Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 1K3 on September 13, 2005, 04:04:50 PM

Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: 1K3 on September 13, 2005, 04:04:50 PM
For example

IF Spitfire 14 gets +21 boost and Spitfire 16 gets +25 boost, can 109K-4 get   the 1.98 ata boost and as a bonus - an upgraded BMW 801 engine for 190A-8?

:D
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: straffo on September 13, 2005, 04:12:53 PM
no

















What other answer do you expected ?
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: 1K3 on September 13, 2005, 04:23:21 PM
reason?

(let me try this) :furious
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Guppy35 on September 13, 2005, 04:29:35 PM
Here's the deal.  Whenever the RAF fans bring up points about Spit performance, there are certain folks who come in screaming bloody murder that it was small numbers, there is no proof or the proof is a lie, etc etc.

This also applies in the other direction.

I would be of the opinion that if HTC decides to allow top end performance for an Axis bird, then the top end should be allowed for an Allied bird.  

But I'm guessing there will be a middle ground somewhere and we won't see +25 boost anymore then 1.98 ata boost.
Title: Re: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Bronk on September 13, 2005, 05:14:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
For example

IF Spitfire 14 gets +21 boost and Spitfire 16 gets +25 boost, can 109K-4 get   the 1.98 ata boost and as a bonus - an upgraded BMW 801 engine for 190A-8?

:D

  Shure your fw can get the upgraded engine.
As long as we spit dweebs can get the spit XII . :D
OHHH it has to be unperked also .:p
Title: Re: Re: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Guppy35 on September 13, 2005, 05:49:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
Shure your fw can get the upgraded engine.
As long as we spit dweebs can get the spit XII . :D
OHHH it has to be unperked also .:p


Bronk clearly understands!  :)

Operational in 43-44.  Not an end of the war bird.  Built to go like a bat outa h*** on the deck.  Bring on the Spit XII

(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1103870266_41spitxiis.jpg)
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on September 13, 2005, 06:11:04 PM
While we're adding boost and all, lets go ahead and step the P-38L-1-Lo on up to the true ratings from both Lockheed and GM/Allison for the -30 engines it had:

64" boost @ 3000 RPM = 1725HP WEP
or
60" boost @ 3200RPM = 1725HP WEP



This won't happen either, but we can all dream and enjoy.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Bronk on September 13, 2005, 08:02:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Bronk clearly understands!  :)

Operational in 43-44.  Not an end of the war bird.  Built to go like a bat outa h*** on the deck.  Bring on the Spit XII

(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1103870266_41spitxiis.jpg)

 My ohh my those birds are pretty. Guppy wernt those spits specificly designed to take on FW 190s at low alts?


 Bronk
Title: Re: Affirmative action pls
Post by: frank3 on September 13, 2005, 08:04:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
IF Spitfire 14 gets +21 boost and Spitfire 16 gets +25 boost, can 109K-4 get   the 1.98 ata boost and as a bonus


Do we have a Bf-109K?? I should check for new patches abit more often!
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Bronk on September 13, 2005, 08:08:14 PM
Next patch suppose to have new spits and 109s.





Bronk
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: frank3 on September 13, 2005, 08:12:29 PM
oh darn...even more of those spits? I thought we already had what...7?
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Bronk on September 13, 2005, 08:24:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by frank3
oh darn...even more of those spits? I thought we already had what...7?



ERM lemee see now.
seafire
Mk I
Mk V
Mk IX
Mk XIV
 Thats 5

109 e
109 f
109 G2
109 G6
109 G10
  Thats 5 also.
Please do not complain about getting ANY new planes. Thats just silly.

Bronk
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Karnak on September 13, 2005, 09:04:56 PM
1K3,

Remember, Pyro said the Mk XVI is mostly likely going to be at +18lbs boost.  That dings one off your list.

The Mk XIV is a perk plane, and that gives a flexibility that is lacking in the freely available aircraft.  Even so it may remain at +18lbs boost as well.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: frank3 on September 13, 2005, 09:31:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
Please do not complain about getting ANY new planes. Thats just silly.

Bronk


Well I don't complain, personally I just don't like the spit
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Guppy35 on September 13, 2005, 10:02:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
My ohh my those birds are pretty. Guppy wernt those spits specificly designed to take on FW 190s at low alts?


 Bronk


Yep, they were out to stop the low alt 190 fighter bomber raids on the South Coast of England in early 43.  They did OK at it too.  Then they escorted medium bombers of the RAF and USAAF to French targets.  High scoring RAF fighter Squadron in the Fall of 43 was 91 Squadron flying XIIs. They along with 41 Squadron flying XIIs formed the Tangmere Wing and did some good work in the Summer of 43 into early 44.  Later 41 did a lot of V-1 hunting in their XIIs in the Summer of 44.

They excelled low and fast.  They'd be a blast in the MA  since it's much more of a low alt airwar.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Knegel on September 14, 2005, 03:30:51 AM
He he,

i would be happy if my beloved A8 would get its smal drag(not only smal lift), so i would be able to outaccelerate the SpitV and IX in a dive. ;)

1800HP, the high weight and this smal wings should do the job in a dive and the following upzoom. :D

Who care what the FM makers tell about the used specs? Important is a credible AND playable result.

Realy, can anyone get happy with the , Ki84, La7, Temp or Spit5??  Or with the funny US combatflaps, which let them turn better than anything else, of course without to bleed energy like mad?? Or with the 109´s, which dont stop to accelerate in a dive, even with dead eng?

I would like to see a more credible 'induced drag, zero drag, inertia and thrust calculation' all over, instead of new planes.

Of course its dreaming too. :)


Greetings, Knegel
Title: Re: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Kev367th on September 14, 2005, 05:00:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
For example

IF Spitfire 14 gets +21 boost and Spitfire 16 gets +25 boost, can 109K-4 get   the 1.98 ata boost and as a bonus - an upgraded BMW 801 engine for 190A-8?

:D


Spit 14 operated at 21lbs starting late 1944, earliest Spit 16 at 25lbs was May 1944.
Spit 14 is getting redone at 21lbs according to Pyro, the 16 is coming in at 18lbs because he's worried about its climb rate.

Documents form both sqn level and the Ministry of Defence prove the boost levels.

As for the 109K4 - Anything I have ever seen shows a few 109-G10s used 1.98ata Jan 1945 for operational testing only. Anything posted on 1.98ata use by the K4 relies on personal: "we can suppose", "we can assume", "its a fair guess" etc.
In fact a doc I dug up clearly shows Mar/Apr 1945 109K4 were not using the fuel required for 1.98ata.
Same goes for flettners - Yes there are pics of K4 with flettners, not one actually shows the operating actuator fitted, in fact they were locked down and unusable.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Bronk on September 14, 2005, 02:46:43 PM
Hijack
  Not to turn this into a spit XII thread . Why wouldn't HTC model this spit variant ?  It just seems to me that even perked this aircraft was made for MA play style. If it were my decision drop the XVI and make the XII . Before the whine starts about how rare a bird it was.  More spt XII seen combat than 3 gun La7s. Also they were operational in 43. Just my 2 cents



Bronk
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Karnak on September 14, 2005, 03:02:35 PM
Bronk,

We need a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe or LF.Mk XVI to cover ToD in the later stages of the war.  The 1942 F.Mk IX we have is horribly out classed in anything other than a brawl.

The Mk XII, while it did see heavy combat, only had 120 examples built.  That is lower than the C.205 or N1K2-J or the three gun La-7.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Bronk on September 14, 2005, 03:41:24 PM
Karnak
 How does the spit XVI compare to the XII and FW 190 A8.


Bronk
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Knegel on September 15, 2005, 01:51:53 AM
Hey, the current SpitIXc is already more than a match for the FW190A8, the 190A8 only can hit and run, a real combat is almost impossible. The current Spit climb better, have a better upzoom, very similar diveacceleration and keep energy like hell while turning(it should be the other way around at medium to highspeed). This shal be a 1942 SpitIXc with merlin61?? The SpitV, some like other planes with smal wingload, is even more funny regarding the energy bleed, specialy at highspeed and tight turns. Looks to me that the AH FM makers dont know that a smal Liftload not only let a plane turn more tight, but at same time it bleed energy like mad. In Ah its like this: Smal wingload = great vertical upzoom and smal E-bleed while turning and climbing.
No wonder that the FM makers start to worry about incredible good climbrations of some planes, if they dont get the drag calculations right.  
As result the Spit14 is in most aspects more bad than the Spit5. I guess there isnt a Spit5 at all, its a simple dotbug and its a SpitIXc with merlin66. lol

btw, i dont wont better 190A´s, i like the challenge to fly it, but better Spits would make the 190A´s senceless, its already hard enough.

Greetings,
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Karnak on September 15, 2005, 10:01:49 AM
Knegel,

A)Saying "Spit IXc" does not tell us much about it as it could be a Merlin 61, Merlin 63 at 15 or 21lbs, Merlin 66 at 18 or 25lbs boost.  It is a Spitfire F.Mk IX using a Merlin 61 at +15lbs boost.  It is completely outclassed by the Fw190A-8 and later if those aircraft are flown to their strengths.  The Bf109G-14 will probably be added as well giving a better Bf109 to play with too.

B) The Spitfire Mk Vb is being reduced in boost from +16lbs to +12lbs.

Bronk,

The Spitfire LF.Mk XVI at +18lbs boost should have a top speed of about 404mph around 20,000ft and a top sea level speed of 335mph or so.  It will have clipped wings, so it will roll a bit better than current Spits, but give up a bit in terms of turning radius.  Climb rate should be above 4,000fpm initially.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Squire on September 16, 2005, 10:38:16 PM
I think HTC will be fair and reasonable. I wouldnt get too worked up about it, we dont even know for sure what the new varients will be yet. So far its a lot of "best guesses".

Lets see what we end up with.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Krusty on September 17, 2005, 12:05:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
It is a Spitfire F.Mk IX using a Merlin 61 at +15lbs boost.  It is completely outclassed by the Fw190A-8 and later if those aircraft are flown to their strengths.


The two planes have almost the same top speed. They trade a few MPH for one or the other, then swap about a thousand feet above that best speed alt. The Spit9 (the one we have) handles far better, can turn infinitely tighter, can climb like the wind itself is lifting it into the air, is very user friendly, and dives/accelerates, as has been mentioned, too well. The A8 has... um... Well it can't tun under 150mph.. It.. um.. Climbs like crap. It.. uh... mm... has a lotta WEP! It has great roll for evasives, but trust me this plane NEEDS to be evasive.

Not to pick on you Karnak :)

I just think a LOT of people disagree that there is no contender for the 190As in AH right now. Spit9 has them beat hands down in most areas, and in the areas it doesn't the 190a8 and spit9 are nearly equal (speed dive and acceleration).
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: straffo on September 17, 2005, 03:42:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
Hey, the current SpitIXc is already more than a match for the FW190A8, the 190A8 only can hit and run

yep and so ?
 
Quote
 a real combat is almost impossible.  [/B]

hmmm what is a real combats so ?*

 
Quote
The current Spit climb better, have a better upzoom, very similar diveacceleration and keep energy like hell while turning(it should be the other way around at medium to highspeed).  [/B]

If you can handle the spit capablities disengage at the 1st opportunity.

 
Quote
Looks to me that the AH FM makers dont know that a smal Liftload not only let a plane turn more tight, but at same time it bleed energy like mad.  [/B]

huu ??
Why are you restricting things to the sole liftload ,don't you think other factors have influence ?



* btw I think you are a spit pilot dressed in a LW fan uniform.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Karnak on September 17, 2005, 01:25:28 PM
Krusty,

That is true up higher.  I guess I think a lot in terms of the  AH MA where the fights are down low.  The 350+mph that the A-8 does on the deck is much better than the 321mph the Spit F.IX does on the deck.  Once you get high though the F.IX really comes into it's own.  The RAF found that fights weren't really happening up there though, hence the low tuned Merlin 66 powered LF series.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Krusty on September 17, 2005, 06:30:19 PM
Well, true, but the MA doesn't count because 50% of the other planes out there can still beat the 190A8. Ponies, doras, typhies, lavochkins...

Comparing the 190s to the spitfires only works in the context of historical matches (such as events, Combat Theater, or the new upcoming TOD). In these instances, where the context applies, I believe you will find more historical altitudes for fights.

I have an old file "AH_Plane_Cheat_Sheet.txt" and I forgot who put it together, but I think all the speeds are still the same.


Plane Low_Cruise High-Cruise SL Speed (w/n) Alt/Top-Speed
------- ---------- ----------- ------------- -------------
Spitfire Mk IX 376@15K 390@27K 319/310 405@26K

Fw 190A-8 347@5K 375@20K 349/327 400@19.5K


Yes 30mph can mean the difference in escaping or not escaping. However I think the spit9 holds the cards in a fight A8 vs Spit9 (current AH settings).

EDIT: Those "cruise" notes are just estimation. This is before the E6B and the cruise settings were around (from Ah1 days)
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Squire on September 17, 2005, 09:57:55 PM
"The Spit9 (the one we have) handles far better, can turn infinitely tighter, can climb like the wind itself is lifting it into the air, is very user friendly, and dives/accelerates, as has been mentioned, too well."

-This basically boils down to the same stuff as before, claiming its overmodelled, but providing no real proof. I guess the Spit is never supposed to do anything better than . I have been reading these threads since Air Warrior.

"Who care what the FM makers tell about the used specs? Important is a credible AND playable result."

"Looks to me that the AH FM makers dont know that a smal Liftload not only let a plane turn more tight, but at same time it bleed energy like mad."


-This is what happens when somebody gets a hold of some aerodynamic "theory" and starts bastardizing it to suit some conspiracy theory.

Sustained turns:

-Wings that "out turn" other wings are the ones that bleed energy less, not more.  A 190 and Spitfire both have the exact same turn rate at any given G load, the a/c that loses energy (airspeed) the slowest in a 5G turn, will be able to sustain that 5G turn the longest, without reducing to a 4G turn. So, claiming the Spit is "supposed to turn well but bleed E like mad" is simply not correct. It either turns better and has a better E retention (loses less speed in the turn) or it turns worse and has a worse E retention (loses more speed in the turn).  

-Fighters dont "out turn" each other (thats the laymans term we all use), they "out conserve energy" each other. The fighter with the poorer E retention, must reduce its G load 1st, to avoid losing more airspeed than its opponent.  Doing that however enables the other fighter to sustain a harder, higher G turn, and thus it is eventually defeated.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Krusty on September 17, 2005, 11:41:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
"The Spit9 (the one we have) handles far better, can turn infinitely tighter, can climb like the wind itself is lifting it into the air, is very user friendly, and dives/accelerates, as has been mentioned, too well."


Whether or not it's "overmodeled" as you state is not the point. It exists. Period. It is a flight model. Period. It just *is* modeled that way. Don't give a rat's bellybutton why, but it is. Like I said, the spit9 we have NOW, in AH2 NOW, beats the 190A8 we have NOW, in AH2 NOW. Don't go making me sound like I've got some anti-Spit agenda. I was talking balance in historical matchups in a game, not talking about realistic modeling. I'll limit my "realistic modeling" posting to threads regarding that topic, if I can help it :)
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Squire on September 18, 2005, 12:25:04 AM
Post by IK3, quotes by Knegel.

I never said didly about your post, so relax.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Kurfürst on September 18, 2005, 04:10:53 AM
Good post on turning, Squire.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Crumpp on September 18, 2005, 11:14:42 AM
Quote
Wings that "out turn" other wings are the ones that bleed energy less, not more.


Do not take this as discounting you post Squire.  It is not and you are correct.  This just adds too and helps with perspective.

True, but the difference in "wing efficiency"  is almost negliable given two similar designs from the same design period.

Quote
Badboy says:

Anyone reading this thread could be forgiven for wondering why the value of e should be so important. Why argue about the difference between something as small as 0.8 and 0.85 for example, when it only has a small influence on the overall drag coefficient. But before we get into this, let�s just apply a crude reality check to see if we have a realistic range for the fighters we are interested in? This diagram:

(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1127056488_oswald2.jpg)

taken from NACA 408 shows that Oswalds estimate agrees with the values that arise from approximate equations solely based on aspect ratio, for example, values between 0.85 and 1 for a cantilever monoplane. It is worth noting that he also quotes values between 0.95 and 1 just for a wing on its own, which is similar to approximate values produced earlier in this thread for a wing also.

Well, let�s put that in terms of air combat, and look at the difference that would make to an aircraft at the very bottom of Oswalds range 0.85, and one even lower, say 0.8 corresponding to a value at the high end of the range of average values Gripen posted from drag polars for various WWII fighters earlier in this thread.

Well, here is a diagram that shows the difference that these two values would have on the sustained turn rate of the same aircraft. Firstly, it would make very little difference at all to any other performance characteristics, the top speed for example being only 0.4mph different (and hardly distinguishable on the chart). You can see from the diagram that there is only 0.6 degrees per second difference (less than 3%) in the sustained turn rate, and no difference in the sustained turn radius, or any of the instantaneous values.

(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1127056447_eme3.jpg)

Alternatively, the pilot in the aircraft with an e = 0.8 could choose to match the turn rate of the less draggy counterpart, but to do so he would have to lose altitude in the turn at the rate of 260ft/min.

That;s a bout the size of it, not a decisive advantage by any means and because in a real engagement, that difference is small enough to be overwhelmed by other factors, such as pilot ability, fuel or other ordnance loads, or the significant differences between the dissimilar aircraft more likely to have been involved in real combat.



Most aeronautical engineers, even in the late 1930's were very aware of induced drag and ways to reduce it.

First you have to define your turn which is why Squire put the quotations on "out turn".  In this case I believe we are discussing steady state turns.  We also have turn rate and turn radius.  The most important to a fighter being minimum radius of turn.

Thrust is extremely important for turn performance:

(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1127054266_turnperformance.jpg)

(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1127054220_paequalspr.jpg)  

The aircraft that can pull a tighter angle of bank at a given speed will have the smaller turn radius.

This is why a heavier fighter with more power can equal or outturn a lighter fighter with less power to a point.

For example, the Spitfire Mk IVX gained considerable weight over the Mk IX yet matches the turn performance of the lighter Mk IX:

Quote
The tactical differences are caused chiefly by the fact that the Spitfire XIV has an engine of greater capacity and is the heavier aircraft (weighing 8,400 lbs. against 7,480 lbs. of Spitfire IX).


 
Quote
The turning circles of both aircraft are identical.


http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14afdu.html

IMHO, this characteristic is not reflected very well in the modeling of the Focke Wulf series.  The biggest example being the Dora which gained no weight over the FW-190A8. The FW-190A8 and the FW-190A5 are also effected by this.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Charge on September 18, 2005, 11:39:20 AM
Good post on turning Crumpp. :aok

-C+
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Squire on September 18, 2005, 08:32:08 PM
No prob, my understanding of it all is very limited and I freely admit it. I know more folks have a lot more to add to the topic, in a lot more detail.

I also wasnt picking on the 190, I was just being illustrative.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Crumpp on September 18, 2005, 08:34:41 PM
Sure, I did not think for an instant you were picking on the FW190.  

It is a fact though that the FM does not appear to take into account power gains in the design.

It is understandable though as you can find many sources which will claim the FW190A never gained any power in 4 years of wartime development.

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Angus on September 20, 2005, 10:27:00 AM
There was +25 boost around in 1943 or so - squadrons and squadrons. Yet definately fewer than others I think.
1.98 when and how much?
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Kev367th on September 20, 2005, 12:25:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
There was +25 boost around in 1943 or so - squadrons and squadrons. Yet definately fewer than others I think.
1.98 when and how much?


No Angus -
2 squadrons Spits converted to 150 grade earliest May 1944.
Wasn't unitl Nov/Dec 44 that 2TAF got clearance to convert all Spit sqns.
Conversion started in Jan 45.

1.98ata - definately couple of 109-G10 groups early Jan 45 for operational testing. Others are a matter of hotly disputed debates.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Kurfürst on September 20, 2005, 02:58:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
1.98 when and how much?


1.98ata was cleared sometimes around Dec/Jan44/45, but was recalled and operational testing was done by 'Gruppe 2/11' (Wing) in Jan/Feb. I don`t know where the G-10 coming from, probably from no-where.
1.98ata was finally cleared late in February 1945 as per butch, and there are OKL written orders from 20 March 1945 for 4 Gruppen (Wings) of JG 53 and JG 27 to increase boost to 1.98ata. ;)

As for +25, first tested in late `43, it was first used in `44 by two dozen(=2squad) RAF Spits  to chase V-1s, and as said, there was no real scale operational use until 1945, roughly at the time MW50 was being fitted to G-6s for very similiar performance, but on far larger scale. ;)
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Squire on September 20, 2005, 04:35:32 PM
Wouldnt they just retire old 109G-6s for 109G-14s. Why convert them?, or are you referring to a conversion program? Just curious.

As for the comparison, its apples and oranges anyways, RAF 2nd TAF was a component (albeit an important one), of the allied air forces, there for the job of providing cover to the British and Canadian Army Groups.  It was itself dwarfed by the USAAF combat power in the ETO, and the VVS on the Eastern Front, for that matter. It certainly was never fielded to "cover" the entire LW in the West, that was never its operational mandate.    

That being said 35 fighter squadrons was a sizable force.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Kurfürst on September 20, 2005, 04:47:02 PM
G-6s (to be precise the G-6/U2s that had a GM-1 tank already and could be easily converted) were both retrofitted to MW 50 (from around April or slightly before) and the many rebuilt G-6 airframes were converted into G-14s - production started in July 1944 and in short time replaced G-6s on the production line.

Basically the G-14 is a facelifted G-6, with all goodies introduced like Erla canopy and MW50 being serial standard and the most important, but also radio equipment was increased. Many of these were available as kits for the G-6 before, but now it was one standard instead a zillion variant of G-6. Or so was the idea. ;)
G-6 and G-14 relates a bit similiar to each other like the Spit 9 and 16 - almost the same thing.
Title: Affirmative action pls
Post by: Squire on September 20, 2005, 04:53:06 PM
Ahh ok, so they did convert some. Makes sense they would I guess.