Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: AKFokerFoder+ on September 14, 2005, 03:01:33 PM
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I have a question for the 109F4 drivers.
When you are low slow, and rolling in the mud with a bogey, what throttle setting do you use? I try to avoid low and slow, but every now and then I get a mean streak in me, and I dive down and get in a turn fight with a Yak, or a LA5/7. Or sometimes some dweeb in a LaLa thinks he can just run you down and you will fly nice and straight from his uber ride. Killing Spit Vs is fun too.
But low and slow too long and the cherry pickers (like me) boom ya LOL
I have been using about ¾ throttle, but I think a manifold pressure would be a better judge of where to set the throttle. Of course at times turning a turn fight, when I go vertical, I may even turn on WEP for a few seconds.
Flaps are a nice touch when speed is appropriate also.
Any tips? Like do you use hard left or hard right trim on your rudder? Etc.
It always amazes me how may people figure you can’t turn because you are in a 109 ;)
Thanks :)
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Well, not being an expert, take this with a grain of salt --
I never check the throttle. It's more of a sound/feel thing. Some folks turn the engine sound down in settings, but I don't. I like to hear the engine, as it gives me an approx of the throttle/rpm settings. Also keys me in to 'charger changes at alt while trying to retain cruise settings (set to one thing, climb, and your MAP might just start going up again as the gears change).
For 109F-4 and low level fights and scissors, I usually end up full throttle *most* of the time, with WEP some of the time, but I don't rely on WEP as much as some do. I try to fly without WEP as much as possible unless the ride is a total POS. What I'll do is chop throttle for turns and snap it back to full coming out of the turn or climbing. WEP in first stages of vertical, if I can hit the key in time, but then cut it off if I'm going over the top slow, as it can cause spins/odd angle stalls. I'll try more of a throttle chop and cross-control move to force overshoots in slow scissors, rather than just throttling back. If I'm trying to do a rolling scissors I'll leave it on full because I'm using my nose up to keep my speed down, and I need all the power I can get to get just a bit more alt than the enemy with each rolling scissor.
Like I said take it with a grain of salt. Make up yer own mind :)
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This is just an empirical thing, but in my case, using throttle-RPM linked controls seem to help me quite a bit, compared to the individual controls. What I mean by this is, if I advance the throttle to max, my RPM control also corresponds and maxes out. If I pull the throttle back to idle, so does the RPM.
Since most of the German planes flew with such a system in real life, I guess it won't hurt to manage the RPM and throttle the way it was supposed to.
For one thing, matching the cruise/military power settings with the E6B is a lot easier. Pyro has got the settings hooked up pretty good. When you link the controls, on the Fw190 for example, if you pull the manifold to "x.xx ata" as specifed for a certain power setting, the RPM also matches the numbers specified on the E6B exactly.
Also, while just a "feeling", when flying this way I find the 190s and 109s responding more smoothly throughout abrupt throttle changes during combat. When I flew with individual settings, and pulled the throttle back to go into maneuvers, the 109 seemed to be a bit more unstable. But after I've been using them linked, it seems to maneuver a bit better.
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any idea why? Torque, perhaps?
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Should be torque, interesting post Kweassa, will go and try it right away.
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Only problem with that, Kweassa, is you can only do it if you *only* fly the 109. :P
It might screw up cruise settings on other planes :)
If it worked on all planes the same I might do the same, but I haven't tinkered with it much.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
This is just an empirical thing, but in my case, using throttle-RPM linked controls seem to help me quite a bit, compared to the individual controls. .
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How do you link the controls?
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Simply, go to the controls setup menu, and select for the RPM the same axis you use for the throttle. IIRC, in my case, at firs the RPM was reverse to the throttle, so I had to check the "reverse axis" box.
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Linking RPM to Throttle
Kweassa, you got me wondering, so I set it up like you said and checked out the 109. While the 109f4 is spot on (and I suspect the other 109s as well), other aircraft are not.
Here's what I found:
In MANY planes (dare I say "most"?) the first reduced setting (i.e. not wep, not full throttle, the one below that) is almost spot on, but the second reduced setting (the one below that, most often max cruise) is usually off by a few hundred RPM (my method was to set MAP and check RPM). In most, the max cruise setting was way off. I checked one ride (it was either the p47N or the 190a5) the max cruise setting should have been at 2250rpm, but it was at 1850. Big difference.
In some planes it just doesn't work, as in the a6m5 mil power is (fuzzy memory alert!) 2700rpm and 40MAP, and cruise was 2700rpm and 35MAP (so that wouldn't work properly if you linked them). The max cruise was somewhat close but not exact.
Bombers aren't exact either.
Thing is, however, that it's close on lots, so if you fudge it and get near the fuel saver settings the E6B suggests, you should still save a lot of gas over "FFT". I'm currently going to use it for a while and see how it affects my flying. So far I'm interested in what it can do for me.
So basically if you want to link your RPM to throttle know that you may be sacrificing some fuel economy and performance when you are not at full throttle.
SECONDARY NOTE: You MUST (repeat MUST) map RPM1 through RPM4 all to the throttle, go into settings on the stick and invert the axis on each RPM listed. Doing RPM1 works fine for fighters, but if you launch a 2 engine fighter/bomber or 4 engine bomber you're boned.
While ShiftE selects all engines for 1 throttle, it doesn't seem to like using 1 rpm for all engines.
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I've got some vids of me and the JBs fighting. I tend to walk the throttle off and on through out the whole fight. It's never at one setting and I don't have a minimum setting that I don't go over either.
The F4 is actually pretty graceful at very low speeds. I don't have anywhere to host my vid or I'd post it here.
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Krusty, the numbers match for only the planes which had throttle-RPM interlinked system in real life. The numbers match for the 109s, 190s, and the Ta152 - which in real life, used only one lever to manage throttle, RPM, and mixture all together.
Other planes do not match well, since most of them planes had separate throttle/RPM settings each.
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I have mapped RPM 1 -4 with Throttle for some time (AH1)
Its advantage is that it sets good overall fuel conservation (in game) by reducing throttle and rpm proportionately without having to fiddle about
If you fly short range ac this is an advantage......
The primary dissadvantage is in actual combat if you wish to scrub e to tighten a manouver............
In AH fighters exhibit max drag at zero throttle and max rpm..... so the guy throttling back to brake turn or drop his nose over the top does so more effectievly if his rpm is NOT mapped to the throttle.
Also the deceleration on landing is less for co mapped rpm/throttle.
The "cheat" is to cut your engine leaving your throttle set to max revs. But even this does not work on ac where HT has modelled feathered props.
It would be neat if the rpm was always mapped when in "combat mode" but separately controllable in manual trim mode where it may be (as Krusty observes) set with even more fidelity.
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Kweassa, in AH2 the 190 and the 152 are not accurate. Only the 109. Check it out. The RPM don't match the manifold settings listed on the E6B.
Tilt: I didn't know that.. I was wondering why I was coming in so dang hot for landings the other night!!! Guess I'll have to start the landing process further out. God forbid I lose a rudder and can't use it as an airbrake! :)
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Hi,
"I have mapped RPM 1 -4 with Throttle..............."
I still dont know how to do this. Was trying to find the way to set this up, but did stumple somehow. :cry
Could someone please describe the exact procedure??
Thanks in advance!!
Knegel
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Sure! Go to setup > Controls > Joystick
There you choose "Select stick" or "select joystick". It lists the axis for all your stuff (I just have a MS Sidewinder). It's got a list of functions on the left side and a list of axis on the right side. Now by default some of the functions are mapped to "None". So select "RPM 1" from the list on the left and then in the right side highlight "Throttle" and then click "Apply". Then find each "RPM 2" "RPM 3" and "RPM 4" and assign them all to the same thing ("Throttle").
Once you're done with each, hit apply before going to the next (just to be safe). Then hit OKAY to exit that screen. Still under the "Joystick" menu is "Settings". This is the screen with the sliders for all of your joystick axis inputs. Click the drop down box and select RPM 1. Check off "Invert axis". Find each RPM listed and check the box on every one.
Hit apply/okay/whatever, hit Back > Back > Back >Back (however many times it takes) take a plane out and test it out.
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On topic is slats.
I can get the slats out at about 120mph in a turning situation (hard turn to left or right 3/4 trottle-not mapped yet). I assume trying to deploy slats would be a good idea?
I haven't tried to measure the difference in turn rate, but at least in theory I should turn tighter. It does seem to keep at least the LA5',7's and Yaks from hitting me. Spits seem to have a problem also. I doubt if a Zeke would have any problem, but you don't seem many Zekes.
Anyways what is the scoop on a notch of flaps and slats deployed? Would 2 notches of flaps be too agressive?
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I have never tried the linking, but I fly a fairly wide variety of stuff, so that may not work. However, wouldn't setting up two stick maps, and toggling between them, be a good way to compare, in flight, mid-fight even, the advantages and disadvantages of linking? I'm gonna have to try that.
Anyway, regarding throttle, I don't fly at a set throttle in anything. I'll have to fly the 109F more, I haven't flown it much in a few months.
Nice to see some of the odder birds getting so much attention.
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You don't WANT slats to come out. They just do. It means you're pulling too high an AOA, and are in a stall (but the slats prevent you from stalling, temporarily). If you're popping slats you you might be too agressive in the 109.
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Being aggressive is the name of the game. You can be timid to a certain extent and at certain times but you have to learn to fly the aircraft to it's limits. The only way to do this is get down and dirty and learn from your mistakes. The slats are there for a reason and they can and will help you if you know how to fly the aircraft to the extreme low end.
I will TnB with virtually any aircraft I come up against. It doesn't matter if I'm flying the Mustang or the 109F4. It's a learning experience and it keeps me on my toes. I learn to do very radical maneuvers and all the while stay in control of the aircraft. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose.
If your worried about your score then don't bother asking how to fly the aircraft to it's limits.
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Approaching the "limit" comes with a certain amount of risk.
If we can say that the general purposes of combat maneuvering is in making one win the fight, then under principles of efficiency, "flying to the limit" is not always synonimous with "flyinging in a way you can win".
Since AH is a game, it's a matter of preference in most occasions, and none can really say one type of flying attitude is better than the other. However, in regards to combat efficiency, taking an unnecessary risk is not always so 'brave', but rather 'foolish'.
I see people brag all the time about how they can outturn or outtmaneuver X plane with their inferior Y plane.. but when one actually sees how they really fight - it's basically a rigged match.
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Kweassa just upping an aircraft is taking a risk. Flying into enemy territory is taking a risk.
No one is saying you have to fly that way all the time. You do have to know how to handle your aircraft at that limit if you want to survive at times, especially in the MA. What you call flying foolishly can and will save your arse when the time comes. Tell Leviathn that flying his Spit V to the edge and beating virtually anything that comes into his path is foolish. He could fly timidly and take virtually no risks if he'd like to but his fights would be as boring as my fight with QQSaint and MrLima last night.
There is no such thing as a "rigged" fight. Either your opponent knows how to fly their aircraft or they don't. If your considering one persons skill level compared to another is a "rigged" fight then maybe all the top dogs should only be allowed to fly the most inferior planes. Maybe they should also not be allowed to have enemy icons or distance indications.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Sure! Go to setup > Controls > Joystick
There you choose "Select stick" or "select joystick". It lists the axis for all your stuff (I just have a MS Sidewinder). It's got a list of functions on the left side and a list of axis on the right side. Now by default some of the functions are mapped to "None". So select "RPM 1" from the list on the left and then in the right side highlight "Throttle" and then click "Apply". Then find each "RPM 2" "RPM 3" and "RPM 4" and assign them all to the same thing ("Throttle").
Once you're done with each, hit apply before going to the next (just to be safe). Then hit OKAY to exit that screen. Still under the "Joystick" menu is "Settings". This is the screen with the sliders for all of your joystick axis inputs. Click the drop down box and select RPM 1. Check off "Invert axis". Find each RPM listed and check the box on every one.
Hit apply/okay/whatever, hit Back > Back > Back >Back (however many times it takes) take a plane out and test it out.
Thanks again!
I made several test, but wasnt able to find this setup usefull, except while cooling the engine in a smooth dive with reduced power, cause the reduced rpm seems to reduce the propeller related drag, but this reduced drag, while reducing power + rpm, dont help to slow down the plane, if i want this.
We can see this different already if we wanna land a plane with destroyed engine, in this moment the game seems to set the proppitch to gliderposition(most smal rpm), this reduce the drag, so the propeller dont work as 'break' anymore and we fast overshoot the runway.
Only my opinion to this!
Greetings, Knegel
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I'd rather have a joystick with 2 throttles (one for manifold, one for RPM), but I don't have one. I think I will keep using linked RPM for now, but then once I've tested it for a while I think I will un-link them.
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Tested it for a couple of sorties while flying the G10, didn't like it at all. Cutting throttle to stay behind am enemy plane in low speed rolling scissors or normal scissors was made difficult, almost overshot him even though I had full rudder to brake with.
Also landings were slower, I almost overshot the ranway even with full rudder.
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same here
However it's good to know for when you need low throttle but also low drag settings too, like when you're diving on a fast plane and don't want to compress, but don't want to slow down either, or when you're out of gas and/or have a dead engine and have to glide home.
I think I'll go back to manual RPM, but I do wish I had a separate throttle to map them to.
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Hi,
you can map two buttons for RPM, this work smooth like a throttle!
I have it like that and now my FW190A8 have a faster highspeed dive(with reduced rpm). :)
Greetings, Knegel
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Knegel, that's a good point, but I don't have many buttons. I only have 9 total (4 on stick, 5 on stick base) and these are mapped to:
1: Fire1
2: Fire2
3: Select Sec Fire
4: Check 6 (target in gunsight) -- very helpful
(on base, by throttle)
A: Flaps up
B: Flaps down
C: look up (is vital to using hat for looking around, I can't live without this one)
D: Combat trim (for on/off instant toggle)
UNNAMED KEY: zoom
I've got no room to map RPM to my stick :(
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Tested it for a couple of sorties while flying the G10, didn't like it at all. Cutting throttle to stay behind am enemy plane in low speed rolling scissors or normal scissors was made difficult, almost overshot him even though I had full rudder to brake with.
Also landings were slower, I almost overshot the ranway even with full rudder.
Yup, if you link them, you'll lose the drag that higher rpm's give you that can make the difference in you overshooting or not... or cause one if that's the reason you are chopping.
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Is there any way to toggle RPM all the way off/on (high/low) with one key?
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Originally posted by Krusty
Knegel, that's a good point, but I don't have many buttons. I only have 9 total (4 on stick, 5 on stick base) and these are mapped to:
1: Fire1
2: Fire2
3: Select Sec Fire
4: Check 6 (target in gunsight) -- very helpful
(on base, by throttle)
A: Flaps up
B: Flaps down
C: look up (is vital to using hat for looking around, I can't live without this one)
D: Combat trim (for on/off instant toggle)
UNNAMED KEY: zoom
I've got no room to map RPM to my stick :(
Hi,
simply use the keyboard! Since changed rpm settings are (imho) only usefull while smoth diving to keep speed with reduced power and while landing without fuel to adjust the drag, you dont need the buttons very close.
While playing i have my keyboard right in fromt of my stick, between the screen and the stick. The stickbase is located close to the num-block and the arrowkeys.
In this way i can reach this buttons without to leave the throttle, so the Num-block, the arrowkeys and the 6-button-block(pageup/down etc) work same like my buttons on the stickbase.
Thats 27 more, easy reachable, buttons.
Many years i had a Logitec Wingman extreme3d with only 2 buttons on the stickbase, with my setup this wasnt a handycap!
Greetings, Knegel
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I use a keyboard as well, but I need to shift my attention to it, look at it, move my hand to it, hit the RPM keys while looking at my RPM gague on the screen, and then shift my attention back to whatever I was doing. It's not too efficient, so I don't bother with RPM at times (when I really ought to, I guess).
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If I pull the throttle back to idle, so does the RPM.
sounds like a bad idea.
The only reason to reduce throttle from 100% in a fight is to slow down. If you link your RPM to the trottle, you lower your drag when pulling it back - the opposite of what you want.
Bozon
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Just a small advice about playing with RPM:
Basically, you want max RPM as long as your are at or below your max level speed for your current alt. If you are well faster than your max speed for your current alt, what you want is to reduce drag as much as possible to slowdown the decceleration.
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Originally posted by MANDO
Basically, you want max RPM as long as your are at or below your max level speed for your current alt. If you are well faster than your max speed for your current alt, what you want is to reduce drag as much as possible to slowdown the decceleration.
This would mean that when diving I would accelerate more (once I had passed level max) if I reduced rpm?..............
regardless of loss of boost?
Hmm gaining e this way could be advantagous.......... I'll try that tonight!
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Yes Tilt it would. While the prop in a prop planes gives the planes it's thrust (pull is forward) it also acts like a brake, specially when going at higher speeds.
I remember a few old guys on my flying club (flying Gliders) discussing this, they said that a prop plane has the prop to slow it down at high speed while us glider pilots have to watch out not to overspeed because we accelerate so fast in a dive due to lack of anything that slows us down.
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Originally posted by Tilt
This would mean that when diving I would accelerate more (once I had passed level max) if I reduced rpm?
No exactly.
When you exceed your max level speed for your current alt you dont want to reduce rpm to minimum (when you dive, you have your engine power + G component - drag). Lets say that when you reach your "maximum controllable" speed in a dive, you want to reduce your RPM to the minimum to keep that speed as long as possible (this is particulary useful when G component is not helping your dive, that is, when you level after the dive). As your plane deccelerates, you keep increasing your RPM slowly, when you reach your maximum level speed for that alt, you should have your RPM set to the maximum.
All this depends on the plane type (drag curve and power) so it is difficult to figure out an accurate optimum general "rpm curve above max level speed" per plane.
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The "secret" of outaccelerating lalas in dives is not a "secret" anymore :cry ;)
Hope no lala drivers are following this thread ...
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Just fly the 109F like a Spitty.
It basically performs very much like a Spit IX.
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my bellybutton it does :P
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Uhm, problem with reducing RPM at high speed is that it can't be reduced. The faster you go the less you can reduce it. Even if you cut throttle all together in a 500mph dive the RPM stays peaked (actually well above max RPM normally).
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500 mph is (or should be) well above maximum controlable speed for 109F.
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Wilbus, what you are doing is to reduce RPM caused by your engine. The resulting RPM will be mostly caused by your air speed and the fast air should move your propellor in the optimum (dragwise) way (doesnt matter the final resulting RPM as long as you induce minimum interference with the air flow).
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uhmmmm. Rgr :)
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Originally posted by MANDO
The "secret" of outaccelerating lalas in dives is not a "secret" anymore :cry ;)
Hope no lala drivers are following this thread ...
Lala driver here..........
I unlinked my rpm last night and started using it (in an La7) to see if I could further enhance dive acceleration above normal level speed.
There is a short band of control approx between 360 and 400 where rpm is still adjustable. At higher speeds the prop rotates at full revs regardless.
I assume that indicated boost is a function of applied thrust so dropping revs in a dive with a resultant boost drop seemed counter productive. If I was in a WEP dive my default disabled my rpm control until WEP was off.
For the La7 this meant it was of little benefit below 8K unless WEP was off.
Unless AH models prop pitch into the prop drag equation.
I do not know if prop drag (in AH) is a function of rpm alone or a combination of rpm and prop pitch. I assume it should be the latter.
If this were the case then reducing the set engine speed (above 400) should tend to feather the prop even tho max rpm is maintained. Hence reducing prop drag.
Combat "feel" alone was insufficient to determine this.
However I started to use the rpm rotary as a sort of E loss adjuster in combat....wierd stuff seemed to occur which needs more checking. On one occasion in an in plain turn competition with another La7 I simply left throttle at full and fettled thrust with the rpm control..........my turn rate "seemed" to increase exponentially without heavy loss of air speed. It may only be that rpm gave me better fidelity of control in the top % band of thrust and I was able to set best corning speed more accurately.
But there is no doubt that I have been missing the prop drag for braking manouvers..........particular ly in dive chasing an oppenent where I would normally over shoot.
Re the Bf109.
Actually the 109G was superior to the La7 in dive. I have copies of tests that record that once initial acceleration had been passed the 109 (G4 in this case) did indeed out dive the La7.
AH does not seem to model this.
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Originally posted by Angus
Just fly the 109F like a Spitty.
It basically performs very much like a Spit IX.
Yeh, sure :huh
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Well, while it doesn't perform all that different then a spit 9 it has some difefrences.
The stall is always closer in the 109 F4, it's never as friednly to fly as the spit it. The spit is a plane you can slap around and treat almost as you wish and it will just say "Thank you" to you. The 109 let's you know if you do something wrong and let's you know quite fast.
However the F4 does have a very nice turnrate and low speed ability, while the Spit 9 is still better at this the F4 can keep up for a while and with the right pilot beat most spit 9's in the MA.
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Are there only bad SpitIX drivers?? :confused:
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Nope Knegel but the 109 F4 is much more maneuverable then other 109's.