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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FiLtH on September 12, 2005, 11:47:52 PM

Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: FiLtH on September 12, 2005, 11:47:52 PM
The head ons in here seems like its so much easier for people to get kills than it was back in AW. Back then you actually had to get on a guys 6 or a decent deflection to score hits. The headon was virtually non-existant.  Must be alot of people out there that use the HO as their primary weapon.

You guys with super computers...is it easier to see planes turn back on you, rather than seeing them going one direction, and then seem to turn inside themselves and are coming straight toward you?
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Bodhi on September 12, 2005, 11:50:55 PM
The reason that HO's in here are more lethal are that AH2 does nothing to reduce their lethality.  In AW, they reduced them by a massive percent to make them worthless.

Quit whining and learn how to avoid.  Maybe it would make you happy if they brought back dive flaps on the Hellcat too....

Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: FiLtH on September 13, 2005, 12:08:40 AM
You must be one of "them" type.

   
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Rino on September 13, 2005, 12:10:15 AM
I thought you were a buff guy?
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: FiLtH on September 13, 2005, 12:16:07 AM
Im both.  I fly buffs for big missions and formation stuff...and basically add my 2 cents in defense of guys who only buff, when the world comes down on them.  You dont remember me flying fighters back in AW?
Title: Re: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Pooh21 on September 13, 2005, 12:28:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by FiLtH

rather than seeing them going one direction, and then seem to turn inside themselves and are coming straight toward you?

Hos will always happen in AH, and there are always ways to avoid them.

I have only seen what you describe happen once. I was in a 262 going in on a fleeing p38 to kill him or get him to turn so my Knightland peasantry could kill him in their spitniks. I went in he stayed level in my gunsight until d1.5 then he came right at me, exactly if his nose switched instantly with his tail. I avoided most of his 50spray. When he died in a hail of peasantry sprayguns. His name popped up on the buffer, It was a certain p38 driver known for his extremely lucky connection.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Kweassa on September 13, 2005, 12:31:58 AM
A thing which I've realized recently, is that since the "xxx collided into you" message was introduced, it appears that a lot of the HO deaths are actually collision deaths.

 This one time, I've had a P-38 HO my Bf109G-10. I took the challenge, and landed the 30mm on his cockpit and moved out of the way in the nick of time... when suddenly, boom! I'm back in the tower... and the message, "xxx has collided with you"..

 Normally, if this happened before, I'd probably be assuming that I lost the HO and maybe my pilot got shot before I've completely moved away... when actually, it was the enemy plane colliding into me which killed me.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: save on September 13, 2005, 02:26:43 AM
Reduce the range info to 500 yards and you see less HO working and lots of more fun combat with realistic gunnery
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Wolfala on September 13, 2005, 02:40:02 AM
I had an interesting experience. I was in an A20 intercepting a pair of B26's. Now...apparently the 26s were manned. So I fired at a front qtr - he had the man'd guns up, and aimed all 3 of his bomber's FF guns. Well...suffice to say, I got the lead bomber, but damn if all those guns from everything else found my ass. It hurt.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: BigR on September 13, 2005, 03:31:20 AM
Actually AW had a randomizer on HOs. Not every hit counted. Hits would randomly count. That’s why you would always hear guys say "Damn randomizer!" I personally loved the randomizer because it really made for some awesome fights. Think about it...you could merge head to head without worrying about dying (most of the time). I think this actually encouraged a lot more head to head stall fights. I sure saw a lot more in AW than I have seen here. It could have just been the mentality back then in that game.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: SkyWolf on September 13, 2005, 07:04:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
A thing which I've realized recently, is that since the "xxx collided into you" message was introduced, it appears that a lot of the HO deaths are actually collision deaths.



I got one of those "xxx collided with you" messages when I got hacked off and HO'd a Yak and I didn't go down. He went down, but I'm assuming it was my girlie man HO as he flew on for quite awhile before he went down.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Westy on September 13, 2005, 07:25:24 AM
yEah HiTEch nedds to remove the headon shotz and while he'se at it he should dizable being shot from behind cauze I die to  people snekaing up on my sixx to much two!!
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: FiLtH on September 13, 2005, 07:27:35 AM
Its not a HO later in the fight, that happens that bothers me. Its when you close on a guy and hes about 1.5 going away from you, and all of a sudden you go to fire and hes firing at you.

  As far as the rams...when I see the message "XXX collided with you"...what does that mean. Does it mean he saw a collision and should take the damage? Because if thats the case its backwards for me. I get the message they collided but I take damage and they fly away.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Clifra Jones on September 13, 2005, 10:34:48 AM
The only thing that really bothers me regarding HOs is when I try to avoid the HO and the HOer flies past me and his "TIME DELAYED" rounds slam into me as he's 50 yards behind me.:mad:
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: nirvana on September 13, 2005, 11:06:03 PM
I "HO'ed" someone tonight.  Actually hey went off to my side so I kicked full right rudder and ripped off his tail like a little shrimp.  I promptly landed that kill and 2 others.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Murdr on September 14, 2005, 12:08:02 AM
IIRC from my CM days, normal arena settings for AW were that 90% of HO hits were disallowed against fighters, and 75% aginst bombers.  There was also a parameter to define what angle range constituted a HO.  P38s were notorious for sucessful HO's because the nose mounted guns put out a stream of bullets, giving it a much better chance to beat the odds than converging wing gun a/c.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: SKurj on September 14, 2005, 11:38:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by FiLtH
Its not a HO later in the fight, that happens that bothers me. Its when you close on a guy and hes about 1.5 going away from you, and all of a sudden you go to fire and hes firing at you.  


Only time I have ever seen this happen was due to a gap in my SA...  Granted its not a good idea to focus on the range info, but it helps in cases like this...

I'd say 9 out of 10 1 v any's I engage in, involves an initial HO pass with enemy firing on me (I don't bother on initial merge).  My guess...   of those 9, mebbe 3 will actually get hits.  I take damage on HO passes... mebbe 1 in 20.

Only time I always fire HO.. is when I am coming down from a rope and the badguy is still pointing up...  

:furious
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: tactic on September 14, 2005, 02:02:36 PM
Filth I hear you about the "turn around" .   It does happen to me also.  In can be on someones six,  I can be 2k out +-, next thing i know is there comming at me Head on,  I seem to not be able to tell they just did  a loop or what ever move it is that makes it impossible  to tell they have turned and are now headed toward me.  What the hell is that? <--  I say to myself

The times i dont fire in a ho situation, i find myself spinning to the ground full of holes, when I do fire back, I still find myself in the same situation...  oh well.   Win some ,lose some more.    planes are free, kinda..........
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Rino on September 14, 2005, 02:21:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by FiLtH
Im both.  I fly buffs for big missions and formation stuff...and basically add my 2 cents in defense of guys who only buff, when the world comes down on them.  You dont remember me flying fighters back in AW?


     Man Filth, I can't remember what *I* flew in AW :D
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Balsy on September 14, 2005, 02:56:50 PM
If you Rino+ I think it was the 38.


Balsy
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Karnak on September 14, 2005, 03:05:36 PM
Well, my vote goes a very strong "NO" to the idea of adding Air Warrior Star Trek deflector shields to AH because some people can't figure out how to avoid HOs.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Tilt on September 14, 2005, 03:24:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Murdr
IIRC from my CM days, normal arena settings for AW were that 90% of HO hits were disallowed against fighters, and 75% aginst bombers.  There was also a parameter to define what angle range constituted a HO.  


You could set the "cones" and their effectiveness in the arena scripts............

You could differentiate between bombers and fighters two ways................ both in respect of generic hardness and the ordinance lethality was also spearately adjustable for when it was used agin bombers and/or fighters.

To Filths point  I too am often confused when initially saddling  a bogie after an out of plain manouver............. for a split second I am not sure if he coming toward me or going away......... am I gaining on him or is he coming to me? ( its the 1.5K > 1k gap) you know something is not right but is is speed or direction?


and FiLtH was an A8 dweeb in AW..............
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: eilif on September 14, 2005, 03:49:23 PM
It seems i see more complaints in aces high about HO's than any other sim out there, i think it has alot to due with the gunnery model, its noticably easier to hit things in aces high than most sims i fly, and those hits generaly do more damage because of the simplified damage model, no gradual degridation of performance from damage ectra, and rather predictable damage, you almost always get your oil popped or explode from head ons.

before we go putting air warrior coding in i think we should deal with some basic realism stuff.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: RTSigma on September 14, 2005, 06:06:05 PM
If you're getting HO'ed, try not heading directly at the plane head-on. Dive, climb, or roll, or whatever.


I'd HO if it means shooting down the opposing player out of the sky. In whatever way I can score hits on a plane, if I can, I will.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Don on September 14, 2005, 08:00:01 PM
sigh...some of dese dwiplets just can't hear you Filth.
I can but, I also realize nothing will happen to change it either. However, yer complaint is duly noted
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Rino on September 14, 2005, 08:04:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Balsy
If you Rino+ I think it was the 38.


Balsy


     Thanks Balsy, that's the one with the spare engine, right?:p
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Swager on September 14, 2005, 08:56:46 PM
The problem here is, there's never a dead horse around when you need one!!  :rofl
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: rv6 on September 15, 2005, 06:50:15 AM
Here's a classic for all..  (no names mentioned to protect the ignorant)

I'm flying a 109G10 (w/ 30mm pods) and spot a Spit-9 coming in at co-alt, 12k,,  He's flying slightly to the left of approach path, and we do a cold merge wing-to-wing flyby, before engaging! (1 in a million!)

We went up n' down n' round n' round in one of the greatest dogfights I've ever been in.  This pilot was excellant (much better than me, but I was lucky, ha).

Finally we both end up in a co-nose-up dead stall.. canopy to canopy, so I could look up straight into his plane and nearly see his dials!  No collision (a miracle).

My 109 fell off on a wing about 1/2 second before his Spit did (both out of E).  It fell in front of his nose for an instant, and BRRAP!  he sawed my tail-section clean off!  Big to him..

I'm riding the 109 down, in an earth-bound "tail-slide" (nose pointing straight up) for ha-ha's..  and I see tracers zinging by the canopy??  WTF?

I see a P38, weaving back n' forthe, trying to blast my dead 109 carcass..  What a kill stealing shwienhunt! says I..

He cant hit me, so he looops up, over, and comes straight down on me in the tail-slide..

Well I'll be darned if he aint dead-center in that 109's death-dot..

I pegged the trigger on all guns and lit him up with 30mm like a Christmas tree, and he exploded.

Before I hit terra firma this Private Message appeared in white on my text buffer:

"NICE HO RV6 YOU SKILL-LESS DWEEB!"

You have GOT, to be kidding me..

(true story)

RV6 ~
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Westy on September 15, 2005, 07:40:32 AM
"can't remember what *I* flew"


(http://www.pacificwrecks.com/photos/current/odgers/cockpit.jpg)



Not sure "flew" is what I would have called it but hey! If you were able to make engine and machine guns noises I guess it would work.   ;)
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Morpheus on September 15, 2005, 07:50:17 AM
why even waste your time? talking about this is pointless. Do a search on HO.

Then you'll realize why.

Live with it... Deal with it... Get over it.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Wolfala on September 15, 2005, 01:04:44 PM
All I can say is, thank god for girlfriends.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Gloves on September 15, 2005, 02:38:25 PM
The only way one can be HO'd is by HO'ing.  If you don't like them, don't do them.  

btw, my definition of a HO is when the noses of both planes are pointing at each other.  

Glove
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: FiLtH on September 16, 2005, 10:28:25 AM
Been outta town for a few days. Tilt it wasnt the A8. I started out in the Ki84, then P38, then F6F, and ended in the 109K for its murderous fire and forget technology :)

  Ive found that most AW guys who liked to dogfight like ww1 pilots enjoyed the no-ho rule. The others who wanted to bnz and snipe hated it, and probably are supporters of it here. C'est la veal.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Murdr on September 23, 2005, 03:02:27 PM
/cm gunnery HeadonDamageChance = 0.030000
/cm gunnery BuffHeadonDamageChance = 0.300000
/cm gunnery HeadonAngle = -0.707000
/cm gunnery HeadonCutoffDist = 100
/cm gunnery UseScalarHeadonDamage = 0.000000

I did not remember correctly....it was 3% chance of a head on hit aginst fighters, and 30% aginst buffs for AW.  Just happen to stumble across my old CM stuff lol.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: TDeacon on September 23, 2005, 07:25:59 PM
FiLtH,

This is a common recurring topic, as you can see if you search the boards.  

The point made in most of them is that head-ons are almost always avoidable.  I assume you do not believe this statement?  

If this is the case, there are lots of experienced players who would probably be willing to demonstrate this avoidability to you, either in the TA or the DA.  Once they convince you that head-ons ARE avoidable, I assume that you would drop your request that they be artificially prohibited.  

Remember, that in the WWII "real world", head-ons were not uncommon.  Prohibiting them in AH would not only violate real-world physics, but would be historically wrong.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: FiLtH on September 23, 2005, 09:11:18 PM
Deacon, if you re-read my post, the main reason for my complaint isnt so much the HO (which im not a fan of though) its the way my graphics show a guy going one way, and then reverse, without me seeing anyother flight path change by him in the turn, and suddenly tracers are coming at me, when I expect him to still be going the other way. It happens to me alot, not just once in awhile.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: TDeacon on September 24, 2005, 08:23:02 AM
Sorry if I misinterpreted your emphasis.  However, th thread overall did seem to stray into the "let's ban HOs" area.  

If this happens a lot to you, why couldn't you send a film to HTC?
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: DREDIOCK on September 24, 2005, 09:10:35 AM
I just point em out to the world on 200.
"Nice HO (insert pilot name)"

The ones that crack me up are the ones that come back with "low angle deflection shot" cause they may be off by a few degrees of a true nose to nose encounter

Gimme a break, its an HO shot. if we were exactly dead on (which probably happens about 1% of the time) you still would have taken the HO shot. You know it. And I  know it. So please stop trying to justify your lameness. Your not kidding anyone.

another one that really cracks me up is when I have 3,4,5 all trying to gangbang me, and every one of then is trying for the HO,,every pass.
Even more comical is as often as not they still manage to miss.
If you and 4,5 of your buddies are ganging up on one plane, and you still have to try the HO shot. Either your very much hard up for kills, Your very frustrated, or you truely do lack skill of any kind.

Now what I'm going to do is what I did last night. The moment someone tries the HO All bets are off.

If I see you firing at me on the merge I will now fire back and kill you or let you ram into me. then announce it to he world
"You wanted to HO (insert pilot name),OK we went HO"


I prefer not to HO any time in the fight and as a rule I dont and wont unless you have first tried to HO me.

I'd much rather have an honorable fight. Win loose or draw.
Much more fun.

There are times when an HO is acceptable I think.

Your being gangbanged by 3 or more planes,
Your being vulchedon takeoff and are otherwise defenceless
When attacking bombers

Outside of that. I think its a pretty lame way to get kills.
If you concentrated on your ACMs as much as you do in trying to HO. You would find yourself a much better pilot in the long run and you wont find yourself outflown as often when you've missed
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: FiLtH on September 24, 2005, 10:29:02 AM
I rarely film as I never do anything spectacular. The only films I have are of bomber formations.  I may start filming more when in fighters so I can catch one of these sights for you guys to see. Its rather odd. Its as if the plane doesnt turn..it seems to rotate. Its when the plane is over 1k out. Any closer and I will see the plane turn...but when its past 1k is when I see this.
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: DREDIOCK on September 24, 2005, 08:09:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by FiLtH
I rarely film as I never do anything spectacular. The only films I have are of bomber formations.  I may start filming more when in fighters so I can catch one of these sights for you guys to see. Its rather odd. Its as if the plane doesnt turn..it seems to rotate. Its when the plane is over 1k out. Any closer and I will see the plane turn...but when its past 1k is when I see this.


I know what your talking about I think.
I even mentioned it in another thread where to me it looked like the plane was flying backwards at me.

I intitially thought I was manuvering and getting ready to set up on his 6 then I noticed he was comming at me butt end first from my 2:00 as I was trying to manuver fo a shot. then his plane flips around and he's facing me. Really screwed up my timeing and what I was going to do
Title: Head on shots should burnin hayell
Post by: Krusty on September 24, 2005, 09:19:57 PM
Deleted Rule 8.