full of hatred and arrogance etc by other members. including the guy who holds the keys to this place.
There is another possible conclusion. Let me praphrase it. If several people tell you you smell like a goat, it is illogical to assume that their noses are defective rather than your hygene is.
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I have been to england and I have met a lot of english people.... believe me.... there is a HUGE cultural gap... so much so that we can't even talk about the same subject and understand what the other person is saying...
things that your people take for granted as being a truth are just the oppossite for us.. things you revere and expect that everyone does.... we despise and try to wipe out... your basic ideas of government and freedom differ wildly from ours.
both sides take certain things for granted about what people want and need and both sides are wrong when it comes to the other.
To me... Talking to you is like talking to a martian.
That being said.... there are people here that have a british mindset and would be happier in your country (except for the weather of course) and I have met some brits that would be happier living in America.... in fact, I know several who live here now that are thrilled to be here instead of england... they grow farther from it every day.
One I know lives out on a farm and has a remington pump 12 guage and a Smith .357 revolver... he enjoys tweaking his british visitors by shooting them in the back yard... He still sounds british... but..
lazs
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Oh boy Maverik do read all the post or just the bit that lets you aim another kick?
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Hey Lazs
(http://www.melaman2.com/cartoons/looney/0-marvin/marvin-31.jpg)
:aok
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Yes I did read it. I figured you would recognise the situation if I used your own words. I was wrong. I have no idea of how else to express it to you that I have not already used.
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Are you always right then:lol
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Ok...I give up... what does the helmeted bowling ball woth the LSD background have to do with anything?
and.. I am sure maverick is wondering.... are you ever right? I know I am wondering it.
lazs
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He's Marvin the Martian. Surely you seen him. You guys made the loony toons!
Oh I'm both wrong about some things a right about others. Just like most people.
The trick is working out when I'm right and when I'm wrong.
Pity Mav couldn't read the bit about
"I'm sorry my opininion makes you angry. I don't share em to do that I share em because I think about these issues too, and want to get involved in the discussion. Maybe you ought to consider that it is a positive thing for people from other places to be interested enough in where you are from to want to get involved in the discussion and care about what is going on. Be a poor show if we were all only concerned about our own little bit of real estate wouldn't it?"
or
"In my country it is quite normal for people to hold extremely opposing views and still be mates discuss and argue things over a pint etc without thinking the other is some kind of lunatic, or accusing them of hatred and intolerance!
No offense is meant ok."
He just chose one line and continued in that oh so condescending tone! Oh well nevermind guess he wouldn't buy me a pint.;):lol
(Whatever happened to that crazy jb88 arty bloke? just an idle thought!)
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Skydancer last post to reply to you and you can have the last word I don't care as you are beneath notice as far as I am concerned any more.
Like I said before, I did read your post. The problem is you have such a negative manner in speaking that comes accross as very arrogant, and certainly self serving. Now you are not here in the states, you are not getting the entire information and your comments are out of line. You don't argue except to be obtuse, you just lambast and criticise.
The best thing you can do is have a nice big cup of STFU. You even admit that you have been told by several folks including those responsible for the bbs that your posts are not appreciated. Take a freaking hint, better yet, take a hike and go away.
Skuzzy if you feel this is over the top I can understand it if you delete it but I frankly am fed up with this load of manure being sent over from the Brit side. I cannot believe that this is a shinnig example of that society.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
He's Marvin the Martian. Surely you seen him. You guys made the loony toons!
Oh I'm both wrong about some things a right about others. Just like most people.
The trick is working out when I'm right and when I'm wrong.
Pity Mav couldn't read the bit about
"I'm sorry my opininion makes you angry. I don't share em to do that I share em because I think about these issues too, and want to get involved in the discussion. Maybe you ought to consider that it is a positive thing for people from other places to be interested enough in where you are from to want to get involved in the discussion and care about what is going on. Be a poor show if we were all only concerned about our own little bit of real estate wouldn't it?"
or
"In my country it is quite normal for people to hold extremely opposing views and still be mates discuss and argue things over a pint etc without thinking the other is some kind of lunatic, or accusing them of hatred and intolerance!
No offense is meant ok."
He just chose one line and continued in that oh so condescending tone! Oh well nevermind guess he wouldn't buy me a pint.;):lol
(Whatever happened to that crazy jb88 arty bloke? just an idle thought!)
Sky,
It is not your opinion that pisses people off, it is your attitude and how you present that opinion.
You come off, very often as a high and mighty know it all. That is hard to swallow when you are talking about something you know very little about. (like guns, US politics, this storm, etc)
Hell it's hard to take when you do know what your talking about.
No one it telling you, you cant have an opinion, just stop acting like it is more then that.
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Originally posted by g00b
I know there have been massive efforts. It's truly appreciated. The problem is logistics. Why did it take 3 days to get food and water to the civic center? They couldn't spare just 1 C-130 or Chinook?
The closest place the Air force can land is 160 miles away--or at least for the first few days--THEN ya gotta figger out how to GET stuff there, as roads are gone. (THAT was their problem with the hundred+ Zodiacs they flew in--couldnt get them to N.O.)
Alas, N.O. has something like a THOUSAND school buses, which the Mayor never ordered moved, which are now under water.
The dome was designated as a shelter, but they neglected to stock it with provisions that could match the possible #'s of people showing up... woulda been sweet had they parked some of those afore-mentioned school buses there, on high-ground... The Mayor only ordered evacuation on Saturday, after prodding by Feds---and there was no effort to knock on doors to get that word out. ...(But, its all Bush's fault)And finally, only 25% of Louisiana's Guard is in Iraq...having the numbers of guys/gals available isnt the issue--This disaster makes all previous ones pale...the Twin Towers didnt have 500,000 people LIVING in them, the psunami event lasted a short while and was gone, all the LIVING victims were neatly arranged in easily accessible areas (AND they didnt shoot at rescuers)