Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: SAS_KID on September 06, 2005, 02:27:31 AM
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I am having trouble getting away from enemy planes ranging from the a6m to the yak9u and i just cant shake them off my six. Ive tried possible manuevers like the split-S and so on but i cant shake them. I read on the complete profile of the the 190 A-5 that if u can use the high roll rate the right way you can make an enemy plane get out of sync so if there are any tips on how to do this or setup some time in the TA to show me i would love any help i can get.
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you've always got a chance of beating them if someone is diving on you wait till they get close and roll the plane upside down and dive at an angle its easier for them to line up you flying straight, if you time it right you should get away or buy yourself some time at least to escape.
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Sorry i had to bail out on you yesterday. Had to 'emergency-log'.
While i almost never fly 190, i know when i have trouble killing them. Keep moving. Roll over and back again (scissoring like) - 190 roll rate makes that easy - , thatll deny the opponent a decent shot. Just dont stay steady for longer than one or two secs and keep an eye on what your opponent does at all times. Keep him 'out of sync' ie dont let his wings get parallel to yours (hell get a shot then). Negative Gs also make a shot difficult.
As for long time survival: Its always difficult once someone remotly decent has saddled up on your six. Prevention is very important - SA - situational awareness. Best thing is not to let anyone get on you six in the first place.
Easier said than done, i know. And it cant be avoided at all times, so:
If you dont have 'help' nearby or dont want it....:
Slower plane: Run. or rather - extend to 1.5 or 2 K by diving shallowly, climb a bit and reverse once you feel you have at least evened out the odds a bit. (im no expert here since im currently learning to fly th efaster rides as well - but one advice Zaphod gave me is very good: keep the fight on your turf, fight by your rules, not his)
Faster plane: ie youre the better turner/opponent dives in high speed. Try for an overshoot. Get the fight slow and try to gain advantage by keeping the opponent busy. Try to change youre role from defender to agressor.
I hope this isnt all too confusing :).
There isnt really a 'recipe' on what to do with a plane on your six. It depends a lot on the situation and the pilots (and their flying style) involved.
Try different things. Be creative. Youll know if it works or not :D .
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Faster plane: ie youre the better turner/opponent dives in high speed. Try for an overshoot. Get the fight slow and try to gain advantage by keeping the opponent busy. Try to change youre role from defender to agressor.
While a good idea in many other planes the 190 doesn't work like that unfortunatly.
Never get slow in a 190, and I mean NEVER unless you are very used to it. It is the worst turning fighter in the game and it doesn't have combat flaps. First notch of flaps extends at 170, at that speed you are already dead.
190's are tough SAS_KID, they are not beginners planes, they aren't even "average" pilot planes most of the time. While an avergae pilot may be able to zoom in and out of a fight getting some kills he will die right away when he loses his alt.
The fast roll rate doesn't help that much in AH, it is nice to have but don't expect it to get you out of situations against most planes.
Low speed scissors against planes that roll very slow at slow speeds (ie P47, P38 if engines aren't used to help roll, tiffie) can save you. But then comes the problem, everyone will outturn you and outfly you at slow speeds. Most planes wil be able to just throttle back, extend flaps and wait for you to stop scissoring or till they get snap shots at you.
People use stick stirring to survive in 190s (they use it in all planes but 190's do it extra well thanks to roll speed). Stick stirring is generally frowned up on and considered cheating so don't do it.
It is a tough plane to get away in, it accelerates poorly and it can't turn for S***. Once without speed you're a sitting duck.
Against zekes you can run (in the long run) make sure never to let them close. Against Yak 9U's you better be good, damn good if you wanna beat even a poor Yak 9 pilot. The Yak 9 holds all advantages except for roll rate but it rolls fast enough to give you troubles.
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keep the nose up until a wing stalls +) you maybe accused of stick stirring... but hey you did nothing wrong and you may have shaken your opponent long enough for you to extend...
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An A-5 in a stall looks like a damn leaf falling from a tree, it is IMPOSSIBLE to hit (at least by aiming at it).
I hate A-5's in a stall.
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i took a dora to 125 last night, and got a 109g10 to auger trying to stay in the slow fight. (wont mention who):D
ther are a few planes even more unstable that slow, esp the 109's. they hit that stall edge and wing over rather dramatically.
you can use the same manuevers with an a5 i did with the dora. get into a rolling scissors, then on the way down from the last roll, throttle zero, tail skid to drop E, and bring that baby to 125 with full flaps. you can still roll, and flat tun, and tail slide to evade shots. if the attacker goes up (like a good 109 will do) you lag follow with WEP to keep the nose in the air. as they invert and come down again, you do a quick snap stall, and pull out the opposite direction (like an accellerated split S) you do that throttle chopped, and they buzz right underneath you, you get a great snapshot with them comming right up in front of your cowl.
from there, you can wallow NOT flop low by the trees, and a fast mover usually will get to greedy to pull out early enough, and auger or stall over trying to follow your flat turn that slow.
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I really wish I had film of Triumph and me going at it last night in the MA. I was in a spit 9 and he was in a 109, Triumph if you have film please post it as it shows some awesome evasives you can use in the 109. The fight started at about 12K CO E, he stayed fast the 1st merge and owned the fight the whole time, he had me doing some crazy maneuvers in that spit9, anyways the fight was delayed do to some other planes coming in and we ended up goin at it again, this time he was much slower, to my spits atvantage... it took everything I had to stay behind him, he was split S ing dropping gear, scissoring, every evasive you can think of, I was begininng to think I would never get him the fight when on for a good 3 min until we got down to the deck and I finally got a solution on him. normally I can eat german planes for breakfast but if you find 1 flown by a good stick watch it, I never thought a 109 had so many tricks but if flown correctly actually is pretty defensive...
Triumph - best fight I've had yet
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normally I can eat german planes for breakfast ---iceman24
:rofl
Not to incite a riot or poke fun at you,but this statement makes me laugh. I recall several good fights where you didnt eat anything except lead.
JB12
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SA prepartion patience and knowing when to leave seem to be the fundimentals of fw flying. I didnt do this last night and got
killed a HUGE number of times lol. Its not like a spitv where you
can 'arcade fight' right from takeoff. Try using a dora instead of
a5. A5s better turning can work againest it in a big fight as you
bleed speed from better turning someone will be waiting to jump
you best evasive in a fw is to dive and run on the deck :aok
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Originally posted by Iceman24
I really wish I had film of Triumph and me going at it last night in the MA. I was in a spit 9 and he was in a 109, Triumph if you have film please post it as it shows some awesome evasives you can use in the 109.
Iceman the 109 is completely different then the 190. 109 is WAY easyer to fly. Been flying german planes for over four years and still rather be in a 109. 109s can turn if you dont have gondies but 190s are flying bricks.
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Thank you for the good advice and about how i should prlly use the D-9 but, i just have 2 final questins. How do you tail slide and what is scissors move.
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Can eat most German planes for breakfast except ones flown by JB's, should have made that statement lol
Of coarse now when I do run into you guys I'm usually outnumbered.
Lately you guys have become my arch enemy or something... everywhere I go I run into ya'll guys... did someone put a hit on me or was it the German plane comment lol J/K bro's
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
Thank you for the good advice and about how i should prlly use the D-9 but, i just have 2 final questins. How do you tail slide and what is scissors move.
you can fly the A5 just like the D9 in the situations i mentioned.
as far as a tail slide, it is flying in 1 direction while kicking full rudder to dramatically slow the plane down. you have to keep the plane flying in the same direction, not letting the rudder "turn" the plane.
it's kind of like the original air brake
as for scissors, do a google search or search here. i am bad at describing, and if you saw a diagram you'd probably get it real quick.
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
what is scissors move.
click this link and read the article
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html)
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wow that was a nice link tequila. thank you. And thank you all for helping put another weapon on the market :D
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"Tricks" hardly ever fool a good player, but can help against the average MA player --
and here are a couple my brother (an average player who loves teh butcher bird) showed me with the A8, taking advantage of the roll rate.
My favorite goes for the auger proxy kill, and works more than it should. As the attacker comes in with a bit more speed than you, roll 180 degrees to invert, and yank hard down. If the attacker follows the move, roll back upright right above the ground and pull up -- if he tries to do same, he cant get around fast enough to avoid the crash. (Moves that rely on stupidity arent reliable, but are immensely satidfying when they work.) If attacker has lots more speed/energy, teh lag roll (as described by redd -- wait, roll, let em zip under you, finish roll pulling into their path and fire) rules -- and has the advantage of often giving guns solution.
For quick evasion, as they close roll onto R wing and pull -- they follow; then roll onto L like you're going to do it again -- as they start to follow, always slower rolling than you, quickly roll back to R and pull hard. They wont be able to follow, and it'll give you chance to separate some towards friendlies.
When you're in a swarm of baddies in a 190, its very hard to saty alive unless you're way faster/higher though.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
if the attacker goes up (like a good 109 will do) you lag follow with WEP to keep the nose in the air. as they invert and come down again, you do a quick snap stall, and pull out the opposite direction (like an accellerated split S) you do that throttle chopped, and they buzz right underneath you
I don't think I understand the 190s enough to understand what you mean. Do you have any films of this? How can you go from 125 with full flaps to split S in a dora?
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The big problem with scissors is that any AH plane will roll with you at low speeds with a bit of rudder aid. At speeds above 350 mph, roll is only an advantage against planes with terrible roll rate at these speeds, like the Zeke, even in these cases, high roll rate is only an anecdotycal deffensive advantage in the MA.
On the other hand, high roll rate becomes a clear offensive advantage at hi speeds. You will be able to correct your aim quick at speeds up to 400mph.
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People use stick stirring to survive in 190s (they use it in all planes but 190's do it extra well thanks to roll speed). Stick stirring is generally frowned up on and considered cheating so don't do it.
What do you mean by " stick- stirring "?
When i fly the 190-A-5 on purpose i will get someone on my tail,
set my elevator trim slightly above level pull straight up while
using full right rudder and moving my joystick too the rear
right corner of the base.This creates a really tight and fast spiral
turn which slows me down really fast while the enemy planes goes right on by.This manuver works really well in the 190-A-5 but it is even crazier too use it in the Seafire.
SAS_KID try takin a 190-A-5 with 100% fuel up for a spin.Then whenyou get out on the runway too taxi out,hold down the shift key,hit F and cycle your fuel too " FORWARD TANK ".Let it go until forward tank is at 50% then shift back too the aft tank.The 190's store the majority of the fuel in the front of the aircraft,when you do the fuel that way it fly's and runs like a dream.
You don,t need too be any skill level too have fun in a 190.
If flying a 190 out and Ho shooting the first person you see?Then so be it your having FUN and thats all that counts.
If you need any 1 on 1 help SAS PM me we'll work out a time.
<>
:aok
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I strongly advice everybody to not read Pinchehoto's post.
SHEESH
What you are doing is gaming the game pancheto, it is stick stirring. Those fast movements will appear "choppy" or "warpy" on others computers making it nearly impossible to hit. Try to perform an overshoot by just throttling back.
Have fun, but remember, you are playing against other people that are real. You want to start gaming a game, go play solitare or something against a computer.
I'll try to help ya out if you see me in MA, let me know you need training Pinchehoto.
I love callling you that PINCHEHOTO!
:D
P.S., you misspelled your name. :D
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I strongly advice everybody to not read Pinchehoto's post.
SHEESH
What you are doing is gaming the game pancheto, it is stick stirring. Those fast movements will appear "choppy" or "warpy" on others computers making it nearly impossible to hit. Try to perform an overshoot by just throttling back.
Have fun, but remember, you are playing against other people that are real. You want to start gaming a game, go play solitare or something against a computer.
I'll try to help ya out if you see me in MA, let me know you need training Pinchehoto.
I love callling you that PINCHEHOTO!
that is a normal reply kermit.
Of course anything that helps you get out of getting shot down is CHEATING too others.It workx for me thank you very much.
My 15$ will fly how i want too B.
Not only will i show others how too perform this manuver,
i will show you how too defend against it.
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:lol
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I fly 190's a lot (mostly the A8 but I do fly them all including the Ta-152) and have for a long time. They are consistantly my best planes (I usually end camp close to 4 K/D in each of them).
First a few observasions on comments made above:
Originally posted by Wilbus
Never get slow in a 190, and I mean NEVER unless you are very used to it. It is the worst turning fighter in the game and it doesn't have combat flaps. First notch of flaps extends at 170, at that speed you are already dead.
I fully agree with this. Never get slow, never dump flaps. You can turn with a 190 but have do do it gently, with finess. Never turn so tight as to let the stall buzzer to sound. Coming into a fight fast you're good for about 360-540 degrees of turning then it's time to extend and re-gain E.
Originally posted by Wilbus
The fast roll rate doesn't help that much in AH, it is nice to have but don't expect it to get you out of situations against most planes.
Disagree. See my comments further below.
Originally posted by red300
you best evasive in a fw is to dive and run on the deck :aok
Sadly, this is true. Few planes can stay with a 190 that has a head of steam and extending is often the key to survival. When being chased by someone with slightly less speed you'll need to extend 3-3.5K in order to get the nose back around on them.
Originally posted by MANDO
The big problem with scissors is that any AH plane will roll with you at low speeds with a bit of rudder aid. At speeds above 350 mph, roll is only an advantage against planes with terrible roll rate at these speeds, like the Zeke, even in these cases, high roll rate is only an anecdotycal deffensive advantage in the MA.
Not true. The 190's as a family (except maybe the Ta-152) will out-roll anything else in the game at any speed. And here-in lies the key to survival and success.
The 190's roll SO well that they literally roll on their axis with no lateral or vertical deflection. This makes the inexperienced think that the roll advantage isn't really a useful tool. That simply isn't the case.
If you have altitude go into a dive. At 500 mph indicated the 190's will start to shudder. Not to worry, they are very strong aircraft.
At speeds over 400 many if not most of the planes in the plane-set start to suffer from either compression or loss of roll rate. For those that compress you are home free. They have to either pull out or cut throttle. Either way you gain the E advantage. You can extend in a zoom climb, reverse and repeat.
For those that lose roll rate you can change direction quickly by rolling and pulling back on the yoke leaving them floundering to try to stay with you. Because they lose roll rate they are working AGAINST the aerodynamics of their aircraft trying to force the roll and in doing so they are bleeding E. If they use rudder to help themselves roll they bleed even more E. Again, either way this is to your advantage. Zoom climb, extend, reverse, rinse and repeat.
If you're caught low by someone with equal or more speed, use a flat scissors. The awsome roll rate of the 190 allows you to reverse orientation MUCH more quickly than your opponent. Watch behind you the entire time. You should be able to bring your opponent 180 degrees out of phase within only a few reversals. When you reach this point extend your turn until he's almost back in phase with you then reverse and repeat. One of 2 things will likely happen. He will overshoot and when he does you need to be ready to take advantage of the shot on his six or you will find yourself coming around nose to nose with him for the deflection shot.
If your faster than a close chasing opponent use a rolling scissors. This is more difficult in a 190 than other planes due to the aformentioned tendency of the 190's to roll on thier axis. You'll need to use a little rudder deflection to accomplish this but keep it to a minimum. You don't want to bleed too much speed. Open the arch of your scissors just enough to get your opponent to fly by then take the six or possibly high deflection shot as he does.
These tactics aren't going to save you 100% of the time but no tactic will. They WILL improve your survival rate and your kill rate by using a strength unique to the 190's.
Hope that helps.
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"Tricks" hardly ever fool a good player, but can help against the average MA player --
and THAT'S the guy I'm lookin for:aok Saw 3-4 D40's other night and got scared, until I Realized the 56th was Nit--got 1 of them, wounded 1 of the others. I think the WORST guy from the 56th would spank me even if he had to carry 1k eggs:furious
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Did someone just hack my account I never recalled typing this post.:huh
Edit: Nor any of the posts within this topic besides this one...
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I just noticed that Kermit de frog responded to a post from 2005 that brought it to the top of the forum.
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whoa no wonder. :lol
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A lotta that kinda BS going around as of late.
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This may be an old thread but BaldEagl hit the nail on the head. Very nice writeup on a subject usually poorly understood.