Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on September 06, 2005, 08:16:36 AM
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The common defense"
From What? Isn't one of the main reasons for a Federal government to provide a means to protect the people? Shouldn't we expect at least competent response from our Federal govt. in times of crisis? Is the Department of Homeland Security just there to respond to terrorist attacks?
We were promised in the aftermath of 9-11 that our Govt' would improve the command and control, communications and disaster response mechanisms so that the "common defense" would be provided for in a fashion that was better than before. It didn't happen.
The investigation needs to start NOW, while the horror is still fresh and the bodies are still being collected.
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Dude! Iraq is about to sign its first Constitution!
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feds can't step in until asked to by the state
please describe in 100 words or less, exactly how you would have handled this disaster better?
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You want to pay more taxes for an even bigger government?
Wouldn't you be better off just buying insurance?
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The common defense"
From What? Isn't one of the main reasons for a Federal government to provide a means to protect the people? Shouldn't we expect at least competent response from our Federal govt. in times of crisis? Is the Department of Homeland Security just there to respond to terrorist attacks?
We were promised in the aftermath of 9-11 that our Govt' would improve the command and control, communications and disaster response mechanisms so that the "common defense" would be provided for in a fashion that was better than before. It didn't happen.
The investigation needs to start NOW, while the horror is still fresh and the bodies are still being collected.
You might want to research what measures Blanco took on the Saturday before...
Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.
The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.
A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.
Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680_pf.html
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But if you decide to question democrats of their co-failure in this tragic event, careful, because they will punch you! Even if you are the President! (http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054594)[/b]:huh :eek:
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Senator Mary Landrieu is an idiot. Is this the Senator that was complaining about only having one crane working to fix the floodwall?
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
Senator Mary Landrieu is an idiot. Is this the Senator that was complaining about only having one crane working to fix the floodwall?
Yes, and there was only ROOM ENOUGH for one on that Levee wall. She Daddy is the Mayor of NO (D).
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go git em tahgut :rofl
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Oh come on!
Attacking an idiotic Senator makes it all OK?
The President expressed surprise at the squalor in the Superdome THREE DAYS after the hurricane. Was he too busy clearing brush at the ranch?
There is no excuse for the poor response to this disaster.
FEMA failed, Homeland Security failed, Louisiana failed and New Orleans failed. Two of those 4 entities answer to President Bush. When is he gonna stop trying to spin failures into successes and actually do something?
WMD's? No we didn't really attack because of WMD's!
Bin Laden? He's not that important!
FEMA? Isn't that a bone in your leg?
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Deleted.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Governments at all levels failed," Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, said at the Capitol. She announced that the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee (search) would hold hearings, adding, "It is difficult to understand the lack of preparedness and the ineffective initial response to a disaster that had been predicted for years, and for which specific, dire warnings had been given for days."
:aok
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It continues to amaze me that in this country so many people are so completely ignorant of the structure of our governmental systems in these United States. Many posts on this BBS just re-enforce that opinion.
These same people would never agree to live under a federal dictatorship yet at times like these this is exactly what they call for.
It's a simple equation, if you want one man to blame then you must give one man the power.
It is evident for anyone with eyes to see that is not blinded by their ideology that the local authorities were grossly unprepared for this event. Anyone who lives, as I do, in a hurricane zone knows this.
The CYA machine is in full swing to cover one more liberal/democrat administrations major Screw Up!
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Deleted.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
Hmm, you must be one 'o dem libruls that like to point fingahs.
You were saying something about "moral ethics"?
Yeah Rip, no finger pointing by you, ever
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When is he gonna stop trying to spin failures into successes and actually do something?
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is the glass half empty or half full?
It would have been better to have the full might of the military fueled and ready to go a few hours after the storm hit but thats being unrealistic and a bit ignorant. It took three weeks to get the machine started on Afganistan after 9/11
Three days aint too bad.
Cheer up and do something useful
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Is this true? Saw this Sept 04.
Hurricane Floyd vs. Hurricane Katrina
Clinton in charge vs. Bush in charge
Clinton is at a conference in New Zealand. He hears that it's likely
the hurricane will hit land. He leaves the conference early to return
to US.
Bush is on vacation and continues to stay on vacation.
_____________
Enroute to USA Clinton declares a state of emergency which mobilizes
the big C-8 transport airplanes and ships and trucks to load with
water, medical supplies, tents, food, etc. National Guard troops get
ready.
Bush stays on vacation and does nothing. Local officials urge all
people to evacuate. (There are many, many poor people who do not have
access to cars and it's the end of the month and they have not been
paid and have no money to pay for transportation.) The local
authorities eventually open the Superdome to house those who could
not leave.
_____________
Hurricane Floyd moves onto and over the land.
Hurricane Katrina moves onto and over the land.
_____________
Clinton orders relief efforts to move in right after hurricane has
passed. Planes, trucks and boats are dispatched to the area.
Local politicians urge Bush to declare state of emergency and begin
relief efforts. Bush does nothing.
_____________
Relief efforts from effects of Hurricane Floyd begin.
Chaos begins to reign from effects of Hurricane Katrina. No water,
medical supplies, electricity, food, etc. People DIE from lack of
medical treatment, food, etc. The surrounding states begin to offer
their facilities to help house/care for people.
_____________
Clinton has his staff give him hourly updates on situation.
Bush remains on vacation. He goes golfing and fishing. He goes to a
special photo op at the birthday party of Sen. McCain. He attends a
concert and pretends to play the guitar. Bush's Secretary of State,
Condi Rice, attends the theater the evening after the hurricane and
the next day she goes shopping for expensive shoes. When she is
challenged by a fellow shopper ("What are you doing here? People are
homeless and losing their lives?"), Condi Rice has the security
personnel remove the woman from the store. Comfort relief/hospital
ship is supposed to LEAVE port in Boston this Sunday, September 11.
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if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
You might want to research what measures Blanco took on the Saturday before...
According to this article she declared a state emergency the Saturday before the storm. Which is true?
http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8601
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If it sounds just about right then it probably is.
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Deleted.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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If it just doesnt sound right, then it probably isn't.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
According to this article she declared a state emergency the Saturday before the storm. Which is true?
http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8601
I'd trust a legal memorandum before a democrat any day...
Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Deleted.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl And the funny part is, they scream "Where did you get your information, Rush Limbaugh?"
:rofl :rofl
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Is it normal for the federal government to take over in these types of situations or just hand over control to the state? I really don't know so don't think that i'm leading to something here, just wondering!!!
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the feds don't take over unless the state asks them too...
if the dems in LA had half a brain, they'd dumped to the feds as soon as they could...then their cries of inadequate response would have had at least some merit
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Any port in a storm.
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It continues to amaze me that in this country so many people are so completely ignorant of the structure of our governmental systems in these United States. Many posts on this BBS just re-enforce that opinion.
Very well said sir
And for all of you people that are bring up Bill Clinton please don't, that guy is the biggest joke in American history, the whole reason our economy was so messed up during Bush's 1st 4 years was because he was cleaning up Clintons dealings with all the big IPO's, Clinton just did a real quick fix with the economy while he was president. Lets also remember that when Bill and Hillary were outed by Bush, they stole all the silverware and plates and even bed sheets, can you say jerkoff lol
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There is always room for improvement, especially in the area of responses to disasters in the crowded cities we live in today... and there should be a study for lessons learned - AFTER everyone living is at least rescued, and the bodies are buried.
I think its preposterous to blame soley the top political leader in the nation for the incredible death and property damage caused by the flooding that was triggered in below-sea-level NO by this hurricane.
I think its even worse to suggest that it was due to racism, or even intentional ... you can hear this drivel on the radio! Its pathetic politisization of an already tragic situation.
Good observations in your post, Clifra Jones!
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If the shoe fits, wear it.
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It's obvious that there is a very large schism between the mayor of NO and the governor. In live interviews on cnn he has been more than critical of the response from the state and lack of coordination with the feds. His statement about when Bush asked her to let the feds help and her reply that she needed 24 hours to think about it, is simply astounding.
One statement I can certainly agree with, and surprisingly it came from clinton, is that an analysis needs to be done over everything that happened or didn't happen in this situation. It needs to be done AFTER the crisis is over not during it. Since this has been declared the worst natural disaster in the history of the nation it is safe to assume that exact plans and preparations are not likely to be possible prior to the event. As the mayor of NO said an evacuation order has never before been given in his cities history. Thinking anyone, much less everyone, would get everything right in dealing with this situation is ludicrous.
It's time to just STFU about how somebody is to blame and just fix the damage and help the survivors. Very few of the folks who post on this bbs are, or were there and only one person that I can tell has any position in the actual response to the disaster in any official capacity. the rest are pretty much making a bunch of "noise" about in a situation that they have only second, third, fourth or even farther removed from the situation knowledge.
Just my opinion. Feel free to continue to "lord it over" and "arm chair quarterback" the folks who are actually doing something. about it.
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Bush did cut his vacation short. He was on his way back to Washington on Mon or Tues if I recall correctly.
By the way, this lunatic threatening to "punch" the president? Has she been arrested yet for making threats to harm the leader of our nation? Isnt that illegal?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Is this true? Saw this Sept 04.
Few discrepancies there.
Bush declared a state of emergency before the hurricane made landfall.
Did not do "nothing" from his Texas ranch but practically begged the mayor of N. O. to issue a mandatory evacuation of the city and the governor of Louisiana to let the feds take over.
After waiting 24 hours to respond. She said "no" and is my understanding didn't give approval until after 3 days after the levy broke.
Conventional wisdom is it will take up to 3 days for the feds to be able to respond in "any meaningful way" (exact quote I heard) from the time that permission is given.
so that alone puts us 6 days into this.
Interestingly enough part of N. O. evacuation plan is for the mayor to authorize the use of the school busses and other public forms of transportation to evacuate those who have no other modes of transpiration out. which the N. O. mayor did not do. even when he did get around to ordering an evacuation (after it was already too late)
Bush could not use the insurrection act because it was not an insurrection (looting does not an insurrection make) So By law he couldn't use that.
By law he couldn't federally take over without expressed consent from the state.
By law he cant use federal troops to do police work even once the feds do take over.
The vast bulk of the blame if there is any is on the government state of Louisiana and those that refused to leave when it was prudent to do so.
Blame on the fed level would have to go with the poor organization of the relief efforts. Putting Beurocrates in positions that may require immediate action (FEMA) is never a good idea.
Planning for an emergency situation was obviously poor with no clear cut chain of command or plan of action.
Kinda makes you wonder what these people have been doing since 9/11.
but in the end I think the bulk of the blame still has to go to the state level. Had they taken the necessary steps at the necessary times alot if not most of the tragedy could have been avoided.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Oh come on!
Attacking an idiotic Senator makes it all OK?
The President expressed surprise at the squalor in the Superdome THREE DAYS after the hurricane. Was he too busy clearing brush at the ranch?
There is no excuse for the poor response to this disaster.
FEMA failed, Homeland Security failed, Louisiana failed and New Orleans failed. Two of those 4 entities answer to President Bush. When is he gonna stop trying to spin failures into successes and actually do something?
Umm the latter two faitours (HS and FEMA)were in large part the direct result of faitours of the former two (Louisiana, N. O. )
Cant expect the top floor to stand if the bottom floors collapse
And you cant expect any origination at the federal level to be able to do what it isnt allowed to do until it is allowed to.
But. Once it was allowed I will agree the LEADERSHIP of H.S. and FEMA was pretty dismal. Or so it looks anyway.
Inasmuch as we arent there to see it first hand none can say.
Again. 90,000 square miles is alot of area to cover and try to bring relief efforts to. So Im not really surprised it would take some bit of time before anyone could see any real gaugeable results.
Its like spilling a cup of sugar on your floor and having even a dozen people trying to clean it up one grain at a time.
Eventually it gets picked up. but it takes a while before you even look like your getting anywhere
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well said drediock, a most sensible assesment, and it seems to be reasonably accurate.
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as of yesturday the Louisiana National Guard was still under STATE CONTROL.
It's all BUsh's fault. :rofl
yes MT you are soo right. Investigations while the bodies are still fresh is exactly what is needed. We don't need the releif effort in the city helping people we need them coming back to washington and taking time out to do interviews. Don't let them sleep that will only slow the process down. Most of them have been awake for three to five days strait, sleep might make them forget something.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Is this true? Saw this Sept 04.
Hurricane Floyd vs. Hurricane Katrina
Clinton in charge vs. Bush in charge
Chuck let's compare apples to apples for a second here:
Floyed was a Cat 2 hurricane at best that struck in North Carolina
Katrina was a Cat 5 that struck East of New Orleans in
(THE FLOOD DID MORE DAMAGE TO NO THAN THE HURRICANE)
The topography of the two areas are completly different.
Most people commenting about this have NEVER been to New Orleans. There's only 3 major ways to get there and all of them go over water. The one highway still intact flooded halfway to the city. Over said highways was hurricane damage as well.
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"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." –President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005
"What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) – this is working very well for them." –Former First Lady Barbara Bush, on the Hurricane flood evacuees in the Houston Astrodome, Sept. 5, 2005
"Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well." —FEMA Director Michael Brown, Sept. 1, 2005
"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." –President Bush, to FEMA director Michael Brown, while touring Hurricane-ravaged Mississippi, Sept. 2, 2005
"I have not heard a report of thousands of people in the convention center who don't have food and water." –Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, on NPR's "All Things Considered," Sept. 1, 2005
"Well, I think if you look at what actually happened, I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, 'New Orleans Dodged the Bullet.' Because if you recall, the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse." –Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, blaming media coverage for his failings, "Meet the Press," Sept. 4, 2005
"I believe the town where I used to come – from Houston, Texas, to enjoy myself, occasionally too much – will be that very same town, that it will be a better place to come to." –President George W. Bush, on the tarmac at the New Orleans airport, Sept. 2, 2005
"We just learned of the convention center – we being the federal government – today." –FEMA Director Michael Brown, to ABC's Ted Koppel, Sept. 1, 2005, to which Koppel responded " Don't you guys watch television?
hehe.. good job Brownie.
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If I have to choose between having klinton for pres and haveing a federal government who does nothing when I have a flood...
I will pick the one who does nothing.
If you don't like the way they are handling it... quit paying your taxes... No? vote to give em less?
How bout.... catch up on your insurance and learn to stop thinking the government is a solution to all your problems.
lazs
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If you rely on any governmental official city/school/county/parish/state/local/federal/UN/etc. to save your arse in an emergency you are going to either die or be dissapointed.
Wake up!
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I don't see how providing for the common defense has anything to do with hurricanes in any case.
lazs
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I think it might have been either that rapper Kanye or the "bad boy" Sean Penn who first articulated the "common defense" theory...
if it wasn't them, all I could suggest is that you'd have to visit the same progressive blogs that MT gets his matierial from in order to be able to see the connection.
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I visit no blogs, my material is mine, except for the list of quotes above. They came from yahoo.
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better go make sure your emergency kit is stocked up and make sure you have enough ammunition.....
unless you want government to take care of you after a disaster :aok
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Hmmm... this disaster highlights the failure of our nation's welfare system(s). We've created entire generations of dependent people, incapable of fending for themselves.
I suspect that some states are worse than others, hell... there might even be some worse than Louisiana.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." –President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005
"What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) – this is working very well for them." –Former First Lady Barbara Bush, on the Hurricane flood evacuees in the Houston Astrodome, Sept. 5, 2005
"Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well." —FEMA Director Michael Brown, Sept. 1, 2005
"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." –President Bush, to FEMA director Michael Brown, while touring Hurricane-ravaged Mississippi, Sept. 2, 2005
"I have not heard a report of thousands of people in the convention center who don't have food and water." –Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, on NPR's "All Things Considered," Sept. 1, 2005
"Well, I think if you look at what actually happened, I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, 'New Orleans Dodged the Bullet.' Because if you recall, the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse." –Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, blaming media coverage for his failings, "Meet the Press," Sept. 4, 2005
"I believe the town where I used to come – from Houston, Texas, to enjoy myself, occasionally too much – will be that very same town, that it will be a better place to come to." –President George W. Bush, on the tarmac at the New Orleans airport, Sept. 2, 2005
"We just learned of the convention center – we being the federal government – today." –FEMA Director Michael Brown, to ABC's Ted Koppel, Sept. 1, 2005, to which Koppel responded " Don't you guys watch television?
hehe.. good job Brownie.
so because of these quotes you want to call off the releif effort to bring these people back to washington and have hearings?
EDIT: I don't see you complaining about the local govt's work either. Were they stellar performers in this case or are they excempt from criticism because they are democrats?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Hmmm... this disaster highlights the failure of our nation's welfare system(s). We've created entire generations of dependent people, incapable of fending for themselves.
I suspect that some states are worse than others, hell... there might even be some worse than Louisiana.
flood the inner city of any large US city and you'd see the identical problems
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Inside the rotted core of every large american city is a 3rd world country.
Get out of Iraq NOW :D
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I don't understand..Why didn't the state ask for help asap?:confused:
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Originally posted by SirLoin
I don't understand..Why didn't the state ask for help asap?:confused:
long read, but worth it. it came down to lack of personal responsibility that apparently was not part of the mayor, nor the govenors upbringing.
Blame Amid the Tragedy
Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.
BY BOB WILLIAMS
Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT
As the devastation of Hurricane Katrina continues to shock and sadden the nation, the question on many lips is, Who is to blame for the inadequate response?
As a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, I can fully understand and empathize with the people and public officials over the loss of life and property.
Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.
The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.
The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.
In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.
A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.
The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored.
Mayor Nagin was responsible for giving the order for mandatory evacuation and supervising the actual evacuation: His Office of Emergency Preparedness (not the federal government) must coordinate with the state on elements of evacuation and assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas. Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.
The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.
The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.
Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.
The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.
In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.
State legislators and governors nationwide need to update their contingency plans and the operation procedures for state emergency centers. Hurricane Katrina had been forecast for days, but that will not always be the case with a disaster (think of terrorist attacks). It must be made clear that the governor and locally elected officials are in charge of the "first response."
I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.
The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans. The tragedy is not over, and real leadership in the state and local government are essential in the months to come. More importantly, the hurricane season is still upon us, and local and state officials must stay focused on the jobs for which they were elected--and not on the deadly game of passing the emergency buck.
Mr. Williams is president of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a free market public policy research organization in Olympia, Wash.
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I'm suprised to see such a reasoned article from the Times, but here it is:
John Tierney: The Magic Marker method
By John Tierney The New York Times
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 7, 2005
WASHINGTON It was the climax of President George W. Bush's video introduction at the Republican convention: the moment at Yankee Stadium during the 2001 World Series when he threw a pitch all the way to home plate. The video ended, and the conventioneers cheered as Bush strode onto a stage shaped like a pitcher's mound.
Well, live by the pitch, die by the pitch. When you campaign as the man on the mound, the great leader whose arm rescues Americans in their moment of need, they expect you to deal with a hurricane, too.
Bush made a lot of mistakes last week, but most of his critics are making a bigger one now by obsessing about what he said and did. We can learn more by listening to men like Jim Judkins, particularly when he explains the Magic Marker method of disaster preparedness.
Judkins is one of the officials in charge of evacuating the Hampton Roads region around Newport News, Virginia. These coastal communities, unlike New Orleans, are not below sea level, but they're much better prepared for a hurricane. Officials have plans to run school buses and borrow other buses to evacuate those without cars, and they keep registries of the people who need special help.
Instead of relying on a "Good Samaritan" policy - the fantasy in New Orleans that everyone would take care of the neighbors - the Virginia rescue workers go door to door. If people resist the plea to leave, Judkins told The Daily Press in Newport News, rescue workers give them Magic Markers and ask them to write their Social Security numbers on their body parts so they can be identified. "It's cold, but it's effective," Judkins explained.
That simple strategy could have persuaded hundreds of people to save their own lives in New Orleans. What the city needed most was coldly effective local leaders, not a president in Washington who could feel their pain. It's the same lesson America should have learned from Sept. 11 and other disasters, yet both liberals and conservatives keep ignoring it.
The liberals bewailing the insensitivity and racism of Republicans in Washington sound like a bad rerun of the 1960s, when urban riots were blamed on everyone but the rioters and the police. Yes, the White House did a terrible job of responding to Katrina, but Democratic leaders in New Orleans and Louisiana didn't even fulfill their basic duties.
In coastal Virginia - which, by the way, has a large black population and plenty of Republican politicians - Judkins and his colleagues assume that it's their job to evacuate people, maintain order and stockpile supplies to last for 72 hours, until federal help arrives. In New Orleans, the mayor seemed to assume all that was beyond his control, just like the mayors in the 1960s who let the riots occur.
They said their cities couldn't survive without help from Washington, which proceeded to shower inner cities with money and programs that did more damage than the riots. Cities didn't recover until some mayors, especially Republicans like New York's Rudy Giuliani, tried self-reliance.
Giuliani was called heartless and racist for cutting the welfare rolls and focusing on crime reduction, but black neighborhoods were the greatest beneficiaries of his policies. He was criticized for ignoring social services as he concentrated on reorganizing the Police and Fire Departments, but his cold effectiveness paid off and made New York a more livable place and kept it calm after the Sept. 11 attacks.
Yet Bush, with approval from conservatives who should have known better, reacted to Sept. 11 by centralizing disaster planning in Washington. He created the byzantine Homeland Security Department, with predictable results last week.
The Federal Emergency Management Agency, often criticized for ineptitude, became even less efficient after it was swallowed by a bureaucracy consumed with terrorism. The department has spent billions on new federal airport screeners - with no discernible public benefit - while giving short shrift to natural disasters.
The federal officials who had been laboring on a one-size-fits-all strategy were unprepared for the peculiarities of New Orleans, like the high percentage of people without cars. The local officials who knew about that problem didn't do anything about it - and then were furious when Bush didn't solve it for them. Why didn't the man on the mound come through for them?
It's a fair question as they go door to door looking for bodies. But so is this: Why didn't they go door to door before the hurricane with Magic Markers?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
so because of these quotes you want to call off the releif effort to bring these people back to washington and have hearings?
EDIT: I don't see you complaining about the local govt's work either. Were they stellar performers in this case or are they excempt from criticism because they are democrats?
When did I say call off the relief effort? If you think sending Mr. Brown back to Washington will hamper the relief effort I have some nice waterfront property on Lake Muroc to sell you.
If you read my posts I did mention New Orleans and Louisiana. I just like to shine the spotlight where it will make the biggest cockroaches run..... politically speaking.
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thanks for the artical edbert. Thats something I can agree with without selling my soul to the highest paying lobbyist.
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so MT... are you starting to see that tax money in the hands of government is not the best way to solve problems?
lazs
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I had an interesting interview in the late 1990s. I was writing an article on the use of geographical information systems (GIS) to aid in disaster relief. I came across a paper on the Internet and decided to contact the FEMA worker bee directly instead of going through the often laborious official channels.
I get the guy on the phone, and he spends the next 15 minutes telling me how I should write an expose on the agency. The political hack that is invariably injected to head the organization every 4 to 8 years or so to pad a resume or future eulogy typically wants to do something “important,” so they create special programs with big sounding names and a forest full of paper that they try to push though during their tenure, usually at the cost of real work, time and money. This guy was a good man, dedicate to his mission but totally fed up and frustrated. I had to eventually explain that I couldn’t really write that expose. But, it helped clarify my opinion on Washington agencies, and is one example of how the whole system works.
The recent results from Katrina are not surprising federally, nor are they surprising at the state or local level either -- different bureaucracy but more of the same. It is not a partisan issue, but another example of how our current political process is regularly failing the American people. The main problem, is that it is so easy to distract the people. Both parties do it. As long as you think in terms of “Conservative” or “Liberal” “Republican” or “Democrat” they accomplish their goals and we lose. As long as you are busy hating the other guy, you fail to notice how badly your “good buddies” are doing their fair share to screw you, or how much they care about themselves and how little they care about your specific needs. IMO the white middle class is as poorly served by the Republicans as the poor and minorities are by the Democrats. Step back, throw partisanship aside, and start looking at mechanism as a whole. Here’s a hint - politics IS us vs. them, but it has nothing to do with Democrats and Republicans :)
Soapbox rant off.
Charon
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Nice post Charon.
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Originally posted by Charon
Here’s a hint - politics IS us vs. them, but it has nothing to do with Democrats and Republicans :)
Soapbox rant off.
Charon
Good sentence. Whats with the cryptic ’? Did you steal this off a website?
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charon... I agree completely except... I would add that both are moving toward more socialism and more power.... it is just that while the republicans are strolling towards it... the democrats are at a flat out sprint towards it.
The only thing your tax dollars buy is more power for those in power. If they ever do anything to help anyone it is entirely with making their power base stronger in mind.
I believe that the few idealistic politicians who make it to power are soon discouraged and step into line with the beuorocrats and socialists.
lazs
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I would add that both are moving toward more socialism and more power.... it is just that while the republicans are strolling towards it... the democrats are at a flat out sprint towards it.
I agree.
Charon
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Charon, I shake my fist at thee! From hell's door I spit at thee!
How dare you be so level headed at a time when what is clearly called for is more rhetoric and soundbites!
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Well based on your first post and your little rant about quotes it looks like you completly excuse the state and city. Then there's this little gem:
From What? Isn't one of the main reasons for a Federal government to provide a means to protect the people? Shouldn't we expect at least competent response from our Federal govt. in times of crisis? Is the Department of Homeland Security just there to respond to terrorist attacks?
We were promised in the aftermath of 9-11 that our Govt' would improve the command and control, communications and disaster response mechanisms so that the "common defense" would be provided for in a fashion that was better than before. It didn't happen.
The investigation needs to start NOW, while the horror is still fresh and the bodies are still being collected.
an investigation while during the current effort would hamper that effort no ifs ands or buts about it. you'd be pulling rescuers off the line that have been working without sleep for days on end. It wouldn't be the directers but the staff as well. Is this really what you want or are you back pedling from this position as well.
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How dare you be so level headed at a time when what is clearly called for is more rhetoric and soundbites!
I wish I was levelheaded now. You just keep waiting for one of these events to cause the lightbulb to go off.
People are dying (but not enough to really impact most) billions are pissing away in the wind (but not enough for a 1929) -- but the day is coming when we won't be able to ignore this **** anymore. We've let it run on autopilot for 20 years, just like we did between 1945 and Tet. Maybe when the housing bubble goes the way of the tech bubble. Too bad it will have to come to that.
Charon
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(http://tinypic.com/dc3qlx)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v72/SisterTanya/demoseal1.jpg)
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Bravo Charon,
bravo
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If you bleeding hearts have never worked in a disaster area you can't possibly imagine how difficult it is to move convoys of heavy equipment through it. It's nothing like taking a Sunday drive into the country for a picnic.
Relief convoys heading to New Orleans had to move through two states devasted by a category 4 hurricane. Not only were many of the highways covered with debris that had to be cleared, but all the power was out, making it almost impossible to refuel the relief vehicles. The convoys had to bring every drop of fuel they needed with them.
For several days after the hurricane passed the only access to many communities along the coast was by helicopter.
Under those circumstances, I'd say two or three days to make the journey, in force, would be just about right.
I wonder what effect the complaining and tirades by Nagin and Blanco had on the overall relief efforts. Considering the extent of the disaster, FEMA had probably planned a broad-based effort to reach as many of the victims in southern Louisiana and Mississippi as possible. I suspect that Nagin's complaints and "racist" rant changed all that, guaranteeing that the feds HAD to make a maximum effort to reach NO as rapidly as possible...to the detriment of the victims in southern Mississippi.
You wouldn't know it by listening to the news media, but Mississippi was hit harder than Louisiana. Wonder what southern Mississippian's think about Nagin's asinine rant?
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Yup what shukins said. Only three main highways go into NO. ALL of them go over water, two of them were wiped out. The third goes under 20 feet of water halfway through the city.
Considering they were air evacing people as soon as the winds were under 45kts....
The one thing I heard was they could have had more helicopters in but the red tape took a while. It took one USAF reserve unit 36 hours to get PERMISSION to fly into the area.
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From what I saw of Southern Mississippi in/around Gulfport, I think a lot of Mississippians were thinking "God helps them that help themselves" or something to that effect.
They were cleaning up and making progress before anyone got to them.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yup what shukins said. Only three main highways go into NO. ALL of them go over water, two of them were wiped out. The third goes under 20 feet of water halfway through the city.
The argument against your point (which I do not hold, merely playing devil's advocate) was that news reporters and reporterettes were all arriving in force, and if Geraldo could get there so could supplies.
I'll leave the floating fastball over the plate for you.
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This is not a failure of logistics. It is a failure of LEADERSHIP. Bush should have been on the ground the next day, not on vacation and not flying to San Diego. Help got there too slowly, and maybe for good reason. But if Joe Reporter can get there so can Marine One.
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geeze mt... first you compliment charon on not being a soundbite robot and then you let your wife tell you what to post in the very next post "you" make.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
geeze mt... first you compliment charon on not being a soundbite robot and then you let your wife tell you what to post in the very next post "you" make.
lazs
Sherlock Lazs ^
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Originally posted by Edbert
The argument against your point (which I do not hold, merely playing devil's advocate) was that news reporters and reporterettes were all arriving in force, and if Geraldo could get there so could supplies.
I'll leave the floating fastball over the plate for you.
most of the reporters were allready in New Orleans. If they weren't their equipment was.
And it's alot bigger deal moving a convoy of supplies and heavy equipment over hurrican hit highway than it is a couple of reporters in vans
This is not a failure of logistics. It is a failure of LEADERSHIP. Bush should have been on the ground the next day, not on vacation and not flying to San Diego. Help got there too slowly, and maybe for good reason. But if Joe Reporter can get there so can Marine One.
MT,
Bush's exact words were. "I don't want my arrival to any way interfere with releif efforts currently underway"
Makes perfect sense to me. Secret service has to stop people from what they are doing to screen them. Air space around AF one and Marine one has to be cleared.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
This is not a failure of logistics. It is a failure of LEADERSHIP. Bush should have been on the ground the next day, not on vacation and not flying to San Diego. Help got there too slowly, and maybe for good reason. But if Joe Reporter can get there so can Marine One.
Interesting point of view. When I saw Bush on the ground there touring the site and hugging victims I thought his mere presence there was a detrimental thing, he was wasting resources (fuel, and security mainly) that could have been better spent elsewhere. I also thought it was a shamelss photo-op, one of those "I feel your pain" things that does nobody any good.
I guess you wanted more of that, goes to show you cannot make everyone happy.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
most of the reporters were allready in New Orleans. If they weren't their equipment was.
You hit a double, the home-run would have been to point out that the news agencies could get there becuase they are relatively small private interests which are self-motivated instead of a byzantine governmental agency or conglomerations of various beurocracies. The goverment cannot do ANYTHING well, never has and never will, if you rely on them to save you you are gonna die.
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Originally posted by Edbert
Interesting point of view. When I saw Bush on the ground there touring the site and hugging victims I thought his mere presence there was a detrimental thing, he was wasting resources (fuel, and security mainly) that could have been better spent elsewhere. I also thought it was a shamelss photo-op, one of those "I feel your pain" things that does nobody any good.
I guess you wanted more of that, goes to show you cannot make everyone happy.
Getting there 5 days late is a shameless photo op and probably spin control. Getting there right away to tell the people they haven't been abandonded is leadership.
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(http://www.timewarptoys.com/fickle.jpg)
the ffof is pointing at the dem leadership of NO & LA but keep spinning it to the feds, some will believe
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Getting there 5 days late is a shameless photo op and probably spin control. Getting there right away to tell the people they haven't been abandonded is leadership.
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wouldn't have changed a single fact on the ground and you "still" would have found "something" to "complain" about.
face it, bush is simply doing what bush does and if the liberal socialist democrats aren't careful about who they select to take the leadership role in the next election they will get themsevles another bush elected to the presidency.
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Getting there 5 days late is a shameless photo op and probably spin control. Getting there right away to tell the people they haven't been abandonded is leadership. MT
MT, are you sure that you don't visit the progressive blogs? I admit that I read them occasionally, and I'm conservative. Your rhetoric sounds supiciously like the kind of thing you read on those whaco sites.
I infer from your comment that you feel that the President showing up in person immediately after the hurricane is more important than local and state gov't showing leadership by evacuating people in the city and actually saving thousands of lives? It was their statutory responsibility! Yet you go on about Bush "not getting there" right away? Why?
I can only conclude that you spout the progressive talking points...
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Originally posted by Gunthr
MT, are you sure that you don't visit the progressive blogs? I admit that I read them occasionally, and I'm conservative. Your rhetoric sounds supiciously like the kind of thing you read on those whaco sites.
I infer from your comment that you feel that the President showing up in person immediately after the hurricane is more important than local and state gov't showing leadership by evacuating people in the city and actually saving thousands of lives? It was their statutory responsibility! Yet you go on about Bush "not getting there" right away? Why?
I can only conclude that you spout the progressive talking points...
I promise I don't visit any blogs.
Why would you assume that I think one thing is more important than the other? They are not mutually exclusive. I think Bush failed in terms of his leadership in a crisis. I think Bush's appointees in FEMA and Homeland Security failed in the same way. What point is made by saying "ya but what about these guys"?
You ever get out of a speeding ticket by pointing out other speeders? Me either.
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The President does not have primary responsibility for anything related to a natural disaster in a state.
Primary responsibility lies with the local, state, and then the federal government officials (in that order). The Federal government has no rights, at all, to interfere with the state, unless the state formally requests help.
In a nutshell, that is how it all works. Pinning the blame for whatever failure there was on the President, is akin to blaming the guy who made the match, who sold it to the store, who sold it to the arsonist, who started the fire.
If you are so desparate to find blame, then at least blame the source of the failures in leadership, if any.
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Why would you assume that I think one thing is more important than the other? MT
Getting there 5 days late is a shameless photo op and probably spin control. Getting there right away to tell the people they haven't been abandonded is leadership.
prima fascie evidence that you believe the President not visiting NO right away is more important is the fact that you carp on the President for not visiting immediately and omit any mention of the irresponsibility of local and state government's lack of leadership which directly caused the deaths of thousands. :) If you've acknowledged this on this BB, I apologise. If you haven't, I think I've made my point.
It appears to me that the reason you omit any mention of the irresponsibility and lack of leadership exhibited by the state and local gov't, is that it doesn't fit your progressive talking points.
BTW - FEMA has never been a first responder to disasters that I'm aware of. I've been involved in several hurricanes in Florida, including Andrew, and its the city, county and state agencies that are first responders. FEMA always shows up days later, taking $ claims, providing monies, and generally supporting activities of local government. All this will come out in the review of the Katrina response.
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Post Katrina Era? (http://www.alternet.org/story/25099/)
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I agree with the author that FEMA should not have been demoted from Cabinet level and gotten buried in Homeland Security.
But I note that the author attributes this to a lack of empathy or concern by Republicans. Plenty of Democrats voted for this demotion, including Hillary Cllinton.
Bush has already gone on record as saying that FEMA will again become a Cabinet level agency.
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Originally posted by Iceman24
And for all of you people that are bring up Bill Clinton please don't, that guy is the biggest joke in American history, the whole reason our economy was so messed up during Bush's 1st 4 years was because he was cleaning up Clintons dealings with all the big IPO's, Clinton just did a real quick fix with the economy while he was president. Lets also remember that when Bill and Hillary were outed by Bush, they stole all the silverware and plates and even bed sheets, can you say jerkoff lol
Please actually look up the facts before you post. Rightwing lies and talking points are not facts.
Please post where the silverware and plates story is verified? I ask you to do this already knowing that it isnt true.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
When did I say call off the relief effort? If you think sending Mr. Brown back to Washington will hamper the relief effort I have some nice waterfront property on Lake Muroc to sell you.
If you read my posts I did mention New Orleans and Louisiana. I just like to shine the spotlight where it will make the biggest cockroaches run..... politically speaking.
MT dont forget that the right pompom boys dont want any accountability unless its a Dem. Dont ever ask questions and certainly dont even suggest that this admin is responsible for anything.
Now is the time to ask questions.
But I smell Medals of Freedom for all...........
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina
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Well, apparently there are those who simply do not care about how things really work and are simply happy to live in ignorance.
This thread has now become nothing more than an insult to those who do know how things work, and could care less about political bigotry being forced upon them.
If you want to spew political bigotry, find another board to do so. I am sure there are plenty of people out there who would bite on this, hook, line, and sucker.