Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kurfürst on September 12, 2005, 06:49:37 AM
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Note : Both Bf 109 G-10 and K-4 used the same type(s) of engines, namely :
DB 605DM
DB 605 DB/DC. The latter could be converted into each other, 605DB running on 87 octane 'B-4' fuel for 1.8ata and 1800/1850 PS at SL, 1600PS at 6km, as opposed the DC`s maximal boost of 1.98ata with 96 octane 'C-3' fuel, for 2000 PS at SL and 1800 at 4.9km, both achieved with the built-in MW 50 injection.
The output of the DB/DC engines were the same above 6000m, under which the DC was more power, if at higher boost.
Summary of the clearance 1.98ata/2000 HP for the DB 605DC and the Bf 109G-10/K-4 story - so far :
Early troubles.
So far we seem to know DB cleared the 1.98ata rating somewhere before Jan 1945, and released it to the troops and Gen Galland, probably in december 1944 : the first known, being the third edition already, DB 605 DB/DC manual was issued on the 5th December 1944, and already noted 1.98ata.
Furthermore, referecences to 1.98ata were made in various docs from December 1944 :
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1122509831_198_drehzahl.jpg)
The clearance of 1.98ata p*ssed some guys at Rechlin out, since several tests done with 1.98ata in early January - such as one that tested four different VDM airscrews - showed the engines failed at the rating, to which DB replied to that their previous test runs at 1.98ata were positive.
It was agreed in mid-January, 1945, to test the rating at 'Gruppe 2/11' before released to troops, along with 1.8 and 1.9ata ratings :
"Nach Lage der Dinge wird denn festgelegt, dass vorläufig die Erprobung des Ladedruckes 1,98 ata nur bei der Gruppe 2/11 durchgeführt werden darf, und dass im übrigen nur die bereits angelaufenen Erprobungen mit 1,9 ata zu Ende geführt werden dürfen bis die entsprechenden Motoren ausgefallen sind. Der Nachschub für diese Motoren darf dann nur mit Motoren mit Einstellung 1,8 ata Ladedruck erfolgen. Bei Nichtbeachtung dieses Befehls wird strenge Bestrafung angedroht. Die Genehemigung zur Einstellung 1,98 ata darf ausschliesslich nur durch die Abtlg. VI des Generalstabes erteilt werden.
Seitens der Herren das Che*****. wird vorgeschlagen, evtl. auch einzelnen Aufklärer mit dem Ladedruck 1,98 ata auszurüsten. Eine Entscheidung hierüber ist jedoch nicht gafällt worden.
Zur thermischen Entlastung der mit 1,98 ata und 1,90 ata eingestellten Motoren wird festgelegt, dass auch diese das spätgestellte Zündprogramm erhalten. Somit werden also all Motoren, die mit der sogenannten Sondernotleistung geflogen werden, auf die späte Zündung umgestellt."
Translation :
"After the delays in the matter, it has been laid down, that testing of 1.98ata manifold pressure is foreseen to be proceeded with only with the Gruppe 2/11, otherwise only the already initiated tests in process with 1.9ata manifold pressure are to be completed, until the the said engines fail. The replacements for these engines should be with the 1.8ata setup only. Not following this order will result in severe punishment. Permission for adjusting for 1.98ata can only be given in cooperation with Department VI. of the General Staff.
On behalf of the Chief Engineer`s men it has been presented, that it may be possible to equip single fighter-recons to 1.98ata manifold presure. Decision has not been taken on this yet.
Delayed ignition is to be used with engines at 1.9ata and 1.98ata setups, as a result of the termal load that had been observed with them. Therefore all engines, that are flown with the abovementioned Sondernotleistungs, are to be set to delayed ignition."
See : Niderschrift Nr. 6730 (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/db-minute-6730.pdf) Daimler-Benz AG, Sektor Entwicklung. 20.1.45
Butch2k says the 1.98ata clearance came in late February, after the trials were successfull, but there was some delay, probably due to finding the correct spark plugs etc.
It is also known that a maintaince document was issued at that time, namely Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion, in 14 March 1945 which tells the details of converting the 1.8ata capabe 605DB into the 1.98ata capable DC version.
Moreover this document tells that "C-3 fuel is available for use in unreduced quality", as opposed to B-4:
"Sämtliche Änderungen sind durch die Forderung bedingt, für die leistungsgesteigerten Motoren auch B4 Kraftstoff minderer Qualität ohne Gefahr verwenden zu können. Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben;"
... which makes claims about specific shortage of C-3 fuel, that was required for 1.98ata operation, doubtful, C-3 was appearantly not any more on short supply than any other fuel in 1945.
Furthermore, it is proven that C-3 was not some kind of ultra-rare fuel curiosity, but a major volume of aviation produced in Germany in the 2nd half of the war.
From the "TECHNICAL REPORT NO. 145-45, MANUFACTURE OF AVIATION GASOLINE IN GERMANY, 2. Supply and Composition of Aviation Gasolines, "prepeared by the U.S. Naval Mission to Germany after the surrender. The original can be found at the Fishcer-Tropsch archives :
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_doc..._145_45_toc.htm (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/tech_rpt_145_45/rpt_145_45_toc.htm)
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_doc...20and%20sources (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/tech_rpt_145_45/rpt_145_45_sec2.htm#Supply%20and%20sources).
"(B) Composition and Specifications
There were two (2) grades of aviation gasoline produced in volume in Germany one the B-4 or blue grade and the other the C-3 or green grade. Both grades were loaded with the equivalent of 4.35 cubic centimeters tetraethyl lead per gallon. The B-4 grade was simply a fraction of the gasoline product from coal and coal tar hydrogenation. It contained normally 10 to 15 percent volume aromatics, 45 percent volume naphthenes, and the remainder paraffins. The octane number was 89 by a measurement corresponding to the C.F.R. motor method. The C-3 grade was a mixture of 10 to 15 percent volume of synthetic isoparaffins (alkylates and isooctanes) and 85 percent of an aromatized base stock produced by hydroforming types of operation on coal and coal tar hydrogenation gasolines. The C-3 grade was permitted to contain not more than 45 percent volume aromatics. This aromatic limitation sometimes required that the base stock component include some diluents other than the aromatic fraction, which could then be balanced if necessary by the inclusion of slightly more isoparaffin. (The C-3 grade corresponded roughly to the U. S. grade 130 gasoline, although the octane number of C-3 was specified to be only 95 and its lean mixture performance was somewhat poorer.)
The components of the two grades were therefore simple and few in number. The isoparaffins were produced by standard, well known methods and there was nothing abnormal found in their compositions. The base stocks were fractionated to and points of 300 to 320 degrees Fahrenheit. No normal isopentane separation was carried out and the pentane and butane contents were adjusted simply for vapor pressure control. Small amounts of specially synthesized aromatic compounds were included from time to time but no regular large scale use of such materials was practiced. No aromatic olefines or other special additives were used.
Oxidation inhibitors were not used in the regular blended aviation gasolines. It will be seen that the components were in general of such nature that addition inhibition should not have been necessary. Lead depositions from fuels was an operating problem, however, but no inhibitors were used for its prevention. This lead instability was believed to be related to aromatic content and fear of lead deposits was a reason for the limitation of the aromatic contents of the two grades.
The relative volumes of production of the two grades cannot be accurately given, but in the last war years the major volume, perhaps two-thirds (2/3) of this total has the C-3 grade. Every effort was being made toward the end of the war to increase isoparaffin production so that C-3 volume could be increased for fighter plane use. The isoparaffin usage in that grade had already been cut to a minimum."
Some details of the actual supplies of C-3 fuel to the Bf 109 units in 1945 :
The following relates to the use of C-3 fuel by the Axis-Italian air force in the last stages of the war. I guess they were not preferred over genuie Luftwaffe units in being supplied with high octane fuel.
Via the Hungarian edition of :
Beale-D`Amico-Valentini : "Air War Italy, 1944-45: The Axis Air Forces from the Liberation of Rome to the Surrender"
Airlife Publishing, Ltd. (January, 1996) ISBN: 1853102520
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1853102520.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.gif) (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1126475865_beale.jpg)
Aircrafts on hand,the Order of Battle of the ANR (the Axis-allied northern italian airforce) during 22nd April 1945 :
Bf 109s
7 x G-6s
27 x G-14s
39 x G-10
3 x K-4s
2 x G-12 trainers
Futher 12 S.79 transports, I take these operated on B-4.
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As seen, the most important engine was the DB 605D in the 109K and G-10, developing 1850 PS w. B-4 fuel and 2000 HP w. C-3 fuel.
The DB 605 A and AM engines of the G-6/G-14 could run on either fuel, but the output would remain the same.
The fuel stocks were as the following during the same period, during April 1945, and suggest that the primary fuel used by the Italian 109s was C-3.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1126472785_anr_fuel1945.jpg)
It`s doubtful that the Italians would enjoy some kind of 'special treatment' and priority in being supplied with high quality fuel over the own Luftwaffe units.
Introduction of 1.98ata into service occured during March 1945 :
Orders issued to units to increase boost pressure to 1.98ata, according to a classified order dated 20th March 1945 from the LW high command (OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45) :
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1126475124_p43.jpg (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1126475124_p43.jpg) http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1126475218_p45.jpg (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1126475218_p45.jpg)
via :
Fritz X. Kober - Jakob Maria Mathmann : The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Vol.2. Schiffer Publishing, 1996.
"The development in the equipment status of day fighter units is based on the standard types laid down in the emergency program and anticipates :
for Bf 109 units : K-4
for FW 190 units : D-9, D-12 with changeover to Ta 152 H and C
The arrival of the Ta 152 and it`s assignment to FW 190 units will result in an improvement in the equipment status of these units.
Essentially Bf 109 development will conclude with the K-4 an will inevitably lead to the conversion of Bf 109 units - those not scheduled for disbandment - to TL (jet fighters). Homogeneity of the equipment is to be strived for, combination of similar types is temporary and to be accepted based on levels of production."
The proposed changes to units equipped with Bf 109 were as follows :
OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45
No. Unit Present type Convert to Notes
1. III./ JG 1 Bf 109 G-10 He 162 (April/May) -
2. II. / JG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
3. III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
4. III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
5. IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 K-4 -
6. III. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
7. IV. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
8. III. / JG 6 Bf 109 G-14/AS K-4 when deliveries permit -
9. II. / JG 11 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
10. I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
11. II. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
13. I. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
14. III. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
15. IV. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
16. II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
17. III. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
18. II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
19. III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
20. IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
21. I. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
22. II. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
23. III. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
24. III. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 planned, deadline
25. IV. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 -
26. I. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
27. II. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 K-4 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
30. I. / KG(J) 27 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
31. I. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 G-10/R6 - -
32. II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4 - to industrial defense
33. Ist Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
34. IInd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
35. IIIrd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
FROM
Fritz X. Kober - Jakob Maria Mathmann : The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Vol.2. Schiffer Publishing, 1996. English edition.
This order notes in relation of I./JG 27, III./JG 27, III./JG 53, IV./JG 53 to increase the maximum boost pressures to 1,98 ata manifold pressure. It is not known if and how many units had converted to 1,98ata before that order came, but it should be noted these units, in particular III./JG 27, III./JG 53 and IV./JG 53 were the major users of the Bf 109 K-4 in the Lufwaffe.
It is also known these were the Bf 109 units in 1945 that stayed in the West and continued to perform actions against the Western Allies, as opposed to the most of the Jagdwaffe that tied to slow the down the Red advance in the east.
The four Wings/Gruppes tasked to increase boost pressure to 1.98ata could still muster considerable strenght - and basically they were the only units remaining on the Western front in the last months.
Overview of unit strenghts for the units that used 1,98ata. As per 9th April 1945.
Source : Alfred Price : The Last year of the Luftwaffe
Unit - On hand - Servicable
I./JG 27 - 29 - 13
III./JG 27 - 19 - 15
III./JG 53 - 40 - 24
IV./JG 53 - 54 - 27
---------------------
Total : 142 on hand, out of which 79 is servicable at the given date
Picture of Bf 109K Werknummer 334 210, taken in 1945 :
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1126525488_wrk334_210-1.jpg)
Thus ends the sermon :)
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It seems like many other a/c types that the 109K-4 and 109G-10 had several varients (for lack of a better term), used during the war. That some flew at 1.98 ata I dont think is in question, but rather what type would best be representative in the game of a typical version.
Like most ac modelled in AH, its not going to get 3 different varients of one type each representing a specific fuel and engine type that saw service. Its unlikely we will ever see that.
Personally I dont think that 150hp would make much of a difference either way, in any case, for all the debate about it .
I think the 109K-4 running at 1.98 ata is equivelant in game terms to a Spitfire XIV at 25 lbs boost. They both represent the "absolute best possible" wartime varients of each type.
As it is I think we will probably see a 1.8 ata 109K-4 and a +21 lb boost Spitfire XIV in AH.
...Plus a 100 octane Tempest, as opposed to a 150 octane version.
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What unit is the 109 from, in the photo?
The four Wings/Gruppes tasked to increase boost pressure to 1.98ata could still muster considerable strenght - and basically they were the only units remaining on the Western front in the last months.
You mean 109 units, right?
56% sevicability of the under strength Gruppen is considerable strength? If you say so.
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It seems like many other a/c types that the 109K-4 and 109G-10 had several varients (for lack of a better term), used during the war. That some flew at 1.98 ata I dont think is in question, but rather what type would best be representative in the game of a typical version.
Totally agree Squire.
To add to that:
If you are going to include things like boost pressures that were cleared only in the last few weeks of the war then it must be done across the board for game balance. I am speaking about all aircraft, not just the 109, Spitfire, or whatever. Otherwise you will have 1944 aircraft flying against 1945 variants.
Additionally all aircraft have a rather wide range of performance in reality. Production aircraft vary based on percentage which the manufacturer guarentees.
Where we get into trouble is trying to nail this performance down to an "exact" value. Airplanes simply do not work that way. Especially when the extreme's of these percentages are modeled and then mismatched. To put it another way, it is not representative to take the high value from one aircraft and match it against the low value for it's opponent.
IMHO, this does not need to be a bad thing. It gives gamemakers a rather large swath of "realistic" performance and the ability to model a balanced game enviroment.
All the best,
Crumpp
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If that's what the 109s topped out at, so be it, but then you better not complain about Spit LFIX/XVIs with +25 boost either :)
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What if we were to have a fuel option when selecting our aircraft and Perk the higher octane!!
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Originally posted by Squire
I think the 109K-4 running at 1.98 ata is equivelant in game terms to a Spitfire XIV at 25 lbs boost. They both represent the "absolute best possible" wartime varients of each type.
As it is I think we will probably see a 1.8 ata 109K-4 and a +21 lb boost Spitfire XIV in AH.
Not really, the 1.98ata 109K-4 is equaivalent of the +21 lbs boost Spit XIV, for simply +25 was never cleared for the Spit XIV`s engine. From what I`ve seen, the first mentioning of +21 lbs XIVs facing enemy fighters is from March 1945, that`s the earliest documented date, but maybe two months before in January. Coincidently, a 109K wing was also using 1.98ata for operational trials in January ('Gruppe 2/11', I suppose II/JG11, didn`t check).
A +25 lbs XIV`s equivalent would be the 2.3ata 109K at around 2300 PS, as both were strongly wanted but did not make it until the wars end.
Besides.... the 1.8ata version should be with the G-10 or G-14/AS imho, for their performance is very similiar.
Guppy, nobody says no to +25lbs IXs... they saw service, in fact far more service than XIVs, low or high boosted. Add to that the +25lbs IX is a perfect match for the G-14 in both timeframe and performance.
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Spit XIV (and other fighters, some USAAF) were using 150 octane to chase V-1s from July 44 (that was the original use for the fuel), and 2nd TAF was cleared for 150 octane in general use from @November 1944.
150 Octane XIVs ran at 25 lbs boost, as did the LF IXs.
"Late Mark Spitfire Aces" Alfred Price page 67: "For these operations some Spit XIVs had thier engines modified to run on 150 octane". - Reffering to the anti V-1 missions.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14speedns.jpg
...however, the inclusion of 150 octane "versions" is unlikely to represent "typical varients".
That was my point.
As for the 1.98 ata 109K-4 you quote various sources, some of which are contradictory. I really have no idea when 1.98 was the "norm" for 109K-4s. I will leave that to those who have more data than myself.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Coincidently, a 109K wing was also using 1.98ata for operational trials in January ('Gruppe 2/11', I suppose II/JG11, didn`t check).
Nice spin you put on to try to make like there was a large number of K-4s when even in your own article you say only 11 K-4s + 38 G-14s in JG11. Eleven a/c is only a staffel not a Gruppen(wing). A :( attempt at twisting data.
Didn't check. How forgetful you are when it is convient for you. You participated in theads that discissed whether it was II. or 2.
Also, nice spin you put for C3 fuel. So how much C3 did the Italians receive after that initial delivery in Dec. 44 when the fuel shortage was not as critical? And, what use did the Italians have for J-2???
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Nice spin you put on to try to make like there was a large number of K-4s when even in your own article you say only 11 K-4s + 38 G-14s in JG11. Eleven a/c is only a staffel not a Gruppen(wing). A :( attempt at twisting data.
Didn't check. How forgetful you are when it is convient for you. You participated in theads that discissed whether it was II. or 2.
Also, nice spin you put for C3 fuel. So how much C3 did the Italians receive after that initial delivery in Dec. 44 when the fuel shortage was not as critical? And, what use did the Italians have for J-2???
Actually I think he means the 109-G10s being used for operational testing.
Trying at the moment to get a document enlarged and cleared up that is dated 1 day before OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45 thats shows LW units and the fuel they are using.
All 4 K4 untis are listed as using B4 which incidently should finally clear up the "it is not known how many or if K4 units changed prior to the order". Obvioulsy they DIDN'T.
Nothing new in his original post, same old rehash of suppositions, and assumptions.
Actaully how many of the directives from
OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45
actually were carried out?
Plus why not mention that Butch who says February clearance for ata1.98 also mentions C3 fuel shortage in the same paragraph? Nice how you pick and choose from the same source.
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And just to clarify when I compared the Spit XIV at 25lbs and the 109K-4 at 1.98 ata I was not making a direct comparison regarding the engine hp output. I was simply saying that both those a/c represent an improvement over the initial types that were issued, and that "at some later point..." they got the extra hp, through better fuel, and that the onus is on us to illustrate why either should be modelled as the "standard" in the game.
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Can you show some documentation about the +25lbs in the Spit XIV? All I have ever seen for that is a calculated sea level speed of 390mph. So far as I know the Spit XIV never exceeded +21lbs boost, at least not during the war.
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It didn't exceed 21lbs during the war, but it was tested up to 25lbs boost (2400+ HP!!!).
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Well if the +21 lbs was achieved on 100/130, I cant see them putting 150 into in to run at the same boost.
My book could be wrong, but it states a speed of 400 mph at 2000 feet for XIVs modded to run on 150 gas for anti V-1 missions.
Unless the 150 stuff was only given to the IXs and P-51s. You guys tell me.
EDIT: I realised im in danger of hijacking the topic here, so lets drop this and start another thread on that if you have any more info, the thread was re 109K-4s at 1.98 ata.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually I think he means the 109-G10s being used for operational testing.
Trying at the moment to get a document enlarged and cleared up that is dated 1 day before OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45 thats shows LW units and the fuel they are using.
[/B]
Please do that. Clear up that document so clear so that everyone can see what it shows : title saying it`s for Luftlotte 6 in March 1945, it operated in the Eastern Front through most of the war, inc. 1945. Quit clear, really.
Besided if one takes a look on the 6730 DB memo from Jan 1945 can find one such sentence :
"Da die einstatz im Osten vornemlich mit B4 geflogen wird..."
"As the operations in the East will be primarly flown on B4..."
... and it becomes quite obvious why the March 1945 strenght and fuel situation report for the Eastern Luftwaffe units tells B-4 fuel is being used. It was planned this way from the beginning, eastern units relying on B4 and older types of aircraft, while western ones getting the high-end equipment.
Besides, the emphasis and specifically mentioning that the Eastern front units primarly rely on B4.... makes you think then the Eastern front was special in this regard that it was specially noted.
Originally posted by Kev367th
All 4 K4 untis are listed as using B4 which incidently should finally clear up the "it is not known how many or if K4 units changed prior to the order".Obvioulsy they DIDN'T.
[/B]
Obviously some did, since it`s known that Gruppe 2/11 already did in January, that documented. The March 1945 doc otoh only mentions which units will convert to 1.98ata, not which are the ones running on it, so there may be other, we don`t know.
Besides as noted, the blurry doc you have so high hopes for, is showing the units of the Luftflotte 6 on the eastern front in March 1945. It doesn`t tell anything before or after March 1945, neither about the other fronts ETO and MTO. Not to say there were WAY more units operating the 109K than just four, but since you are so much fond of the types operational career, you can list those others us, can`t you? Of course you can`t, you just make the noise, having nothing better...
Nothing new in his original post, same old rehash of suppositions, and assumptions..
[/B]
I think everyone can make up their own mind on that, without someone playing mind police.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Also, nice spin you put for C3 fuel. So how much C3 did the Italians receive after that initial delivery in Dec. 44 when the fuel shortage was not as critical? And, what use did the Italians have for J-2???
They got plenty more. You can get that information from the ANR book. It`s only 70-odd USD. Buy it, cheapo.
As for the J-2 fuel, they used it for the Jumo 004 jet turbines, of course.
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Originally posted by Squire
Well if the +21 lbs was achieved on 100/130, I cant see them putting 150 into in to run at the same boost.
[/B]
+18 lbs achieved on 100/130, +21 was achieved on 150 grade fuel.
My book could be wrong, but it states a speed of 400 mph at 2000 feet for XIVs modded to run on 150 gas for anti V-1 missions. [/B]
You book is correct, I`ve got that XIV test, it was tested along with Tempest and Mustang3 to get an effective buzzbomb chaser, the planes themselves had some equipment removed for extra performance, ie. the Spitty was stripped of the wingtips, mirror, racks and some minor items, the leading edge was repainted. However at +25 lbs boost the engine developed troubles during the test, and the results were actually extrapolated from existing data. I doubt the boost ever saw more use than this test, even the summer 1945 Spitty 21 tests note +21 lbs as the boost limit with 150 grade.
Unless the 150 stuff was only given to the IXs and P-51s. You guys tell me.[/B]
Not only for them, but in `44, it was still a rare item for about half a dozen squadrons chasing the V-1s, incl XIV, most of the 150 stuff going to the USAAF`s units.
The boost diffo cause is in the engine, the IX/51`s Merlin was cleared up to +25 lbs, but the Griffon would only take +21 - different animals after all - one document from summer 1944 notes the cause being main bearing troubles. High boost could be only used with the use of 150 grade fuel, which was only available in Britain, so when in Sept44 the XIVs left for the continent, they had to run on +18 again until the 2nd TAF too received 150 grade fuel in January 1945. Basically the highly boosted versions saw very little anti-fighter engagement until 1945, for they were too busy fighting V-1s, and not too many of them around, then because leaving Britain. The true, serious use began in January 1945, when some 30 Sqns of IXs/XVIs were planned to switch to 150 grade, and the Wing with XIVs.
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Originally posted by Squire
As for the 1.98 ata 109K-4 you quote various sources, some of which are contradictory. I really have no idea when 1.98 was the "norm" for 109K-4s. I will leave that to those who have more data than myself.
It was certainly not norm until 1945. From March 1945, you can say it was norm though, since all the four 109 Wings that left to guard the Eastern Front - JG 27 and JG 53 - were using 1.98ata, while the others transferred to the EF and tried to do something against the Red Flood.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
They got plenty more. You can get that information from the ANR book. It`s only 70-odd USD. Buy it, cheapo.
As for the J-2 fuel, they used it for the Jumo 004 jet turbines, of course.
Typical, you resort to insults when you got caught in a lie or manipulating info. So :( .
What jet a/c did the Italians have?
The norm? Only in someones dreams.
OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45
No. Unit Present type
1. III./ JG 1 Bf 109 G-10
2. II. / JG Bf 109 G-10
3. III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4
4. III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4
5. IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4
6. III. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14
7. IV. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14
8. III. / JG 6 Bf 109 G-14/AS
9. II. / JG 11 Bf 109 G-10
10. I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
11. II. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10
12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
13. I. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14
14. III. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14
15. IV. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14
16. II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4
17. III. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14
18. II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4
19. III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
20. IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
21. I. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-14/U4
22. II. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10
23. III. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10
24. III. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6
25. IV. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6
26. I. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 G-10/R6
27. II. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 K-4
30. I. / KG(J) 27 Bf 109 G-10/R6
31. I. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 G-10/R6
32. II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4
33. Ist Italian FG Bf 109 G-10
34. IInd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10
35. IIIrd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10
The norm ??? when only 40% of the OoB is the understrength Gruppen that were authorized to use 1.98. Only you Barbi could spin such a incredulous tale.
So nice of you to claim that 11 a/c were a Gruppen that was operationally testing 1.98. The key word is testing.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
It was certainly not norm until 1945. From March 1945, you can say it was norm though, since all the four 109 Wings that left to guard the Eastern Front - JG 27 and JG 53 - were using 1.98ata, while the others transferred to the EF and tried to do something against the Red Flood.
Prove it, produce ONE document the proves they were using it. Don't base your claim on a document that PROPOSES they use it.
Can't say it was the 'norm' at all. It's your guess.
As for Italian use of C3 - Fine, doesn't prove the Italians used 1.98ata either.
Remember - 1.98ata NEEDS C3, not vice versa, use of C3 does not mean 1.98ata.
Anyway look, you keep on posting this on a regular basis, you are still no further forward to posting on piece of concrete evidence.
Yes we can all assume, suppose, and guess, doesn't mean squat without something to prove it.
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Have to agree Kev. Only he could come up with such a Alice in Wunderland story.
On fuel, those 79 operational K-4s required 31,600l (79 x 400) of fuel for just one mission. Add another 23,700l (79 x 300) for drop tanks. Total for one mission by the 79 K-4s > 55,300l or 12,165 Impgal.
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It's like his quest to prove K4s had active flettners fitted, despite being told by Butch that EVERY picture he has seen of a K4 with flettners shows them missing the actuating arm.
And that in fact they were locked down.
What I would be interested in -
The document he keeps on referring to stating the 4 K4 ubits are to convert to 1.98ata.
How many of those directives on that document were carried out in total?
I.e it also proposes something like an extra 20 K4 units, how many got them? Just in total on that document, how many happened?
Just put a Y or N after each entry.
No. Unit Present type Convert to Notes
1. III./ JG 1 Bf 109 G-10 He 162 (April/May) -
2. II. / JG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
3. III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
4. III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
5. IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 K-4 -
6. III. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
7. IV. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
8. III. / JG 6 Bf 109 G-14/AS K-4 when deliveries permit -
9. II. / JG 11 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
10. I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
11. II. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
13. I. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
14. III. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
15. IV. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
16. II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
17. III. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
18. II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
19. III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
20. IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
21. I. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
22. II. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
23. III. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
24. III. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 planned, deadline
25. IV. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 -
26. I. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
27. II. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 K-4 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
30. I. / KG(J) 27 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
31. I. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 G-10/R6 - -
32. II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4 - to industrial defense
33. Ist Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
34. IInd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
35. IIIrd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
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Now lets look at the C3 fuel required for one mission by the 1091 servicable BMW powered Fw190s on April 9 1945, without droptanks.
1091 x 640l = 698,240l or 153,594Impgal
And he wants us to believe than the puny number of K-4s requiring C3 for 1.98 operation would get presidence over the 190, especially since a goodly number of those 190s were FBs being used to try to stop the Red Horde, he says the Reich was so preoccupied in stopping.
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Not only that -
1) Standard off the prod line K4's could use C3 and B4 fuel.
2) If a K4 was converted to 1.98ata it HAD to have C3
3) Reversion to B4 could not be carried out at unit level (Butch from another thread somewhere here)
4) 190's HAD to have C3
This was at a stage in the war were other units (prod, transport, training etc) supplies of fuel was being drastically reduced in order to divert it to the frontline units.
So barring any concrete evidence to the contrary "we can safely assume" it would make sense to leave the K4 capable of using both types of fuel because the 190's had to have C3.
All he does have is -
a) A couple of units of G10 NOT K4 used 1.98ata in Jan 1945 for operational testing only.
b) Butch says clearance was in Feb 1945 (he also says a scarcity of C3)
c) A proposal in Mar 1945
d) 79 serviceable K4 AND G10's in April 1945
Doesn't add up to K4s used 1.98ata.
What he's missing is something that shows conversion took place.
Milo - I'm not going into this with him again. It's the same old stuff just rehashed.
He's been asked now for who knows how long to post 1 piece of solid evidence.
You can't rely on a proposal and then use that to say it must of happened.
RE: The doc I am trying to get blown up and cleaned up, two out of the 3 units you list are shown as using B4 on it.
The original has now been removed form the JGIII website :(.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
As for Italian use of C3 - Fine, doesn't prove the Italians used 1.98ata either.
Remember - 1.98ata NEEDS C3, not vice versa, use of C3 does not mean 1.98ata.
Lot`s of words, ZERO documentation gents. You can make you guesses if you wish.
What was the word... it`s 'pissing against the wind'.
C-3 use doesn`t prove 1.98ata was used, true, but funnily at the same time, the MiloMoron argues with home fabricated numbers that C-3 was so much needed by FW 190 units that it wasn`t allowed
Hmm... let`s see the two claims together. if C-3 was really that scare, and so much needed by 190 units, than how come that even Italian units, hardly preferred by the Germans who supplied them, got their MAJORITY of fuel shipments even when it wasn`t neccesary? Perhaps it had something to do with the Fishcer-Tropsch report that says 2/3, the majority of the fuel production was C-3.
Give it up, you can make more noise, I can`t care, nor others, there`s so much evidence around, and there`ll probably more in the future, that .
Every single doubt, and way of denial that was made up by naysayers that could be was researched - if there was C-3 avaiable for 109s, if the 1.98ata was cleared for service use, if 1.98ata was ordered to several units for use - and evidence was provided.
And the trouble is, the introduction of 1.98ata is way better documented than the introduction of +21 lbs to the XIV. Any of the doubts casts on the introduction of 1.98ata hurts twice as bad the XIV, since there`s no documentation at all about how many Sqns finally converted to it, for how long time, or wheter these units receieved the neccesary fuel for it. They probably did, but let`s play the same game, and then it becomes they didn`t.
Now enough of the nonsense, against the evidence, it`s just mute shouting on your part.
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Wouldn't matter if only ONE squadron of Spit 14 used 21lbs boost, at least there are squadron records and pilot reports showing they did.
That would still be one more than you've proved.
eg
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no610orb.jpg)
Not an order from the Ministry of Defence saying they propose to go to 21lbs, a sqn level daily report showing they WERE being or already HAD been converted.
All I'm asking for is something similar in return that proves converison took place, not that an order was issued.
It took from 20th Nov 1944 (order for 2TAF to use 150 grade) until Jan 1945 for the first units to start converting.
Thats about the same time from the German order to convert, to the end of the war. (6 weeks - ish)
The intent to go to 1.98ata is clear, what you haven't proved is that the intent translated into anything at K4 unit levels.
Why drag the Spit 14 into it anyway? You know there is squadron level reports showing 21lbs boost, not a lot but they did.
Like I said even if only one used it, it's one more squadron than K4 unit than you can show used 1.98ata.
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Kev, he drags the Spit XIV into the discussion as he is loosing, ie his story is so full of holes a bolder would fall through, and it diverts the discussion away from 1.98. His typical tactic. Next he will have the Mods lock down the thread as he does over at the Zoo when his Goebbel's like speels are shot down.
His comprhension ability is severly limited. If he reads the F-T text properly he will see that it states in the last years of the war and also states probably. So nothing definate on the quantity and nothing for the last 6 months. The F-T link also gives the quanity produced in 1943, not 1945. Even if the 2/3 is taken at face value, the 190s required 96.6% of the production. Not much left over for other a/c using the BMW801 and he wants us to believe that his 4 Gruppen would get some.
Now lets look at some of his other lack of comprehension:
- claims 11 a/c is a Gruppen, when in fact it is only a staffel.
- he claims that 1.98 units were the norm when it was only 40% of the OoB and that is only if they had totaly converted.
- he claims I stated C3 was not allowed when in fact I said the 190s would have preference.
- he claims authorization of 1.98 means it was used but provides no documentation from Gruppen level unlike documentation showing the Spit XIV squadrons were using 21lb boost.
- he posts a doctored document to show the Italians were getting C3 which also shows the Italians having J2 for which they had no use for. The document also states until Dec 1 1944. Nothing about receiving any in 1945.
Kev, I guess Barbi has told the webmaster to remove the item as it puts a hole in his Alice in Wunderland story. If a lie is told often enough somehow it becomes the truth so every time he posts his stories they must be shown for what they are, a story.
No fabrication Barbi. Those numbers come from the Alfred Price source you have quoted. So if my numbers are fabrication, what does that make yours?:eek:
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Yada-yada-yada. :lol
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Yada-yada-yada. :lol
Truth hurts doesn't it Barbi? :rofl :aok
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Hi,
cant you stop this crappy polemics while discussing??
To attack each other dont help to prove or disprove the subject, it only make all your comments less credible.
We know that there are some hints that 1,98 got used in different squads, we also know that there are not many german documents from 1945 left.
I think it would be strange to think that the LW did test 1,98 in late 1944, but never did use it.
That the 1.98 got used relative often while combat seems to be likely to me, although its not 100% proofed, that 1.98 dont got used is even more a speculation, but also possible.
So what?? The Spit14 (21/25lb) and K4 (1.98, if used at all), was pretty rare in relation to other used planes and therefor not very relewant.
To include the 2000hp K4 as perkplane into AH would, imho, be a nice variation, same like the 25lb Sp14 and the 2250HP 190D9.
Unfortunately this dont would help to fix the bad drag calculations(the Sp5 fly sustained highspeed circles around the Sp9 and 14 lol ). ;)
Please please please, keep the discussians within arguments, i hate the need to read 80% polemical crap, to find 20% usefull stuff.
Greetings, Knegel
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Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,
cant you stop this crappy polemics while discussing??
To attack each other dont help to prove or disprove the subject, it only make all your comments less credible.
We know that there are some hints that 1,98 got used in different squads, we also know that there are not many german documents from 1945 left.
I think it would be strange to think that the LW did test 1,98 in late 1944, but never did use it.
That the 1.98 got used relative often while combat seems to be likely to me, although its not 100% proofed, that 1.98 dont got used is even more a speculation, but also possible.
So what?? The Spit14 (21/25lb) and K4 (1.98, if used at all), was pretty rare in relation to other used planes and therefor not very relewant.
To include the 2000hp K4 as perkplane into AH would, imho, be a nice variation, same like the 25lb Sp14 and the 2250HP 190D9.
Unfortunately this dont would help to fix the bad drag calculations(the Sp5 fly sustained highspeed circles around the Sp9 and 14 lol ). ;)
Please please please, keep the discussians within arguments, i hate the need to read 80% polemical crap, to find 20% usefull stuff.
Greetings, Knegel
Totally agree.
Thats all I have been asking for - PROOF
NOT - assume, guess, presume, etc.
Although he has PROVED the intention to use 1.98ata and that a few units of 109-G10 tested it, he has not even come close to proving it was used with the 3 K4 and single G-10 units listed in the proposed changes.
The biggest factors in my skepticism -
1) The order/proposal is approx 6 weeks from the end of the war.
2) The remaining K4 + G10 (79 approx) list is approx 3-4 weeks form the end of the war.
3) Reversion back to non C3/1.98ata was not possible at unit level ( from Butch), so would assume the reverse was true. i.e. conversion could not be done at unit level.
Put it all together -
Last months of thw war Germant was in ruin, choas, being bombed almost 24hrs day, infrastructure was shot, and yet they would have taken 4 units off-line to convert to 1-98ata when they could fly on C3 or B4 before the conversion. All this within 6 weeks of the original order.
Given it took the RAF from the inital order for 2TAF to use 150 grade in Nov 44, until Jan 1945 before it started happening.
Approx the same 6 week timeframe.
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Hi,
iam not sure if the mechianics wasnt able of the revision to a non C3/1,98 ata engine.
If you look how many improvements on the BMW801 was made by the Geschwader mechanics, which later took place in the normal production, i have no doubt that they was able to make this relative easy revision. It probably dont was possible in the dirt of a simple field base, but the normal bases had good "garages".
But anyway, in the "Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion, in 14 March 1945" Kurfürst saw this as important:
"Moreover this document tells that "C-3 fuel is available for use in unreduced quality", as opposed to B-4:"
"Sämtliche Änderungen sind durch die Forderung bedingt, für die leistungsgesteigerten Motoren auch B4 Kraftstoff minderer Qualität ohne Gefahr verwenden zu können. Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht, werden Motoren 605 ASC und 605 DC, falls sie in dieser Ausführung aufgebaut werden, unverändert wie bisher abgegeben;"
This is the full translation of this text:
All changings underlie the requested to be able to run powerenhanced engines even with lower quality B4 fuel ( they dont say that B4 was in lower quality than before, they only say that B4 was a low quality fuel). Since there is C3 fuel with unreduced quality available, 650ASC and 605DC engines, if they got produced in this model, get unchanged delivered.
With other words: A revision to a non C3/1,98 ata engine wasnt needed, if it got the right adjusting, and they must have delivered ASC and DC engines before "Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion, in 14 March 1945." I think they dont had a C3 shortcomming, but a main fuel support problem, so they wasnt sure if they was able to dring always the right fuel to the squads. Actually at this late day´s many squads did support themself, by flying or driving to fuelstorages. And of course they didnt land always on their own base, where maybe enough C3 was available, but on bases with only B4.
Since this is a Reparatur-Anweisung (repair instruction), i wonder for whom?? For the units maybe?? If yes, they was able to adjust the engines to what ever fule anyway, but this did need time, so they got order to adjust it to all fuels.
But i guess this wouldnt give the highest power anymore.
So my question: For whom was this repair instruction and would a 'main setting' influence the poweroutput?
This "Reparatur-Anleitung" alone actually proof the delivering of ASC and DC engines before 14 March 1945! If this note was made as instruction of the Squad-Mechanics, it proof that this engines got used too!
Greetings, Knegel
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Knegel
My understanding from reading various threads on a little research is -
As standard the K4 could run both C3 and B4 fuel.
Once they had been converted to C3 only, the use of B4 was not allowed.
Reversion to a C3/B4 configuration could not be done at unit level.
You do bring up a interesting point -
"Since there is C3 fuel with unreduced quality available" . This is a totaly different meaning to
"unrestricted quantity available" as Kurfurst has translated it.
Which translation is accurate?
Would also make sense considering they were having problems with C3 fuel quality at the end of 1944.
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Hi (Edit: i was sure i saw a post by Kurfürst before :rolleyes: )
The changing from DB605DB to DC was more difficult than to adjust the ata setting!! At least other spark plugs and a other time of ignition was needed, maybe also a other 'valve worktime'(cam shaft) and/or pistons. Actually i dont know the exact procedure, (Edit-> )i only know it from bike engines, and here all points above are needed to gain a real advantage.
I did read that Butch stated that he think it wasnt possible by the units, but this was a guess, afaik he dont had any documents to prove it.
I just did reread the german 'Reparatur-Anweisung 2', its possible they talk about 1.8ata engines(605DB) in the 1st sentence, so they realy would refer to B4 in low quality, in oposite to my 1st thought(in the way they wrote it, the meaning depends, if they see the 'low quality B4' in relation to former, better B4, or to the in general better C3 fuel) .
Never the less, the delivering of ASC and DC engines is clearely stated!
Greetings,
Knegel
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Hi again,
yes, the DB605DB could run C3, its like using 'Super plus benzine' in a normal 'benzine' car, there was no advantage in this.
But the DB605DC and ASC (both around 2000HP) couldnt run B4 fuel.
Greetings, Knegel
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Originally posted by Knegel
Hi again,
yes, the DB605DB could run C3, its like using 'Super plus benzine' in a normal 'benzine' car, there was no advantage in this.
But the DB605DC and ASC (both around 2000HP) couldnt run B4 fuel.
Greetings, Knegel
Thanks, I thoguht so.
Could you clear up a point in translation -
"Since there is C3 fuel with unreduced quality available"
This is a totaly different meaning to
"unrestricted quantity available" as Kurfurst has translated it.
Which translation is accurate?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
You do bring up a interesting point -
"Since there is C3 fuel with unreduced quality available" . This is a totaly different meaning to
"unrestricted quantity available" as Kurfurst has translated it.
Which translation is accurate?
Kurfürst wrote :
Moreover this document tells that "C-3 fuel is available for use in unreduced quality", as opposed to B-4:
"Da kraftstoff C3 in unverminderter Qualität zur Verfügung steht"
mirror translation :
"as fuel C3 in undreduced quality at disposial is /available"
I wonder if you have problems translating even basic German sentences for yourself, what is the base of your statements.
Would also make sense considering they were having problems with C3 fuel quality at the end of 1944. [/B]
Oh, source please.
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Originally posted by Knegel
Hi (Edit: i was sure i saw a post by Kurfürst before :rolleyes: )
The changing from DB605DB to DC was more difficult than to adjust the ata setting!! At least other spark plugs and a other time of ignition was needed, maybe also a other 'valve worktime'(cam shaft) and/or pistons. Actually i dont know the exact procedure, (Edit-> )i only know it from bike engines, and here all points above are needed to gain a real advantage.
Knegel
The procedures of converting the DB into DC and vica versa are stated in the reperatur anweisung.
However you seem to have a misconception that such change would be neccesary in all cases. The DC itself could run at either 1.8ata or 1.98ata, the rating is clearly noted in "Leistungen Bf 109 K" documents, and the DC was obviously around itself from December 1944.
Until 1.98ata was cleared, DC engines simply run at 1.8ata. This is stated in 6730. To convert to 1.98ata, the DC engine`s boost regulator would be simply adjusted from 1.8ata to 1.98ata. A 5 min job.
If the engine was a DB, then it first had to be converted to DC, which could not be done immidiately at Staffel level. Little problem though, given that the whole engine could be swapped in 15 minutes on the 109 in a complete package, so they probably simply swept the replacement engines as they usually did.
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Wasn't my German translation I was looking at Knegels/your translation.
"as fuel C3 in undreduced quality at disposial is /available"
Unreduced quality does not mean or infer unreduced quantity.
In fact with dwindling front line strengths they still had to keep on cutting fuel supply to non-essential units.
"Fuel quality problems late 44" -
You want a source,OK
"From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944."
Look familiar, it should, it comes right off your own website.
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I don`t think it really worths to set up a hypothesis, that there shortage of C-3 and because of that, 109 units would not receive C-3, when there`s documentation of C-3 shipments to even Italian units. You missed that train.
As for the allaged quality problems of C-3, I`d like to see the documentation for it, since neither 6730, nro the RAW, nor DB 603 talks from November 1944 notes it but quite the contrary.
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Hi Kev,
actually i took the same translation like Kurfürst, for this part of the text! I dont saw him translating it with quantity.
Kurfürst, most people seems to firmly deny the usage of DB605DC´s and ASC´s, cause they say no C3 was available for 109´s.
The 'Reperatur-Anleitung' clearly state that C3 fuel was in same high quality like before available, therefor there was no request to rebuild the 'C' engines to 'B' engines.
Only the already available 'B' engines did need a different setting, due to a reduced B4 quality.
As your quotes show, the uprating to 1.98 and 1.9 ata did need a delayed ignition and somewhere else i did read about different spark plugs! So the downrating would need the same changings, otherwise the engine lose power, as you can see here.
(http://www.raf-roy.com/share/knegel/Screenes/109K-4speed.jpg)
Gundeinstellung 1.98ata is related to the delayed ignition etc.
In this test they only did use 1.8ata, as you can see the planes did perform better with Grundeinstellung 1.8ata.
Acording to my datas the 1.8ata DC and ASC + MW50 had already 2000HP! I dont know any document about the DC or ASC, which state the powerputput of this engines with 1.98ata, neighter i saw 1.98 ata flight results. (actually i neighter saw 1.8ata + MW50 fighttest)
The simple downrating of the ata setting dont made a 'C' engine to a 'B' engine anyway, even with 1.8 ata, the 'C' engine wasnt able to run B4 fuel without probelms!
AGAIN: The "Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion, in 14 March 1945" clearly show that 'C' engines got delivered and that C3 fuel was available in high quality.
With other words, already before 14 March 1945 2000HP 109´s was available!
So the question should be 1.8 or 1.98 ata, rather 'how many 'C' engines got delivered??
Greetings, Knegel
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100m3 of fuel is really a low amount of fuel.
For a guppe of 3 staffel of 12 me109G with a 400 liter and 300 external it less than 4 day of operation.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
I don`t think it really worths to set up a hypothesis, that there shortage of C-3 and because of that, 109 units would not receive C-3, when there`s documentation of C-3 shipments to even Italian units. You missed that train.
As for the allaged quality problems of C-3, I`d like to see the documentation for it, since neither 6730, nro the RAW, nor DB 603 talks from November 1944 notes it but quite the contrary.
Well the C3 quality problems come right of YOUR own website, as part of Olivers research. The same part that lists C3 fuel shortage.
If they had documented C3 fuel quality problems as Oliver states then by brining it up to acceptable levels they are going to lose quantity.
In order to maintain a supply of fuel to frontline units by April 45 the LW had cut supplys to other units to a 1/3 of Jan 45 amounts.
Definately points to a fuel shortage if you ask me.
Didn't miss the ANR fuel status, jsut doesn't pertain to fuel status in Germany.
Good example is the recent fuel shortage here in the U.S. Out of the 5 local gas stations only 1 had premium.
By your hypothesis because that 1 had premium, they all should have it.
Knegel - Before his recent update, his website said 'quantity', now reads 'quality'.
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This is what Butch says, and is taken from Kurfie's own 109K-4 web site article:
"And even after the clearance only few gruppen got it because of shortages due not only to C3 production but also to C3 delivery to the units."
"From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944."
"At least DB documents underlined the need for cleaner fuels than those in use at that time."
The question is, why does he totally ignore Butch's words?
Knegel,
I am not saying the 109 did not use C3 but am questioning the availability of C3 for 109 units that needed it for 1.98 operation since the 190 had the greater need for C3.
No authentic proof has been produced to show that these units did in fact receive enough C3 to conduct operations in force. Penny pocket operations by the few operational a/c??? No authentic proof has been produced that the 4 Gruppen had completely converted to 1.98.
Still waiting for an answer on what jets the Italians operated Kurfie.
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Originally posted by straffo
100m3 of fuel is really a low amount of fuel.
For a guppe of 3 staffel of 12 me109G with a 400 liter and 300 external it less than 4 day of operation.
...that`s just storage on a given they. If you look at the graph, you`ll see that amount went up and down, indicating consumption and re-supply.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Well the C3 quality problems come right of YOUR own website, as part of Olivers research. The same part that lists C3 fuel shortage.
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That`s an undocumented opinion appearantly, so I treat it as such.
If they had documented C3 fuel quality problems as Oliver states then by brining it up to acceptable levels they are going to lose quantity.
[/B]
You are speaking about quality problems for which there`s no evidence, and then came up with more nonsense.
Didn't miss the ANR fuel status, jsut doesn't pertain to fuel status in Germany.
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How come, the ANR received all it`s fuel supply from Germany, as was pointed out dozens of times already. How come German fuel supply is not representative of German fuel supply...? Desperate, aren`t you?
Knegel - Before his recent update, his website said 'quantity', now reads 'quality'.
Which is simple an outright lie, trying to back up your previous lie about my translation.
Fairly simple to check, my first post with the translation was
09-12-2005 01:49 PM, where I wrote "C-3 fuel is available for use in unreduced quality". It hadn`t been edited since.
Kev 367 wrote on 09-17-2005 12:12 AM that : "This is a totaly different meaning to "unrestricted quantity available" as Kurfurst has translated it.
But as seen, there had been no changes to either to the website - that wasn`t changed ever since it came out - or the post, Kev is just a pathological liar for all to see.
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Actaully - Only a desperate man resorts to personal insults once he realises his personal pet fantasy has been shot down in flames - AGAIN.
Rather than back it up with clear evidence.
BTW - Your ANA 'report' shows then recieving J2 fuel, WHY?
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Well you need to make a change, as at one point in your article you have III./JG27 only having G-10s and further down you have the same unit having K-4s and some Gs.
So which a/c?
Yes Kev he has NEVER answered why the Italians received J2.
He has also not produced the graph he mentions to Straffo.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
...that`s just storage on a given they. If you look at the graph, you`ll see that amount went up and down, indicating consumption and re-supply.
oops ... my bad I thought it was the delivery for the whole period , sorry.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
This is what Butch says, and is taken from Kurfie's own 109K-4 web site article:
"And even after the clearance only few gruppen got it because of shortages due not only to C3 production but also to C3 delivery to the units."
"From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944."
"At least DB documents underlined the need for cleaner fuels than those in use at that time."
The question is, why does he totally ignore Butch's words?
Knegel,
I am not saying the 109 did not use C3 but am questioning the availability of C3 for 109 units that needed it for 1.98 operation since the 190 had the greater need for C3.
No authentic proof has been produced to show that these units did in fact receive enough C3 to conduct operations in force. Penny pocket operations by the few operational a/c??? No authentic proof has been produced that the 4 Gruppen had completely converted to 1.98.
Still waiting for an answer on what jets the Italians operated Kurfie.
Hi,
the 'Reparatur-Anleitung' clearly state that C3 was available in high quality and that 'C' engines got delivered!!
The 'C' engines did need C3 fuel, without they wasnt usable, if the 1.98 ata was cleared, i dont see a reason why they shouldnt use it, if not, who care, 2000HP would have been enough anyway.
Actually i think for now many people 1. didnt agree that 2000HP 109´s got used and 2. many still mix up the 1.8 ata poweroutput with the 1.98 ata poweroutput!!
605DC 1.8ata + MW50 = 2000HP
605DC 1.98ata + MW50 = ?????
605DB 1.8ata + B4 + MW50 = 1850HP
605DB 1.8ata + C3 = 1850HP
605DB 1.8ata + C3 + MW50 = 1850HP
605DB 1.98 + C3 + MW50 = 2000HP??? ( i dont saw any related testsdatas).
So my question again: How many 'C' engines saw service??
They had 2000HP with 1.8ata + MW50, if 1.98ata got used isnt relevant here.
And other questions:
1. Iis there a hint that they did try to use the 605DB with 1.98ata + C3 + MW50, and what should have been the poweroutput?
2. What should have been the power of a 605DC + 1.98ata + MW50??
Greetings, Knegel
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Hi Knegel - High quality C3 which means they fixed their late 1944 fuel quality problems, does not mean high availabilty.
Quality - How good something is
Quantity - How much of something there is
Everything points to they had fixed their fuel quality problems, but its was scarce.
Scarce to the point they were cutting down fuel to non-critical units throughtout 1945.
In fact by Apr/May 45 the quantity of fuel available to non-critical (ie training, transport, production, delivery etc) units was only 1/3 of the Jan levels.
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Knegel,
"In the JaPo book on the Bf109K (p.81), Janda and Poruba mention the differences between the DB605DB and DC as being dependent not on fuel compatibility, but on maximum boost pressure. The maximum manifold pressure figures quoted are as follows:
- DB605DB: 1.80 ata at 2,800 r.p.m., giving 1,850 h.p. (no performance difference noted between B4 and C3 fuel usage)
- DB605DC: (with MW50) 1.98 ata at 2,800 r.p.m., giving 2,000 h.p
(without MW50) 1.80 ata at 2,800 r.p.m., giving 1,850 h.p
However, J.C. Mermet (p. 14, 15) quotes an official Daimler-Benz factory manual dated 5 December 1944 concerning the different designations. The B designation indicated the engine was capable of using 87 octane B4 fuel WITH MW50, or 96 octane C3 fuel WITHOUT MW50 whereas the C designation indicated the use of 96 octane C3 fuel WITH MW50.
Interestingly, the engine could be converted from a B to a C model and back again by the simple expedient of adjusting a screw valve which regulated the flow of MW50 to the engine. This would seem to be the more proper explanation, especially given the chaotic fuel situation in the Reich from 1944 onwards. It can also be seen how the different fuel configurations would account for the maximum permissible boost ratings as noted by Janda and Poruba. There is still discussion on this point, however, and further documentation may yet refine this point.
The maximum power figures between the two sources do agree, although Mermet points out that the 1.98 ata figure of the C motor was attainable only with MW50 at 110% emergency power, and operation of the B motor without MW50 would be limited to a maximum manifold pressure of 1.45 ata, and 100% power was not available anywhere within the flight regime (Note: these restrictions did not apply if MW50 was used with the B motor)"
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/systems/engine/as_vs_d/as_vs_d.htm
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm
I don't see this combination mentioned > '605DB 1.98 + C3 + MW50 = 2000HP'
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Hi,
AHA, now i got it, 605DC 1,98ata + MW50 = 2000HP.
compare this both tests:
(http://www.raf-roy.com/share/knegel/Screenes/109K-4speed.jpg)
(http://www.raf-roy.com/share/knegel/Screenes/109K-4speed01.jpg)
You will see that both planes have identical performence, but one use the DB605DB 1.8ata + B4 + MW50, while the other use the DB605DC 1.8ata + C3 without MW50!!
Imho this show that both engines have very similar power and that is around 1850HP! So far so good.
As you say, the 'C' engine engine was made to use C3 + MW50 and this gave 2000HP. If the usage of this powersetting wasnt allowed, it wouldnt make sence to deliver 'C' engines at all, cause the engine already brought 1850HP with 1.8ata without MW50, but as we know they did deliver 'C' engines before 14 March 1945.
And again, the 'Reparatur-Anleitung' clearly state that they had enough (quantity) C3 fule in high quality, so a rebuilding of the 'C' engines wasnt needed!
Regarding the converting from 'B' to 'C' engine, we can read that at least the ignition needed to get changed and a different sparkplug was needed! The hint in the Reparatur-Anleitung' that engines which got produced as 'C' engines dont need to get changed, make me believe that that converting wasnt as easy as many may think. The different poweroutput, while using 1.8ata, but one time 1.98 ata basic setting(Grundeinstellung) and the other time 1.8ata basic setting, clearly show that there was other differents than to adjust the ata setting!
Greetings, Knegel
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The february T-Amt documents precise that DB605DC are to be delivered to units set at 1.8ata for the moment. Note as well that DB605DC were not fitted into production a/c until mid January 1945 as per DB documents.
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Hi Butch,
what sence a DC engine make if only 1.8ata was allowed ??
They must have been crazy to deliver DC engines instead of DB engines then! Same power but the need of C3 fuel dont seems to make sence to me, thats a big step backward, specialy with possible fuel supply problems.
On the other hand, we know they was crazy. :D
Greetings, Knegel
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OTOH, Knegel, the 1.98ata testing for the DC was well underway in January when they started putting the DC into engines, and was likely to be finished soon and successfully - as in fact it did a month later in Feb. Until then they could run at 1.8ata for 1800-1850(?) PS, and asa 1.98ata was cleared, a mechanic approached to plane, made sure BERU spark plugs were fitted, adjusted the boost regulator to 1.98 - and voila, a 2000 PS engine comin` right up! ;) Unless I missed something.
Apart from making changeover very quick by thinking ahead, I guess DC/1.8ata/c3 would be less risky than the DB/1.8ata/b4. The latter was really stretching the boundaries, considering it`s only 87 octane fuel in a 1.8ata and as high as 8.5:1 CR engine...
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Some evolution of the boost:
1.3 1,42 then on to 1,8 and 1,98?
Something missing and what and when?
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Well....
(note dates are when it was in action for sure, the engine itself may have, and in most cases did exist before that)
1939
DB 601A-1 : 1.30 (1.40)
DB 601Aa : 1.35 (1.45)
1940
DB 601N : 1.35ata
1941
DB 601E 1.3, then in `42 1.42ata
1942
DB 605A : 1.3ata, then in `43 sept 1.42ata
1944 :
605AM and ASM : 1.7ata
605DM : 1.75ata
44/45 :
605DB/ASB : 1.8ata
605DC/ASC : 1.8, then 1.98ata (perhaps there was 1.9ata interim)
Planned for DC : up to 2.3ata known
IMHO it`s only half a story, since CR also increased a lot, about by 1/3!
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Jolly nice.
I may have some input later, - will keep you posted.