Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on September 09, 2005, 08:03:16 AM
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for us gun culture and libertarian leaning guys...
"Unintended Consequences" by John Ross
It is an extremely long book at like 800 pages and a work of fiction.. But.. I never lost so many nights sleep over a book. A real page turner.. couldn't put it down..
The author has two degrees and is a personal firearms instructor who shoots 20,000 rounds a year and it shows... I have never read any book ever that got the details of firearms so right.. in fact.. it went way beyond what I knew about guns.
He must be a Hot Rodder two because he got the parts about cars dead tits on and... so far as I can tell... he got all the airplane stuff right too.
Beyond that... it is a very excieting and thought provolking book. I don't believe I have ever heard anyone put into print the way us gun culture guys think about our firearms and firearms rights so well and why...
I highly recomend this book and can't imagine anyone not being in awe of it.
Oh... and it has a happy ending too... unless you are a socialist or ninja or are afraid of guns.
lazs
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can't believe no one has read this book. You won't find it at garage sales like klinton ones for 50 cents tho.
lazs
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Keep hearing about it ...........
guess I better get a copy n read it.
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great book... only problem is that it weighs a ton and that it will cause you to go to work all red eyed from lack of sleep if you read at night in bed like I do.
lazs
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Got a link for us inturdnet challenged?
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Doh! Nevermind. Found it.
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Gun owners killing the "uppity" government agents of the ATF. Yeah great read :rolleyes:
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Sounds pretty good to me.
"After the repeal of Prohibition, Congress passes an obscure federal gun law, written to promote massive noncompliance and thus give idled Prohibition agents something to do. Three decades later, a boy born into a well-to-do family becomes immersed in shooting sports, and firearms become his lifelong passion. An expert with rifle and pistol who gives free personal protection classes to women, Henry Bowman is just one of the millions of people who comprise America's "gun culture."
Because of his upbringing, Henry is sensitized to government's capacity to abuse its power. As years pass, Henry watches continued federal assaults on the gun culture with growing alarm. Concurrently, Henry's adult life intersects with the lives of two very different people: Cindy, a woman whose instincts for self-preservation help her survive virtual slavery inside an organized crime syndicate, and Ray, a lawyer who left the U.S. in 1963 and returns thirty years later.
Now near middle age, Henry is alone at a friend's house one night. He uses his skills to thwart an armed break-in only to discover that the assault was not a burglary but a raid. Henry's victims are not street criminals but federal agents, and with mounting horror he listens to the captive survivors describe the operation they were carrying out.
With the Ruby Ridge killings and the Waco massacre burned into his memory, Henry knows he has just given himself a death sentence. He faces the law enforcement assets of the entire U.S. Government as the country's future hangs in the balance.
Despite the odds, Henry has no intention of becoming a martyr. Henry Bowman is a resourceful man with money, intelligence, and motivation, and he has history on his side."
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I think raider would rather the ninjas kill uppity citizens so long as he doesn't have to hear about it.
lazs
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Waco and Ruby Ridge are 2 mistakes that shouldn't have happened but they did. In the 230 years (almost) that our country has been around that is not too shabby. I am much more concerned about wacko's like McViegh who thought he was a patriot than "ninja's" just coming in and shooting me.
Hey any of you constitution quoting gun guys form your militia and go help protect N.O from the looters? lmao:rolleyes:
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Im simply AMAZED MP8 has not LOCKED this thread.....
Not that it deserves being locked, it doesn't (thats my point).
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Originally posted by Raider179
Waco and Ruby Ridge are 2 mistakes that shouldn't have happened but they did. In the 230 years (almost) that our country has been around that is not too shabby. I am much more concerned about wacko's like McViegh who thought he was a patriot than "ninja's" just coming in and shooting me.
Hey any of you constitution quoting gun guys form your militia and go help protect N.O from the looters? lmao:rolleyes:
Vrs. all the mistakes that the current administration that NEED to be harped on and ruined our 230 year record. GJ picking and choosing your battles. BTW plenty of law abiding Gun owners helped out in N.O either protecting themselves or other people.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Vrs. all the mistakes that the current administration that NEED to be harped on and ruined our 230 year record. GJ picking and choosing your battles. BTW plenty of law abiding Gun owners helped out in N.O either protecting themselves or other people.
So I guess that is a NO I didn't go. lmao
Plenty of gun owners (notice I didn't put in law-abiding) also shot at helicopters and rescue workers down there too. Oh but I see you put in the qualifier "law-abiding". That's just it, There are gun owners who aren't law-abiding and thats the problem.
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Originally posted by Raider179
So I guess that is a NO I didn't go. lmao
Plenty of gun owners (notice I didn't put in law-abiding) also shot at helicopters and rescue workers down there too. Oh but I see you put in the qualifier "law-abiding". That's just it, There are gun owners who aren't law-abiding and thats the problem.
and you have proof of this? Oh what am I saying I'm sure you witnessed this first hand.
As far as me going there. I asked my command if we were sending a group there and the answer was no. I can't go their because I'm restricted by the federal govt.
DId you go and help out in any way shape or form. I know I did. We are doing a fund raising car wash on monday and have allready collected $800.00. I headed up the planning committee for this.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think raider would rather the ninjas kill uppity citizens so long as he doesn't have to hear about it.
lazs
I wonder how these guys ever get the sand out of their ears after burying their head in it for so long.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
I wonder how these guys ever get the sand out of their ears after burying their head in it for so long.
Perhaps you or Lasz could point out more than just Waco or Ruby Ridge as reasons to be scared of "Ninjas"??? That is just not gonna make me as paranoid as you are. Waco was a group of Extremists that were armed to the teeth and forcibly resisted police and fbi/atf. There is no defense for what happened at Ruby Ridge. So basically you have 1 event that makes you paranoid. Get over it. Like I said you are better off with a lawyer than a gun if you gonna fight the government.
Do any of you paranoid extremists actually know any federal agents? I am guessing not, being as your knowledge of them seems to rest only with Waco/ruby ridge. In both of those incidents the people involved killed Federal Agents. That tends to bring the might of the Government down on you. Don't be so paranoid about your precious guns. They arent going anywhere and they are not what holds America together.
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mcveigh considered the book to be superior to the turner diaries. if he had been exposed to it earlier, it would of transformed him into a terrorist the people could rally behind.
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Is this an accurate review of the book?
John Ross has written two novels here. The first several hundred pages are very serviceable historical fiction: entertaining, informative, and quite readable. Then, the setting changes to the "present day", and the work gradually unmasks an implicitly racialist POV, rapidly devolving into a "Turner Diaries"-style orgy of cleansing violence.
In the first half of the book, we meet the protagonist's father, an eminently likeable and supremely competent Naval Aviator during the Second World War. We flash forward and watch his son, Henry Bowman, grow up with a love of aviation and marksmanship. Along the way, various vignettes serve to both illuminate key historical events and introduce the supporting cast of characters. There's sometimes an overdose of foreshadowing, but by and large, it's an enjoyable and rewarding read.
Then, the author springs his trap. The wary reader saw the warning signs early in the book: the omniscient narrator earnestly highlighting, without a trace of irony, that Randy Weaver was not a White Supremacist, but merely someone who, "like many", had "no great affection for Blacks, Jews, or big government"; the breezily rosy depiction of Rhodesian "democracy", where only landowners could vote. But now, in the latter half of the book, subtlety is no longer the order of the day, and the message is no longer veiled. Having lured the reader this far, the author slams the doors shut and drops in the gas pellets.
Now, finally, the author feels free to use the term "Jewish" as a near-complete physical description for a character, as in "[he is]talking to the bald Jewish guy." The implicit prejudice just keeps getting worse, like listening to David Duke slowly get drunk. The novel's most carefully drawn Black character is a hastily sketched minstrel-show parody, an overweight female BATF agent who -- unlike every other character in the book -- speaks her lines in misspelled words connoting a ghetto dialect; her name is jarringly played for laughs, as the punch line after her summary execution: Gonnorhea Gaily Jackson.
Adding insult to injury, a parade of tin-foil hat conspiracy theories are portrayed as fact: Oswald was framed, the new 20-dollar-bills are designed to be detected by magnetometers, and the Jews pull secret levers of power in Washington. As the Maraschino cherry on top of this grotesque vanilla cream confection, the book concludes with the graphic depiction of the "good guys" murdering a former government official who bears striking -- but undoubtedly coincidental -- similarities to Janet Reno.
At the end of this book, you will feel used and dirty.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Waco was a group of Extremists that were armed to the teeth and forcibly resisted police and fbi/atf.
ATF was interested in one man at Waco. It was known that he made a trip to the lumber yard every week on the same day and pretty much at the same time. They could have taken him down there with no hassle.
What they did was make a storm trooper type raid to make headlines and to gain public attention. They assumed it was going to be a cake walk. They got their butts handed to them in a basket.
Then came the stand off. They got their public attention, but in the wrong way.
Do any of you paranoid extremists actually know any federal agents? I am guessing no
:D I like that.
Guessing seems to be your MO.
I`m not a paranoid extremist, but a very cautious and nonnaive when it comes to rights being stomped on or abused or any attempt to be taken away. I will answer your question anyway. As a matter of fact I know quite a few Federal agents. One used to play AW with us. I spoke to him on the phone not too long ago.
Another I did quite a bit of work for. I also know his son who is FBI.
A swing and a miss. Nothing new there.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
:D I like that.
Guessing seems to be your MO.
I`m not a paranoid extremist, but a very cautious and nonnaive when it comes to rights being stomped on or abused or any attempt to be taken away. I will answer your question anyway. As a matter of fact I know quite a few Federal agents. One used to play AW with us. I spoke to him on the phone not too long ago.
Another I did quite a bit of work for. I also know his son who is FBI.
A swing and a miss. Nothing new there.
Do those Feds you know make you think they are "ninja's" as they have been made out to seem here or regular people just doing their job the best they can? The ones I know give me faith and trust in the government not the distrust that a lot on this board seem to have.
You can't let 2 mistakes by a few individuals snowball into complete distrust in the government. That is paranoia and is exactly what this book plays off in order to be a seller.
Are we susposed to keep an eye on the government, of course we are, But that is quite distant from the utter distrust that is thrown around here.
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Originally posted by Suave
Is this an accurate review of the book?
John Ross' "Unintended Consequences," which tells the story of a hunter who, enraged by government atrocities against members of America's gun culture, assembles a team of heroic, patriotic killers who murder government agents individually. "McVeigh considered 'Unintended Consequences' a much more compelling story than 'The Turner Diaries,'" the authors note, saying that McVeigh might have mounted a sniper campaign rather than a bombing mission if he had read Ross' book first. They quote him as saying "It might have changed my whole plan of operation if I'd read that one first.
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Originally posted by Raider179
You can't let 2 mistakes by a few individuals snowball into complete distrust in the government.
Stored in the quiver for the next "How screwed up is the N.O. relief effort" thread.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Do those Feds you know make you think they are "ninja's" as they have been made out to seem here or regular people just doing their job the best they can?
The point you are missing here is it is not the individual agent. When the heads of these agencies manipulate , along with other agencies what actions are to be taken and how they are carried out, then there can be probelms if there are other motives and if they have Bozos for decision making.
When the orders are given for something like this then the individual agents have the choice of following those orders or walking away. Most have families to support like the rest of us.
In the case of Waco, if the individual agents had been made aware that they had been sold out beforehand, then I`m sure that they would not have walked into a slaughter willingly, but they were not informed.
You can't let 2 mistakes by a few individuals snowball into complete distrust in the government.
There have been way more than two incidents. You are the one coming up with that theory. There have been many.
I know a guy who now runs a very successfull bike shop.
He was in bed with his girlfriend late one night when he heard his front door being broken into. he had a .45 in a bedstand and and got it out as quickly as possible. In the darkness all he could see by that time was that multiple men were entering his bedroom. He was shot numerous times. He returned fire killing one and wounding a couple more.
It was not a forced entry house robbery. It was Feds. They were conducting a raid. A raid in which they had just been sent to the wrong address. The warrant was not on his residence. There was no verbal warning upon entry whatsoever. They had been told to take the occupants down swiftly as possible.
He spent years in recovery and rehabilitation.
That`s just one instance bud.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
The point you are missing here is it is not the individual agent. When the heads of these agencies manipulate , along with other agencies what actions are to be taken and how they are carried out, then there can be probelms if there are other motives and if they have Bozos for decision making.
When the orders are given for something like this then the individual agents have the choice of following those orders or walking away. Most have families to support like the rest of us.
In the case of Waco, if the individual agents had been made aware that they had been sold out beforehand, then I`m sure that they would not have walked into a slaughter willingly, but they were not informed.
There have been way more than two incidents. You are the one coming up with that theory. There have been many.
I know a guy who now runs a very successfull bike shop.
He was in bed with his girlfriend late one night when he heard his front door being broken into. he had a .45 in a bedstand and and got it out as quickly as possible. In the darkness all he could see by that time was that multiple men were entering his bedroom. He was shot numerous times. He returned fire killing one and wounding a couple more.
It was not a forced entry house robbery. It was Feds. They were conducting a raid. A raid in which they had just been sent to the wrong address. The warrant was not on his residence. There was no verbal warning upon entry whatsoever. They had been told to take the occupants down swiftly as possible.
He spent years in recovery and rehabilitation.
That`s just one instance bud.
So was that a yes or a no?
So your friend "returned" fire? Meaning he didnt shoot first? Your telling me they executed a no-knock warrant on his house, ran in his bedroom and just shot him? Or did he fire at the men coming into his room and then got shot? Or did they shoot him because he had the gun?
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Originally posted by Jackal1
It was Feds. They were conducting a raid. A raid in which they had just been sent to the wrong address. The warrant was not on his residence. There was no verbal warning upon entry whatsoever. They had been told to take the occupants down swiftly as possible.
A raid in which they had just been sent to the wrong address.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Stored in the quiver for the next "How screwed up is the N.O. relief effort" thread.
that's what I'm thinking.
Raider on waco......it was just a screw up
Raider on Iraq.........bush is teh ev1L
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Originally posted by Raider179
So your friend "returned" fire? Meaning he didnt shoot first? Your telling me they executed a no-knock warrant on his house, ran in his bedroom and just shot him? Or did he fire at the men coming into his room and then got shot? Or did they shoot him because he had the gun?
Try rereading it again and see if you can`t comprehend it this time. MmmmmK?
I love those that jump up to staunchly support their right to not support their rights. :)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
that's what I'm thinking.
Raider on waco......it was just a screw up
Raider on Iraq.........bush is teh ev1L
I put Waco on the shoulder of David Koresh and the parents who followed him.
I think we don't have enough troops in Iraq and yes I do blame bush for not upping troop level to make that country secure. Not gonna even get into all the other bs about how we got there in the first place.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Try rereading it again and see if you can`t comprehend it this time. MmmmmK?
I love those that jump up to staunchly support their right to not support their rights. :)
I did and it sounds like a tragedy if that is the way it unfolded. It wasnt however, a deliberate attempt by the "ninja's" to take away American Rights. Mmmk?
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Originally posted by Raider179
I did and it sounds like a tragedy if that is the way it unfolded. It wasnt however, a deliberate attempt by the "ninja's" to take away American Rights. Mmmk?
What it was is a totaly bungled from the start, Op on the part of those in charge.
One that violated his rights because someone was too busy trying to showboat and not paying attention to little, small, unimportant details such as getting the friggen address right.
I believe that if I was in charge of such an operation that them little pesky details such as address would be gone over and over, verified and reverified.
Federal agencies have to have a certain amount of power, but it can never be let to reach the state of absolute power. If it was left to attain that status, then discussion of rights would be a mute point since there would be none.
The power and how things are operated and carried out has to be closely monitored by the very ones it serves, being us the U.S. citizen.
If you sit back on your haunchs and do not take part in the process of monitoring and keeping things in hand then you are just not doing your part as a U.S. citizen.
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actually there are at least a dozen or more examples of atf abuses. Why do they wear ninja outfits and masks? who are they hiding their faces from? they aren't making raids on gangs or drug lords... they are raiding ordinary citizens.
now... suave... the review does have a few truthful parts to it but is heavily vitroholic. for instance... the author points out (rightly) that weaver was not a white supremist but a white seperatist... a huge difference... he shunned the white power group that lived near him. In the book I did not see one thing that was biggoted. Many jews were portrayed as heroic and sympathetic characters.
Int he book... many examples of government abuse are given... I could find no real fault with any of em. In waco for instance... he claims that helicopters fired m60's into the building and agents of the government machine gunned men women and children who were trying to escape... the academy award nominated documentary "rules of engagement" shows this to be at least probably true.
ATF has torn people houses and lives to pieces for years. Do you think that a person should get 5 years in prison for owning fender washers or a few dollars worth of metal?
if you want to read reviews..
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1888118040/qid=1126449532/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-2032441-9246530?v=glance&s=books
there is the amazon site for the book and the reviews by people who have actually read it.
I don't really expect people like raider to read it because they have too much invested in the opinion they have cultivated allready.
It is a well written book...
as for knowing atf people.... I know only two. They are robots sad to say. One is a son of a friend and is a very strange guy. The point is that hardly anyone knows these ninjas... they do not show themselves unless they are wearing masks. Why is that? They seem frieghtened of the very people they are claiming to protect... protect from what? If their cause was just and they wouldn't need to wear masks... the gun culture people are not gangs or huge illegal money makers... they are hobbiests harming no one.
Oh... at waco... only one agent was killed by a davidian... the rest all were shot by their buddies with "cop killer" bullets in the confusion. Also... the children recovered were said to be the most intellegent, well cared for and healthy kdds the head of Texas Child services had ever seen. No illegal weapons were found at the "compound" (church).
raider... if you want to read about ninja abuses the book has plenty... or go to the jews for the presevation of firearms site...
or... just bury your head in the sand.
lazs
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and suave... I guess the way to really answer you about the review is... read the book and find an incident of biggotry that you think the author condones or espouses... I couldn't. I think I have the ability to spot biggotry at least as well as anyone here and a lot better than the liberals here who seem to be biggots themselves.
I found none... if the reviewer got that part so wrong... you can imagine how tainted the other parts are of his review... read the amazon reviews... race never get's mentioned because it is a non issue in the book.
BTW... to be fair... where did you get the review you posted?
lazs
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Hmmm...........
Been allot more then 2 incidents.
Only been 2 incidents that got allot of coverage in the MAJOR media. There have been many others, but the major media did not, or were told not to, cover the incidents. Why? perhaps the media did not consider it worth coverage?
For instance I see many reports of New Orleans law abiding citizen, I'm refering to the one that DIDN'T shoot at helos, being disarmed.
I'm refering to the ones that called for the law got no response, because the police had left, some had even quit, so they decided to defend themselves, their families and their property. Citizens that were camly and quietily defending their homes. And were NOT out hunting looters, or looting. Also the private security guards hired by the rich are NOT being disarmed. But I haven't seen the MAJOR media say much of anything about it.
If you surf the net and look specifically for certain things you will find them.
I don't trust every report I see. I try and look elsewhere for more info.
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Like I said you are better off with a lawyer than a gun if you gonna fight the government.
Quoted for mistruth.
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but but.... no one is comeing after our guns?
wrag.. read the book. Tell us what you think. I get a little weary of raider and his ilks instant uninformed and predictable responses... I mean... they are/were funny but now it is like reading the same ayn rand novel's villian over and over.
lazs
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I'd love to buy the book, but I'm going to try the local Barnes and Noble first.
Though in a huge college town, it'll be a miracle if it's there.
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It won't be there but just for fun you should ask em to get it for you.
lazs
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I think you'd find this BN funny Lazs. The history section is only one stack wide.
There is only one hunting magazine in the Magazine Racks. And the guy who's holding up the WhiteTail's rack looks sorry.
No firearms magazines, though they do sell Shotgun News.
Though I do have to admit, they have a Bartending Section. Not a bunch of books in cooking together about bartending. I mean they have a Bartending Stack. I guess that's what you get for living in a college town.
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I live next to the peoples republic of Davis...
It is weird to go there.... everyone seems so serious and angry and.... they seem to be watching you.... ever ready to dissaprove. Looking for you to violate some law or another... I actually think that if I lit a cig up 19' from a building (I don't smoke) there would be twenty people all playing smoke police and...
It would be the highlight of their day... It is an Ayn Rand novel come to life.
lazs
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Bet you won't find any of these there either............
http://www.javelinpress.com/
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Originally posted by lazs2
actually there are at least a dozen or more examples of atf abuses. Why do they wear ninja outfits and masks? who are they hiding their faces from? they aren't making raids on gangs or drug lords... they are raiding ordinary citizens.
now... suave... the review does have a few truthful parts to it but is heavily vitroholic. for instance... the author points out (rightly) that weaver was not a white supremist but a white seperatist... a huge difference... he shunned the white power group that lived near him. In the book I did not see one thing that was biggoted. Many jews were portrayed as heroic and sympathetic characters.
Int he book... many examples of government abuse are given... I could find no real fault with any of em. In waco for instance... he claims that helicopters fired m60's into the building and agents of the government machine gunned men women and children who were trying to escape... the academy award nominated documentary "rules of engagement" shows this to be at least probably true.
ATF has torn people houses and lives to pieces for years. Do you think that a person should get 5 years in prison for owning fender washers or a few dollars worth of metal?
if you want to read reviews..
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1888118040/qid=1126449532/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-2032441-9246530?v=glance&s=books
there is the amazon site for the book and the reviews by people who have actually read it.
I don't really expect people like raider to read it because they have too much invested in the opinion they have cultivated allready.
It is a well written book...
as for knowing atf people.... I know only two. They are robots sad to say. One is a son of a friend and is a very strange guy. The point is that hardly anyone knows these ninjas... they do not show themselves unless they are wearing masks. Why is that? They seem frieghtened of the very people they are claiming to protect... protect from what? If their cause was just and they wouldn't need to wear masks... the gun culture people are not gangs or huge illegal money makers... they are hobbiests harming no one.
Oh... at waco... only one agent was killed by a davidian... the rest all were shot by their buddies with "cop killer" bullets in the confusion. Also... the children recovered were said to be the most intellegent, well cared for and healthy kdds the head of Texas Child services had ever seen. No illegal weapons were found at the "compound" (church).
raider... if you want to read about ninja abuses the book has plenty... or go to the jews for the presevation of firearms site...
or... just bury your head in the sand.
lazs
Why don't you bury your own head in the sand. You seem so scared of the ATF.
1)ATF and Federal Agents wear masks because the Frequently go UNDERCOVER! Is that really that hard a concept for you to grasp? You spend have your post calling them ninja's and asking why they do it. IT's simple to protect their identity in undercover operations.
2)As for Waco, I have no care in the world for those people except for the children who were forced into that position by their parents. The rest were extreme cultists who were stockpiling weapons for "Armageddon". Who knows what they would have done if the US government hadn't gotten to them. Also, if you have the full might of the US government outside your door, telling you to come outside, You better come out, otherwise tragedy might befall you. I have no respect for people that do not obey the law. Especially with as blatant defiance as those in Waco. Peaceful demostrations or non-violent protests excluded.
3) Let's be honest about the "fender washers and metal". Let me guess, Silencers?
4)I wouldn't read it because it advocates the killing of Federal Agents and Elected Officials. But that is what seperates me from an anarchist like you.
5)This is a common tactic. "Only 1 was killed". How many of them were shot but survived? How many went through months of pain and rehabs? Just because you shoot someone and they don't die doesnt mean that statistic doesnt matter. Its called attempted murder.
6)It's hilarious to hear you tell me to bury my head in the sand. You are so scared of the ATF and government I bet you bury your entire body under there out of fear they are gonna come get your guns. It's funny though, the more I hear you espouse your views, the more I Think maybe they should take your guns. Your an extremist who quotes the Constitution when he see's fit and ignores it when it doesnt go along with your belief that guns solve all problems. IF guns for everyone solves crime than why havent all the police started a program to arm everyone? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Enjoy your book but you should remember those same Agents that are advocated being killed in that book are the same ones who will lay their life down to protect you. A few bad apples shouldnt ruin it for all of them. Isn't that what you always say about gun owners?
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Raider, do you realize how contradictory you are?
Please, reread your own post there. If you can't pick it out, I suggest you pick another college to go to. The one you are at right now is teaching you nothing.
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Originally posted by wrag
Hmmm...........
Been allot more then 2 incidents.
Only been 2 incidents that got allot of coverage in the MAJOR media. There have been many others, but the major media did not, or were told not to, cover the incidents. Why? perhaps the media did not consider it worth coverage?
For instance I see many reports of New Orleans law abiding citizen, I'm refering to the one that DIDN'T shoot at helos, being disarmed.
I'm refering to the ones that called for the law got no response, because the police had left, some had even quit, so they decided to defend themselves, their families and their property. Citizens that were camly and quietily defending their homes. And were NOT out hunting looters, or looting. Also the private security guards hired by the rich are NOT being disarmed. But I haven't seen the MAJOR media say much of anything about it.
If you surf the net and look specifically for certain things you will find them.
I don't trust every report I see. I try and look elsewhere for more info.
Please list any systemic incidents you know of? I know there are gonna be some isolated incidents out there but no where near the level that the Paranoid gun nuts seem to think.
As for the media not covering stuff, give me a break.
Regarding New Orleans, Have you ever heard of marital law? You do understand that under it, rights can be suspended. That is American law and there is nothing illegal about it.
I think some of you forget that these Government agents in NO that are disarming people, have families too. They want to go back to their wives, kids, and loved ones after this is all over. They are playing it safe and I think you should respect that. Instead of labeling them ninja's. That is ignorant and disrespectful.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Quoted for mistruth.
Ok only person who won against the government with a gun was Randy Weaver and His wife had to die. Not quite a victory in my mind. Now go look at lawsuits and see how many times people have gotten policies changed or overturned.
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Originally posted by lazs2
but but.... no one is comeing after our guns?
wrag.. read the book. Tell us what you think. I get a little weary of raider and his ilks instant uninformed and predictable responses... I mean... they are/were funny but now it is like reading the same ayn rand novel's villian over and over.
lazs
My responses are predictable because they are rational. You can't grasp that because you are not a rational person.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Raider, do you realize how contradictory you are?
Please, reread your own post there. If you can't pick it out, I suggest you pick another college to go to. The one you are at right now is teaching you nothing.
Wow that is an insightful post you just made. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Raider179
The rest were extreme cultists who were stockpiling weapons for "Armageddon". Who knows what they would have done if the US government hadn't gotten to them.
Well, certainly. After all, even though the residents of the compound had broken no laws and were NOT wanted by the Feds (they wanted only Koresh), it's absolutely CLEAR that those in the compound were guilty until proven innocent. They had to kill them so they could then give them a fair trial.
Raider's Amreeka.
I'm actually glad I'm old.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Regarding New Orleans, Have you ever heard of marital law? You do understand that under it, rights can be suspended. That is American law and there is nothing illegal about it.
What Is Martial Law?
And is New Orleans under it?
By Keelin McDonell
Posted Friday, Sept. 2, 2005, at 2:04 PM PT
Military presence? Yes. Martial law? No.
Military presence? Yes. Martial law? No.
On Tuesday reports began circulating that New Orleans officials had put the flood-ravaged city under martial law. The attorney general's office of Louisiana quickly issued a denial. Confusion persisted, however, after White House press secretary Scott McClellan told a group of journalists on Wednesday that "martial law has been declared in Mississippi and Louisiana." Yesterday National Guard Lt. Gen H. Steven Blum sought to set the record straight, saying, "This is not, as it has been erroneously reported, martial law." What is martial law? And who can declare it?
Martial law occurs when the military assumes police powers because local authorities and courts aren't functioning. Although the president usually imposes martial law, federal regulation allows for a "local commander" to do so "on the spot, if the circumstances demand immediate action." Federal armed forces are expected to relinquish these powers as soon as the local government is once again operable. During martial law, the military may arrest and try civilians, seize private property, and institute curfews, among other emergency powers.
In practice, however, martial law has been all but barred since the late 19th century. During the Civil War, President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and set up military courts in several states in the South and Midwest. Many at the time felt that Lincoln had superseded his authority, and in 1878 Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids the military from performing civilian law enforcement without congressional approval.
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Ok only person who won against the government with a gun was Randy Weaver and His wife had to die. Not quite a victory in my mind. Now go look at lawsuits and see how many times people have gotten policies changed or overturned.
I can name many. The Founding Fathers of the United States.
I can name more. The Soldiers of the war of 1812. Want more? I can keep going.
Wow that is an insightful post you just made.
Did you even bother reading your post? Because if Lazs comes back, he's gonna rip you a new ******* you're so contradictory. I still advise you to read over what you wrote.
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Originally posted by Raider179
2)As for Waco, I have no care in the world for those people except for the children who were forced into that position by their parents.
There was no parent at Waco who put their children into a position of coming under an absurd attack. It was unexpected, unprecedented and totaly beyond the bounds of any government or law enforcement. They were interested in one man only. One which they could have easily gotten without the attack.
. The rest were extreme cultists who were stockpiling weapons for "Armageddon". Who knows what they would have done if the US government hadn't gotten to them
There were no illegal weapons found at Waco.
The term 'stockpiling" is usualy used to blow things out of proportion and by the media for shock effect. There were a lot of people at that compound.
Yea, who knows "what they would have done" if the U.S. government "hadn`t gotten to them". You don`t. I don`t and neither did they.
Also, if you have the full might of the US government outside your door, telling you to come outside, You better come out, otherwise tragedy might befall you.
The moment you become the attacker and are violating people`s rights as citizens you no longer reperesent the U.S. government. You have become the enemy of the U.S. and it`s population. You can`t hide behind a shield, a ninja suit or the people of the U.S. because you have just violated the very essence of the law put in place 'by the people". At that point YOU become the anarchist.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, certainly. After all, even though the residents of the compound had broken no laws and were NOT wanted by the Feds (they wanted only Koresh), it's absolutely CLEAR that those in the compound were guilty until proven innocent. They had to kill them so they could then give them a fair trial.
Raider's Amreeka.
I'm actually glad I'm old.
So the Ninja's killed them huh? They broke no laws? How about firing on police? How about Resisting Arrest? How about child endangerment? How about all the sex stuff Koresh supposedly was having with minors? Or do you just overlook all that?
Koresh's residence was the Branch Davidian Compound, The police had every right and reason to raid that place. That's like saying your at a drug dealers house and the police show up and you shoot at them and then saying you didn't break any laws. Yes you did. Not too mention the 2 MONTHS that passed by when they could have just walked out and got their "fair trial"
here is part of the warrant
United States District Court Western District of Texas
SEARCH WARRANT W93-15M
In the Matter of the Search of residence of Vernon Wayne Howell, and others, Rt . 7, Box 471-B, AKA: Mount Carmel Center, McLennan County, TX, its appurtenances, vehicles, underground structures located on entire premises of the 77 acre compound. See attached photos & property description Attachments A, B and C.
On June 9,1992, I was contacted by Lieutentant Barber who told me that he had learned from Larry Gilbreath that in June of 1992, the United Parcel Service delivered ninety (90) pounds of powdered aluminum metal and 30 to 40 cardboard tubes, 24 inches in length and 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inches in diameter, which were shipped from the Fox Fire Company, Pocatella, idaho, to "Mag-Bag."
Aluminum metal is a component used in making explosives in case you didnt know.
They raided the compound to secure the explosives and arrest Koresh. You arrest him offsite and leave the explosives at the compound, I think not.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
What Is Martial Law?
And is New Orleans under it?
By Keelin McDonell
Posted Friday, Sept. 2, 2005, at 2:04 PM PT
Military presence? Yes. Martial law? No.
Military presence? Yes. Martial law? No.
On Tuesday reports began circulating that New Orleans officials had put the flood-ravaged city under martial law. The attorney general's office of Louisiana quickly issued a denial. Confusion persisted, however, after White House press secretary Scott McClellan told a group of journalists on Wednesday that "martial law has been declared in Mississippi and Louisiana." Yesterday National Guard Lt. Gen H. Steven Blum sought to set the record straight, saying, "This is not, as it has been erroneously reported, martial law." What is martial law? And who can declare it?
Martial law occurs when the military assumes police powers because local authorities and courts aren't functioning. Although the president usually imposes martial law, federal regulation allows for a "local commander" to do so "on the spot, if the circumstances demand immediate action." Federal armed forces are expected to relinquish these powers as soon as the local government is once again operable. During martial law, the military may arrest and try civilians, seize private property, and institute curfews, among other emergency powers.
In practice, however, martial law has been all but barred since the late 19th century. During the Civil War, President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and set up military courts in several states in the South and Midwest. Many at the time felt that Lincoln had superseded his authority, and in 1878 Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids the military from performing civilian law enforcement without congressional approval.
martial law... YES
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html
Disgusted and furious with the lawlessness of looters who have put fear into citizens, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared Martial Law in the city and directed the city's 1,500 person police force to do "whatever it takes" to regain control of the city.
nice try next time try to use an actual source and not an editorial by some Conservative nutjob.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I can name many. The Founding Fathers of the United States.
I can name more. The Soldiers of the war of 1812. Want more? I can keep going.
Did you even bother reading your post? Because if Lazs comes back, he's gonna rip you a new ******* you're so contradictory. I still advise you to read over what you wrote.
Thought we were talking American civilians vs the government not Armed Regular troops vs Foriegn Governments.
And you are telling me to read over what I wrote.
Here let me help ya, Go look up shay's rebellion.
Oh no lasz is gonna rip a new one. wah. Why because I understand that Feds want to go home to their families and that just by being there they risk their life? Is that a hard concept for you to grasp?
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Shay's rebellion was just a bunch of jerks who didn't want to pay taxes. It wasn't a rebellion against the unconstitutionality of what the government was doing.
I suggest you study history before you reply here again. It will make you look a lot smarter.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
There was no parent at Waco who put their children into a position of coming under an absurd attack. It was unexpected, unprecedented and totaly beyond the bounds of any government or law enforcement. They were interested in one man only. One which they could have easily gotten without the attack.
There were no illegal weapons found at Waco.
The term 'stockpiling" is usualy used to blow things out of proportion and by the media for shock effect. There were a lot of people at that compound.
Yea, who knows "what they would have done" if the U.S. government "hadn`t gotten to them". You don`t. I don`t and neither did they.
The moment you become the attacker and are violating people`s rights as citizens you no longer reperesent the U.S. government. You have become the enemy of the U.S. and it`s population. You can`t hide behind a shield, a ninja suit or the people of the U.S. because you have just violated the very essence of the law put in place 'by the people". At that point YOU become the anarchist.
Really? As a parent, the moment things calmed down at waco I would have got my child out. To do is less is irresponsible and falls on the parent as fault.
Unexpected? Hardly, Koresh was preparing them for exactly an armed assault by the Government in which he would become/arise as the Savior/Messiah.
A police raid is not an attack. If BD's wouldnt have fired upon police then they would have been taken into custody.
No illegal weapons? lol
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html
Machine Guns
The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:
22 M-16 Type Rifles
20 AK-47 Type Rifles
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
2 M-11/Nine
The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
So if a suspect holes up in a house and won't come out, the police aren't allowed to "attack" and get the suspect? That is stupid beyond belief. I am no anarchist I believe in a strong federal governement as much as I believe that citizens have a duty to obey the law. Especially when the Law says hey come outside we gotta talk about these guns/explosives/sexual allegations....
Owning guns doesnt make you a victim. Disobeying the law doesnt make you a victim. Shooting Police doesn't make you a victim. Molesting Children doesn't make you a victim. Yeah Koresh was a real winner. Defend him all you like I am glad he is dead.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Shay's rebellion was just a bunch of jerks who didn't want to pay taxes. It wasn't a rebellion against the unconstitutionality of what the government was doing.
I suggest you study history before you reply here again. It will make you look a lot smarter.
It was a rebellion by ordinary citizens, Farmers against the government. But if you dont see how it applies to the discussion it wouldnt surprise me.
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Originally posted by Raider179
martial law... YES
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html
Disgusted and furious with the lawlessness of looters who have put fear into citizens, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared Martial Law in the city and directed the city's 1,500 person police force to do "whatever it takes" to regain control of the city.
nice try next time try to use an actual source and not an editorial by some Conservative nutjob.
That is just the point i am making here. If you actualy had any idea of what you were talking about you would know that the mayor does not have the authority to declare martial law and that his declartion has been disclaimed and made nil alll the way to the white house. Try to keep up here, will ya?
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Originally posted by Raider179
Really? As a parent, the moment things calmed down at waco I would have got my child out. To do is less is irresponsible and falls on the parent as fault.
Unexpected? Hardly, Koresh was preparing them for exactly an armed assault by the Government in which he would become/arise as the Savior/Messiah.
A police raid is not an attack. If BD's wouldnt have fired upon police then they would have been taken into custody.
No illegal weapons? lol
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html
Machine Guns
The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:
22 M-16 Type Rifles
20 AK-47 Type Rifles
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
2 M-11/Nine
The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
So if a suspect holes up in a house and won't come out, the police aren't allowed to "attack" and get the suspect? That is stupid beyond belief. I am no anarchist I believe in a strong federal governement as much as I believe that citizens have a duty to obey the law. Especially when the Law says hey come outside we gotta talk about these guns/explosives/sexual allegations....
Owning guns doesnt make you a victim. Disobeying the law doesnt make you a victim. Shooting Police doesn't make you a victim. Molesting Children doesn't make you a victim. Yeah Koresh was a real winner. Defend him all you like I am glad he is dead.
No one here is defending Koresh. With your off the wall quotes you used as examples you could possibly do a little research on the weapons in question.
It has became quite clear that you clearly have not got a clue as to the events or the rights of innocent people violated in this instance or any of the others discussed here.
If one wishs to forget the fact that our rights weren`t given, they were earned and have been defended on many occasions through our history as a country and completely turn over all their rights into an absolute power I consider them dead weight. Freedom
and rights didn`t come cheap
and will not be free now or in the future.
Absolute power is what this country has strived and fought to avoid. Absolute power did not work out to well for the nazis and communists and it will never be tolerated here.
Standing behind a badge does not make you right or your actions acceptable if you overstep your bounds and restraints and go against the very laws you are supposed to be protecting.
Suspicion has to be backed up with facts, then proven.
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Nope, Raider is already gone. Lost cause and all.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
That is just the point i am making here. If you actualy had any idea of what you were talking about you would know that the mayor does not have the authority to declare martial law and that his declartion has been disclaimed and made nil alll the way to the white house. Try to keep up here, will ya?
Louisiana has no law regarding establishing martial law. It does however have emergency powers which can be used to suspend civil liberties. Martial law might not be technically correct I will concede but it is basically the same thing regarding the suspension of civil liberties.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
No one here is defending Koresh. With your off the wall quotes you used as examples you could possibly do a little research on the weapons in question.
It has became quite clear that you clearly have not got a clue as to the events or the rights of innocent people violated in this instance or any of the others discussed here.
If one wishs to forget the fact that our rights weren`t given, they were earned and have been defended on many occasions through our history as a country and completely turn over all their rights into an absolute power I consider them dead weight. Freedom
and rights didn`t come cheap
and will not be free now or in the future.
Absolute power is what this country has strived and fought to avoid. Absolute power did not work out to well for the nazis and communists and it will never be tolerated here.
Standing behind a badge does not make you right or your actions acceptable if you overstep your bounds and restraints and go against the very laws you are supposed to be protecting.
Suspicion has to be backed up with facts, then proven.
Yeah right, Calling him and his followers innocent and law abiding is defending them. They were neither. Except for those kids.
I don't have to research I know what CONVERTED weapons are.
The rest of your speech is a common tyraid with the usual nazi/stalin rhetoric.
I don't want the government to have absolute power. Nor do I think that waco/ruby ridge have demostrated that the government is this terrible evil institution that you all are making it out to be.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Louisiana has no law regarding establishing martial law.
Louisiana has no law because it does not have the power or authority to do so. :)
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Nope, Raider is already gone. Lost cause and all.
Do you actually contribute anything worth dsicussing to any threads or do you just come here to get in a one-liner every now and then?
I do listen and read everything that people post to read regarding the topic at hand. Maybe you just do a poor job of putting evidence behind what you are saying???
I notice most of the Gun-lovers here do not post links to any info they put up regarding fire-arms. I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Louisiana has no law because it does not have the power or authority to do so. :)
Yeah sorry... Should have said state of emergency.
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html#examples
The governor's order limited the state of emergency, to end on 9/25/2005, "unless terminated sooner."
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Originally posted by Raider179
Yeah right, Calling him and his followers innocent and law abiding is defending them. They were neither. Except for those kids.
So, am I to take it that you believe there were no innocents, other than the children, at the compound?
Who were they found guilty by and for what before the raid?
I don't have to research I know what CONVERTED weapons are.
Let`s say I have converted weapons. Define converted. I have 'converted" lot`s of guns in my life.
Where are these illegal weapons that you speak of?
What is an "M-16 type weapon"?
An AR-15 or what? I have never seen an M-16 type weapon. I have seen an M-16. I have seen an AR-15, but never an "M-16 type weapon".
I don't want the government to have absolute power. Nor do I think that waco/ruby ridge have demostrated that the government is this terrible evil institution that you all are making it out to be
Those who do not participate in the monitoring and regualtion of such agencies are doing just that. Giving the nod for absolute power.
Sitting back with the attitude that the Federal government will protect you and serve, provide and defend you in times of chaos is being pretty damn naive. I think this has been demonstrated to the fullest in the last few days. It`s just not going to happen. That`s why it is called chaos.
Going back to the Waco raid for just a bit......
Let`s assume that there was suspicion of illegal weapons at the compound. Howitzers, Russian Tanks, the odd nuke laying around here and there.............whatever.
The fact was known that David went to the lumber yard in Waco on the same day every week.
You arrest David at the lumber yard and detain him for suspicion, questioning or whatever.
You then take a search warrant to the compound, knock on the door and serve it in an orderly manner. There would have been no problem.
What you don`t do is conduct a storm trooper type raid on private property and expect not to have your butt handed to you.
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On second thought, I`ll up my anti.
OK, let`s assume every single sole in the compound is guilty with the exception of the children. (not legal to assume that , but for the sake of argument)
Now you storm in with your band of merry madmen with the backing of the heads of this Federal agency.
We`ll even go so far as to say that the feds were fired upon first. (Not the way I saw it, but just for arguments sake).
OK, shots are fired. You are aware of the fact that children are inside.
You continue the attack at this point such as they did, firing from cover, not knowing if you were going to hit an adult or a child?
Tell me where that is anyones book of tactics and rules, etc.
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The Waco raid aftermath:
Clinton:
"I gave into the people at the Justice Department who were pleading to go in early, and I felt personally responsible for what happened and I still do,'' the president said. ``I made a terrible mistake.''
Reno:
Reno told reporters that ``I think everybody who has been touched by Waco would like to be able to undo it. But the real issue is'' for the president and ``all of us ... what could we have done to have prevented the tragedy?''
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Originally posted by Jackal1
So, am I to take it that you believe there were no innocents, other than the children, at the compound?
Who were they found guilty by and for what before the raid?
Let`s say I have converted weapons. Define converted. I have 'converted" lot`s of guns in my life.
Where are these illegal weapons that you speak of?
What is an "M-16 type weapon"?
An AR-15 or what? I have never seen an M-16 type weapon. I have seen an M-16. I have seen an AR-15, but never an "M-16 type weapon".
Those who do not participate in the monitoring and regualtion of such agencies are doing just that. Giving the nod for absolute power.
Sitting back with the attitude that the Federal government will protect you and serve, provide and defend you in times of chaos is being pretty damn naive. I think this has been demonstrated to the fullest in the last few days. It`s just not going to happen. That`s why it is called chaos.
Going back to the Waco raid for just a bit......
Let`s assume that there was suspicion of illegal weapons at the compound. Howitzers, Russian Tanks, the odd nuke laying around here and there.............whatever.
The fact was known that David went to the lumber yard in Waco on the same day every week.
You arrest David at the lumber yard and detain him for suspicion, questioning or whatever.
You then take a search warrant to the compound, knock on the door and serve it in an orderly manner. There would have been no problem.
What you don`t do is conduct a storm trooper type raid on private property and expect not to have your butt handed to you.
They were heavily armed extremists who decided to fight it out with the government and they lost.
Conversion is when you change a semi to fully. What you have "done all your life" is modification.
Your absolute power argument is ridiculous. What exactly did YOU do to Monitor and Regulate the government? lmao I will stand up against the government IF and WHEN it is ever necessary but I see absolutely NO reason for it at present. Nor do I see any reasons to walk around like any day the "Ninja's" are gonna bust in your house and take your guns or just kill you. It's ridiculous and is paranoia.
LOL look if the guy you want to arrest is hoarding automatic weapons and explosives and is talking about the end of the world and how he is the savior you don't go "Knock on the door". You go in fast and you go in strong. When you have to arrest someone whose followers believe he is Jesus and the end of the world is coming you think you should just go up and knock on the door and say "Hi, how's it going? We are the ATF and we just arrested the guy you think is Jesus, now we'd like to have a look around. " Maybe you should bring them their newpaper from the drive-way on your way up to the door too? :lol
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Originally posted by Jackal1
On second thought, I`ll up my anti.
OK, let`s assume every single sole in the compound is guilty with the exception of the children. (not legal to assume that , but for the sake of argument)
Now you storm in with your band of merry madmen with the backing of the heads of this Federal agency.
We`ll even go so far as to say that the feds were fired upon first. (Not the way I saw it, but just for arguments sake).
OK, shots are fired. You are aware of the fact that children are inside.
You continue the attack at this point such as they did, firing from cover, not knowing if you were going to hit an adult or a child?
Tell me where that is anyones book of tactics and rules, etc.
Perhaps you missed the cops that shot the guy and the baby a few weeks ago.(LA I think) Someone starts shooting, Police, law enforcement, whoever is gonna do what they have to, to make that threat go away.
Not only to mention as I recall no children were shot from the initial assault if even at all during the siege.
If I also remember correctly You may fire on anyone who is endangering yours or someone else's life.
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Oh, so the law is only important when you want it to be? Another contradiction. I still suggest you should read over everything you've written in this post alone. It is actually quite comical.
It's ridiculous and is paranoia.
Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they are aren't out to get you. :aok
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Oh, so the law is only important when you want it to be? Another contradiction. I still suggest you should read over everything you've written in this post alone. It is actually quite comical.
Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they are aren't out to get you. :aok
1) Who said that?
2)You want to point out anything or just make generalizations?
3)I have nothing to be "GOT" for. Maybe that's why I am not paranoid.:lol
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No, I don't want to point it out. I want to leave it as evidence to how poor of an education you have.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, I don't want to point it out. I want to leave it as evidence to how poor of an education you have.
Your a waste of time in that case.
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No, I'm not. Any single person with a third grade education can come in here and pick out your inconsistancies. Any single person but you.
By me being here and rediculing you, I have brought all watching eyes upon you. Any leverage or credibility you had, is now gone.
Enjoy your day.
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Originally posted by Toad
The Waco raid aftermath:
Clinton:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I gave into the people at the Justice Department who were pleading to go in early, and I felt personally responsible for what happened and I still do,'' the president said. ``I made a terrible mistake.''
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow!! What a concept. A president that actually takes responsibility and admits mistakes.
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raider...whew... this is pretty strange... the AtF agents are "undercover" so they have to wear masks? Who are they undercover from? They are seeking the arest of individuals not gangs or mobs or even organizations.... Who are they afraid of? You claim they are "protecting us" soooo.... why wear masks like common thugs in the night?
Shouldn't we all have a look at these brave soldiers who are protecting us from.... from what? a gun owner? If they are doing right then they need not put on masks like common thugs simply to arrest middle aged hobbiests and white seperatists and the members of a church?
Oh wait... not just any gun owner..one who may convert a gun to full auto without paying the $200 tax first?? That's is reason enough for a no knock full on assault on a citizens home right? and.... who knows... he might be part of a vast cabal that will see the faces of these ninjas and.... point at them... Maybe take their pictures.. Who do most of us fear more... a gun owner or the ATF?
At waco... Not one... nope... not one gun ownned by those in the church... yep... church not "compound" not one gun was ever proven to have been illegaly converted (no $200 tax paid) to full auto.... if so... why were none of the survivors charged with any gun crime at all?
you seem to feel that owning a number of guns is enough to send in the waco ninja killers.... What number would that be comrad?
As a reasonable man who knows about these things...How many guns should I be able to own before you feel threatened enough to send in the waco killers?
And... there is documentary proof of ATF "experts" trying to make a case that a gun with a worn sear is a "converted" weapon and cases of a person with nothing more than muffler tubing and fender washers in his garage being arrested for silencer parts... sure.... you will get off but not before they destroy your home and force you to spend everything you have to defend yourself in court... and you better do it too because if you lose.... 5 years in federal pen.... more than most rapists and burglars get.
but still.... I would like to know what organization you feel that the atf ninjas need to be hidden behind masks from... the NRA perhaps? The guys mother or father? Why don't city police go around in ninja masks? Certainly they run into much more violent and organized criminals than the middle aged hobbiests that the brave ATF goes after?
I don't expect to get any answers from you that make any sense and I don't expect you to read the book or the award nominated documentaries that sparked new congressional investigations into waco. You would merely denny what your eyes and ears seen and heard.
lazs
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Originally posted by Raider179
They were heavily armed extremists who decided to fight it out with the government and they lost.
Well..I see you wasn`t up to the challenge of explaining away procedure , law, rights, etc when it came to the kids. To be expected, no biggy.
Ok, so you keep saying extremists. Extremist what? Who decided they were extremists? Who put theirself above the law that made it OK to kill kids?
Who`s government did they decide to fight it out with? I can tell you it wasn`t representitive of MY government. By that I mean the government of the U.S. they lost? Lives were lost, but what they stood up against certainly wasn`t lost. The initial battle for sure wasn`t lost. They handed the feds their behinds in a basket. That`s sad in itself seeing how their was some good people with families wearing them shields that lost their life because of some history making , terrible decisions and directives.
Conversion is when you change a semi to fully. What you have "done all your life" is modification.
You haven`t a clue what I`ve done all my life. You also , evidently, don`t have a clue of the issue here. You have never participated if your posts are factual
.
Your absolute power argument is ridiculous
Is it? Tell me what you know about absolute power at your young age. You can`t because you don`t seem to be able to grasp even the possibilty of it , not to mention the concept.
Find yourself a WWII Vet or a family member who survived or fought against the Nazi regime. They can probably explain 'absolute power" to you and make you understand it.
i know if my dad were still alive he could certainly make you see the light. I watched, in pride, as he hobbled around on two feet that was supposed to be amputated. Him and many like him fought and died against 'absolute power". They did this to defend and uphold what was right and to defeat "absolute power" and it`s sheer horrors.
To disrepect that and those before them and all the lives that have been sacrificed so that younguns such as yourself could have the right to voice assinine beliefs and opinions and live in freedom without tyranny is , to say the least, disturbing. I expect you will change a lot of your views on things with age so long as people are willing to defend human rights and our constitution. You haven`t the slightest clue about what you are spouting.
What exactly did YOU do to Monitor and Regulate the government?
I vote. I speak out in any direction possible when I see government overstepping it`s bounds and authority.
I`ve found, through the years, that organizations such as the NRA has a big voice in what is and isn`t allowed in our country. Public opinion counts when it is done in the proper way. You get down past the mumbo/jumbo it boils down to votes son. That`s what every politician in this day and time is out for.
You seem to come off as being totaly afraid to speak your mind, as for as government goes, and seem to think that the citizens of this country have no alternative but to sit and watch, not to participate in protecting the rights and laws this country was founded and based on.
I`m glad you are a minority. If you were not the makers of Vaseline would be number one in industry. :)
lmao I will stand up against the government IF and WHEN it is ever necessary but I see absolutely NO reason for it at present.
I know son and that`s some sad chit. We are the government unless people freely hand over their rights and lose their friggen backbone such as you seem to have done.
If in the last week or so you haven`t learned that the powers that be, if left to their own devices, without public intervention, will protect and provide for you , then you probably will never. You are most likely going to be dead weight as you are now.
LOL look if the guy you want to arrest is hoarding automatic weapons and explosives and is talking about the end of the world and how he is the savior you don't go "Knock on the door". You go in fast and you go in strong
Sure you do. It worked out real well for them, didn`t it? they got their butts handed to them in a sling.
People were in and out of there on a daily basis without a problem.
Detain David at the lumber yard , knock on the door, serve the warrant. No prob.
When someone professes to be the saviour and nobody can recall them walking on water or turning water into wine, you treat them as any other emotionaly disturbed person. What you don`t do is kill a bunch of innocent people in a showboat for media coverage storm trooper assault. Senseless and stupid, not to mention against every thing this country stands for.
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Originally posted by Silat
Wow!! What a concept. A president that actually takes responsibility and admits mistakes.
Remind of the punishments meted out for Waco.
Repsonsibility? " I did not have...."
I think you know the rest.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Perhaps you missed the cops that shot the guy and the baby a few weeks ago.(LA I think) Someone starts shooting, Police, law enforcement, whoever is gonna do what they have to, to make that threat go away.
Tell me again who the baby was a threat to.
If you are professional and you are following procedure at the first hint of a threat to an innocent, you pull back, IMMEDIATELY, regroup and negoiate.
When you put on the shield and take the oath you have put your life on the line. You have sworn to protect innocent lives, even at the cost of your own.
Not only to mention as I recall no children were shot from the initial assault if even at all during the siege.
Exactly what are you recalling from?
It makes it OK to slaughter children and innocent people by fire after the initial assault?
"OK guys, don`t kill any kids on the way in. We`re going to burn them to death later" That your idea of correct?
If I also remember correctly You may fire on anyone who is endangering yours or someone else's life
You can fire on anyone, at anytime, but yes you are correct and that is exactly what the people in the compound did.
They repelled a lawless attack.
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Originally posted by lazs2
raider...whew... this is pretty strange... the AtF agents are "undercover" so they have to wear masks? Who are they undercover from? They are seeking the arest of individuals not gangs or mobs or even organizations.... Who are they afraid of? You claim they are "protecting us" soooo.... why wear masks like common thugs in the night?
Shouldn't we all have a look at these brave soldiers who are protecting us from.... from what? a gun owner? If they are doing right then they need not put on masks like common thugs simply to arrest middle aged hobbiests and white seperatists and the members of a church?
Oh wait... not just any gun owner..one who may convert a gun to full auto without paying the $200 tax first?? That's is reason enough for a no knock full on assault on a citizens home right? and.... who knows... he might be part of a vast cabal that will see the faces of these ninjas and.... point at them... Maybe take their pictures.. Who do most of us fear more... a gun owner or the ATF?
At waco... Not one... nope... not one gun ownned by those in the church... yep... church not "compound" not one gun was ever proven to have been illegaly converted (no $200 tax paid) to full auto.... if so... why were none of the survivors charged with any gun crime at all?
you seem to feel that owning a number of guns is enough to send in the waco ninja killers.... What number would that be comrad?
As a reasonable man who knows about these things...How many guns should I be able to own before you feel threatened enough to send in the waco killers?
And... there is documentary proof of ATF "experts" trying to make a case that a gun with a worn sear is a "converted" weapon and cases of a person with nothing more than muffler tubing and fender washers in his garage being arrested for silencer parts... sure.... you will get off but not before they destroy your home and force you to spend everything you have to defend yourself in court... and you better do it too because if you lose.... 5 years in federal pen.... more than most rapists and burglars get.
but still.... I would like to know what organization you feel that the atf ninjas need to be hidden behind masks from... the NRA perhaps? The guys mother or father? Why don't city police go around in ninja masks? Certainly they run into much more violent and organized criminals than the middle aged hobbiests that the brave ATF goes after?
I don't expect to get any answers from you that make any sense and I don't expect you to read the book or the award nominated documentaries that sparked new congressional investigations into waco. You would merely denny what your eyes and ears seen and heard.
lazs
Lazs First I just want to say I appreciate your patience and tone. I do not claim to be an expert on guns but thanks anyway for trying to express your views instead of just being arrogant and obnoxious. Now lets get dirty. lol
1)You obviously do not understand the idea of "undercover police". Its simple, law enforcement that goes undercover can not just show their face. To do so jeopardizes their careers, lives, and lives of their families and those who have worked with them. I do understand your point though. I just disagree about the necessity of doing it.
2)You dont really count the Branch Davidian as a church do you? Either way I don't care if its a church or just a bunch of individuals. Koresh (their Jesus) brought that upon them.
3)I have no problems with no-knock warrants. I think the safety of the officers outweighs anything you can put up against a no-knock.
4)Ummm I just quoted a link where they had 46 converted weapons. Now surely you arent gonna tell me converted doesnt mean they took semi-autos and made them fully's? Also how bout the AL metal they got in the UPS shipment? how about the modified grenades? Plenty of good reason to go in with a no-knock.
5)The number of guns is irrelevant. The explosives and illegal conversions are enough to go in with. I could care less about actual numbers of the legal fire-arms it's the illegal weaponary that makes the case.
6)If you had illegal weaponary the number does not matter. You live in America follow the law or leave. Again see Socrates/Aristole on the duty of a citizen.
7)You have no idea wether the person charged was actually converting weapons or not. I am sure they had something that made them think that guy was making silencers or suppressors. Link it plz.
8)The "ninja's" need to hide their identity so that when they go Undercover, someone doesnt recognize them and kill them. It's not an organization they dont want to see them it's the criminal populace.
9)I have seen the documentary including all the infra-red footage . I still maintain that the Branch Davidians the responsibility rests. They were in there for 2+ months. They had plenty of time to come out and have their say in court, instead they decided to fight it out and they lost. Lesson "Don't fight the government with guns, Fight them in court"
10)I also watched the senate hearings and have seen the survivors testify. None of it makes me feel like they were right and the government was wrong. In my eyes it was an insurrection and it got dealt with severly. I personally wish they would have went in earlier and not wasted so much tax-payer money on people who REFUSED to obey the laws that we have.
Question, why did the Branch Davidians not come out after the initial assault?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, I'm not. Any single person with a third grade education can come in here and pick out your inconsistancies. Any single person but you.
By me being here and rediculing you, I have brought all watching eyes upon you. Any leverage or credibility you had, is now gone.
Enjoy your day.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Laser where did Lasz eat up my inconsistencies?
Where did he get me for all the crap you "Won't talk about because it's so obviously stupid"?
You can't do anything but cheer or boo from the sidelines. I knew it as soon as you said "Wait for Lasz" instead of entering in on your own. Grow a pair.
Now that no-one has supported or brought to light your accusations against me kinda makes you look stupid doesnt it?
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Well..I see you wasn`t up to the challenge of explaining away procedure , law, rights, etc when it came to the kids. To be expected, no biggy.
Ok, so you keep saying extremists. Extremist what? Who decided they were extremists? Who put theirself above the law that made it OK to kill kids?
Who`s government did they decide to fight it out with? I can tell you it wasn`t representitive of MY government. By that I mean the government of the U.S. they lost? Lives were lost, but what they stood up against certainly wasn`t lost. The initial battle for sure wasn`t lost. They handed the feds their behinds in a basket. That`s sad in itself seeing how their was some good people with families wearing them shields that lost their life because of some history making , terrible decisions and directives.
You haven`t a clue what I`ve done all my life. You also , evidently, don`t have a clue of the issue here. You have never participated if your posts are factual
.
Is it? Tell me what you know about absolute power at your young age. You can`t because you don`t seem to be able to grasp even the possibilty of it , not to mention the concept.
Find yourself a WWII Vet or a family member who survived or fought against the Nazi regime. They can probably explain 'absolute power" to you and make you understand it.
i know if my dad were still alive he could certainly make you see the light. I watched, in pride, as he hobbled around on two feet that was supposed to be amputated. Him and many like him fought and died against 'absolute power". They did this to defend and uphold what was right and to defeat "absolute power" and it`s sheer horrors.
To disrepect that and those before them and all the lives that have been sacrificed so that younguns such as yourself could have the right to voice assinine beliefs and opinions and live in freedom without tyranny is , to say the least, disturbing. I expect you will change a lot of your views on things with age so long as people are willing to defend human rights and our constitution. You haven`t the slightest clue about what you are spouting.
I vote. I speak out in any direction possible when I see government overstepping it`s bounds and authority.
I`ve found, through the years, that organizations such as the NRA has a big voice in what is and isn`t allowed in our country. Public opinion counts when it is done in the proper way. You get down past the mumbo/jumbo it boils down to votes son. That`s what every politician in this day and time is out for.
You seem to come off as being totaly afraid to speak your mind, as for as government goes, and seem to think that the citizens of this country have no alternative but to sit and watch, not to participate in protecting the rights and laws this country was founded and based on.
I`m glad you are a minority. If you were not the makers of Vaseline would be number one in industry. :)
I know son and that`s some sad chit. We are the government unless people freely hand over their rights and lose their friggen backbone such as you seem to have done.
If in the last week or so you haven`t learned that the powers that be, if left to their own devices, without public intervention, will protect and provide for you , then you probably will never. You are most likely going to be dead weight as you are now.
Sure you do. It worked out real well for them, didn`t it? they got their butts handed to them in a sling.
People were in and out of there on a daily basis without a problem.
Detain David at the lumber yard , knock on the door, serve the warrant. No prob.
When someone professes to be the saviour and nobody can recall them walking on water or turning water into wine, you treat them as any other emotionaly disturbed person. What you don`t do is kill a bunch of innocent people in a showboat for media coverage storm trooper assault. Senseless and stupid, not to mention against every thing this country stands for.
1)I did explain it, you just didnt agree with it. Big difference. Like I said the parents and Koresh are to blame for the kids deaths not the government. No one forced them to stay in the Compound for 2 months when they could have walked out and had their "fair trial"
2)Oh ok I guess that people that believe their leader is Jesus and that the world is ending are not extremists
:rolleyes:
3)The davidians put themselves above the law and thats why kids got killed.
4) The feds could have taken the compound at anytime they wanted to but they didnt. That should say something to you but I bet it passes right over your head. Why did the feds engage in negotiations for 2 MONTHS if they just wanted to kill all the "innocent" people?
5)Finally someone who recognizes that federal agents are not all "ninja's"
6)Your the one who didnt know the difference between conversion and modification so what am I supposed to think with your "whole life" experience leaving you unable to discern the difference bewteen the two.
7)Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Yet I don't see absolute power in our government. I see checks and balances and courts. The answer is not a gun, it lays in debate and discussion.
8)We have larger problems right now than stupid guns. I am sorry you don't understand that.
9)To say I dishonor anyone or am somehow unamerican which is what you are saying basically, is dishonor to those people. They fought so I could voice my opinion no matter what it is.
10) So basically you are an NRA member and that is your way of "monitoring and regulating the government". That is weak. Wow you do a good job of keeping the government in line. Don't chide others on their not keeping tabs (on the gov't) when all you do is subscribe to a magazine/website.
11)I speak my mind plenty on the government and have been involved with more government agents/officials than I am sure you have ever seen. I have no problems expressing how I feel about both with the experience from having dealt with lots of them. I am opinionated as hell and how you could say I am afraid to speak my mind just shows me you have already pre-judged anything I have to say.
12)I am not the minority. Automatic weapons are illegal for the general populace, there is a waiting peroid, Felons cannot own guns. These are all things I agree with and they are the law. Looks like you are the minority not me. (not counting are the republican cronies on this board that hide behind "libertarian" stauts.
13)I have extensive fire-arms training so not sure what you mean. It's been awhile since I have been to the range but I still like to go shoot. In fact we have a place in athens that rents fully's that I have been meaning to go visit, just been busy with school and work.
14)LoL I have been waiting on the NO reference. Does "Mandatory Evacuation" mean anything to you? My family we have lived on the GA coast for 15 years leaves when hurricanes come, maybe its cause we can afford to since we don't blow tons of cash on guns and bullets. I don't rely on the government for anything besides protection from external invasion and maybe some good roads. Beyond that I expect nothing.
15) Like I said you just gonna arrest their jesus and then go knock on the door? I would hate to be on a swat team with you in charge. You would lead to a lot more casulties than there would have been.
Please don't call me son. You are not my dad and act nothing like him. He is retired customs service of 24 years.
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Originally posted by Toad
Remind of the punishments meted out for Waco.
Repsonsibility? " I did not have...."
I think you know the rest.
Were any Feds charged in Waco? I dont know just asking.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Tell me again who the baby was a threat to.
If you are professional and you are following procedure at the first hint of a threat to an innocent, you pull back, IMMEDIATELY, regroup and negoiate.
When you put on the shield and take the oath you have put your life on the line. You have sworn to protect innocent lives, even at the cost of your own.
Exactly what are you recalling from?
It makes it OK to slaughter children and innocent people by fire after the initial assault?
"OK guys, don`t kill any kids on the way in. We`re going to burn them to death later" That your idea of correct?
You can fire on anyone, at anytime, but yes you are correct and that is exactly what the people in the compound did.
They repelled a lawless attack.
Are you a cop? If not please don't speak like you are one.
Lawless attack lol
Perhaps you should go look at the warrant. That might give you some insight into why there was a LEGAL warrant issued.
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Now a few questions for you pro-waco guys.
1)Were there illegal weapons at Waco?
2)Were there illegal explosives at Waco?
3)Was Koresh sexually molesting children at Waco?
4)Did the Branch Davidians after the inital assault, come out and face their "day in court"?
5)Was the government trying to kill them or just force them to leave the compound?
6)Do you think you have the right to repulse government agents executing a legal search warrant with fire-arms?
7)Do you think as a citizen of this country you are obligated to abide by all laws?
Simple questions, yes or no will suffice but if you care to expand I will be glad to read and see what you have to say.
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Is this a ninja?
(http://www.twigsdigs.com/stuff/news/aldiaz.jpg)
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Originally posted by Yeager
Im simply AMAZED MP8 has not LOCKED this thread.....
Not that it deserves being locked, it doesn't (thats my point).
Dont provoke the gods of ambiguity...For godsake man run...run for your life....
TJ
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ok raider... you say that the ATF, "F" troop as the other agencies call them, need to go undercover when they raid private citizens homes in the middle of the night with no knock warrants... You never said why... you seem to admit that they are not going up against organized crime here.
The "converted" guns. To this day not one of the "converted" guns has ever been released for examination even after congress asked for it to be done so... but... say that they were... if you saw the vid you know that Koresh told ATF agents months before that they were welcome to come over and examine all of his firearms. This is standard procedure... there were several FFL dealers in the church and they are bound by law to inspection... this is the normal way to do things.
If you saw the FLIR as did congress... you know that one thing is sure... Every single thing that the ATF and even the FBI said was a lie. They never once told the truth ever.... every tape or log or bit of evidence that was made and would prove them to be truthful or liars that was in their hands was somehow missing.... every indipendent piece of evidence contradicted everything they said. FBI "we did not fire one shot at the Davidians" cut to Flir images of FBI or delta teams under the FBI machine gunning the building while it was on fire and people were trying to escape... they machine gunned the only exit.
The ATF did go to the door... they actually drove by and when they seen karresh they opened fire and killed a 2 year old and an old man... that was the first shots fired... no warning.
The ATF fired till they ran out of bullets. they were then helpless. The davidians allowed them to take their dead and wounded... the film shows ATF with hands in the air walking backwards while other agents are carrying dead and wounded... the davidians could have slaughtered the unarmed ATF buffoons at that point. They didn't.... they kept their word.
Or maybe you didn't really see the award nominated vid? It is "Rules of Engagement" you owe it to yourself to watch it... you will find that you are in good company... the KKK offered to help the ATF.
lazs
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Originally posted by Raider179
1) Like I said the parents and Koresh are to blame for the kids deaths not the government. No one forced them to stay in the Compound for 2 months when they could have walked out and had their "fair trial"
...And like I said numerous times their interest was in David alone. He could have been gotten away from the compound on any given week without the storm trooper tactics.
The rest would have been simple. There was no need for the whole fiasco other than a showboat session which was supposed to get "good press".
Fair trial my aching back. Yea, I`m sure they felt certain that they would get a "fair trial" after what they had been through and had witnessed in the past concerning situations like this. :)
4) The feds could have taken the compound at anytime they wanted to but they didnt. That should say something to you but I bet it passes right over your head
Their first attempt doesn`t seem to show that. :)
I think if anything is passing over anyone`s head it is the fact that after the initial "showboat" attack, they had their butts in a crack legaly and had the public eye on them. The time was spent shuffling blame and with attorneys trying to dig a way out with as much damage control, politicaly, as possible.
Why did the feds engage in negotiations for 2 MONTHS if they just wanted to kill all the "innocent" people?
See above. :)
Your the one who didnt know the difference between conversion and modification so what am I supposed to think with your "whole life" experience leaving you unable to discern the difference bewteen the two.
Yea, I think I could muddle my way through.:) You missed the point, or more like it,selectivly passed over it .
Yet I don't see absolute power in our government. I see checks and balances and courts
Yep, that has to be monitored and regulated "by the people" that get involved and are not intimidated to do so. If that ever stops you won`t have a say in the matter. that`s the point.
The answer is not a gun, it lays in debate and discussion.
Hard to debate or discuss anything in a firefight. all the noise , blood and stuff sort of puts a damper on it.
We have larger problems right now than stupid guns. I am sorry you don't understand that.
There are no larger problems than rights and the operation of our country. I am sorry that you can`t see that. Maybe take off the rose colored glasses. Might clear your vision up.
They fought so I could voice my opinion no matter what it is.
I believe that`s exactly the point I made. What they didn`t fight for was to have all the effort and sacrifice thrown down the tubes.
So basically you are an NRA member and that is your way of "monitoring and regulating the government". That is weak. Wow you do a good job of keeping the government in line. Don't chide others on their not keeping tabs (on the gov't) when all you do is subscribe to a magazine/website.
We can start with the NRA comment here. If you actualy think that a magazine/website is all there is to the organization you are very, very misinformed. NRA is the voice, a very large voice, of it`s members. When they speak on an issue, you can bet your sweet bippy that politicians listen.
If it has an effect on votes, they listen.
Let`s get real.....A politician will change horses in mid- stream, ride that horse standing on his head sing Get Along Home Cindy if it will get votes.
There is alot more one can do too. Starting at local , state levels all the way up the line. The trick is to make your voice heard by groups. Something that will effect votes. That`s pretty simple. you should be able to grasp it without blowing a circuit.
11)I speak my mind plenty on the government and have been involved with more government agents/officials than I am sure you have ever seen. I have no problems expressing how I feel about both with the experience from having dealt with lots of them. I am opinionated as hell and how you could say I am afraid to speak my mind just shows me you have already pre-judged anything I have to say.
I seriously doubt the above statements. Sticking your head in a barrel and yelling just to hear the echo of your own voice doesn`t do much.
Automatic weapons are illegal for the general populace, there is a waiting peroid, Felons cannot own guns.
Automatic weapons are not illegal with a permit.
Waiting periods have no effect on anyone besides the law abiding.
Felons can and do own guns.
They are the only ones that gun laws do not effect.
Does "Mandatory Evacuation" mean anything to you?
Not much when it comes after the fact.
15) Like I said you just gonna arrest their jesus and then go knock on the door? I would hate to be on a swat team with you in charge. You would lead to a lot more casulties than there would have been
And like I said...:) David could have been taken down at the lumber yard on any given week. The rest would have been simple. There would have been no casualties as there would have been no gunfire.
. You are not my dad and act nothing like him. He is retired customs service of 24 years
:D Do tell! I think that clears a lot up then. lmao
Yep, I`m not your dad. Something we can agree on and both be thankfull for. :)
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and finaly.... If the ATF is indeed the protector of all us poor citizens that may be at the mercy of a madman like Koresh and the children and the occassional middle aged class three dealer who has 3 legal regestered machine guns but may allso have an auto sear that he MAY use to convert another gun or poke someones eye out with on the subway or something..
Why do they need to go undercover for such opps? the local police had been to Korreshs church many times.... there had been firearms inspections before.... the middle aged gun dealers they hound are not some organized gang... afraid the wife might go after em for ruining their lives?
Perhaps all your arguemnts about the safety of the rest of us and the need to ninja out on a raid would make more sense if...
The ATF made raids on gang members in the middle of the ghetto?
or, perhaps you, like they... feel that either gang members (some million strong) are not really breaking any laws or are any kind of threat to the rest of us and that the ATF should concentrate it's resources toward the much more dangerous middle aged gun collector.
Even tho.... no class 3 dealer (the ones they raid in the middle of the night in full ninja gear) even tho none of these people has ever used a gun in a crime...
I could maybe see the 30 to 1 masked ninja mentality making a little sense if they were going after gang members in the middle of the ghetto. Not against law abiding citizens. Not against citizens who had opended their homes willingly to police in the past..
Nothing you can say justifies what they (ninjas) did or do in this light....
And... ATF admitted that the whole davidian raid was set up to garner pubicity (favorable ironicaly enough) for themselves and funding. They called the press and they created the mess. They caused the death of those people and their own people. No one needed to die.
as I said... neighbors and local police met with and shared the hospitality of the Davidians on numerous occassions. they had never threatened anyone. locals used the davidian range to shoot. The local sherrif said that the davidians were all "good people" and not at all violent.
least not till a group of ninjas in the wee hours of the morning stormed their home and fired thousands of rounds into it.
lazs
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BTW Laz....My oldest daughter works next to a Hastings store. She is going to see if they have it in stock for me today, which I seriously doubt. :) If they don`t she is going to have them order it just for grins.
Thanks for the tip.
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For those reading my and raiders views of what happened at Waco and who have only heard what reporters a mile and a half away said about the whole thing.... I urge you to watch the two documentaries...
"Unintended Consequences" and/or "Waco, a New Revelation" both are documentaries and nothing in them (U.C. at least) has ever been refuted or proved false.. both sides are shown in a pretty even handed way.
After you have watched the documentaries I would like you to re read what raider and I have said and would very much like to hear your opinions.
I would ask you if raiders and the ATF's version of how America should be is the one you subscribe to.
lazs
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The truth about Waco | (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/09/waco/index1.html)
A Waco survivor's version of what happened. Be proud Raider.. oh, wait... it' didn't happen like that. Only it did and it's been shown as Laz said. Like
Infrared images taken from surveillance planes seem to indicate that the FBI was -- despite its denials -- firing shots into the building and shooting at Branch Davidians who tried to flee.
And
Everything was bought and sold on a legal basis. In fact, weeks before the raid, Koresh offered the ATF the opportunity to come out to Mount Carmel and inspect the building and every single weapon we had. They refused.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Were any Feds charged in Waco? I dont know just asking.
Nope. From Waco: The Rules of Engagement
There were two agents, commanders of ATF, who were supposedly fired. They went to the Labor Relations Board and claimed it was a political cover-up, etc. Long story short, they got reinstated. The official ATF story is they are on desk jobs, no badge, no gun. I am told by numerous people in the agency that that is a lie. Bottom line, no one has been held accountable for anything either at the ATF or the FBI.
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Raider................
I am deeply saddened by your stance.
I am also ......... at a loss for words.
To me the lack of ..... hmm differences in..... understanding?
Dangit I'm not sure that's a correct wording.
The difference's exposed within the preceding post are so great ..........
I find myself thinking that our cultural base is sooooo far apart it would be almost useless to attempt any explanation of mine to anyone with such a view point.
To me the government is NOT my friend. It is, perhaps, a necassary evil.
I'm not saying I hate it or dispise it. I'm saying that anytime people govern other people terrible things can happen.
History shows it over and over. The proof is there. Millions of people destroyed by an out of control government.
I'm also saying what many here have already tried to express.
Rights are just that rights.
The people at Waco are considered by many as wacko's.
Hey FYI we all of us have the right to be wacko's!!!
We are at liberty to think what we wish about anything.
I shuddered when I heard so many say .... so what they were just a bunch of religious wacko's.
Why?
Because WHO decides? The media? The government? YOU?
Because someone believes differently then you, or maybe the majority of the people, they must be destroyed?
OR
It's OK the government can kill them cause their just religious wacko's????
OK what happens if the government decides there is something wrong about your belief system, whatever that might be? Such has happened before. It can be enginered by devious people far easier then many wish to believe.
Will it be alright for the government to kill you? Will the media paint you as just another wacko? Will many people say no problem he was just a wacko?
The message here..........
I am not free unless you are free! You are not free unless I am free.
That IMHO is NOT what happened at Waco.
At Waco, IMHO the door was opened, for a time anyway, to the lose of rights, liberty, and freedom for ALL.
Hey don't get me wrong here. I think Koresh was wrong, and those that believed in him mislead. YET THEY HAD THE RIGHT TO DO SO!
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Originally posted by Raider179
So the Ninja's killed them huh? They broke no laws? How about firing on police? How about Resisting Arrest? How about child endangerment? How about all the sex stuff Koresh supposedly was having with minors? Or do you just overlook all that?
Koresh's residence was the Branch Davidian Compound, The police had every right and reason to raid that place. That's like saying your at a drug dealers house and the police show up and you shoot at them and then saying you didn't break any laws. Yes you did. Not too mention the 2 MONTHS that passed by when they could have just walked out and got their "fair trial"
here is part of the warrant
United States District Court Western District of Texas
SEARCH WARRANT W93-15M
In the Matter of the Search of residence of Vernon Wayne Howell, and others, Rt . 7, Box 471-B, AKA: Mount Carmel Center, McLennan County, TX, its appurtenances, vehicles, underground structures located on entire premises of the 77 acre compound. See attached photos & property description Attachments A, B and C.
On June 9,1992, I was contacted by Lieutentant Barber who told me that he had learned from Larry Gilbreath that in June of 1992, the United Parcel Service delivered ninety (90) pounds of powdered aluminum metal and 30 to 40 cardboard tubes, 24 inches in length and 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inches in diameter, which were shipped from the Fox Fire Company, Pocatella, idaho, to "Mag-Bag."
Aluminum metal is a component used in making explosives in case you didnt know.
They raided the compound to secure the explosives and arrest Koresh. You arrest him offsite and leave the explosives at the compound, I think not.
What police? They were BATF. The same people that went after Randy Weaver.
The County Sheriff has said he regrets allowing the BATF and other Federal Government people into his County. He was of the opinion that Koresh and his people were basically harmless. Child Protective Services had been there with NO PROBLEM.
As to aluminum? It has soooooo many uses, why do you ASSUME it was for explosives? Why not for fireworks? As to the cardboard tubes? They have many uses too. Why ASSUME they were intended to be used as bomb/explosive devices?
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I seem to recall at one point Janet Reno expressing concern that several milita's were on the way to Waco and she acted accordingly.
Does anyone remember that particular newcast?
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Originally posted by Raider179
Now a few questions for you pro-waco guys.
1)Were there illegal weapons at Waco?
2)Were there illegal explosives at Waco?
3)Was Koresh sexually molesting children at Waco?
4)Did the Branch Davidians after the inital assault, come out and face their "day in court"?
5)Was the government trying to kill them or just force them to leave the compound?
6)Do you think you have the right to repulse government agents executing a legal search warrant with fire-arms?
7)Do you think as a citizen of this country you are obligated to abide by all laws?
Simple questions, yes or no will suffice but if you care to expand I will be glad to read and see what you have to say.
Any of you gonna answer all these questions or just go off on your own tyraids? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by wrag
What police? They were BATF. The same people that went after Randy Weaver.
The County Sheriff has said he regrets allowing the BATF and other Federal Government people into his County. He was of the opinion that Koresh and his people were basically harmless. Child Protective Services had been there with NO PROBLEM.
As to aluminum? It has soooooo many uses, why do you ASSUME it was for explosives? Why not for fireworks? As to the cardboard tubes? They have many uses too. Why ASSUME they were intended to be used as bomb/explosive devices?
I would say they were trying to make grenades.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html
EXPLOSIVES
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge or fusing system.
11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications.
219 Grenade Safety Pins
243 Grenade Safety Levers
Rifle Grenades
200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.
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No. Most of them are strawmen.
Why don't YOU explain this little lapse on the part of BATF?
Everything was bought and sold on a legal basis. In fact, weeks before the raid, Koresh offered the ATF the opportunity to come out to Mount Carmel and inspect the building and every single weapon we had. They refused.
If there were all those illegal items out there, why didn't the ATF accept the invitiation to come inspect?
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Originally posted by Jackal1
[B
Fair trial my aching back. Yea, I`m sure they felt certain that they would get a "fair trial" after what they had been through and had witnessed in the past concerning situations like this. :)
Their first attempt doesn`t seem to show that. :)
I think if anything is passing over anyone`s head it is the fact that after the initial "showboat" attack, they had their butts in a crack legaly and had the public eye on them. The time was spent shuffling blame and with attorneys trying to dig a way out with as much damage control, politicaly, as possible.
Hard to debate or discuss anything in a firefight. all the noise , blood and stuff sort of puts a damper on it.
There are no larger problems than rights and the operation of our country. I am sorry that you can`t see that. Maybe take off the rose colored glasses. Might clear your vision up.
I believe that`s exactly the point I made. What they didn`t fight for was to have all the effort and sacrifice thrown down the tubes.
We can start with the NRA comment here. If you actualy think that a magazine/website is all there is to the organization you are very, very misinformed. NRA is the voice, a very large voice, of it`s members. When they speak on an issue, you can bet your sweet bippy that politicians listen.
There is alot more one can do too. Starting at local , state levels all the way up the line. The trick is to make your voice heard by groups. Something that will effect votes. That`s pretty simple. you should be able to grasp it without blowing a circuit.
Automatic weapons are not illegal with a permit.
Waiting periods have no effect on anyone besides the law abiding.
Felons can and do own guns.
They are the only ones that gun laws do not effect.
Not much when it comes after the fact.
And like I said...:) David could have been taken down at the lumber yard on any given week. The rest would have been simple. There would have been no casualties as there would have been no gunfire.
:D Do tell! I think that clears a lot up then. lmao
Yep, I`m not your dad. Something we can agree on and both be thankfull for. :) [/B]
1)Oh so now a jury of your peers isn't a fair trial???
2)BATF agents killed were Conway LeBleu-age 30, of Hammond LA, Todd Mckeehan-age 28, of Mandelville, LA, Robert Williams-age 26, of Little Rock, AK, and Steven Wills-age 32, of Houston, TX. Of the sixteen (16) other agents that were injured, most were said to have been shot by automatic weapons fire . . . including that from a .50 caliber machinegun. According to BATF agent and spokesperson Sharon Wheeler, "The problem was that we were outgunned . . . and we couldn't fire randomly into the building because of women and children known to be in there."
3)Thats why you don't get in a firefight with the BATF in the first place. You go to jail, get bonded out, and have your day in court. That is how the system works. Not repulsing a LEGAL warrant with fire-arms.
4)No one is throwing any sacrifice down the tubes. That was a LEGAL warrant.
5)So like I said you just subscribe to the NRA and think that counts as keeping an eye and regulating the government. Weak. You can do a lot more than that but being as that is the first thing that came to your mind of how you "monitor and regulate" the government shows that you really are brainwashed.
6)I said "illegal for the general populace", They are you have to be specifically licensed and registered. You have no idea who a waiting peroid effects, that is plain ol NRA propaghanda you are spewing. I should have said its illegal for felons to own.
7)Mandatory evacuation call came prior to Katrina.
8)Yeah we just took down your Messiah can we come have a look around inside....I am sure the BD's would have just opened the door and let them right in. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
9)Well when you go around talking down to people by calling them son expect them to not be really interested in what you have to say. My dad taught me better manners than that, too bad yours didn't.
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Originally posted by Toad
Nope. From Waco: The Rules of Engagement
And was it 7 BD's that were convicted and given lengthy prison sentences?
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Originally posted by lazs2
For those reading my and raiders views of what happened at Waco and who have only heard what reporters a mile and a half away said about the whole thing.... I urge you to watch the two documentaries...
"Unintended Consequences" and/or "Waco, a New Revelation" both are documentaries and nothing in them (U.C. at least) has ever been refuted or proved false.. both sides are shown in a pretty even handed way.
After you have watched the documentaries I would like you to re read what raider and I have said and would very much like to hear your opinions.
I would ask you if raiders and the ATF's version of how America should be is the one you subscribe to.
lazs
Yeah but there is lots of material that is questionable in both those videos. Take the infra-red footage of the Machine-gunning of the BD's for example.
"Of course, other experts have come forward since the release of WTROE to dispute the claim that the footage shows gun fire. No so, they say. The Washington Post ran an article on April 18, 1997 "Still Burning," in which reporters tell us that they saw the FLIR tapes in the FBI's audiovisual lab, where film quality was far superior to the footage in WTROE. Of course.
After viewing the FLIR footage, The Post reporters took a one-hour excerpts to 12 FLIR experts. What did these experts find? Why, the experts disagreed. Some saw gunfire. Some saw sunlight reflections"
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/burial/doc/wtroe.html
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Is this a ninja?
(http://www.twigsdigs.com/stuff/news/aldiaz.jpg)
GASP where is his ski-mask??? lol they must have all been being used by other agents that day or he forgot it at home. :lol :lol :lol
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Originally posted by lazs2
ok raider... you say that the ATF, "F" troop as the other agencies call them, need to go undercover when they raid private citizens homes in the middle of the night with no knock warrants... You never said why... you seem to admit that they are not going up against organized crime here.
The "converted" guns. To this day not one of the "converted" guns has ever been released for examination even after congress asked for it to be done so... but... say that they were... if you saw the vid you know that Koresh told ATF agents months before that they were welcome to come over and examine all of his firearms. This is standard procedure... there were several FFL dealers in the church and they are bound by law to inspection... this is the normal way to do things.
If you saw the FLIR as did congress... you know that one thing is sure... Every single thing that the ATF and even the FBI said was a lie. They never once told the truth ever.... every tape or log or bit of evidence that was made and would prove them to be truthful or liars that was in their hands was somehow missing.... every indipendent piece of evidence contradicted everything they said. FBI "we did not fire one shot at the Davidians" cut to Flir images of FBI or delta teams under the FBI machine gunning the building while it was on fire and people were trying to escape... they machine gunned the only exit.
The ATF did go to the door... they actually drove by and when they seen karresh they opened fire and killed a 2 year old and an old man... that was the first shots fired... no warning.
The ATF fired till they ran out of bullets. they were then helpless. The davidians allowed them to take their dead and wounded... the film shows ATF with hands in the air walking backwards while other agents are carrying dead and wounded... the davidians could have slaughtered the unarmed ATF buffoons at that point. They didn't.... they kept their word.
Or maybe you didn't really see the award nominated vid? It is "Rules of Engagement" you owe it to yourself to watch it... you will find that you are in good company... the KKK offered to help the ATF.
lazs
Going Undercover. I don't expect you to grasp that concept. It something you probably detest. I see it as necessary to get some of the worst slime off our streets. ATF deals with all types of people and organizations. To say they dont do Undercover work that necesitates their being masked is ridiculous.
Yeah like Koresh is just gonna leave his converted weapons laying around when the ATF comes over for an inspection.
See the post above about the "machine gunning"
I will admit the FBI did lie and cover up some things but I still hold the Branch Davidians responsible for the outcome of that day. They could have walked out anytime and got their "day in court" but choose not too. Wrong choice.
You have any links, proof, or evidence of this ATF fired first killing a 2 year old without warning, or is that just your guess on what you would like to think occurred. If you watch that video you love so much then you would see that the ATF are easily identified as law enforcement.
Ran out of bullets, man quit smoking that stuff.
They did let them get their wounded and dead out of there but if you watch your video, you will see other agents with guns pointed at the compound during that. They were not out of bullets.
Your "documentary" is not one. It's a film that contains some documentary footage but by no means is it the final analysis of waco.
Will you answer all of those 7 questions I posted or not?
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Originally posted by Toad
No. Most of them are strawmen.
Why don't YOU explain this little lapse on the part of BATF?
If there were all those illegal items out there, why didn't the ATF accept the invitiation to come inspect?
linky?
Perhaps Koresh hadn't obtained the weapons/explosives at that time? But without a link I am just guessing.
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everybody replying about Waco and David Koresh really need to do some research on them, if they did they would find out that it is the biggest police screwup in a long time. They drummed up all this crap about Koresh molesting kids because that was the only thing they could use to against him. He can stockpile all the weapons he wants to, thats not why the ATF was really there supposedly, they were there because Koresh was molesting children and holding ppl against there will which we all know now is tottally false. The ATF drummed up all this crap so THEY could raid him and start a bunch of crap, what insued was exactly what the ATF wanted to happen a gun battle insued. Unfortunaltey there intel was way wrong and Davidians kicked there butts with shotguns and deer rifles, contray to what the ATF says, they only had a few automatic weapons. Lets get down to it tho, what did those people do wrong. If someone wants to build a compound and hole up in it I have no problem with that, and if other families want to join them then they should be able to. What I don't like is how the ATF raided them for no good reason other than they wanted some good publicity, and if you really look at what happend it was the ATF that set the fires with there tear gas, and were also responsible for keeping them inside the compound while it was on fire. In the movie "Rules of Engagement" they show excellent night vision shots of ATF officers firing auto weapons at the exits of the compound after the fires started. Also 2 days before the fires the ATF guy that was talkin gto Koresh asked him if they had fire extenguishers, to me it doesn't look like a raid so much as a hit, after all, all the people in the compound were now witnesses, can't have any of those
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I will admit the FBI did lie and cover up some things but I still hold the Branch Davidians responsible for the outcome of that day. They could have walked out anytime and got their "day in court" but choose not too. Wrong choice.
Kinda hard to leave when theres an ATF guy standing at the exit firing a sub machine gun at ya
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Originally posted by Iceman24
everybody replying about Waco and David Koresh really need to do some research on them, if they did they would find out that it is the biggest police screwup in a long time. They drummed up all this crap about Koresh molesting kids because that was the only thing they could use to against him. He can stockpile all the weapons he wants to, thats not why the ATF was really there supposedly, they were there because Koresh was molesting children and holding ppl against there will which we all know now is tottally false. The ATF drummed up all this crap so THEY could raid him and start a bunch of crap, what insued was exactly what the ATF wanted to happen a gun battle insued. Unfortunaltey there intel was way wrong and Davidians kicked there butts with shotguns and deer rifles, contray to what the ATF says, they only had a few automatic weapons. Lets get down to it tho, what did those people do wrong. If someone wants to build a compound and hole up in it I have no problem with that, and if other families want to join them then they should be able to. What I don't like is how the ATF raided them for no good reason other than they wanted some good publicity, and if you really look at what happend it was the ATF that set the fires with there tear gas, and were also responsible for keeping them inside the compound while it was on fire. In the movie "Rules of Engagement" they show excellent night vision shots of ATF officers firing auto weapons at the exits of the compound after the fires started. Also 2 days before the fires the ATF guy that was talkin gto Koresh asked him if they had fire extenguishers, to me it doesn't look like a raid so much as a hit, after all, all the people in the compound were now witnesses, can't have any of those
Did you even read the warrant? They were after illegally converted weapons and explosives.
Read the other link I posted on the expert testimony regarding the "machine gunning of the exits". The experts Disagree. What you have in WROE is 1 expert who sees it in the way they want it portrayed.
There were Survivors so sorry it wasn't a "hit"
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Originally posted by Iceman24
I will admit the FBI did lie and cover up some things but I still hold the Branch Davidians responsible for the outcome of that day. They could have walked out anytime and got their "day in court" but choose not too. Wrong choice.
Kinda hard to leave when theres an ATF guy standing at the exit firing a sub machine gun at ya
Thank god someone here holds the BD's to some personal responsibility.
Yeah maybe they should have come out earlier instead of waiting on Koresh to finish translating the seals.
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Originally posted by Raider179
linky?
Perhaps Koresh hadn't obtained the weapons/explosives at that time? But without a link I am just guessing.
Hardly.
Check out Treasure Department Report 186-188.
c. Koresh Invited BATF to Inspect Weapons in 1992
The Treasury report alleges: "During the compliance inspection of Henry McMahon. . .Special Agent Aguilera deliberately led McMahon to believe that the inspection was a routine administrative inquiry." (TDR:186-188) However, it fails to mention McMahon's version of the visit. Because Aguilera and another BATF agent were asking Henry McMahon a lot of questions about Koresh, he immediately called Koresh to inform him. According to McMahon, "He said, `If there's a problem, tell them to come out here. If they want to see my guns, they're more than welcome.' So I walked back in the room, holding the cordless phone and said, `I've got (Koresh) on the phone. If you'd like to go out there and see those guns, you're more than welcome to.' They looked at each other and Aguilera got real paranoid, shaking his head and whispering, `No, no!' And so I went back to the phone and told David they wouldn't be coming out." [95]
After Koresh's attorney Dick DeGuerin mentioned the incident during a media panel in September, 1993, reporters from two Houston papers contacted Jack Killorin, Chief of BATF's Public Affairs. He told one reporter he was not surprised that a federal agent rejected an offer to inspect weapons. "The preferred method by the law is going with the standard of getting a warrant before entering a home. We execute such warrants." [96] He told the other reporter, "Koresh's learning of the investigation in July 1992 had no effect on the raid or the resulting standoff between agents and cult members." [97]
Footnotes in quote:
95. James L. Pate, "Waco: Behind the Cover-Up," Soldier of Fortune, November, 1993, pgs. 36-41, 71-72.
96. Marc Smith, "Agent allegedly refused Koresh's offer," Houston Chronicle, September 11, 1993.
97. Associated Press, "Gun Dealer Alerted Koresh to ATF Probe, Lawyer Says," Houston Post, September 11, 1993
You're deluding yourself. The BATF royall screwed up. But defend them all you like.
While you're at it, defend the killing of Randy Weaver's wife too. You won't look any worse for that than you do now.
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Originally posted by Toad
You're deluding yourself. The BATF royall screwed up. But defend them all you like.
While you're at it, defend the killing of Randy Weaver's wife too. You won't look any worse for that than you do now.
That is interesting. Maybe they were already planning the raid at that point and were trying to not tip their hand.
No one is saying There weren't mistakes made but I do not place the majority of the blame on the ATF. To me it lies solely in the people who fired on ATF agents executing a LEGAL warrant.
Personal responsibility. Then holing up for 2 months when they could have walked out at anytime and had "their day in court".
Sorry I do not have any respect for people who do not obey/respect the law and resist it with violence. You defend the BD's and your telling me I look bad. LOL
If you think about how many no-knock warrants are executed each year that end in no bloodshed how you can take 1 incident and make it out to be total distrust of Feds is beyond me. I have no problem with the FEDs using force to quell insurrections such as that.
Any of you gonna answer my 7 questions?
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my whole point here is that if I wanted to build a compound and put a bunch of guns in it then I should be able to without the ATF flying choppers over my place and firing M60's at me, after all it is my constitutional right to bear arms and form a militia. I'm athiest so I believe the 1st Jesus has just as much credibility as he does lol, they're both the same, phonies, and thats what got the ATF pissed off, he said he was Jesus. So I guess as long as I don't claim to be Jesus then it is ok to hole up in a compound somewhere. If I remember correctly our president says he talks to god everyday before he makes decisions. Its not him talkin to god that has me worried its that god is talkin back, of coarse that could just be cheney in his ear lol I just thinks its funny as a society how we choose who to believe in and who not to, for instance George Bush talks to god then he's a good leader, if David Koresh talks to god then he is crazy. All I can say is that if Koresh was right and he was Jesus then some people are gonna be in trouble. Look what we supposedly did with the 1st Jesus, killed him lol. So far you religous nuts out there aren't doing too well with gods lol Anybody that claims to be Jesus has been killed on the spot no questions asked lol. 1 last thought, if they really wanted to bring David Koresh out and put him in jail, why didn't they just put big fence with razor wire around the compund and say ok now your in jail, it was that simple, case closed everybody go home. But no the ATF wanted to show off, and they were pissed off because they just got the crap beat outta them so they were lookin for revenge. This didn't happen because of David Koresh, this happened because a bunch of a bunch of people in Waco started griping about this guy that was runnin around sayin he was Jesus, nothing more, all the sex crimes were drummed up by the FBI and ATF not 1 was true. To me this is the biggest screwup of any government agency of all time, and the fact that 1/2 the ATF officers that were there state they were out of line, and the other 1/2 say they wern't just shows the rift that is in that ageny
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If you saw the FLIR as did congress... you know that one thing is sure... Every single thing that the ATF and even the FBI said was a lie. They never once told the truth ever.... every tape or log or bit of evidence that was made and would prove them to be truthful or liars that was in their hands was somehow missing.... every indipendent piece of evidence contradicted everything they said. FBI "we did not fire one shot at the Davidians" cut to Flir images of FBI or delta teams under the FBI machine gunning the building while it was on fire and people were trying to escape... they machine gunned the only exit.
very well said
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maybe and maybe the ATF shouldn't have lit them on fire and then blocked the exits with machine gun toting officers lol. My whole point to this is that the ATF goofed this all up and it could have been have been handled peacefully at numerous different times, the ATF wanted to get on tv, thats it plain and simple and they were going to no matter what. If the ATF wanted to end it peacefully why did choppers fly over the BD compound before the ATF raided and opened fire with M60's, thats the whole argument who shot 1st. Theres allot of info coming out now that says the ATF choppers opened up with M60's. I'm a law abiding citizen but I don't care who you are, if you come to my house and start shooting at me, I will return fire whether I'm in the right or wrong I will try and save my life. I personally don't like the guy and think the world is probably better off without him and his BD's but what I can't get outta my head is how the ATF screwed it all up and is lying about everything that happened. They new what was going to happen, they wanted it to go down just like it did, or they would have grabbed him at the lumbar yard ;) I just don't see how we can construe in this day and age anything that David Koresh did as illegal, was he a nut job, sure. was he FOS, sure. was he doing anything illegal, no not really.
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raider... your lack of understanding about firearms continues to amaze me. You claim to be a firearms expert... Have you ever even owned a firearm? What was it and what happened to it? You must at least realize the there is no possible way to tell if a bullet came from a semi auto, bolt action or converted gun right? well.... you do now.
first of all... watch the documentaries... everyone agrees that the ATF fired first.... then... they emptied their guns into the church through the windows and doors when they got shot back at... they literaly ran out of ammo and surrendered to the davidians... they gave up... the dividians allowed them to take their dead and wounded and retreat... they could have killed every single unarmed (no ammo) ninja but they didn't.
The warrrant... well... actually the warant is 2/3 about child abuse.... nothing to do with ATF.... the rest.... is ... well...about nothing since they have the wrong number for the offense on the warrant.
The ATF called the press to watch em make a big bust... they chased off the press when they got their butts kicked and.... they "lost" five tapes from five different cameras that would easily show who fired first.
As for how I believe.... I believe as the courts found.... that the davidians were innocent of murder... that they had a right, a duty, to shoot back at unidentified ninjas shooting up their home. Not one Davidian was charged with murder or shooting at federal officers.
To this day... the congressional investigators request for the "machine guns" for their experts to examine has not been honored... no proof of any machine gun has been shown by federal authorities. They have refused any attempt to examine the weapons in question.
but... say korresh had a converted semi auto or two... And... since he didn't pay the $200 each to regester em....
Just how many children do you think should be killed for each $200 uncollected tax raider? Is 4 or 5 a good number? maybe 20? how bout suspicion of a machine gun? that should be good for at least a couple of children mowed down by ATF "legal" (and very real) machine guns.
The crying ATF agent who was pleading with congress in the documentary to understand that his men were outgunned....that they only had 9 mm pistols against "223" assault weapons.... and then the video of his men pouring full auto fire into the walls and windows of the building with full auto M16's (machine guns) and Mp5's (sub machine guns) is sickening.
But... I would settle for... every single person caught in a lie in that hearing....I would settle for them being fired on the spot.
Watch the documentaries and see if you don't agree.
lazs
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at one point in the negotiations the negotiator admits that helicopters were firing into the building...
worse.... in one place in the negotiations.... the negotiator tells the davidians that if they try to come out and surrender they will be killed.. that might explain some of the reluctance.
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I guess what pisses me off so much about this is the same thing most of us or mad at our government, there is no accountability for anything done ever, and its not just in the white house. Our government as a whole has this real bad " I don't know " complex, its getting rediculous. Who screwed this up, " I don't know" is the only answer I keep hearing. Maybe its time that this country makes some changes, and #1 is that if our government or an agency in our government gets asked a question, how about changing the rules so they have to answer. I like Bush's reply as to why he wouldn't talk to the 9/11 committy, " Talk to them, sure I'll visit with them, off the record" " Mr. President why won't you answer any questions on the record" " Because we can't let terrorists learn how we collect information" I mean come on, this is the biggest pile of crap ever, hell even clinton answered to the comittee about him getting a BJ from Monica Lewinsky. Just sitting here at work thinking of all the different ways I could get fired, now if I was a politician or in a government agency like the ATF or FBI, I really think it would be impossible to get fired, I mean how bad do you have to srewup to get fired. Its like we went around the country and took all the F ups and put them in charge, not just Bush, but every agency. Look at whats goin on in NO right now, no accountability, nobody's fault. Hell at least Fema actually fired someone, that has to be the 1st person fired from a government job in 4 years
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but.... back to the book... I was unable to find any passage in the book that anyone could say that the author was advocating or glorifying any kind of racism.
Perhaps one of you liberal types could show me.... I admit that I have a really hard time recognizing what a lot of you consider "racism" these days.
lazs
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Originally posted by Raider179
That is interesting. Maybe they were already planning the raid at that point and were trying to not tip their hand.
[/b]
ROFLMAO! What need is there for a raid when you have been invited in to inspect?
No one is saying There weren't mistakes made but I do not place the majority of the blame on the ATF. To me it lies solely in the people who fired on ATF agents executing a LEGAL warrant.
[/b]
Really? Well, what if the ATF has turned down an invitation to inspect the whole operation and chooses to attack with ATF agents firing first? It hasn't been proven that the BD's fired first you know.
From PBS:
Who fired first on that day, the Branch Davidians or the ATF?
The question of who fired first is in dispute. ATF agents who participated in the raid have testified in court and at a congressional hearing that the Branch Davidians fired the first shots. Right after the raid, however, one ATF agent told an investigator that a fellow agent may have shot first, when he killed a dog outside the compound. The agent later retracted the statement, saying that the Branch Davidians had initiated the gunfire. Surviving Branch Davidians have maintained that they did not shoot their guns until they were fired upon by federal authorities.
Sorry I do not have any respect for people who do not obey/respect the law and resist it with violence. You defend the BD's and your telling me I look bad. LOL
[/b]
You look bad because you are defending an ATF operation that spun out of control and needlessly killed 80 people. In fact, you look REALLY bad.
The BD's were surrounded. What immediate threat to their neighbors, their state or their nation did they represent? Why the need to take them out using force? They would have given up sooner or later.
If you think about how many no-knock warrants are executed each year that end in no bloodshed how you can take 1 incident
[/b]
You've been shown it isn't "one incident". BATF and IRS are two governmental agencies that routinely trample the Constitution.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Thank god someone here holds the BD's to some personal responsibility.
Yeah maybe they should have come out earlier instead of waiting on Koresh to finish translating the seals.
ROFLMAO
That`s your own quote your praising there. :rofl
See below.
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Originally posted by Raider179
I will admit the FBI did lie and cover up some things but I still hold the Branch Davidians responsible for the outcome of that day. They could have walked out anytime and got their "day in court" but choose not too. Wrong choice.
?
A truely classic moment in O`club history. :)
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Originally posted by Raider179
9)Well when you go around talking down to people by calling them son expect them to not be really interested in what you have to say. My dad taught me better manners than that, too bad yours didn't. [/B]
You ever been to Texas?
The younguns are called son, hoss, youngun, etc, etc. It`s not an insult there slick. Yea that`s another one.
Well, you seem to be wall `o texting the same stuff over and over, whether it fits the bill or not.
Not really important since you let the proverbial cat out of the bag. After that it`s pretty clear where the slanted, ingrained view is coming from and pretty well wraps it up for you.
Have a goodun SON. :)
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Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Drugs..
Should be the name of an american country store, not a gawdamned american federal agency.
The american government seems to continue it's plodding course away from being 'protector of freedom' to being 'protector of the many sundry and varied american government bureaucracies'.
This country is becoming increasingly populated by pussified and pacified lotus eaters that gleefully contemplate empowering an already stupefyingly corrupt and ineffective ‘homeland security’ apparatus that continues to demonstrate it’s inability to even identify a national disaster. If it ain’t color coded, it ain’t a threat.
After billions spent, more agency’s and bureaucracies created, folks like Raider would have you believe that government ain’t the bad guys because it’s the American government that’s being discussed.
Any agency that decides that it’s interests are better served by usurping an individuals rights in lieu of making it’s particular flavor of domestic policy dominate over the constitution is not a ‘friendly’ government agency if you are a defender of the Constitution. If you take your oath seriously and are anywhere above a vegetative state, the actions of some of 'our' government agencies would necessarily have to convince a sane man that we are indeed in deep, deep doggie doo with respect to our rights as free citizens.
Have we reached the cusp where the real definition of an American Patriot is somebody that decides to defend his constitutional rights by the same ‘whatever’s necessary’ rule book the bureaucracies use, even when that defense runs violently contrary to what the local liberal democratic PC Pussifed Suburban Sissies mandate in the media and Hollywood?
For the pussified populace out there, I can do no more than offer this:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
I’m with Toad.. glad to be old, so I don’t have to see the end of the era of the empowered American Citizen and the creation of the powerless American Subject in it’s wake, for I will not outlive the suspension of the constitution by more than a few days, at best.
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Originally posted by lazs2
raider... your lack of understanding about firearms continues to amaze me. You claim to be a firearms expert... Have you ever even owned a firearm? What was it and what happened to it? You must at least realize the there is no possible way to tell if a bullet came from a semi auto, bolt action or converted gun right? well.... you do now.
first of all... watch the documentaries... everyone agrees that the ATF fired first.... then... they emptied their guns into the church through the windows and doors when they got shot back at... they literaly ran out of ammo and surrendered to the davidians... they gave up... the dividians allowed them to take their dead and wounded and retreat... they could have killed every single unarmed (no ammo) ninja but they didn't.
The warrrant... well... actually the warant is 2/3 about child abuse.... nothing to do with ATF.... the rest.... is ... well...about nothing since they have the wrong number for the offense on the warrant.
The ATF called the press to watch em make a big bust... they chased off the press when they got their butts kicked and.... they "lost" five tapes from five different cameras that would easily show who fired first.
As for how I believe.... I believe as the courts found.... that the davidians were innocent of murder... that they had a right, a duty, to shoot back at unidentified ninjas shooting up their home. Not one Davidian was charged with murder or shooting at federal officers.
To this day... the congressional investigators request for the "machine guns" for their experts to examine has not been honored... no proof of any machine gun has been shown by federal authorities. They have refused any attempt to examine the weapons in question.
but... say korresh had a converted semi auto or two... And... since he didn't pay the $200 each to regester em....
Just how many children do you think should be killed for each $200 uncollected tax raider? Is 4 or 5 a good number? maybe 20? how bout suspicion of a machine gun? that should be good for at least a couple of children mowed down by ATF "legal" (and very real) machine guns.
The crying ATF agent who was pleading with congress in the documentary to understand that his men were outgunned....that they only had 9 mm pistols against "223" assault weapons.... and then the video of his men pouring full auto fire into the walls and windows of the building with full auto M16's (machine guns) and Mp5's (sub machine guns) is sickening.
But... I would settle for... every single person caught in a lie in that hearing....I would settle for them being fired on the spot.
Watch the documentaries and see if you don't agree.
lazs
I didn't claim expert status I leave that to you. I said I have extensive fire-arms training. No, I don't own. I don't feel the need to carry.
The weapons were converted from semi to fully. That is illegal.
Disagree about the ammo. If you can show me a link that says otherwise I will concede the point but the video's I have seen show armed guns up ATF agents covering the "retreat".
The warrant is about Illegally modified fire-arms and 90 pounds of AL metal.
Somehow I doubt even an inspection by an expert would convince you the guns from waco were in fact converted. You would probably just say oh the fbi did it before handing the guns to the expert or some other moon landing conspiracy.
You can't put a dollar amount on children's lives.
The people at Mt. Carmel lost their lives because they decided to play hardball with the Federal Government. It's that simple. It should have ended after the initial assault. INSTEAD the BD's decided they are gonna stay put for 2+ months. They should have and could have come out during any of that time. They choose not to, and they choose badly.
By the way some people did leave prior to the fire. To bad more of the parents weren't smart enough to realize it was a dangerous situation for their kids and send them outside.
http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoone.html
Date Departed
February 28 4 children
March 1 10 children
March 2 4 children
2 adults
March 3 1 child
March 4 1 child
March 5 1 child
March 12 2 adults
March 19 2 adults
March 21 7 adults
March 23 1 adult
TOTALS: 21 Children
14 Adults
Additionally, 9 adults left the compound during the fire on April 19. Therefore, 44 people (21 children and 23 adults) left the compound at one time or another during the standoff.
"By the time the FBI arrived on the scene during the afternoon of February 28, the Branch Davidians believed that the ATF had fulfilled Koresh's prophesies, and had signalled the imminent end of the world. "
Those who stayed had NO intention of ever leaving they were there to die. To be part of the fulfillment of Koresh's propehcy about the end of the world.
"The prosecutors had the responsibility to preserve and develop evidence for the eventual prosecution of the Branch Davidians on the original weapons charges, as well as on homicide and assault charges resulting from the shoot-out on the 28th. Also, the prosecutors had to develop a legal strategy to separate those individuals who would be criminally charged from those individuals who were merely witnesses, and to ensure that all were either held in jail or released with sufficient guarantees to ensure their appearances at trial"
"At approximately 4:55 p.m., several ATF agents were ambushed by three individuals as the agents crossed a field near the compound. The ATF agents returned the gunfire, killing one individual and capturing another. The third individual escaped. The person who died was later identified (following the recovery of his body on March 3) as Michael Schroeder. The person arrested was Norman Washington Allison (a/k/a Delroy Nash), and the person who escaped was Robert Kendrick. Kendrick was arrested several days later. All three individuals were Branch Davidians who had been at another location called the "Mag Bag"(4) and were attempting to shoot their way into the compound. "
Trying to shoot their way into the compound. Yeah bunch of real law-abiding upright citizens we got here. :rolleyes:
"At 2:29 p.m., Koresh demanded that he be able to broadcast his religious teachings over the radio before he, or any one, would come out of the compound."
At 8:55 p.m. the first two children came out of the compound. They were Angelica Sonobe, age 6, and Crystal Sonobe, age 3.
At 9:42 p.m., two more children came out. They were Renae studmuffinan, age 6, and Neharah studmuffinan, age 4. Negotiations continued with no additional progress that night.
Koresh complained bitterly when he realized that his telephone lines had been restricted, permitting him to dial out only to the negotiators. At 5:52 p.m., Koresh warned that if the telephone lines were not immediately reopened, the government would be responsible for the deaths of the children.
After many angry threats, and after repeated efforts of the negotiators to calm him down, Koresh finally calmed down and agreed to resume sending children out.
Koresh used himself, others, and the children as bargaing chips so that he could broadcast his "religious message". Helluva guy you are defending.
"As part of delivering his message, Koresh agreed that if a taped message of his was played nationwide, everyone, including Koresh himself, would come out. "
Again using himself and the children and the other adults to gain leverage in a dangerous situation so he could "spread his message".
"The audiotape Koresh made was approximately one hour long. CBN reiterated its agreement to broadcast the tape unedited; however, Craig Smith, the host of the show, made it clear to the FBI that the broadcast was contingent on Koresh's agreeing in advance to surrender immediately after the tape was played. At approximately 10:30 a.m., after listening to the tape, the FBI determined the tape was not satisfactory, because Koresh had failed to state clearly his intentions to surrender. At 11:24 a.m., the negotiators contacted Koresh to discuss the omission of any surrender language on the tape. Koresh agreed to read the following preamble on the telephone so that it could be recorded by the FBI on the audiotape to be broadcast: "I agree that upon the broadcasting of this tape, I will immediately come out peacefully with all my people."
"Meanwhile, at 1:30 p.m., the tape began to be broadcast over the radio. Between 1:30 p.m. and 2:47 p.m.., the negotiators worked out the logistics for the pending surrender with both Schneider and Koresh. It was agreed that Koresh would come out first on the stretcher carried by four males. Koresh was to be accompanied by an unknown number of women and children. Steve Schneider was to remain in the compound to coordinate the exit of the remaining individuals once the first group had been removed from the scene. The plan was that Schneider would send out one person approximately every two to three minutes. "
-
"By 3:00 p.m., vehicles were in place to handle the movement of the people coming out, laboratory personnel were standing by to process the crime scene, and no additional problems were anticipated. Between 3:00 p.m. and 4:45 p.m., several individuals, including Koresh and Schneider,.spoke to the negotiators advising them that surrender was imminent and that people were in the process of saying goodbye to Koresh and to each other. At 4:47 p.m., the FBI was advised by an individual in the compound that Koresh was preaching to the group and leading them in prayer. Steve Schneider came on the line at 5:45 p.m. and, in an obvious attempt to delay, began to preach and read the Bible. At 5:52 p.m., the negotiators interrupted Schneider's preaching and demanded that they go forward with the plan to surrender. Schneider relayed this demand to Koresh, and at 5:58 p.m., he informed the negotiators that Koresh had said to tell them that God had spoken to him and had told him to wait."
Ohh I see now, God told him to not surrender. lmao
"According to one individual who left the compound during the standoff, there was never any plan to surrender on March 2. Instead, a number of individuals were to come outside with Koresh, who would be on the stretcher. After exiting, they would blow themselves up with some type of explosive device. Afterwards, all the remaining people inside would either be killed or would kill themselves. On the afternoon of March 1, everyone said goodbye to Koresh, then were sent to the chapel to pray. A short while later, according to the individual, Koresh cancelled the plan, claiming that they were not praying correctly and that God had told him to wait."
I'm not even gonna go through more of the Negotiation tapes. That should be suffiecent. Plenty of opportunities to come out peacefully but the Davidians decided to stay there. And I am convinced they would not be taken out alive.
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Originally posted by lazs2
at one point in the negotiations the negotiator admits that helicopters were firing into the building...
worse.... in one place in the negotiations.... the negotiator tells the davidians that if they try to come out and surrender they will be killed.. that might explain some of the reluctance.
Read what I posted above.
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Originally posted by Toad
ROFLMAO! What need is there for a raid when you have been invited in to inspect?
[/b]
Really? Well, what if the ATF has turned down an invitation to inspect the whole operation and chooses to attack with ATF agents firing first? It hasn't been proven that the BD's fired first you know.
From PBS:
[/b]
You look bad because you are defending an ATF operation that spun out of control and needlessly killed 80 people. In fact, you look REALLY bad.
The BD's were surrounded. What immediate threat to their neighbors, their state or their nation did they represent? Why the need to take them out using force? They would have given up sooner or later.
[/b]
You've been shown it isn't "one incident". BATF and IRS are two governmental agencies that routinely trample the Constitution. [/B]
If someone knows your coming do you think they will just leave alll their illegal guns and explosives out so you can find them? I would probably hide them somewhere off property and say hey come have a look. lol
I didnt say BD's fired first I said they shot at law enforcement which they did.
Read what I posted about Koresh surrendering. LIke I said I don't think they had any intention of coming out alive.
Why the hurry? Why wait? Those people were not hostages or were they? In which case add kidnapping and hostage taking to Koresh and Davidians list of offenses.
It is willful disrepect and contempt for our laws that caused Waco. Not a fight over Constitution.
I havent been shown anything more than WACO. Someone mentioned Ruby Ridge and that is the only incident I see. So pehaps you would like to expand. I also see you ignore the # of safe no-knock warrants that are executed each year vs. the number of mistakes that end in deaths. It's a very very low percentage.
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80 people died in a raid to provide TV exposure for BATF so they could get increased funding.
Your sad belief in the validity of incompetently executed "no knock" raids shows how little you value the 4th Amendment.
Think of this: Put the BD's under visual surveillance. Accept their offer to inspect. IF they attempted to move prohibited items, you could catch them with those out of the compound and away from the children.
Your willingness to forgive this slaughter is disgusting. There were any number of ways to accomplish the arrest of Koresh and the inspection of that compound WITHOUT attacking it with machine guns, helos and tanks.
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Originally posted by Toad
80 people died in a raid to provide TV exposure for BATF so they could get increased funding.
Your sad belief in the validity of incompetently executed "no knock" raids shows how little you value the 4th Amendment.
Think of this: Put the BD's under visual surveillance. Accept their offer to inspect. IF they attempted to move prohibited items, you could catch them with those out of the compound and away from the children.
Your willingness to forgive this slaughter is disgusting. There were any number of ways to accomplish the arrest of Koresh and the inspection of that compound WITHOUT attacking it with machine guns, helos and tanks.
No, 4 people died in the initial raid. 76 lives did not have to be lost.
I value the 4th. That is why they had a LEGAL WARRANT!!! That is not a violation of the 4th. This is not a constitutional issue.
Ok the feds plan might not have been the best, but we don't know how the BD's might have reacted to the ATF coming to search. That is all pure speculation that they would have not have shed blood when they found out Koresh was in custody.
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:lol Nice purse swinging thread
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Your heroes at work:
[/quote]Monique Montgomery (http://elfie.org/~croaker/monique.html)
Ms. Montgomery was alone, asleep in her bed at the time of the raid. The BATF "entered" her home. Upon awaking, the woman armed herself with a legally owned 9mm handgun she kept by her bedside. The BATF claims they advised her four times that they were federal agents in her home with a search warrant, and to drop the gun. They allege that she continued to hold the gun on them and that they had no choice but to fire. She was struck by four 9mm bullets, survived and has since been released from the hos pital. Her handgun was loaded, but not fired. No narcotics and no other firearms were found in her home.
A BATF agent who was at the scene, Gerry (or Jerry) Miller, claims the warrant was executed completely within BATF policys and guidelines. On July 22nd, when asked if any charges have been filed against the woman, Agent Miller answered that none were yet but there was a possibility assault charges would later be filed against the woman.
He was asked how much time elapsed between the "entry" and the shots being fired, and said he couldn't say but that he would characterize it as a very short period of time.
Loiue Katona (http://www.rkba.org/nra/meeting.95.metaksa)
The heart of NRA beats in a family in Ohio, where the bread winner is a successful businessman, civic leader, family man and part-time police officer.
When agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms raided the home of Louie and Kimberly Katona, they did more than confiscate all his firearms.
During the raid, an agent shoved wife Kimberly into a concrete wall.
She said she felt something tear, but it was more than the fabric of her rights.
She was pregnant, she began bleeding and soon lost what was going to be their second child.
In court, BATF charged that Louie Katona falsified forms when he
purchased those firearms.
The judge not only threw out the case.
He actually asked BATF, where's the beef?
The Katona family won't take it sitting down. They're fighting back,pressing a civil suit against the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Sina Brush & Harry Lumplugh (http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/ray/edrt050100.htm)
Sina Brush:September, 1991: Sixty DEA agents, accompanied by BATF, the National Guard, (and the U. S. Forest Service for heaven's sake!) and anyone else needed to subdue these "dangerous criminals" descended upon the home of Mrs. Sina Brush. They held her and her daughter, in their underwear, at a kneel while they searched the house for drugs, none of which were found.
Harry Lumplugh:Then there was the raid on the home of Harry and Theresa Lumplugh in Pennsylvalia. The BATF sent 15 to 20 men against this couple who were forced, at gunpoint, to open safes and hand over private papers. Agents kicked their dangerous cat to death. Again: no drugs and no charges.
ATF Rips Off Another Gun Dealer in Arizona, Confiscates 274 guns and 3,000 Form 4473's, Without making an official arrest or even filing charges (http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=834)
Keep defending this out of control agency.
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Originally posted by Raider179
No, 4 people died in the initial raid. 76 lives did not have to be lost.
Wrong again. NO lives had to be lost.
BATF incompentence killed all 80.
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Originally posted by Toad
Wrong again. NO lives had to be lost.
BATF incompentence killed all 80.
No people shooting at Law Enforcement Agents performing a LEGAL WARRANT execution got them killed.
Do you say the warrant was Illegal Toad? Or do you just think it was a bad plan?
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Originally posted by Toad
Your heroes at work:
Monique Montgomery (http://elfie.org/~croaker/monique.html)
Loiue Katona (http://www.rkba.org/nra/meeting.95.metaksa)
Sina Brush & Harry Lumplugh (http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/ray/edrt050100.htm)
ATF Rips Off Another Gun Dealer in Arizona, Confiscates 274 guns and 3,000 Form 4473's, Without making an official arrest or even filing charges (http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=834)
Keep defending this out of control agency. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not saying they don't mistakes, they do. But put those numbers up against the number of times they perform these searches and I think you will realize it's not systemic. Hell those 3 you mention span the last 15 years.
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Another valiant effort...............
-------------------------------------------------------
Colorado Springs FFL Crackdown
From: crl@craycos.com (Curtis)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:25:58 -0700
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation
Last year the BATF in Colorado Springs decided that they were going to check out all of the Federally licensed dealers of firearms in town. The media reported it as a no big deal inspection, it actually turned out to be a strong arm tactic from the BATF t o remove as many licenses as possible.
The only way I know about this is a friend of mine was the recipient of these tactics. He is a small time dealer that makes only enough profit to fund his personal collection as well as target and hunting costs. He has never been suspected of anything ill egal and has no criminal record of anykind.
He had been recording his sales for years and paying all necessary taxes on business to all agencies. He maintained the current laws on gun dealing and followed them. He had started a small business and was paying the necessary taxes to operate a small bu siness.
They came to his house to to inspect his records looking more like commandos than government workers. On inspection of his records they found that a person who bought a pistol from him 6 months ago had mistakenly entered the current date instead of their birthdate. They told him they would charge him with saling a firearm to a minor since he had sold a pistol to a 6 month old child. He offered to have the person come over who had purchased the pistol to straighten out the paperwork. They said "fine", then they pulled their trump card.
"There's this little matter of a zoning violation. You have been operating a business from a residence not zoned for that". Forget that the city, state and county had accepted his small business tax money for years and not complained once.
Then they gave him **THE** option.
"You can fight us in court and risk 6 months in jail and $5,000 for every day you operated a business in a area not zoned for that, **OR** you can surrender your Federal Firearm License and we will forget the whole thing.
When an ordinary citizen with little financial resources is offered an option like that from the federal government it's not very hard to figure out which option he chose.
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Only 80 lives? A mere "pittance" - :lol;)
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Originally posted by Raider179
No people shooting at Law Enforcement Agents performing a LEGAL WARRANT execution got them killed.
Do you say the warrant was Illegal Toad? Or do you just think it was a bad plan?
I'm saying
1) BATF failed to pursue all the options to arrest Koresh and/or inspect the "compound". There was no need for the major force raid at the time it was executed.
2) The raid was botched beyond belief. There are some statements that US military forces were involved which would be a singular violation of the Constitution. I will do some more checking on that.
Perhaps if they HAD performed an inspection, they'd have had a better idea of the layout and possible defenses of the area before the raid. As it was, they got their own officers killed in a bungled, incompetent raid.
BATF has a history of screwing up. You just need to open your eyes. They are probably the worst of the armed Federal agencies.
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Well..at least thanks to the BATF we are safe from the attack of the vitamin ales. :)
------------------------------------------------------
May 1994 issue of REASON Magazine, Pages 25 through 29
By Jacob Sullum
Even before Waco, people in the booze
business were afraid of the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
A 12-ounce bottle of Grant's Scottish Ale contains 170 percent of the U.S. Recommended Daily Allowance for vitamin B-12. I can legally tell you this because I don't make beer for a living. But Bert Grant, creator of Grant's Scottish Ale, can't.
In January 1993, a few months after Grant and his wife, Sherry, started putting nutritional information on six-pack cartons of the beer, David Dunbar, an inspector with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, visited their Yakima, Washington, brewery. Dunbar told them that Yakima Brewing & Malting is not allowed to inform consumers about the vitamins and minerals in a bottle of beer. This surprised the Grants, because neither the Federal Alcohol Administration Act nor the regulations issued under it address nutritional information. The regulations do, however, forbid false or misleading claims about "curative or therapeutic effects," and the BATF cited a 1954 regulatory interpretation that says "any reference to vitamin content in the advertising of malt beverages would mislead a substantial number of persons to believe that consumption of the product would produce curative or therapeutic effects."
The Grants had to stop using the Scottish Ale six-pack cartons and drop plans to put nutritional information on the packaging of their other beers. But the rule seemed silly to them. So Sherry Grant wrote a press release about the BATF's order and sent it to some trade journals. "We felt it should be brought out, because we wanted the law changed," Bert explains. The story eventually attracted attention from the mainstream press, including Playboy and radio commentator Charles Osgood, as well as industry publications. The coverage was sympathetic to the Grants and critical of the BATF. An editorial in the Vancouver Columbian, for example, called the BATF policy "hypocritical on its face" and argued that "more information, not less, is the way to encourage better choices."
"Then the coincidences started," Bert recalls. Dunbar, the BATF agent, came back several times to look at the Grants' records and grill the couple and their employees, spending a total of three weeks at the brewery. She says Dunbar, who declines to comment on the case, had an intimidating, confrontational manner. "It scared me, because in the back of [my] mind, there was always this picture of Waco," she says. "And then I got really, really angry, because I thought, 'This is wrong. I should not have to be afraid of my own government."'
During 1993, Bert estimates, the Grants had to devote about a fifth of their time to dealing with one regulatory problem after another. Among other things, the BATF said they had to get the label for Grant's Celtic Ale reapproved because of a change in color. And the bureau decided that Grant's Spiced Ale, which the brewery had been producing since 1985, had a "frivolous" name that required a generic description - "A Fermented Ale with Added Spices and Honey" - in letters as big as the name.
Worst of all, the alchemists at the BATF transformed Grant's Cider, which the company had been producing since 1984, into a wine by bureaucratic edict. The financial consequences of that trick are serious. Under federal law, hard cider is exempt from excise taxes, but wine is taxed at $1.07 a gallon. The BATF claims that the Grants owe back taxes on the cider-cum-wine for nine years, plus the annual occupational tax for wineries, plus interest, plus penalties.
The bureau has not yet informed the Grants what all that will come to, but it could be hundreds of thousands of dollars. For a small business like Yakima Brewing & Malting, which produces about 9,000 barrels a year, that would be a significant hit. And the tax liability is in addition to some $100,000 in legal fees and lost sales that Bert estimates the hassles with the BATF have already cost the brewery.
The Grants feel they are being punished for criticizing the bureau's censorship. "It doesn't matter what you do for a living," Sherry says. "You still have a right to free speech. And I shouldn't have to worry about the government coming down on me for what I think or say."
The BATF denies any link between the Grant's recent troubles and the conflict over nutritional information. "There is no conspiracy," says Les Stanford, a BATF spokesman in Washington, D.C. "There is no connection between the two issues." Whether or not the BATF decided to retaliate against the Grants, their case illustrates the arbitrary power that the agency wields over brewers, vintners, and distillers. Entrepreneurs like the Grants operate in an environment of uncertainty created by vague regulations, inconsistent enforcement, unpredictable policy changes, and capricious decisions that apply retroactively. Long before the Waco fiasco made the BATF notorious, producers of alcoholic beverages had reason to fear the bureau.
"If you know how the average citizen feels about the IRS, the industry is in even greater fear of the ATF, because they have such awesome power over their very existence," says Jerry Mead, editor and publisher of The Wine Trader. "They can yank your license. You can appeal, but so what? You're out of business....If you piss them off, they can come in and audit your books. Even if they don't find anything wrong, they totally disrupt your [operation] for days, sometimes weeks, going through everything. And the ATF probably could find something wrong with just about anybody's operation, if they were really looking."
In the case of Yakima Brewing & Malting, practices the BATF had known about for years suddenly and inexplicably became violations. The bureau had never before complained, for example, that Grant's Spiced Ale, a name that seems straightforward and descriptive, was in fact "frivolous." Furthermore, as Sherry Grant notes, the BATF continues to allow the use of many fanciful beer names-including Pete's Wicked Ale, Labatt's Blue, and Blackened Voodoo-without demanding special explanations on the labels. "Tell me they're not picking on us," she says.
This combination of fuzzy rules and selective enforcement is an invitation to abuse. While ostensibly pursuing its regulatory mission, the BATF can punish businesses for criticizing the bureau or offending the wrong people. In 1992, for example, the BATF threatened to rescind its approval of labeling for Crazy Horse malt liquor after then Surgeon General Antonia Novello called the name "an insensitive and malicious marketing ploy" aimed at appealing to Native Americans. Since the bureau is not supposed to pass judgment on the propriety of target marketing, it cited a different concern: the use of three phrases on the label-"Fine Blend," "Lot No. 0690711," and "Registered at the Brewery" that it considered confusing or misleading. These phrases had apparently escaped the BATF's attention when it approved the label two months before.
A similar reversal involved PowerMaster, a malt liquor that the BATF approved in 1991. Like many other malt-liquor brands, PowerMaster was aimed mainly at inner-city blacks, but it attracted special attention because it had a higher alcohol content than its competitors. After Novello called the product "socially irresponsible" and anti-alcohol activists expressed their outrage, the bureau decided that the word Power was a veiled reference to alcoholic strength, which brewers are not allowed to advertise. It instructed G. Heileman Brewing Co. to remove the word from the product's name. The brewer, which had spent more than $2 million on research and marketing, decided to scuttle the venture.
-
We are also safe from those threatening museums :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The BULLET
The Official Publication of the Western Missouri Shooters' Alliance
Permission to reprint material granted, with full attribution
September, 1994
The BATF raided the North Carolina Military Museum and found (gasp) automatic weapons!!!! All legally registered. The museum curator was arrested nonetheless for possession of these guns, some ammunition, deactivated artillery shells, and a dewat rocket launcher; all legal.
NRA Alert July 1, 1994
BATF BUST IN BOONE, NORTH CAROLINA
The curator of the North Carolina Military Museum was the target of a BATF raid Tuesday, June 28. With search warrants in hand, ATF agents seized about 20 fully automatic firearms -- all legally registered to the curator -- inert artillery shells on display and about 100,000 rounds of small arms ammunition, according to the curator. Agents claimed the shells contain powder residue -- yet were clearly labeled "EOD INERT." Agents also claimed that the ammunition could have been stolen from the military. Curator Greg Pruess told NRA Public Affairs that he holds a Class III and a destructive device manufacturing license.
Pruess noted that ATF's computer print-out of the Class III firearms he had registered was inaccurate and said the agents did not know how to identify some of the firearms in question.
The small arms ammo was stored in a storage building adjacent to the museum. Once the agents noted the extent of the ammo, they called the press. Parroting comments made by the agents, local reporters said an explosion of the ammo cache could have cau sed a crater a half-mile wide. (Later news reports expanded the crater porential to a mile-wide.)
The agents came across an RPG launcher (inert, with operating devices welded-over) and allowed a member of the news crew to shoulder it while videotaping. "This is the kind of communist bloc weaponry" that prompted the raid, an agent told the press.
-
Pregnant women are also a large threat to our society.
--------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Brooks promises BATF investigation
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 94 17:39:12 -0500
Message-ID:
{{...}}
"House chairman attacks federal gun agency
WASHINGTON, Oct 6 (Reuter) - The chairman of the House Judiciary Committee Thursday said Congress should curb the power of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to take guns away from Americans."
{{...}}
"As an example of what he said were ATF's abuses, Brooks introduced Louis and Kimberly Katona of Bucyrus, Ohio, who described an ATF raid on their House in 1992 to seize more than $100,000 worth of weapons they had collected.
Kimberly Katona said she suffered a miscarriage after she was shoved during the raid and her husband was indicted on 19 federal firearms violations. A federal judge dismissed the charges and ordered the weapons returned.
"It's been 2.5 years of hell," Louis Katona said. He said he is suing the agency."
-
If you haven't seen this yet slap yourself about the head and shoulder region vigorously.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/view/
-
well... nice timeline of the events... lets take everything a little at a time here tho raider...
first... you claim to have extensive firearms experiance yet never owned or own a firearm... anyone here who likes guns thinks you must be....uh.... exagerating... or maybe you got your "extensive experiance" by being forced to shoot like in the military?
You can't tell if a bullet came out of a semi auto that has been "converted"
The firearms taken from the fire were melted in most cases but not destroyed... I could examing them for you and tell you if they had auto sears or not... anyone with "extensive firearms experiance" probly could..
The davidians were not charged with firing on ATF agents or murder... Why is that? You are within your rights to fire at unidentified people engdangering your life.
We can take all your other points one by one but let's work on the first ones first. and...
I gotta ask.... since you admit that the ATF and FBI consistently lied during the investigation and botched or destroyed evidence..... How can you believe anything they ever say again when their is no absolute proof? How can you not believe citizens who claim the ATF framed em? Do you agree that every FBI and ATF agent caught lieing in order to cover up or convict a citizen should be instantly fired?
lazs
-
[ I don't rely on the government for anything besides protection from external invasion and maybe some good roads. Beyond that I expect nothing[/B]
I will agree with you there lol
-
Originally posted by Raider179
Any of you gonna answer all these questions or just go off on your own tyraids? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Child Protective Services had ALREADY been out there with NO PROBLEMS!
Have you even bothered to try and examine issue?
The information you KEEP asking for is posted already, are you reading it?
NO ILLEGAL FIREARMS charges were brought against these people.
WHY NOT?
CLAIMS were made by the Feds but they REFUSE to allow any one to see the items that they are using to make the claims.
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
We are also safe from those threatening museums :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The BULLET
The Official Publication of the Western Missouri Shooters' Alliance
Permission to reprint material granted, with full attribution
September, 1994
The BATF raided the North Carolina Military Museum and found (gasp) automatic weapons!!!! All legally registered. The museum curator was arrested nonetheless for possession of these guns, some ammunition, deactivated artillery shells, and a dewat rocket launcher; all legal.
NRA Alert July 1, 1994
BATF BUST IN BOONE, NORTH CAROLINA
The curator of the North Carolina Military Museum was the target of a BATF raid Tuesday, June 28. With search warrants in hand, ATF agents seized about 20 fully automatic firearms -- all legally registered to the curator -- inert artillery shells on display and about 100,000 rounds of small arms ammunition, according to the curator. Agents claimed the shells contain powder residue -- yet were clearly labeled "EOD INERT." Agents also claimed that the ammunition could have been stolen from the military. Curator Greg Pruess told NRA Public Affairs that he holds a Class III and a destructive device manufacturing license.
Pruess noted that ATF's computer print-out of the Class III firearms he had registered was inaccurate and said the agents did not know how to identify some of the firearms in question.
The small arms ammo was stored in a storage building adjacent to the museum. Once the agents noted the extent of the ammo, they called the press. Parroting comments made by the agents, local reporters said an explosion of the ammo cache could have cau sed a crater a half-mile wide. (Later news reports expanded the crater porential to a mile-wide.)
The agents came across an RPG launcher (inert, with operating devices welded-over) and allowed a member of the news crew to shoulder it while videotaping. "This is the kind of communist bloc weaponry" that prompted the raid, an agent told the press.
This curator?
Greg Pruess?
This one?
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_pruess.docket.txt
2/21/95 -- PLEA entered by Gregory Roland Pruess. Court accepts plea.
Guilty: Gregory Roland Pruess (1) count(s) 8 (Terminated
motions: ) (smj) [Entry date 02/23/95]
2/21/95 -- Plea and Rule 11 hearing as to Gregory Roland Pruess held
before Judge Voorhees in Statesville. Deft. is sworn and
present w/retained counsel Jerry Parnell and AUSA Church is
present for the govt. Peterson is the reporter. Deft.
pleads guilty to Ct. 8. Rule 11 inquiry and findings are
made and accepted by the Court. F/B & Sentencing are
deferred. (smj) [Entry date 02/23/95]
he plead guilty in a plea bargain. Yeah he was innocent :rolleyes:
Your other story I could find ZERO corroborating evidence of.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
well... nice timeline of the events... lets take everything a little at a time here tho raider...
first... you claim to have extensive firearms experiance yet never owned or own a firearm... anyone here who likes guns thinks you must be....uh.... exagerating... or maybe you got your "extensive experiance" by being forced to shoot like in the military?
You can't tell if a bullet came out of a semi auto that has been "converted"
The firearms taken from the fire were melted in most cases but not destroyed... I could examing them for you and tell you if they had auto sears or not... anyone with "extensive firearms experiance" probly could..
The davidians were not charged with firing on ATF agents or murder... Why is that? You are within your rights to fire at unidentified people engdangering your life.
We can take all your other points one by one but let's work on the first ones first. and...
I gotta ask.... since you admit that the ATF and FBI consistently lied during the investigation and botched or destroyed evidence..... How can you believe anything they ever say again when their is no absolute proof? How can you not believe citizens who claim the ATF framed em? Do you agree that every FBI and ATF agent caught lieing in order to cover up or convict a citizen should be instantly fired?
lazs
It was close to military training. ROTC Rifle Team for 3 years.
I never said you could tell the difference.
Like I said, after the initial assault there is no reason the BD's couldn't have surrendered and had their day in court. Koresh even promised to surrender and re-nigged so he could keep talking to god. He used the children and adults as bargaining chips so he could spread his "message".
Voluntary mansluaghter means they killed someone when they didn't have to, or werent supposed to, but it is understood how it could have happened.
That still does not explain why they didn't come out for 2 months and I maintain they were not planning on coming out alive.
As to answers for your questions
1)Most federal agents are professionals. Like any institution you are gonna have bad apples. Also like I said I know a lot of federal agents and it re-affirms my belief that most are not "ninja's".
2)Yes, fired and charged.
Here is a question to you.
Do you think the police (local,state) are ninja's too? or is it just feds?
-
Originally posted by wrag
Child Protective Services had ALREADY been out there with NO PROBLEMS!
Have you even bothered to try and examine issue?
The information you KEEP asking for is posted already, are you reading it?
NO ILLEGAL FIREARMS charges were brought against these people.
WHY NOT?
CLAIMS were made by the Feds but they REFUSE to allow any one to see the items that they are using to make the claims.
Still havent gotten answers to these...But I understand why, pick and choose what questions make your side look better instead of answering all of them.
4)Did the Branch Davidians after the inital assault, come out and face their "day in court"?
5)Was the government trying to kill them or just force them to leave the compound?
6)Do you think you have the right to repulse government agents executing a legal search warrant with fire-arms?
7)Do you think as a citizen of this country you are obligated to abide by all laws?
-
Originally posted by Raider179
It was close to military training. ROTC Rifle Team for 3 years.
I never said you could tell the difference.
Like I said, after the initial assault there is no reason the BD's couldn't have surrendered and had their day in court. Koresh even promised to surrender and re-nigged so he could keep talking to god. He used the children and adults as bargaining chips so he could spread his "message".
Voluntary mansluaghter means they killed someone when they didn't have to, or werent supposed to, but it is understood how it could have happened.
That still does not explain why they didn't come out for 2 months and I maintain they were not planning on coming out alive.
As to answers for your questions
1)Most federal agents are professionals. Like any institution you are gonna have bad apples. Also like I said I know a lot of federal agents and it re-affirms my belief that most are not "ninja's".
2)Yes, fired and charged.
Here is a question to you.
Do you think the police (local,state) are ninja's too? or is it just feds?
The head of the BATF in about or around 1990 was trying to obtain AH-1 attack helo's and allot of other military equipment. That individual was later removed from that position. Seems there were a few BATF agents that let the world know what was happening.
I watched a BATF agent attempt to cow a shooting range manager. Came in and ordered the manager to give him all his membership records. The agent was very aggresive. The shooting range manager did not comply. No one spoke no one enterfered. The two went round and round for about 10 minutes and the BATF agent left without any information. IMHO that BATF agent was WAY out of line and was attempting to obtain information he had NO right to.
The Local Law Enforcement people can be abusive YES.
On the overall I'd have to say NO. Most local's are pretty good, even excellent, law enforcement people. They do the job they signed on for and rarely if ever overstep the bounderies one associates with GOOD law enforcement.
L.A. Cal. Is probably the best example that comes to mind of abuse.
That department has been caught in some very serious cases of abuse.
I recall one instance when a drug raid was pulled on a ranch, the owner was killed, and NO drugs of any sort were ever found. Caused a pretty big stink. Was not too long after the drug forfiture laws were inacted. Word was it was an attempt to grab that ranch and sell it for funding?
So you perhaps might understand Raider many people consider this kinda stuff just cause for being anti-BATF.
I'm NOT anti-law enforcement. It's a rough, difficult job I would not care to have.
I am however very AGAINST any law enforcement agency that goes beyond the boundries of the bill of rights, any agency that SEEMS to treat we the people with contempt, any agency that SEEMS to behave in an arrogant manner, which all too frequently the BATF SEEMS to do.
-
Originally posted by Raider179
Still havent gotten answers to these...But I understand why, pick and choose what questions make your side look better instead of answering all of them.
4)Did the Branch Davidians after the inital assault, come out and face their "day in court"?
5)Was the government trying to kill them or just force them to leave the compound?
6)Do you think you have the right to repulse government agents executing a legal search warrant with fire-arms?
7)Do you think as a citizen of this country you are obligated to abide by all laws?
A Chief Justice of the Supreme court answered Number 7 for you.
Pretty sure it was Joseph Story.
I believe he said any law that does not comply with the constitution is NULL and VOID.
I'm pretty sure he was including the Bill of Rights.
Also .............
"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious
laws so effective as their stringent execution."
Ulysses S. Grant (1822-1885)
American president
and.........
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato
and ................
"How should it happen that the individual should be without rights, but the combination of individuals should possess unlimited rights?" —Auberon Herbert
As to number 6 ...
Depends..........
Consider we are all of us now under threat of terrorist attacks.
How am I supposed to know who they are if they don't tell me thay are executing a legal search warrent?
"Never forget that if you leave your law to judges and your
religion to bishops you will presently find yourself without
either law or religion."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
Anglo-Irish playwright, critic
"Many politicians lay it down as a self-evident proposition
that no people ought to be free until they are fit to use
their freedom. The maxim is worthy of the fool in the old
story who resolved not to go into the water until he had
learned to swim.", from Lord Macaulay an English historian.
"The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free
to do then in what we are free not to do." Eric Hoffer
American philosopher.
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking
others to live as one wishes to live." Oscar Wilde Anglo-
Irish author.
"I think that the sacredness of human life is a purely
municipal ideal of no validity outside the jurisdiction. I
believe that force, mitigated as far as may be by good
manners, is the ultimate ratio, and between two groups of men
that want to make inconsistent kinds of world I see no remedy
except force . . . It seems to me that every society rests on
the death of men."
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes (1841-1935)
American jurist
Are we a free people?
-
my friends and I have made many fireworks
I love fire works..Like I love my guns
Using Cardboard tubes for "explove bombs" is REDICULOUS..
You use Cardboard tubes as a base for building roman candles..You actually roll various amounts of aluminum..and other metals to create the colors you see when they shoot out of the card board toobs
To equate aluminum and card board toobs with bomb making is assinine..but alot of what raider has said is that
As far as illegal weapons go..that is a crock of crap too..So Now im a felon because I have a folding stock on a 10/22 ruger?...ya a semi auot 22. calibber rifle..SCARY!!!!!!...oh!! but wait..you mean i have a bayonet on my russian made 1952 35" auto loader>?....SCARY!!!!!!!...
Its a buch of BULLSHEITE..the ATF is CRAP...they make me sick
I have a friend who works for the BATF...He bust wine companies out here in napa for not paying taxes on wine. He doesn tgiev a crap about guns..the only info he gets is what they feed him.....Its funny as heel..when he hears " assualt wepaons baN' he thinks we used to be able to get full auto guns.!!! f ing crappp
Reading about this stuff..and reading about raiders complete lack of guns ..and the gun laws they are forcing us into makes me send another donation to the NRA.
-
Originally posted by wrag
A Chief Justice of the Supreme court answered Number 7 for you.
Pretty sure it was Joseph Story.
I believe he said any law that does not comply with the constitution is NULL and VOID.
I'm pretty sure he was including the Bill of Rights.
Also .............
"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious
laws so effective as their stringent execution."
Ulysses S. Grant (1822-1885)
American president
and.........
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato
and ................
"How should it happen that the individual should be without rights, but the combination of individuals should possess unlimited rights?" —Auberon Herbert
As to number 6 ...
Depends..........
Consider we are all of us now under threat of terrorist attacks.
How am I supposed to know who they are if they don't tell me thay are executing a legal search warrent?
"Never forget that if you leave your law to judges and your
religion to bishops you will presently find yourself without
either law or religion."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
Anglo-Irish playwright, critic
"Many politicians lay it down as a self-evident proposition
that no people ought to be free until they are fit to use
their freedom. The maxim is worthy of the fool in the old
story who resolved not to go into the water until he had
learned to swim.", from Lord Macaulay an English historian.
"The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free
to do then in what we are free not to do." Eric Hoffer
American philosopher.
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking
others to live as one wishes to live." Oscar Wilde Anglo-
Irish author.
"I think that the sacredness of human life is a purely
municipal ideal of no validity outside the jurisdiction. I
believe that force, mitigated as far as may be by good
manners, is the ultimate ratio, and between two groups of men
that want to make inconsistent kinds of world I see no remedy
except force . . . It seems to me that every society rests on
the death of men."
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes (1841-1935)
American jurist
Are we a free people?
Are you gonna actually answer any of these questions or just post quotes by other people. I didn't want other people's answers I want yours as an individual.
As for the Null and Void please find a link or something because as far as I know, You do not make that decision regarding what laws are Unconstitutional that is up to the court system.
Go read Socrates/Aristotle on the duties of a citizen.
As for knowing they are law enforcement, They were on the Phone with the ATF while the raid was coming apart, They might not have known at first but they knew within 1 minute who it was outside.
Tough question on free people. I would say for the most part we are.
-
I would pretty much echo wrag..
I deal with law enforcement officers allmost daily... I believe that for the most part they are hard working and honest. They do not feel that they need to wear masks and ninja suits to serve a no knock warrant on a middle aged couple tho for instance. I don't think that they have a policy of lieing in court... I would say tho that based on the evidence that the ATF feels that it is against policy to tell the truth no matter what.
nope.. more importantly tho... korresh felt that way... the local sherrif had been there plenty... if he would have come to the door he would have been in no danger.... didn't even need a mask or ninja outfit...
as for your ROTC "rifel team" experiance... soory but you never having owned a firearm of your own... and no interest in them and in light of your misstakes here... I would say that you talking about firearms has about as much validity as Burger king frier of the month has in talking about raising beef cattle.
You questions..... In the negotiator tape... the Davidians were constantly lied to and promises were broken... at one point the negotiator tells them that if they come out they will be killed.... that may have had some effect on them staying.... Korresh asked repeatedly for a news camera crew to come in to negotiate the surrender in the belief that the ATF would be less likely to mow down a news crew than to shoot up women and children. Why was this request not granted?
As for the FLIR images... the man who invented the system is the one who interprets the images in the documentaries... He probly has the best info... He claims that no other explanation is possible... The davidians were being fired on.
If the images are to be believed... then the government was spraying down anyone who tried to leave by the only exit in the rear during the fire...
and you claimed that ATF agents were shot with full auto bullets... no such thing.. no way to tell
do you have a right to refuse a legal search warrant? no... do you have the right to fire on people shooting at you who have not identified themselves or.... even if they have... if they break in and attack you .... you have the right to defend yourself... that is the law... No davidians were charged with resisting a warrant or murder or assault on police officers. And.... the warrant was rife with errors including the wrong numbers... it could even be considered to not be a lawful warrant.
are citizens obliged to abey laws? of course... but so are govenment agencies... in fact... even more so,
Korresh had said that he would come out after he did the 7 seals translation...he got one done and then they attacked and burned the people in there alive... men women and children. There was no need for it..
Korresh and his followers may have been more paranoid than they needed to be but... they had been lied too and taunted and shot at... they had a right to be distrustfull. They had a TV and were hearing the lies that the FBI and ATF were saying about them... Of course they figured that they were screwed...
There were no reporters or civilians outside (1.5 miles away) and none could even see what was happening at the back of the church buildings... All the davidians seen was storm troopers and immature bird flippers and mooners and dog shooters... the tanks even ground a davidian grave under their treads.
Look at the videos and listen to the ngotiations and tell me those people inside were not scared out of their minds.
Tell me what crimes they committed to justify the deaths and torture of all those people including the over 20 children?
I think that korresh was too paranoid and made things worse. I think that once things got to a certain point that the authorities should have handled things very much differently.
I put equal blame for how things turned out on both parties... davidians and ninjas.... I put full blame on causeing the problem in the first place on the immature and incompetent ninja storm troopers.
lazs
-
Originally posted by GreenCloud
my friends and I have made many fireworks
I love fire works..Like I love my guns
Using Cardboard tubes for "explove bombs" is REDICULOUS..
You use Cardboard tubes as a base for building roman candles..You actually roll various amounts of aluminum..and other metals to create the colors you see when they shoot out of the card board toobs
To equate aluminum and card board toobs with bomb making is assinine..but alot of what raider has said is that
As far as illegal weapons go..that is a crock of crap too..So Now im a felon because I have a folding stock on a 10/22 ruger?...ya a semi auot 22. calibber rifle..SCARY!!!!!!...oh!! but wait..you mean i have a bayonet on my russian made 1952 35" auto loader>?....SCARY!!!!!!!...
Its a buch of BULLSHEITE..the ATF is CRAP...they make me sick
I have a friend who works for the BATF...He bust wine companies out here in napa for not paying taxes on wine. He doesn tgiev a crap about guns..the only info he gets is what they feed him.....Its funny as heel..when he hears " assualt wepaons baN' he thinks we used to be able to get full auto guns.!!! f ing crappp
Reading about this stuff..and reading about raiders complete lack of guns ..and the gun laws they are forcing us into makes me send another donation to the NRA.
It wasnt cardboard tubes for bombs, They found lots of practice grenades that had been modified.
What do you think they used powdered AL metal for? I mean it's a church right? Why have 90 pounds of the stuff? Everything fits that they were gearing up for either a showdown with law enforcement or planning an attack of their own.
-
Originally posted by Raider179
he plead guilty in a plea bargain. Yeah he was innocent :rolleyes:
My God boy you are a candidate for goose stepping class if I ever seen one.
You can`t read those documents and determine what went on here.
Sure he plea bargained. It was either that or that or get railroaded worse. He had absolutely no choice.
Your BATF heros couldn`t even identify the weapons. That`s not what they wanted to begin with. The FFL was all they wanted. Get a grip.
Like I said earlier, you let the cat out of the bag a ways back.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
I would pretty much echo wrag..
I deal with law enforcement officers allmost daily... I believe that for the most part they are hard working and honest. They do not feel that they need to wear masks and ninja suits to serve a no knock warrant on a middle aged couple tho for instance. I don't think that they have a policy of lieing in court... I would say tho that based on the evidence that the ATF feels that it is against policy to tell the truth no matter what.
nope.. more importantly tho... korresh felt that way... the local sherrif had been there plenty... if he would have come to the door he would have been in no danger.... didn't even need a mask or ninja outfit...
as for your ROTC "rifel team" experiance... soory but you never having owned a firearm of your own... and no interest in them and in light of your misstakes here... I would say that you talking about firearms has about as much validity as Burger king frier of the month has in talking about raising beef cattle.
You questions..... In the negotiator tape... the Davidians were constantly lied to and promises were broken... at one point the negotiator tells them that if they come out they will be killed.... that may have had some effect on them staying.... Korresh asked repeatedly for a news camera crew to come in to negotiate the surrender in the belief that the ATF would be less likely to mow down a news crew than to shoot up women and children. Why was this request not granted?
and you claimed that ATF agents were shot with full auto bullets... no such thing.. no way to tell
do you have a right to refuse a legal search warrant? no... do you have the right to fire on people shooting at you who have not identified themselves or.... even if they have... if they break in and attack you .... you have the right to defend yourself... that is the law... No davidians were charged with resisting a warrant or murder or assault on police officers. And.... the warrant was rife with errors including the wrong numbers... it could even be considered to not be a lawful warrant.
are citizens obliged to abey laws? of course... but so are govenment agencies... in fact... even more so,
Korresh had said that he would come out after he did the 7 seals translation...he got one done and then they attacked and burned the people in there alive... men women and children. There was no need for it..
Korresh and his followers may have been more paranoid than they needed to be but... they had been lied too and taunted and shot at... they had a right to be distrustfull. They had a TV and were hearing the lies that the FBI and ATF were saying about them... Of course they figured that they were screwed...
There were no reporters or civilians outside (1.5 miles away) and none could even see what was happening at the back of the church buildings... All the davidians seen was storm troopers and immature bird flippers and mooners and dog shooters... the tanks even ground a davidian grave under their treads.
Look at the videos and listen to the ngotiations and tell me those people inside were not scared out of their minds.
Tell me what crimes they committed to justify the deaths and torture of all those people including the over 20 children?
I think that korresh was too paranoid and made things worse. I think that once things got to a certain point that the authorities should have handled things very much differently.
I put equal blame for how things turned out on both parties... davidians and ninjas.... I put full blame on causeing the problem in the first place on the immature and incompetent ninja storm troopers.
lazs
Have you ever seen police with ski masks? How bout swat teams? ALL law enforcement that engage in undercover activities will wear masks to protect their identities during raids. It's not just Feds.
name 1 mistake I have made on fire-arms. You might not like my views on them but I havent erred that I know of or that you have pointed out.
Your Opinion on the WACO tapes is meaningless without a link. I linked to what I use, why can't you? oh nm just answered my own question.
The presence of a few dozen converted automatic weapons on the premises is all the evidence I need to believe they were used to repel the Execution of the warrant.
If the ATF did so many illegal things then why did a judge toss the lawsuit by survivors out of court?
Sorry but not buying it. They could have walked out at any point. What was it 40+ that did surrender over the course of those 2 months. Kinda throws a wrench in that whole they were scared to surrender thing. 1/3 of them did surrender peacefully and without bloodshed.
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I named both documentaries. watch em or don't... there is ample evidence of government forces lieing time after time.
A real gem was the one you quoted about the alligator teared ATF guy saying that 'we were outgunned" you left out that he said that he only had nine mm's to the davidians 223's... and then the tapes that show the ATF spraying the house with m16 full autos and Mp5 full autos until they exhaused their ammo loads.
As to police going undercover... yes... they do and rightly so in gang related arrests... there is a very real danger there.. Not when you are serving a warrant for taxes on firearms not paid or allegations of child abuse.
To answer your questions...I think everyone here (except possibly you) would 1,000 times more rather have their local police knock on the door and serve them with a warrant than to have 30 black clad ninjas start spraying the front of their home with gunfire in a wee hours no knock raid.
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If all we need to close this is to answer raiders questions again....
1)Were there illegal weapons at Waco?
2)Were there illegal explosives at Waco?
3)Was Koresh sexually molesting children at Waco?
4)Did the Branch Davidians after the inital assault, come out and face their "day in court"?
5)Was the government trying to kill them or just force them to leave the compound?
6)Do you think you have the right to repulse government agents executing a legal search warrant with fire-arms?
7)Do you think as a citizen of this country you are obligated to abide by all laws
1.... maybe... maybe not.. none have ever been submitted for testing... certainly there were weapons but not even a great deal for that many people. No person has ever been charged with the crime... to do so would mean that the guns in question would be available to the surviving davidians lawyers.... no matter what... korresh invited law enforcement to examine all his weapons long before the raid. In my opinion... he probly was messing with conversions.... a crime but.... not worth killing or dying over and... just my opinion... no evidence of any converted weapons.
2... again.... who knows? none were given over for examination and even if there were a few... how is that a reason to kill and die? the local sheriff would have gladly searched the place if the ATF was too frieghtened.
3... I don't know. One girl claims that is so. in texas you can marry at 14... all the girls parents were living there. I also fail to see how if it were true that it was any concern of ATF or more so... a reason for a wee hours ninja full auto assault on a church.... and... it seems particularly odd that anyone would fear child abuse more than they would fear killing every single child in the home or that it would be more dangerous than spraying said home with full auto fire.
4... when karresh initially came out he was shot and people were killed.... in the end... people were machine gunned who tried to escape.... somewhere in between it may have been possible to surrender and not die but I can understand the fear in the church.
5... see 4.. I don't think that they were set on killing everyone.. I think that things snowballed and got out of hand. I think a lot ot the officers on the scene were indeed trying to kill davidians no matter what. I do not believe that it was a decision that was arrived at or even ordered. I believe it was the incompetence that got out of hand and spiraled that caused all the killing.
6....I believe people have the right to defend themselves. If the police fire first without provocation then the davidians were well within their rights... the court seems to agree.
7.... do you think the nazis at the death camps as soldiers and citizens were obligated to obey orders? I believe that you disobey one or more of the 5 million federal laws regularly and don't even know it. I believe that you (or any of us) don't even know half the time if what we are doing is illegal or not....
on a personal note.... I am a coward and obey laws every day that I know to be unconstitutional and immoral. My only excuse it that I do what I can to get them repealed..... which is not much.
I would ask you... do you obey every law that you are aware of? Would traffic violations make you an extremist and as such.... worth a ninja night, no knock raid on your compound? If illegal substances were found in your compound should I believe you or the feds? Governent troops shouldn't have to take a chance of being identified or injured to arrest you right?
lazs
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Originally posted by Jackal1
My God boy you are a candidate for goose stepping class if I ever seen one.
You can`t read those documents and determine what went on here.
Sure he plea bargained. It was either that or that or get railroaded worse. He had absolutely no choice.
Your BATF heros couldn`t even identify the weapons. That`s not what they wanted to begin with. The FFL was all they wanted. Get a grip.
Like I said earlier, you let the cat out of the bag a ways back.
Whatever. I wouldn't plead out if I wasnt guilty. Guess your hero doesn't have a spine or he would have fought and said I wasn't guilty. Wasn't he charged for having 40mm grenades?
The report I read didn't say they could id the guns, that is what the curator said. I read everything from he was convicted from a being a felon with a gun, to having those 40mm grenades so since you are so familiar with the case what was he charged with and what was his ultimate conviction for?
I've got a grip I think its you who is finding fake bellybutton stories and putting them up here as real. I have already said that mistakes do occur but not on the scope or level to make me paranoid of ninja's. So you can quit looking for 1 example from 1995 or 1 from 1991. Stop wasting both of our time.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I named both documentaries. watch em or don't... there is ample evidence of government forces lieing time after time.
A real gem was the one you quoted about the alligator teared ATF guy saying that 'we were outgunned" you left out that he said that he only had nine mm's to the davidians 223's... and then the tapes that show the ATF spraying the house with m16 full autos and Mp5 full autos until they exhaused their ammo loads.
As to police going undercover... yes... they do and rightly so in gang related arrests... there is a very real danger there.. Not when you are serving a warrant for taxes on firearms not paid or allegations of child abuse.
To answer your questions...I think everyone here (except possibly you) would 1,000 times more rather have their local police knock on the door and serve them with a warrant than to have 30 black clad ninjas start spraying the front of their home with gunfire in a wee hours no knock raid.
I have watched and I will admit its been awhile.
Quote me...oh thats right you cant because I didnt say it.
The quote I did put was this. "Of the sixteen (16) other agents that were injured, most were said to have been shot by automatic weapons fire . . . including that from a .50 caliber machinegun. According to BATF agent and spokesperson Sharon Wheeler, "The problem was that we were outgunned . . . and we couldn't fire randomly into the building because of women and children known to be in there."
I never said anything about atf and the 9mm or the m16's that was YOU all the way not me. The reason I quoted this is to show why the ATF backed off. They didn't want to kill women and kids and nor were they out of ammo like YOU suggest. The atf did spray the compound but only at the rooms they were taking fire from. You know the whole return fire defense that you use for the BD's.
Who are you to judge what is dangerous for an undercover ATF agent? Ever hear of them making arrests with Hell's Angels or other biker gangs that are dealing in fire-arms? Gun smugglers are some of the most dangerous people around and you expect them to not protect their identities :rolleyes:
I will agree that it was a bad plan. But that does not give the BD's the right to sit in the Compound for the next 2 months in defiance of the law.
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Originally posted by lazs2
If all we need to close this is to answer raiders questions again....
1)Were there illegal weapons at Waco?
2)Were there illegal explosives at Waco?
3)Was Koresh sexually molesting children at Waco?
4)Did the Branch Davidians after the inital assault, come out and face their "day in court"?
5)Was the government trying to kill them or just force them to leave the compound?
6)Do you think you have the right to repulse government agents executing a legal search warrant with fire-arms?
7)Do you think as a citizen of this country you are obligated to abide by all laws
1.... maybe... maybe not.. none have ever been submitted for testing... certainly there were weapons but not even a great deal for that many people. No person has ever been charged with the crime... to do so would mean that the guns in question would be available to the surviving davidians lawyers.... no matter what... korresh invited law enforcement to examine all his weapons long before the raid. In my opinion... he probly was messing with conversions.... a crime but.... not worth killing or dying over and... just my opinion... no evidence of any converted weapons.
2... again.... who knows? none were given over for examination and even if there were a few... how is that a reason to kill and die? the local sheriff would have gladly searched the place if the ATF was too frieghtened.
3... I don't know. One girl claims that is so. in texas you can marry at 14... all the girls parents were living there. I also fail to see how if it were true that it was any concern of ATF or more so... a reason for a wee hours ninja full auto assault on a church.... and... it seems particularly odd that anyone would fear child abuse more than they would fear killing every single child in the home or that it would be more dangerous than spraying said home with full auto fire.
4... when karresh initially came out he was shot and people were killed.... in the end... people were machine gunned who tried to escape.... somewhere in between it may have been possible to surrender and not die but I can understand the fear in the church.
5... see 4.. I don't think that they were set on killing everyone.. I think that things snowballed and got out of hand. I think a lot ot the officers on the scene were indeed trying to kill davidians no matter what. I do not believe that it was a decision that was arrived at or even ordered. I believe it was the incompetence that got out of hand and spiraled that caused all the killing.
6....I believe people have the right to defend themselves. If the police fire first without provocation then the davidians were well within their rights... the court seems to agree.
7.... do you think the nazis at the death camps as soldiers and citizens were obligated to obey orders? I believe that you disobey one or more of the 5 million federal laws regularly and don't even know it. I believe that you (or any of us) don't even know half the time if what we are doing is illegal or not....
on a personal note.... I am a coward and obey laws every day that I know to be unconstitutional and immoral. My only excuse it that I do what I can to get them repealed..... which is not much.
I would ask you... do you obey every law that you are aware of? Would traffic violations make you an extremist and as such.... worth a ninja night, no knock raid on your compound? If illegal substances were found in your compound should I believe you or the feds? Governent troops shouldn't have to take a chance of being identified or injured to arrest you right?
lazs
A judge apparently believed there was suffiecient evidence and ordered not only a search warrant for the compound but an ARREST warrant for Koresh.
You conviently leave out the 2 months between the initial raid and the final assault that the BD's could walk out at anytime. Oh thats right 1/3 did leave and were ok. Too bad the rest didn't obey Law enforcement they would have been ok too.
I might agree with you on #5
You said yourself (I think you did anyway) no one knows who fired first, it is presumed an ATF agent shot a dog at the compound. That does not endanger anyone's life and is hardly worthy of shooting at people over.
Obeying orders as a soldier is different than obeying the law as a citizen. Military/Civilian
I'm sorry were the germans a free people? I thought it was a dictatorship and those people were forced to do things at the threat of death. That is a good point though.
There is a big difference between speeding and armed insurrection which is what I see WACO as having became after the initial raid.
Why just believe the feds, Why don't you go ask the UPS guy who deliever the 90 lbs of powdered AL to the compound. He was after all the one that made the report about explosives at the compound.
It's so that after arrest you don't go hey there's Joey well he's an ATF undercover agent and then your buddies or you go kill joey and his family. Not too mention if his identity is out he can no longer be safe undercover thus wasting all the money you spent training him to be said undercover agent.
I have had my rights violated numerous times by regular law enforcement. Traffic stops turning into searches for no reason. I have yet to have the "Ninja's" raid my house. I worry more about corrupt local cops than I do federal ninjas. lol
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Originally posted by wrag
A Chief Justice of the Supreme court answered Number 7 for you.
Pretty sure it was Joseph Story.
I believe he said any law that does not comply with the constitution is NULL and VOID.
I'm pretty sure he was including the Bill of Rights.
I believe you are referring to the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions offered by Madison and Jefferson around 1800.
They stated if the federal government oversteps it's authority, (by creating unconstitutional laws) then the STATES may declare them null and void. Called Nullification. The STATES may do it, not the individuals holed up in Mt. Carmel.
It further goes on to say that the STATES in such a position are under obligation to stay between the Feds and the Citizenry in order to protect them. (citizens) Interposition
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Originally posted by Raider179
Whatever. I wouldn't plead out if I wasnt guilty. Guess your hero doesn't have a spine or he would have fought and said I wasn't guilty.
Ya know, for some reason, I believe you are just flat out trolling now. I just don`t happen to think you are really that dense or naive, sorry.
Sure , after being targeted by the BATF, it being under Fed control, (or at least supposedly), the press called beforehand to make brownie points and sew things up, all just to get the FFL away from him, he could have went to a "Federal" court, with a Federal" judge and had a snowball`s chance in hell. You can see that, I can see that and most everyone else can. It was a setup to get the FFL, nothing more.
I guess they could have held the trial in Pleasanttville, then all joined hands and went down to Happy Mountain Amusement park for lollipops and cotton candy afterwards. :)
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Originally posted by Raider179
? Ever hear of them making arrests with Hell's Angels or other biker gangs that are dealing in fire-arms?
------------------>>>>>:D ;)
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Ya know, for some reason, I believe you are just flat out trolling now. I just don`t happen to think you are really that dense or naive, sorry.
Sure , after being targeted by the BATF, it being under Fed control, (or at least supposedly), the press called beforehand to make brownie points and sew things up, all just to get the FFL away from him, he could have went to a "Federal" court, with a Federal" judge and had a snowball`s chance in hell. You can see that, I can see that and most everyone else can. It was a setup to get the FFL, nothing more.
I guess they could have held the trial in Pleasanttville, then all joined hands and went down to Happy Mountain Amusement park for lollipops and cotton candy afterwards. :)
So in other words you have no idea what he was charged with or eventually convicted of. :lol :lol
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Aren`t you late for indoctrination class? :)
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Aren`t you late for indoctrination class? :)
Not at all, You got any real info on this or what? You don't even know what he was charged with or plead guilty to.
Aren't you supposed to be cleaing your guns? Tough job keeping the uppity ninja's in line and all. Dont get caught off guard. :lol :lol :lol
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I don`t have any problem readin, except for "thim gret big werds".
It makes no difference what he was charged or convicted for. It was a done deal before the wheels even turned on the Ninjamobile.
It was whatever it took to get the FFL and to try to gain some brownies in the public eye. (which usualy backlashs on them)
They would have charged him with numerous counts of jaywalking, spitting on the sidewalk or felony wearing stripes with plaids. whatever it took.
And all this with Federal support to remove FFLs as has been done in thousands of cases.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
I don`t have any problem readin, except for "thim gret big werds".
It makes no difference what he was charged or convicted for. It was a done deal before the wheels even turned on the Ninjamobile.
It was whatever it took to get the FFL and to try to gain some brownies in the public eye. (which usualy backlashs on them)
They would have charged him with numerous counts of jaywalking, spitting on the sidewalk or felony wearing stripes with plaids. whatever it took.
And all this with Federal support to remove FFLs as has been done in thousands of cases.
The guy plead guilty. If I was innocent There is no way I would plead out. If someone planted/forged evidence there is no way in hell I would ever sign a guilty plea. You plead guilty and now want to say I didn't do it. Yeah, not buying it. Want the presumption of inocence then don't plead guilty in a court of law because that tells me you know you did something illegal.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
I don`t have any problem readin, except for "thim gret big werds".
It makes no difference what he was charged or convicted for. It was a done deal before the wheels even turned on the Ninjamobile.
It was whatever it took to get the FFL and to try to gain some brownies in the public eye. (which usualy backlashs on them)
They would have charged him with numerous counts of jaywalking, spitting on the sidewalk or felony wearing stripes with plaids. whatever it took.
And all this with Federal support to remove FFLs as has been done in thousands of cases.
Ok I find this so amusing its time to let you in on what kind of guy this "curator" is... lol
HICKORY -- Government agents hauled away truckloads of high-powered weapons and explosives Friday from five sites in North Carolina, and a top official said he could not rule out the possibility that anti-government extremists were connected to the theft of military ordnance from Camp Lejeune.
The sheer volume of machine guns, grenade launchers and enormously powerful plastic explosives that were recovered Friday took even the investigators aback, and they suggested that more arrests might still be made in the case.
"You could outfit a small army with what we've recovered," said Mark Logan, special agent in charge of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms in Charlotte. "These are weapons that are designed for no other reason than to kill people. And we're talking mass destruction."
Some of the weapons had been stolen from Camp Lejeune, the Marine base on the North Carolina coast. Six Marines, including four from Camp Lejeune, were arrested Thursday and accused of the theft, purchase and sale of stolen military equipment. Eight civilians have also been arrested, including one who had recently been released from a federal prison after serving a term for firearms violations.
Officials said their investigation has taken them throughout the Southeast, into West Virginia and up to Massachusetts.
"The investigation has really just begun," said Earl Woodham, a spokesman for the ATF. "It's like we just hit the base of an oak tree, and if we follow it up, we may find that it branches out very wide. There are numerous U-Hauls taking weapons away from the sites."
Until Thursday, agents of the ATF and FBI had worked undercover with Marine investigators to find out where stolen weapons and explosives from Camp Lejeune were ending up. Many of the weapons recovered Friday were from Camp Lejeune, investigators said, but a large number had never belonged to the military.
Among the items recovered from two sites in Boone and others in Hickory, Monroe and Raeford were shoulder-launched rocket warheads, grenade launchers, land mines and high-quality, high-powered, fully automatic machine guns.
Logan said greed probably drove the sales of the illegal weapons. But, he added, "Somebody wanted them for something. At some point, money stops changing hands and somebody holds onto the weapons."
He said investigators have uncovered no ties to militia groups or other anti-government extremists, "But we have to look into that, especially when these kinds of weapons are involved. A civilian has no use for these things."
For example, he said, agents recovered an unknown number of M-79 grenade launchers. Resembling a wide-barreled rifle, the M-79 can hurl a grenade more than 1,000 yards and kill anyone in a 15-foot radius. Several blocks of C-4 plastic explosive, each the size of two king-size candy bars stacked one on the other, were also recovered. C-4 has twice the explosive capability of dynamite and is one of the most powerful demolition explosives available to the military.
Court papers filed in Charlotte indicate that the investigation, dubbed Operation Longfuse, began about March 1996. With the help of an unidentified informant, agents discovered that Gregory Roland Pruess, 35, of Boone, had bought and was distributing military explosives and weapons, according to the court papers.
Pruess, who had been doing business in 1994 under the name of the North Carolina Military Museum in Blowing Rock, pleaded guilty in 1996 to unlawfully transferring firearms and weapons. He served a year in prison.
The court papers said that after government agents found out that Pruess was again involved with illegal firearms, they went under cover to investigate him. They approached Pruess, the documents said, and bought 16 blocks of C-4 plastic explosive from him as well as several high-powered machine guns, anti-personnel land mines, rocket warheads and other weapons.
In one instance, agents accompanied Pruess to a storage garage in Abington, Va., where they gathered many of the weapons, according to the court papers, and other weapons were dealt from a storage garage in Boone.
Three of the civilians arrested have ties to the legal firearms industry. Harold Gustave Coach, 49, of Raeford, owns Coach and Sons Military Surplus in Raeford; Alton Laverne Sharpe Jr., 34, of Mount Pleasant, is manager of Classic Arms in Indian Trail.
Another of the civilians arrested, Patrick Wayne Gauldin, 27, lives with his wife and school-age daughter in a subdivision called Lawyer Station in Unionville, on the outskirts of Monroe.
Many of Gauldin's neighbors said they did not know him but knew he had an interest in guns. He carried a lot of them in his truck, one neighbor said.
Employees at two other gun shops in Monroe, D&L Products and Gunworks, said they believe Gauldin once worked at American Shooters Emporium, which closed eight to 10 months ago. Unlike the other gun shops, which specialize in hunting rifles and the like, the emporium was known as the place where people could go for legal assault weapons, including semi-automatics and "street sweepers."
Authorities at Camp Lejeune said Friday that an undercover investigation began after base authorities discovered that explosives might be missing and contacted the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. Material missing from the marine base included ammunition for small weapons, the C-4 explosives, detonation cord and hand grenades, said Neill R. Robins, special agent in charge of the NCIS at Camp Lejeune. He declined to say how much material was missing or recovered.
Robins said investigators think that all the material from the base has been recovered.
"It would be inappropriate right now to speak of the things recovered in other areas," he said. "But the media has reported all kinds of firearms and what have you. They did not come off Camp Lejeune. None of them at this time have been traced to Camp Lejeune."
Joanne Morley, a spokeswoman for the FBI in Charlotte, said a portion of the recovered weapons came from Camp Lejeune, but she could not say what percentage belonged to the military.
"Some of the weapons the civilians had came from some of the Marines," she said. "That much is clear."
Col. Joseph C. Yannessa, the base's assistant chief of staff for safety, said explosives apparently came from training and exercises "as a result of poor inventory control."
"We are continually re-emphasizing inventory control," he said. "However, when some people go bad, all the best controls in the world don't necessarily find bad people."
Robins said the arrested Marines knew one another from school and from working together in units that handle explosives, but he said there was no indication that the Marines were working as a ring or part of an organized group.
"Did these people work in a group to do this? The answer is no," he said. "Did they know one another? Yes. I believe they took advantage of opportunities they were presented with and made bad decisions taking advantage of those opportunities."
Three of the Marines being held until a magistrate's hearing next week saw combat in Operation Desert Storm in 1991, according to military records released Friday. Their service in the Marines ranged from 10 to 23 years, and they varied in rank from sergeant to captain.
One of the six Marines detained - Master Gunnery Sgt. Alfred A. Gerich, 41, of McHenry, Ill. - was released and returned to his unit, Yannessa told The Associated Press.
Gerich was found not to be a flight risk, but may be charged later, officials said. None of the Marines has been formally charged.
Selling stolen military C-4, Rocket warheads, mines, and machine guns. Yeah I am sure he was so innocent the first time. Well doesnt matter now he is screwed. lol
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Originally posted by Raider179
The guy plead guilty. If I was innocent There is no way I would plead out. If someone planted/forged evidence there is no way in hell I would ever sign a guilty plea.
BS. You are just like everyone else. All that "I wouldn`t plead guilty under any corcumstance if I was innocent" is a load of crap.
They stack enough stuff on you and threaten to stack more stuff on you if you don`t cut a plea bargain, you`d plead or you would be so far back in the system they have to shoot peas through a bean shooter for you.
All that, "I would or wouldn`t do" if i was innocent sounds real cool till it`s your turn in the barrel. you`d plea and be damn proud to save as much of your life as possible.
Look at the case you are refering to. Look at what was dismissed, after the plea bargain.
A stacked deck to get the FFL at any cost. If they would have actualy had a case against him they would have persued more than the sentence. That was an attempt to give him enough "punishment" to stay out of the media and limelight as far as the ATF went.
It`s blindingly obvious.
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Yeah wait for it there is more... lmao
A man awaiting trial on federal firearms charges was arrested after allegedly stealing 240 Beanie Babies from a store in a mall.
Gregory Roland Pruess, 36, of Boone, has been charged with stealing the popular plush toys while he was working at the mall. Police said they caught Pruess stealing the toys last week on video using a hidden camera.
Pruess was already charged with 25 counts of federal weapons violations following an undercover sting in October 1997. At the time, federal agents seized dozens of weapons including rocket launchers, machine guns, mines, mortars and grenades.
He spent about a year in prison after he was indicted on 12 counts of firearms violations in 1994 and pleaded guilty to one charge.
He was released last August on $ 50,000 unsecured bond.
And he is a beanie baby theif. lol Come on that has to make you laugh at least... :lol :lol
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Originally posted by Jackal1
BS. You are just like everyone else. All that "I wouldn`t plead guilty under any corcumstance if I was innocent" is a load of crap.
They stack enough stuff on you and threaten to stack more stuff on you if you don`t cut a plea bargain, you`d plead or you would be so far back in the system they have to shoot peas through a bean shooter for you.
All that, "I would or wouldn`t do" if i was innocent sounds real cool till it`s your turn in the barrel. you`d plea and be damn proud to save as much of your life as possible.
Look at the case you are refering to. Look at what was dismissed, after the plea bargain.
A stacked deck to get the FFL at any cost. If they would have actualy had a case against him they would have persued more than the sentence. That was an attempt to give him enough "punishment" to stay out of the media and limelight as far as the ATF went.
It`s blindingly obvious.
LOL read what I just posted.
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I did read the load of crap and it proves my point.
You are not that stupid.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
I did read the load of crap and it proves my point.
You are not that stupid.
The fact that he has been caught selling Stolen military weapons and stealing beanie babies proves your point? Man put the bong down.
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Originally posted by Raider179
The fact that he has been caught selling Stolen military weapons and stealing beanie babies proves your point? Man put the bong down.
He was never 'caught" selling military weapons and the other is crap.
Would you like to buy a Mojave Battleship? I have one left.........cheap.
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"THE GREAT AMERICAN GUN WAR
Barry Bruce-Briggs
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"(3) The BATF also made the grave error of providing the organized gun owners with their first martyr. In Maryland, in 1971, a local pillar of the community, -- a boy scout leader, volunteer fireman, and gun collector -- was in his bathtub when a group o f armed men in beards and rough clothes -- BATF agents -- broke through the door. Understandably, he reached for a handy antique cap-and-ball pistol and was shot four times and left on the floor while his wife, still in her underwear, was dragged screamin g from the apartment. What had happened was that a local boy reported a hand grenade in the apartment. There was, but it was only the shell of a hand grenade. A simple records check would have been adequate to establish the resident's bona fides, and if t here was an interest in following up the matter, someone might have come and knocked on his door. He is now crippled for life."
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Originally posted by Jackal1
He was never 'caught" selling military weapons and the other is crap.
Would you like to buy a Mojave Battleship? I have one left.........cheap.
Court papers filed in Charlotte indicate that the investigation, dubbed Operation Longfuse, began about March 1996. With the help of an unidentified informant, agents discovered that Gregory Roland Pruess, 35, of Boone, had bought and was distributing military explosives and weapons, according to the court papers.
Pruess, who had been doing business in 1994 under the name of the North Carolina Military Museum in Blowing Rock, pleaded guilty in 1996 to unlawfully transferring firearms and weapons. He served a year in prison.
The court papers said that after government agents found out that Pruess was again involved with illegal firearms, they went under cover to investigate him. They approached Pruess, the documents said, and bought 16 blocks of C-4 plastic explosive from him as well as several high-powered machine guns, anti-personnel land mines, rocket warheads and other weapons.
Sounds pretty cut and dry. Guess they set him up again huh? lmao
And I guess him stealing Toys on videotape guess that is a setup too huh? lmao
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Originally posted by Jackal1
"THE GREAT AMERICAN GUN WAR
Barry Bruce-Briggs
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"(3) The BATF also made the grave error of providing the organized gun owners with their first martyr. In Maryland, in 1971, a local pillar of the community, -- a boy scout leader, volunteer fireman, and gun collector -- was in his bathtub when a group o f armed men in beards and rough clothes -- BATF agents -- broke through the door. Understandably, he reached for a handy antique cap-and-ball pistol and was shot four times and left on the floor while his wife, still in her underwear, was dragged screamin g from the apartment. What had happened was that a local boy reported a hand grenade in the apartment. There was, but it was only the shell of a hand grenade. A simple records check would have been adequate to establish the resident's bona fides, and if t here was an interest in following up the matter, someone might have come and knocked on his door. He is now crippled for life."
elfie.org pretty good unbiased source huh? lmao I told you quit wasting both our time, this is pointless and proves absolutely nothing.
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And who`s court records were these?
He said, she said.
What did you expect them to say? LMAO
You are not that gullible either.........and you are a lousy troll. :)
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Originally posted by Raider179
elfie.org pretty good unbiased source huh? lmao I told you quit wasting both our time, this is pointless and proves absolutely nothing.
I couldn`t answer the question about elfie.org since I know nothing about the site, never been there, but I would take the word on the street to heart before I would Federal documents on a Federal case. It`s called C.Y.O.A. and it is used often.
If you ever go into the chicken business be sure to buy a fox to guard the henhouse. :)
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Originally posted by Jackal1
And who`s court records were these?
He said, she said.
What did you expect them to say? LMAO
You are not that gullible either.........and you are a lousy troll. :)
Whatever you think, but you just showed me you have your eyes closed.
Pruess had been arrested in 1994 for unlawfully transferring firearms and weapons. He served one year and one day in prison. On Sept. 27, he told the undercover Marine to go to the Abingdon Mini-Warehouse in Abingdon, Va., where he purchased a loaded Russian machine gun, 19 Russian hand grenades, plastic explosives and rockets.
It was an NCIS and the FBI who busted him the second time. ATF wasn't even involved. Like I said, great guy you are defending, he's stealing explosives and weapons from our soldiers. I'd say that borders on treason.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
I couldn`t answer the question about elfie.org since I know nothing about the site, never been there, but I would take the word on the street to heart before I would Federal documents on a Federal case. It`s called C.Y.O.A. and it is used often.
If you ever go into the chicken business be sure to buy a fox to guard the henhouse. :)
That's funny every one of your "Ninja" stories comes right off it.