Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Phaser11 on September 13, 2005, 07:47:00 AM
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Worth Mentioning
I keep hearing the best way to deal with a HO is to avoid it. Well that is easier said than done. You will only avoid about 50% to 60% of HO’s if the other pilot is bent on doing it. The HO is not just a 1-pass option. Every turn the person will try it again and again and again.
Yes, yes there are thousands of ACM’s to beat the HO, but they will not work all the time. A dedicated HO specialist will get you no matter what you try. I have seen guys get on my six, miss and miss then break, I turn to chase, they go up and over….smack right in the nose.
I started congratulating these gamers with some witty line like, “Nice HO you looser, nitwit, bacon stealing, non pilot…..” well you get the picture. The answer is always the same, “it was a deflection shot” or “You where just out flown” and so on. Where this could be very true, I have come to the point in this “GAME” where it just doesn’t matter.
The best advice is to avoid the HO or share the love and send some back. You’re only going to avoid half the HO’s anyway. Call your squad, the local guys and gals on your side and offer a reward to the person who gets the whatever that HO’d you. I found the offer of free beer would usually do the trick.
Here are some questions (with my answers in them)
Do you HO? Yes
Do you avoid the HO? Yes
Do you HO all the time? No
Do you HO when no one is looking? I don’t think you can do that.
DO you HO bombers? Yes
Do you HO Fighters? Yes
Do you HO vehicles? Yes
What else have you HO’ed? Ducks, Pheasants and other upland game birds
If Hoing were against the rules would you still do it? Yes
Have you been to any classes to be a HO? No
Have you Hoed with anyone out side of this game? Hmmmmm
Have you ever been arrested for Hoing anyone? No
That’s it! Hoing is against the law!
I AM LOOSING MY MIND! …drool
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Well phaser, gonna say this in a nice way... you are wrong. Totally and completly wrong. 50% - 60% you think. I avoid pretty much 99.9% of all HO's directed at me. It has to do with judging the situation, know what he plans to do and do something to counter it. Head ons are easy to avoid unles you are flying very slow (coming around in a loop or such), and if you are very slow and get HO:ed it's your own fault and you deserve to die.
The HO is not just a 1-pass option. Every turn the person will try it again and again and again.
The meaning of air-combat is to get on your opponents six and shoot him down where he is defenceless. If you fail this you will die or keep going back to your HO:ing (and then die, be it you may take the other guy with you). If he keeps getting a HO shot, you are doing something wrong.
A dedicated HO specialist will get you no matter what you try.
Wrong
You’re only going to avoid half the HO’s anyway.
Wrong
The answer is always the same, “it was a deflection shot” or “You where just out flown” and so on.
A HO would be defined as to when both planes have guns on eachother. A shot from 20 degree above and front is not a HO, it's a deflection shot.
A shot after a Rope where you are hanging and stalling out is not a AH, it's a rope.
A shot from the front quarter (not counting when both have guns on eachother) is not a HO.
Anything else when both don't have guns or very close to on is not a HO.
As for question:
Do you HO? NO
Do you avoid the HO? YES
Do you HO all the time? Read #1
Do you HO when no one is looking? Can be done if they are AFK but again read #1
DO you HO bombers? YES (#1 doesn't apply here)
Do you HO Fighters? NO
Do you HO vehicles? I shoot em from whatever direction may be best so I guess YES (#1 doesn't apply here either)
What else have you HO’ed? Insects when driving a car and bikecycling. Those HO:s I always win though.
If Hoing were against the rules would you still do it? NO
Have you been to any classes to be a HO? NO
Have you Hoed with anyone out side of this game? Ran into people not sure if that counts.
Have you ever been arrested for Hoing anyone? NO
Last thing... you're wrong ;)
If you want it proven I'll gladly go to DA with you and let you head on me all the best you can. Best out of 10 flights, same plane. You won't kill me in a single HO pass.
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Thanks Lephturn! (wonder what he's been up to ???)
Anyway. Here is the quintessential expose' on handling HO's:
Avoid the HO
http://users.eastlink.ca/~sconrad/hodefense.htm
Read it. Practice it! And just plain quit your (your= anyone who whines 'bout HO's) little girl hissy fits about em.
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Hehehehehehe
I love this subject! Sorry no date Wilbus.
:D
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Fly a CHOG.
Turn tracers off.
Set convergence to max distance(eg 650)
Mute CH200.
Start pourin the lead at 1.7 and break off the HO at -800.
Don't feel :cry one bit.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
quote:
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A dedicated HO specialist will get you no matter what you try.
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Wrong
I may be a little rusty, but its all I did for 6 months on my first year here. Wana give it a try (I could be wrong)? You have no chance against a HO pro especially if he is in a turn fighter.
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Thought so Phaser :)
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Sure thing Dedalos!
When are you online?
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i would have to agree that avoiding the ho all the time is impossible, especially if there is 2 or 3 enemas. Technically any shot not 100% head is on is not a ho..however i consider a ho any attempt by the enemy to bring you into a headon firing solution..when i pull out of a head on pass and into my merge and the guys shoots i still think its a ho..but thats just me. i have been experimenting with firing back and found it to be alot more effective than just pulling away, let em know your there...
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I gripe about the HO alot manly because i feel it is a, for the most part, a useles tactic. If you win the HO all the better for you but most times both planes take damage. If i am up furballing I am looking to get a bunch of kills and rtb. If i HO someone and take damage then it shortens my time flying and killing. What do i consider a HO Dweeb. If i am merging with a plane and at about 1.2k i begin to spin, dive, climb, whatever i can to avoid the HO and they start spraying away with there cannons when i haven't even fired a shot. Don't try to give me this "it takes 2 to HO" crap. If both planes are merging and blasting away thats where the quote applys. if 1 is blasting away and the other is trying everything to avoid it then thats not 2 people HOing But This Is A Game and the fact that you can lose a HO and be back in the fight in seconds gives some guys A free ticket to HO.
Do I ever HO Yes (if i have no choice or at a vulched field)
Do i avoid the HO Yes ( i will try to avoid almost every HO)
oh well thats just my two cents.
:)
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Had one last night that I thought for a sec was a HO.
I came running in on a low Hurr IIc. Saw it was a Hurri IIc and said to myself no way am I getting messed up by those 4 20mms.
He was turning into me so it looked to be a head on pass. I slid off high and left and thought I'd passed him, figuring there's no way I'm turning with him in my 38G and I'd use my speed to my advantage. Next thing I know I'm in pieces of flaming wreckage headed for the ground.
First reaction was how the heck did he get me as I'd from my perspective avoided giving him a HO.
I'd by chance had film on and went back to see. Turns out old Herblife had been able to pull his nose in further as I passed and made a heckuva snapshot, tearing me up.
First reaction was I'd somehow been head on shot. But in the end it was just a great shot despite my effort to avoid it.
I think that happens more often then just the plain old HO, although I will admit it's amazing how often you some guys start firing as you go in nose to nose at the merge.
I'm still stuck with that old AW notion of not shooting head on. Kinda dumb that way :)
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Before I was married I HO'd around all the time.
If I see tracers flying at me from 1.2K out I do my best to avoid. I will however get on this persons six and shoot them down.
I normally only HO M3's. I top shoot M8's and Osti's.
I will HO every Buff I can and then climb away for a high speed pass.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Well phaser, gonna say this in a nice way... you are wrong. Totally and completly wrong. 50% - 60% you think. I avoid pretty much 99.9% of all HO's directed at me. It has to do with judging the situation, know what he plans to do and do something to counter it. Head ons are easy to avoid unles you are flying very slow (coming around in a loop or such), and if you are very slow and get HO:ed it's your own fault and you deserve to die.
The meaning of air-combat is to get on your opponents six and shoot him down where he is defenceless. If you fail this you will die or keep going back to your HO:ing (and then die, be it you may take the other guy with you). If he keeps getting a HO shot, you are doing something wrong.
Wrong
Wrong
A HO would be defined as to when both planes have guns on eachother. A shot from 20 degree above and front is not a HO, it's a deflection shot.
A shot after a Rope where you are hanging and stalling out is not a AH, it's a rope.
A shot from the front quarter (not counting when both have guns on eachother) is not a HO.
Anything else when both don't have guns or very close to on is not a HO.
As for question:
Do you HO? NO
Do you avoid the HO? YES
Do you HO all the time? Read #1
Do you HO when no one is looking? Can be done if they are AFK but again read #1
DO you HO bombers? YES (#1 doesn't apply here)
Do you HO Fighters? NO
Do you HO vehicles? I shoot em from whatever direction may be best so I guess YES (#1 doesn't apply here either)
What else have you HO’ed? Insects when driving a car and bikecycling. Those HO:s I always win though.
If Hoing were against the rules would you still do it? NO
Have you been to any classes to be a HO? NO
Have you Hoed with anyone out side of this game? Ran into people not sure if that counts.
Have you ever been arrested for Hoing anyone? NO
Last thing... you're wrong ;)
If you want it proven I'll gladly go to DA with you and let you head on me all the best you can. Best out of 10 flights, same plane. You won't kill me in a single HO pass.
:aok tHAT IS EXACTLY WHAT i WOULD HAVE SAID! I will HO however when upping vulched field and not off ground yet. I up vulched bases every chance I get. But the HO is a very weak unskilled move that way too many in here depend on.
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Originally posted by loony1
I gripe about the HO alot manly because i feel it is a, for the most part, a useles tactic. If you win the HO all the better for you but most times both planes take damage. If i am up furballing I am looking to get a bunch of kills and rtb. If i HO someone and take damage then it shortens my time flying and killing. What do i consider a HO Dweeb. If i am merging with a plane and at about 1.2k i begin to spin, dive, climb, whatever i can to avoid the HO and they start spraying away with there cannons when i haven't even fired a shot. Don't try to give me this "it takes 2 to HO" crap. If both planes are merging and blasting away thats where the quote applys. if 1 is blasting away and the other is trying everything to avoid it then thats not 2 people HOing But This Is A Game and the fact that you can lose a HO and be back in the fight in seconds gives some guys A free ticket to HO.
Do I ever HO Yes (if i have no choice or at a vulched field)
Do i avoid the HO Yes ( i will try to avoid almost every HO)
oh well thats just my two cents.
:)
I agree with your comment that "takes two to HO" is crap. I hear certain squads use that all the "Dmned" time. THey come in looking for it, their choice of plane is centered around it, and their mentality is justifiable about it, but in the end the HO is a dweeby, unskilled tactic. lol I do occasionally find myself in situations, where I have no E in a turn or at top of loop, and I squeez off rounds at the HO guy but I try at all times to do something else. I accidentally HO'd dipstick the other day in a good fight cause I thought I had high deflection solution but by the time the rounds were hitting him he was almost dead on in front of me. So I do make mistakes in judgment but I try to be better than just a silly HO atttempt.:D
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If one plane has a significant manueverablility advantage it can force a pure HO, or at the very least a forward quarter deflection shot, regardless of what the other plane does. There are only three situations I will intentionally accept rather than attempt to avoid a HO.
1) The other guy is a 262
2) I roped him but he is still floundering at the top of the loop nose up, with gravity assist on my side I can get him easily on the way down with little risk to myself.
3) I have no other viable option, for some reason I was caught low and slow against plane(s) that can out-manuever me.
Zazen
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Headons are good fun! They're a perfectly valid tactic IMO, particularly when fighting off BnZers. I'll try to lull them into a certain pattern of attacking me with my dodging in a set way every time, and then at some unpredictable moment I'll crank the nose around and give them a faceful of 20mm Hispano love.
You'd be amazed how well it works. Often this is the one single shot I'll get against a really timid BnZer. Gotta make it count.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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HO'ing is something neccesary, especially with a slower but more nimble vs faster plane
The faster plane will make constant passes on the slower plane, which will turn (with it's superior turning capacity) into the diver to get a shot at him
It happens to me alot
It is, however, the simpliest, most usual manoeuvre of many 'less experienced' pilots
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If you have altitude and speed, you should beable to avoid the HO. If you lack either of those you might be in trouble. Like Wilbus said if you are coming around in a loop or such, I hope you have cannons and are a good shot.
I will have to admit I like to take a 190A-8 out some times and HO anyone that points their nose at me:aok
But normally it is fun to watch someone blow a bunch of E trying get that HO shot.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Sure thing Dedalos!
When are you online?
Every night after 9 central. It may be harder now with the new hit bubble, but in AH1, there was no escape. You would atlist get hurt.
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Originally posted by loony1
If i am merging with a plane and at about 1.2k i begin to spin, dive, climb, whatever i can to avoid the HO and they start spraying away with there cannons when i haven't even fired a shot.
And if he misses, you messed up your merge and most likelly will now die.
Guppy, same as above. You gave him a shot by avoiding the HO. Its a game of chicken.
If I am in a SpitV and you start trying to avoid a ho at 1.2k by turning away, you may as well bail.
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Got to agree with Wilbus and I'll add that the deliberate HOer is a 6 shot in the making. So easy to avoid 1 on 1 HOing and attain the 6. Just that 1/2 the time you can't catch the buggers.
It's timming and learning how to deny the enemy a gun solution whilst gaining advantage.
Rather than throw your hands in the air and come up with a statement tantermount to "If you can't beat um, join um". Try using some rudder to throw your plane clean out the way. Or pull straight up (perhaps cutting throttle as you do...depending) and revers back the way you came.
Most HOers, if not runners to, will have gone under you and inturn pulled up to reverse on you for another HO shot but your already 1 step ahead (your near level while their still pulling up) and shoot his canopy while he tries to bring his nose back around..... Do not give up trying because there will be a moment when u realise these guys have NO CHANCE in a 1 on 1 HO of hitting you.
If you don't have a twisty stick use "A.S.D" for rudders. If you don't have throttle control use "E" on and off
I take it you have unchecked "Stall Limiter" and that you know how to turn off and when to turn off "Combat trim"
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Not having the 3D imagination to see how these anti-HO maneuvers work offensively (at least without giving the baddie a kill shot), I've resorted to a very effective defensive tactic -- a simple barrel roll.
As they enter firing range, just do a roll as you fly past. They jerk around trying to keep you in sights, losing E in the process, and the MOST I have taken is a single ping -- but I usually come through clean. Once past, or soemtimes just before, I stop rolling, pull up, Immel, and look for the bad guy's 6.
I'm no ace, and dont pretend to be -- but it works for me.
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Do you HO? Depends on what I'm flying.
Do you avoid the HO? See above.
Do you HO all the time? See above.
Do you HO when no one is looking? I don’t think you can do that. See above.
DO you HO bombers? Absolutely
Do you HO Fighters? See question #1.
Do you HO vehicles? I aim for the center of mass.
What else have you HO’ed? Sheep.
If Hoing were against the rules would you still do it? Yes.
Have you been to any classes to be a HO? No.
Have you Hoed with anyone out side of this game? I'll never tell
Have you ever been arrested for Hoing anyone? It's not the arrests that matter. It's the convictions.
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Originally posted by frank3
It is, however, the simpliest, most usual manoeuvre of many 'less experienced' pilots
Yeah... guys like Leviathn. ;)
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Originally posted by LYNX
Got to agree with Wilbus and I'll add that the deliberate HOer is a 6 shot in the making. So easy to avoid 1 on 1 HOing and attain the 6. Just that 1/2 the time you can't catch the buggers.
It's timming and learning how to deny the enemy a gun solution whilst gaining advantage.
Rather than throw your hands in the air and come up with a statement tantermount to "If you can't beat um, join um". Try using some rudder to throw your plane clean out the way. Or pull straight up (perhaps cutting throttle as you do...depending) and revers back the way you came.
Most HOers, if not runners to, will have gone under you and inturn pulled up to reverse on you for another HO shot but your already 1 step ahead (your near level while their still pulling up) and shoot his canopy while he tries to bring his nose back around..... Do not give up trying because there will be a moment when u realise these guys have NO CHANCE in a 1 on 1 HO of hitting you.
If you don't have a twisty stick use "A.S.D" for rudders. If you don't have throttle control use "E" on and off
I take it you have unchecked "Stall Limiter" and that you know how to turn off and when to turn off "Combat trim"
I think it is time to put an end to this noncence about HOs being easy to avoid and how everyone will get on the HOers 6 by pulling up, using ruder, and other magic tricks. If anyone wants to try their tacticks, I'll be on after 9 central. Let go to DA and find out. If nothing else, it will be a good avoid the HO practise. Here the rules.
1) I'LL do everything possible to HO you.
2) You don't HO but try to avoid the HO and do the majic trick that gets you on my 6 after I miss and fly under your nose (why does everyone say that anyway?)
The HOer has the advantage in every fight if you just try to avoid. Only way to beat him is to not get into a HO merge situation. Once there, if he knows what he is doing and you don;t take the HO, you are done.
Oh, and it anly takes 1 idiot to HO. Not 2.
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9 central what Dedalos? Central European time? I was looking for you in the MA last evening.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
9 central what Dedalos? Central European time? I was looking for you in the MA last evening.
Sorry, I stopped in the DA and did not come out till midnite :D
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Originally posted by jaxxo
i would have to agree that avoiding the ho all the time is impossible, especially if there is 2 or 3 enemas. Technically any shot not 100% head is on is not a ho..however i consider a ho any attempt by the enemy to bring you into a headon firing solution..when i pull out of a head on pass and into my merge and the guys shoots i still think its a ho..but thats just me. i have been experimenting with firing back and found it to be alot more effective than just pulling away, let em know your there...
thats pretty much my feelings about it.
When I get HO'd I'll just congradulate em by name on 200 with something like "Nice HO player name" or "WTG on the HO player name" for all to see.
When I first got here I used to HO. But saw the light when I realised it didnt help me get any better at anything else then HOing by doing it
Typically, I wont HO even when outnumbered unless the numbers keep trying to HO me on each pass
And I wont do it at all in a 1 V 1 or general furball.
My latest thing that I think I am going to start doing on a regular basis is I will HO when the opposing pilot first tries to HO me.
Then all bets are off and we will see how well your 50 cal rounds match up to my cannon rounds
I will HO Bombers without hessitation as I always try to attack bombers from the 10,11,12,1 & 2:00 positions
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Rgr Dedalos, if I find you online tonight we'll go do it, equal planes, equal fuel, equal alt. Everything like a duel only that you will HO me and I will avoid.
How about spit 5's? A plane you often meet in the air.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Rgr Dedalos, if I find you online tonight we'll go do it, equal planes, equal fuel, equal alt. Everything like a duel only that you will HO me and I will avoid.
How about spit 5's? A plane you often meet in the air.
Cool, worst case cenario is that we learn something out of it
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Yup :)
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Dedalos, will be ok at 10 central instead? Can't make it at 9...
Should be there at 10 or little earlier.
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I still remember pacerr calling me "HO dweeb" cause I shot his 262 engine in a HO that he tried to avoid at 1.2K :p ....against my mossie lol. Mossie got very good over nose visiblity wich permits incredible neg G shots, not to mention the 4 nose hispanos.....the must of the HOer.
So I decided pple should call me "his HOness"
more seriously if you HO you can shoot from 1.2k and get good hits cause the relative bullet speed is HUGE, so the time the bullet goes out the cannon, the guy will be real closer....if you know what I mean :huh, so if you shoot from 1.2k to 800 then avoid in brutal neg G's you should be ok...maye be few pings in tail but the other guy will loose oil.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Rgr Dedalos, if I find you online tonight we'll go do it, equal planes, equal fuel, equal alt. Everything like a duel only that you will HO me and I will avoid.
How about spit 5's? A plane you often meet in the air.
Forgot to mention that if you avoid the HO and I miss, I should end up in a disadvantage
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Actually Dedalos I the adantage/disadvantage thing is little of a myth IMO. But what is true is that the dedicated HO specialst usually knows nothing about ACM.
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The fundamental rule of HOing has, as far as I can tell, been overlooked. It's simple... don't miss. :)
HOing is fun (http://www.furballunderground.com/Guest/HO.ahf)
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Actually Dedalos I the adantage/disadvantage thing is little of a myth IMO. But what is true is that the dedicated HO specialst usually knows nothing about ACM.
lol, thats what I wanted to prove, that the HOer is not going to lose because you tried to avoid the ho. Pulling up too early or plaing with your ruder at 1K out will kill ya for sure if the HO does not. I was looking for one of the guys that know the majic move that kills all the HOers :)
Not true about the ACM thingy. I know of a lot of good pilits and a few with a very high K/D ratio that will HO you in a hart beat.
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Dedalos, anyone who tries to HO me dies, it pretty much never fails unless he's got plenty of friends.
There is no magic move for anything of course, that is why air-combat is so much fun in AH and similair games, you have to judge every situation.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I think it is time to put an end to this noncence about HOs being easy to avoid and how everyone will get on the HOers 6 by pulling up, using ruder, and other magic tricks. If anyone wants to try their tacticks, I'll be on after 9 central. Let go to DA and find out. If nothing else, it will be a good avoid the HO practise. Here the rules.
Would like to do the DA to prove a point but thats 3 am GMT for me. Perhaps over the weekend?
1) I'LL do everything possible to HO you.
2) You don't HO but try to avoid the HO and do the majic trick that gets you on my 6 after I miss and fly under your nose (why does everyone say that anyway?
The HOer has the advantage in every fight if you just try to avoid. Only way to beat him is to not get into a HO merge situation. Once there, if he knows what he is doing and you don;t take the HO, you are done.
I disagree here. HOer has no advantage it's going to boil done to a few factors pilots, ACM and to some degree plane types.
Oh, and it anly takes 1 idiot to HO. Not 2.
Very true:p
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Originally posted by LYNX
Very true:p
Same plane same pilot skills
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HO's are allowed here so....people grab cannon armed a/c and....go after other a/c head on. There aren't many geniuses who fly this game; even the newwest newbee figures this out and acquire the HO as their only form of acm. It works so, they then begin to see themselves as great pilits.
The HO is contagious, like most things in this game. You see a bug in the game and...exploit until someone screams long enough and loud enough to get it fixed.
The HO is not a bug, it is merely a looked down upon (in a lot of cases) method of ...ahem... acm.
This community is comprised of many types; some who see themselves as purists; some are gamers plain and simple, some are point potatos, and some are realists; ie: everyone is doing it, so I will too.
To get pissed at an improbable HO or, a collision during an HO is fruitless. We almost always fail to consider the X factor; the quality of a persons' connection has a major effect on the success or failure of an HO attempt. So, if I am a plain and simple gamer, I will figure the odds, and continue using my only acm move...the HO. Perhaps 50% or more of my hops I will get the kill and live, the other 50% or less, I will get killed...not a bad K/D..."and I only just started this game!!! I'm great!!! Maybe I'll even get asked to join a squad!!!:aok
So, IMO screw it. It aint gonna change. Just fly for fun, avoid the HO by use of superior acm; watch out for the cannon armed a/c; they will almost always turn to you for the HO cuz, they can't get away from your superior acm, and have fun:cool:
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Watched a History program about WWII fighters pilots and the interveiwer asked.. "Did you ever go for for a head on shot?"... Bob ? (can't remember Sir name) replied " If they came from the sun....every time". He later went on to explain that they always pulled off.
Makes sence to me, kinda, because are you going to reverse into the HOer who is now in the sun.