Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Furball on September 12, 2005, 02:26:25 PM
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It appears the name has been tarnished, it is a shame as the real Werner Voss was a great man.
(http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraft/Fokker-DrI/voss/voss_tri.jpg)
James McCudden (highest decorated RAF pilot in WWI) wrote after he had seen the pilot of a green Fokker triplane put up the most courageous fight against his formation of SE5s
'I shall never forget my admiration for that German pilot, who single handed fought seven of us for ten minutes and also put some bullets through all our machines. His flying was wonderful, his courage magnificent, and in my opinion he is the bravest German airman whom it has been my privilege to see fight.'
Werner Voss was at one point von Richthofen's closest rival but he came from a completely different background to the Prussian baron. Like Albert Ball, he grew up against a background of industry, and again like Ball his first love was machines and he was never happier than when tinkering with his motorcycle or an aero-engine. He was born in Krefeld, the son of a dye factory owner, on 13 April 1897. On the outbreak of war he was in a cavalry regiment, the 2nd Westphalian Hussars, enlisting while he was still under age. In August 1915 he transferred to the air service, then seen very much as an extension of the cavalry's military function. During the first weeks of the Battle of the Somme he flew as an observer where the highly dangerous routine of artillery observation brought him both a strong identification and sympathy for two-seater crews (he wrote later that of his original reconnaissance unit not one was still alive) and a desire to get behind the controls of an aircraft himself. He got his flight training in the late summer of 1916 and on 2 zNovember he was transferred to Jasta 2, Oswald Boclcke's old command. Six days later he got his first victory when he forced down a BE2c. From then Voss's skill as a single-seater pilot cut a swathe through the Royal Flying Corps. In January and February 1917 Voss raised his score to twenty-two, trailing the Rittmeister himself by only five. During April 1917 he fought on the French Front during the disastrous Nivelle offensive on the Chemin des Dames which brought the French army close to cracking. Up to 31 July 1917 when Voss was posted back to the British sector to command Jasta 10, he shot down a total of thirty-four aircraft. Remembering his days on the Somme as an observer he wrote after shooting down a BE2, "Poor devils". I know how they felt. I have flown in such a type-they must be destroyed because they spy out our secrets but I would prefer to shoot down fighters.'
While flying an Albatros DV against the new British types that were arriving to avenge the disaster of April, Voss was called to Schwerin to test the latest product from the Fokker stable, the Fokker Dr I, which it was hoped would maintain the German technical ascendancy. The qualities of the extraordinary new aircraft delighted the natural pilot in Voss. His triplane became an obsession and he would later endlessly tinker with his machine while wearing an old grey jacket.
On 28 August at last the new operational triplanes arrived at Heule and Voss's Jasta used these superb offensive machines to their best ability, the RFC at first being taken completely off guard when the hitherto friendly shape of a Sopwith Triplane began to spit bullets at them. Voss's machine with its cowling marked with a face both ferocious and comic was the third machine from the factory, Fokker Fl 103/17, the second Fok 102/ I 7 going to Richthofen himself. In the first ten days of August Voss shot down five aircraft from the cockpit of his Dr I and four more before the end of the month. On 5 September he shot down a Sopwith Pup and a Caudron on the same day. On the 9th he attacked a formation of three Sopwith Camels, shot two down and drove away the third bringing down an FE2d on the same patrol.
By 23 September 1917' Voss's score stood at forty-seven. On his first patrol that day he shot down a DH4 to bring his score to just two short of the magic fifty. That afternoon his two brothers Lt Otto and Uffz Max Voss arrived at the airfield at Heule to accompany Werner on leave back home to Krefeld. What a present to bring home! For the twenty year old to have despatched fifty enemies of the Fatherland! At 6.05 therefore Werner Voss took off again in spite of failing light in his triplane Fok Fl 103/17 looking for the enemy.
It was the day of the autumn equinox. That September evening a massive cloud formation at I0,000 feet effectively marked the operational ceiling. Patches of thin cloud at 1000 feet spotted the tortured and already darkening Flanders landscape below as Voss scanned the western horizon above the British lines looking for any stragglers from the afternoon's air battles running for home, silhouetted against the dying rays of the sun.
Then Voss saw a single SE5a scudding home and the Triplane fell in pursuit. Unseen to Voss, above and to the east was a patrol of perhaps the best fighter pilots in the Royal Flying Corps. No 56 Squadron RFC with six of its most experienced pilots-A P F Rhys-Davids, R A Mayberry, V P Cronyn, R T C Hoidge and K K Muspratt led by James McCudden VC-were about to hunt the hunter. R Stuart-Wortley saw it from 1000 feet higher up. 'A red flare flickered from the leader of the SE5s. There was an enemy in sight , but search as I might I could see nothing. Then, of a sudden I espied the Hun... a solitary, lonely Hun in a Fokker triplane.'
Already the flight leader McCudden was building up a tactical trap to snare the triplane pilot with Rhys-Davids and McCudden at either side and Muspratt and Hoidge at top and bottom of an open mouthed box with the other two SE5s guarding any possible escape from the trawl. The leading SE5 pilots pressed their triggers together but at the first rattle of .303 gunfire Voss did the incredible. As Cronyn wrote 'he whipped round in an extraordinary way, using no bank at all but just throwing his tail behind him.' Pitching the acrobatic qualities' of the rotary-engined triplane against the faster but heavier and slower-turning SE5s. Voss flew straight back towards his ambushers firing as he came. Another flick turn and the triplane was behind Hoidge and bullets tore into his aircraft. McCudden had taken the first burst of Voss's fire through his wings and had broken away sharply but now recovered. He wrote 'the pilot seemed to be firing at all of us simultaneously and although I got behind him a second time I could hardly stay there for a second. His movements were so quick and uncertain that none of us could hold him in sight at all for any decisive time.' Three times the SE5 pilots tried to use their advantage of speed and numbers to build a net to snare the snarling twisting triplane, and three times the Fokker escaped.
A formation of Albatros DVs flew above the fight but were held back by a cordon of Spads. One red-nosed DV got through and for a few desperate minutes the Albatros guarded Voss's tail until it was driven down. 'This left Voss alone in the middle of us', Capt G H Bowman recalled, 'which did not appear to deter him in the slightest.' Instead of breaking out and flying east into the safety of the gathering gloom Voss turned again and again into the attack. At last Rhys-Davids got on his tail in SE5a B585 with his propeller boss almost glued to the triplane's rudder and for a few seconds the Fokker filled his ring-sights. Rhys-Davids fired a long burst from both Lewis and Vickers raking the triplane from end to end.
After that Voss made no further attempt to turn. He was already dying in the cockpit of the triplane now slowing up and flying level. Then slowly down it went, gently gliding westwards. Rhys-Davids dived again, put a Vickers shot into Voss, reloaded and put another Lewis drum into the seemingly indestructible triplane. The Fokker turned right and its glide steepened and Rhys-Davids' diving SE overshot. McCudden however saw Voss's end. 'I noticed that the triplane's movements were very erratic, and then I saw him go into a fairly steep dive and so I continued to watch, and then saw the triplane hit the ground and disappear into a thousand fragments, for it seemed to me that it literally went to powder.'
British soldiers found the remains of the triplane and the body of the pilot and salvaged what they could. Voss had come down just north of St Juliari some half mile behind the front line. The pilot's body was buried in a mass grave. Next morning No 56 squadron got a telegram from the RFC headquarters. The dead pilot had been found wearing the Boclcke collar and at his neck he wore the Pour te Merite. His name was Werner Voss. As they counted the bullet holes in their own machines the pilots of No 56 Squadron knew they had faced one of the greatest air fighters of the war indeed many German and RFC pilots considered him a greater fighter pilot than von Richthofen. Rhys-Davids later said to McCudden 'If I could only have brought him down alive', a wish shared by McCudden.
So next time you look at the name Voss with hate, think again about the callsign someone decided to use.
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MegaVoss is a much better man. He and his pet scorpion singlehandedly defeated the Iraqi air force with the use of his CIA F-16 and model airplane P-51. I don't think Werner Voss ever had a scorpion friend OR a model P-51.
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LOL Voss is a mega tard, even Straiga (the queen of lies) does not even compare!
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Good Read Furby :aok
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Originally posted by Furball
Instead of breaking out and flying east into the safety of the gathering gloom Voss turned again and again into the attack.
that was his fault, c'mon how can you survive alone against 5 ? lol
talk about suicide. But yes looks like he was a very good Pilot
regardless of the 5 vs.1
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SE5a was about the fastest thing in the sky during WWI, i don't think he would have gotten far.
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See, Jackal?
Look what you did...
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It would take a lot more than some bbs dweeb to tarnish the name of such a courageous pilot.
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Originally posted by DJ111
See, Jackal?
Look what you did...
Me and Boosh are both teh evil. :)
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Teh!?
Get to L.A. and fix teh lights!
EVUL!
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I can`t. I`m busy inventing the hurricane.
Oooops teh Boosh done that allready.
Yes "teh' as in Boosh is teh evil. :)
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No excuses!
(http://xtremesystems.org/forums/images/smilies/banana_love.gif)
IN
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He was probably Germanys best pilot in WW1, many say he was.
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I saw this for sale at Boeing Field yesterday, it is a fairly new book...
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1904010474.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
...by win/loss record Udet was the best
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Originally posted by Furball
SE5a was about the fastest thing in the sky during WWI, i don't think he would have gotten far.
Yeah, but at low to medium altitude, that Dr1(F1) would stay comfortably above the SE5a's. It climbed like a bat out of hell.
Manfred von Richtofen was quoted as saying "It maneuvered like the devil and climbed like a monkey."
Although Voss was surprised, he actually took control of the situation as he could have broken off several times that fight.
His overconfidence in his skills and the ability of his plane AND his underestimating his enemy spelled his doom.
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Voss as he is going down;
"LOL! It only took FIVE of you, stupid gangbangers... if it wasn't for the stupid horde you wouldn't survive a fight for two minutes... that's right tard.. stay with the horde.. but one of those days you'll be alone.. such frickin' skill-less tards should learn some BFM and ACM.. and maybe them tards could actually prove to be an interesting fight.. blahblahblahblahblahblahblahb lahblahblahblahblahblahblahbl ahblahblahblahblahblahblahbla hblahblahblahblah..."[/size]
...
or was that RManiac?
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That was good Kweassa
I about spit my coffee out my nose when I got to the Name!!
LOL
Vati66
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Voss is the greatest troll this comminity has ever known. People are still scampering around in the impact craters of his trolls. Elfenwolf can't hold a candle to him. Did airhead's trolls even earn him any money?
Props to Voss.
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my goodness
what has "virtual" V0SS done to this community? Whatt is he accused ofg?
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Originally posted by Suave
Did airhead's trolls even earn him any money?
No, but he's earned plenty of walks on the beach, hand in hand, with many FDB. :)
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Originally posted by 1K3
my goodness
what has "virtual" V0SS done to this community? Whatt is he accused ofg?
What rock have you been under Ike?
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Voss ? dindt he also ride naked on a nuckear missil and avoided ww3 under his CIA period ( just like that )?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Yeah, but at low to medium altitude, that Dr1(F1) would stay comfortably above the SE5a's. It climbed like a bat out of hell.
Manfred von Richtofen was quoted as saying "It maneuvered like the devil and climbed like a monkey."
The Dr.1, the German version of the Sopwith Triplane.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
The Dr.1, the German version of the Sopwith Triplane.
Yeah, but the Dr.1 was better. The first Dr.1's were designated F, not Dr.
When Richtofen flew his Albatross against the Sopwith Tripe, he saw just how superior the maneuverability and most particularly the climb advantage it had. That started the seed of the Fokker Triplane idea.
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I have read that despite its fame (Von Richtofen, and Werner Voss both fought and died in them), and success in the hands of a few aces the Fokker Dr1 was not a popular fighter with many in the German Air Service. They complained of its comparative slow speed (@110mph) and poor diving abilities. It was a very manueverable fighter though, no question of that. It was largely phased out of service by the summer of 1918.
It remains as one of the primary symbols of WW1 aviation of course because of "The Red Baron".
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Well although the design was sound for its intended purposes, great maneuverability and climb, the time of the "lone wolf" type of plane for one on one dogfights had passed. Most kills were to be had by advantage and surprise.
Some of the early Dr.1's had a bad habit of shedding its upper fabric, causing cautistophic failure. Seems the aileron was coming unhinged because of the moisture buildup inside the wing. That led to the unfortunate chain of events of the aileron coming off, taking the upper wing fabric with it, causing a failure to actually stay airborne. A couple of pilots (Gonterman and Pastor) suffered that failure and ended up dying.
Fokker's triplanes were grounded.
Subsequent planes had a beefed up aileron hinge assembly and water proof glue. Most pilots were wary of flying it.
One pilot who seemed to enjoy fighting his triplane was Jacobs. He modified his by puting a more powerful engine/prop assembly from a captured/shot down Sopwith Camel.
Once the D.VII became readily available, the triplane fleet was regulated to back up duty as it was removed from the front lines.
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Natural evolution I guess. Triplanes were thought to be king, then faster biplanes, then faster monoplanes...
Speed and climb won over manueverbility.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Yeah, but the Dr.1 was better. The first Dr.1's were designated F, not Dr.
When Richtofen flew his Albatross against the Sopwith Tripe, he saw just how superior the maneuverability and most particularly the climb advantage it had. That started the seed of the Fokker Triplane idea.
The 1st Fokker triplane was serialed Dr.1 100/17. The next 3 were serialed F.1 101/17, F.1 102/17 and F.1 103/17. The 4th triplane was serialed Dr.1 104/17.
Yes the Sopwith was slow but that much slower than the Dr.1, that is why the British were phasing them out as the Dr.1 was making its appearance.
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I thought the very first was designated with V. Didn't have the vertical wing brace.
The British realized the need for a second gun and high speed (not nec climb) were essential for the next generation. The Germans caught on too late. The SE5a was not know for climb. In a real world dogfight (TnB) situation it was a dog.
The first Dr.1's were designated F, not Dr.
I should have made clear "operational" in my statement.
Voss and his F.103/17 tangled, and lost against the SE5a's of 56th Squadron.
Had this been the "avg" squad of pilots, Voss might very well have won the fight. It was his misfortune he went against a better than avg skilled group.
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Originally posted by Squire
Natural evolution I guess. Triplanes were thought to be king, then faster biplanes, then faster monoplanes...
Speed and climb won over manueverbility.
It was speed and higher altitude performance. The ability to "BnZ" by surprise was the better way to fight.
Not many planes could stay with the triplanes in a climbing fight.
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The tripehound would have been far more famous and successful had it not been for navy/RFC BS (Only around 150 sopwith triplanes were build because of this..) The RFC were stuck with sub standard equipment while the Germans actually avoided fighting the RNAS Tripehounds up in the north.
The Sopwith entered service in June 1916, with the DRI entering service over a year later in August 1917, so it is quite unfair comparing them.
(http://furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/userfiles/Furball/tripehound.jpg)
Also, comparing the DRI vs the SE5A is like comparing an A6M to a 190. The SE5A was by far the better combat aircraft.
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Originally posted by Furball
The tripehound would have been far more famous and successful had it not been for navy/RFC BS (Only around 150 sopwith triplanes were build because of this..) The RFC were stuck with sub standard equipment while the Germans actually avoided fighting the RNAS Tripehounds up in the north.
The Sopwith entered service in June 1916, with the DRI entering service over a year later in August 1917, so it is quite unfair comparing them.
Agreed. The Sopwith Tripe was so superior to the then German planes, the German's did the right thing, avoid combat against them. Richtofen's report was a shocker to the German High Command.
Originally posted by Furball Also, comparing the DRI vs the SE5A is like comparing an A6M to a 190. The SE5A was by far the better combat aircraft.
Agreed. The Germans realized that also. Hence the D.VII.
Same reason the Camel was phased out. Hence the Snipe.
BnZ all the way! :D
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You know what this is? (without looking at image link you cheater!) :D
(http://furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/userfiles/Furball/bristol.jpg)
This could have been the real star had the British air ministry not been so short sighted and biased against monoplanes.
130mph... in 1916.
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Furball, what museum or collection is that? I must go there. :)
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its the Royal Air Force Museum, in the Grahame White Factory exhibition...
http://www.rafmuseum.com/london
although the Shuttleworth Collection would be up your street if you like WWI stuff, most of theirs are airworthy.
http://www.shuttleworth.org/shuttleworth/index.htm
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Sweet. Thanks. :-)
every few years I make the 4-hour drive to this place...
http://www.oldrhinebeck.org/ (http://www.oldrhinebeck.org/)
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wow, great collection they have :)
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Furball, it is a Bristol but would have to look up the model. ;)
The French also had a monoplane fighter. Name is ???
Links to WW1 a/c,
http://mars.ark.com/~mdf/nieuport.html
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aircraft/
http://www.earlyaviator.com/archive1.htm
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Are you thinking of the Deperdussin monocoque ?
It's a pre WWI design
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Originally posted by SaburoS
...Some of the early Dr.1's had a bad habit of shedding its upper fabric, causing cautistophic failure. Seems the aileron was coming unhinged because of the moisture buildup inside the wing...
I knew they were ahead of the curve on thick wing, but not wet wing...I went to the muesem at Boeing Field recently and was surprised to see they have an actual WW1 aircraft there, not a replica. First time i've ever seen that. Unrestored too & looks quite nice for 90years SMOH. I know an 'airworthy' C-150 that looks about the same
http://www.museumofflight.org/Collection/Aircraft.asp?RecordKey=7A5379CF-8257-4B13-AAFE-355856B8DB6C
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Originally posted by straffo
Are you thinking of the Deperdussin monocoque ?
It's a pre WWI design
Nope.;) They were still around building a/c for France in the late '30s. Some of these even got some German kills.
Debonair, let me answer for Saburo. He did not mean 'wet wing' as in a wing that carried fuel. Think of rot.
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That was a poorly executed attempt at humor on my part
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The most famous of the Sopwith Tripe pilots was Raymond Collishaw RNAS (and ironically, as a triplane advocate, one of Canadas greatest WW1 pilots, if not the greatest), and the pilots of "Naval Ten" also known as the "Black Flight".
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircra...fo/trp_info.htm
The RNAS was stationed north as it was their assigned area, nearest the sea. As for being "avoided" I have never read that. The RNAS carried out its ops as assigned, over its section of the front.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Nope.;) They were still around building a/c for France in the late '30s. Some of these even got some German kills.
Debonair, let me answer for Saburo. He did not mean 'wet wing' as in a wing that carried fuel. Think of rot.
I think I remember , Roland Garros plane ?
it was a Morane saulnier I think
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
The French also had a monoplane fighter. Name is ???
well.. the most famous of the french monoplanes has to be the Bleriot, but i doubt anyone was stupid enough to use that as a fighter :D
i know i have read about it, not sure where, but i will try and dig it up!
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Originally posted by straffo
I think I remember , Roland Garros plane ?
it was a Morane saulnier I think
Yes i think you are right, they used an armoured propellor to deflect bullets on it. It landed over the german lines and Anthony Fokker used it as inspiration for the interruptor gear?
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You got it Straffo. :aok Thinking the Type N specifacally.
A link to M-S a/c, http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/morane-saulnier.html