Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Silat on September 15, 2005, 06:36:51 PM
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I find I agree with much of this editorial.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9342324/site/newsweek/print/1/displaymode/1098/
"Katrina has reminded us that Christian morality should be about responding to the wretched and loving the unlovable—not about other people’s sex lives.
Sept. 14, 2005 - There was a great piece in Harper's last month, "The Christian Paradox: How a Faithful Nation Gets Jesus Wrong'' by Bill McKibben, about how three out of four Americans believe the Bible teaches this: "God helps those who help themselves.'' The Gospel according to Mark? Luke? Actually, it was Ben Franklin who came up with these words to live by.
"The thing is,'' McKibben writes, "not only is Franklin's wisdom not biblical; it's counterbiblical. Few ideas could be further from the gospel message, with its radical summons to love of neighbor. On this essential matter, most Americans—most American Christians—are simply wrong, as if 75 percent of American scientists believed that Newton proved gravity causes apples to fly up.''
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Aside from a wry smile, I decline to comment further.
;)
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LOL, Franklin's message was not even close to "counterbiblical". What a crock of crap.
Franklin's intent was pretty clear, even to the very dimwitted. His point was that God helps those who make an effort on their own behalf. Meaning God and those who follow him, will help anyone who is doing what they can to help themselves, but will not help those who will not help themselves or will not be helped.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Aside from a wry smile, I decline to comment further.
;)
Hmmm yup. Same.
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ref: The story of the servants and the talents(?). The only one out of the three who got anything back (including praise from his master) was the one who took action ;) "Helps those who help themselves".
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Originally posted by Silat
I find I agree with much of this editorial.
this: "God helps those who help themselves.'' The Gospel according to Mark? Luke? Actually, it was Ben Franklin who came up with these words to live by.
some folks are so ignorant to the bible because the havnt cracked its pages ever.
What the bible does say along those lines is
'if a man doesnt work he ought not eat.
so yeah god will help you if you help yourself
and in america god will help you even if you never worked a day in your life(welfare)
I think if your able to work and you wont you shouldnt be allowed to eat.
Now tell me"cleanliness is next to godliness" where can you find that lil goody?
obtw LO, Lew.
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this could come in handy..
religious discussion enhancement device (http://www.militarykit.com/images/products_full/camping_folding_entrenching_tool_open.jpg)
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Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and ye shall be Shaved.
:aok
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Wow this is a troll if I ever seen one.
But just to feed silat so he doesnt cry himself to sleep tonight. The churches down south did more to help the victoms of the storm than FEMA or the state/city did in the first few days.
I think what the article is missing is this:
"give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life"
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Yeah, sounds nice, but nobody is teaching anybody how to fish.
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Originally posted by Nash
Yeah, sounds nice, but nobody is teaching anybody how to fish.
You know why? Every time somone sudjests such a program the "po folk" get scared from ad campaigns that the somone is taking away their wellfare.
When I was unemployed in Texas for 3 months I HAD to get on Un-employment to help feed my family. It was a bad situation all around but I was willing to take any kind of job that presented itself. The Texas Workforce Commision basically MADE me look for a job and go to interviews and such in order to recieve un-employment.
In other areas I really have to disagree with you. There are a ton of Govt funded programs and grants to help people learn new skills and get better educated.
Everything else is just votes and politics.
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Originally posted by Nash
Yeah, sounds nice, but nobody is teaching anybody how to fish.
I figgered Silat was the "Trolling Coordinator" in NO?
Karaya
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
When I was unemployed in Texas for 3 months I HAD to get on Un-employment to help feed my family. It was a bad situation all around....
Well.... I'm certainly, something, to hear that you survived your moment of crisis by suckling at the government's tit.
How did that feel? Suckling at the tax payer's collective tit, that is?
Perhaps a better question would be: What if not for the government's tit? Bowls of Alpo for the kids?
See - this is what Government is about. The only reason you pay these bastards is to make your commute easier, to give you a leg up when you need it, and to make regular working folks not have to look at your sorry bellybutton when you're down on your luck. And to ease the pain that children feel when you screw up.
Glad you made it out. Don't bite the hand that fed you.
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Hmmm...I know how to fish, but I don't like to eat them. Is that why I don't believe in Jebus? ;)
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Never was a big SA supporter but I will probably become one.
These guys don't talk about it... they do it.
Major Darryl Kingsbury, incident commander for The Salvation Army’s relief efforts in the three states of Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi says that there are now 33 Salvation Army mobile feeding units and seven Southern Baptist feeding kitchens now serving on the Gulf Coast.
“As more people return to the area or are now just finding our canteens, we expect that our feeding operations in Gulf Coast will reach 100,000 meals a day in the Long Beach area and an additional 50,000 meals in the Biloxi area.” said Kingsbury.
And that's not all they're doing.
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Originally posted by Nash
Well.... I'm certainly, something, to hear that you survived your moment of crisis by suckling at the government's tit.
How did that feel? Suckling at the tax payer's collective tit, that is?
Perhaps a better question would be: What if not for the government's tit? Bowls of Alpo for the kids?
See - this is what Government is about. The only reason you pay these bastards is to make your commute easier, to give you a leg up when you need it, and to make regular working folks not have to look at your sorry bellybutton when you're down on your luck. And to ease the pain that children feel when you screw up.
Glad you made it out. Don't bite the hand that fed you.
would you be saying the same thing to me if I was a poor black man in New Orleans?
The difference is that my situation was temporary because the rules do not permit otherwise. You HAVE to meet with a counsler once a week and he makes sure you are looking for employment.
I really don't get the point you are trying to make here maybe you shouldnt beat around the bush so much about it.
Wellfare in itself is a necesary evil, but when you get familys on welfare they stay welfare. I don't know why believe me.
I got off active duty after being recalled and found my job disolved during my absence. I used the programs available to help me find work to support myself and family untill I could get back on active duty.
I don't spite anyone for being on assistance I spit people for making a career out of it. There are plenty of programs available to help you get a leg up in life if you just want to make the effort to use them.
PS $205 a week is hardly suckling
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Good for you GS, and Toad - true: SA rocks.
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Originally posted by SOB
Hmmm...I know how to fish, but I don't like to eat them.
somehow I find that hard to believe. :D
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Wow this is a troll if I ever seen one.
But just to feed silat so he doesnt cry himself to sleep tonight. The churches down south did more to help the victoms of the storm than FEMA or the state/city did in the first few days.
I think what the article is missing is this:
"give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life"
Guns I never cry myself to sleep. And no it wasnt a troll. But I sure do love the Christian love that comes pouring out of you all in here.
Ive cracked the book and Jesus's main message is that you help those less fortunate than yourself.
YOu might actually check the statistics as to how much fraud is in the welfare system before you use the hard right talking points that have you believing the poor choose to be poor.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
some folks are so ignorant to the bible because the havnt cracked its pages ever.
What the bible does say along those lines is
'if a man doesnt work he ought not eat.
so yeah god will help you if you help yourself
and in america god will help you even if you never worked a day in your life(welfare)
I think if your able to work and you wont you shouldnt be allowed to eat.
Now tell me"cleanliness is next to godliness" where can you find that lil goody?
obtw LO, Lew.
Please point to the scripture that says, "God helps those who help themselves."
...and while you're at it, find "Cleanliness is next to godliness."
GOOD LUCK.
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I've fought to major battles with the man upstairs in my life. First was when I was 22 and my father died of cancer at the age of 45, just before the birth of his first grandchild, my son Andrew.
Second is going on right now as I'm now 45 and I just lost my son Andrew at the age of 21 and my daughter Christina, age 15 in a car accident two weeks ago.
Both times I wanted to find something in my faith to explain it somehow. And I keep coming back to the same thing. It was how I was raised, and how I raised my kids.
Below is a scan from the program from my kids funeral a little over two weeks ago. It contains the basis for my faith and how I was taught to live my life and how I tried to teach my kids.
It's not judgemental, it doesn't promise me a cookie, it puts it all on me. "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
Tough to argue with it. No promises I'll get thanked for it. No promises I won't get burned on occasion by people taking advantage of it.
But something strange about it that's been driven home in the last couple weeks as we grieve for the loss of our children. Kindness gets repaid in kindness. People from all over have rallied to our side, not asking for anything, not demanding we do something first before they offer help. They're just being kind because that's the type of people they are.
Funny how that works. Kinda wish we'd all practice that a bit more. That Good Samaritan stuff really works
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1126856877_samaritan.jpg)
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Damn Dan, I hadn't heard. Words fail me, my heart goes out to you and your family, we will pray for you.
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"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in.
I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.
Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."
To all of you who consider yourself Christian I ask. When was the last time you took a bum off the street. Fed him, clothed him, sheltered him?
There are many so called "Christians" today who are really only christian for one hour on sunday.
Then there are many who do not say a word, nor claim to be christian. Yet who quietly live their lives helping others at every chance. Living up to the ideal that so many hold forth, yet fail so miserably at.
Yes a case can be made for helping oneself. Yet in each persons life there are going to be times when what you can do to help yourself is not enough.
Each man does have a limit.
By the same token anyone who would sit around in the midst of disaster waiting for someone to help them, deserves what they get.
Last, if anyone really desires, I will gladly teach him to fish. Due to lack of $ I'm afraid they'll have to come to me however. :)
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oh great so this is were the "non-christians" tell the conservative christians on this board how much they don't even know they're own religion and how they should do more to help.
And they call US hypocrits?
Silat what have you done? I'm not going to brag about what I've done to help out because I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else. All I'm going to say is I do ALOT of voluteer work.
I don't think the poor want to be poor I think the system is a trap. Once they are on state assistance and living in govt housing it's hard to do anything else with yourself.
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An opinionated secular political perspective.
The Republicans have no vested political motivation to help the poor who traditionally vote Democrat. A business case could be made for potentially greater prosperity with real solutions to poverty, but they would require tremendous effort, disruption, short-term expense, fierce political fighting and may not ultimately provide the appropriate ROI if the resolve fails at some point (or if the specific mechanisms and assumptions get mired in political pork, bureaucracy or just look good on think tank paper but fail when faced with the reality on the ground). Plus, while more empowered consumers would be desirable, their potential new jobs can still (for the most part) be best performed (from a cost perspective) by the super poor working in tightly controlled, low wage places like China. Not enough motivation to overcome inertia.
The Democrats rely on the status quo to maintain their voter base. A balancing act between doing just enough and not too much to keep their support. The same with today's uninspiring crop of minority "leader" figureheads. Absolutely no motivation here because labor has become too weak of a base for them to assume these “new workers” would transition into organized labor.
The poor. If you are born into poverty, and that is all you know, and you get enough just to get by, and there are no really viable options (at least that you see from your perspective) and you are living in the day... then no driving motivation among many. This applies to both rural whites and inner city minorities. I know a touch of this from some limited personal experience. I worked as a freelancer for a couple of years, and eventually things got really slow. But my condo was paid off and I had virtually no expenses (and no real materialism for that BMW I was missing out on) and it was really easy to coast for a while instead of trying to do something about it. And I came from an environment that was middle class, full of opportunities and with plenty of direct, productive role models in my life. We also have some poverty in my extended family. Some work successfully to rise above it and others look at how they can get on disability and ride the system.
The middle and upperclasses. No personal motivations for change just yet. Poverty is isolated from the middle and upper classes in most areas to the degree that you can ignore it. Some change may involve “decentralizing” poverty so NIMBY.
Therefore, hard to see a solution unless things turn really ugly on a national scale at some point in the future, IMO.
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
A business case could be made for potentially greater prosperity with real solutions to poverty,
I personally do not beleive that the modern definition of poverty can be "solved". I say modern definition because that is the term we see bandied about when they claim that the number of folks living below 'the poverty level" is increasing. But the vast majority of the folk "living in poverty conditions" in the US have central air conditioning, more than one color TV, a microwave, a cell phone, and about half of them have a car and own their single family home outright.
The term poverty gets abused to suit one's political agenda far too much. You want to see poverty travel to a third world nation, where the upper middle-class homes are the ones with cinder-block walls. Did anyone notice how well fed those poor refugees from Katrina are?
There is VERY little true poverty in this country IMO, I think the war on poverty is over, we should declare victory and cancell the "war" which has devolved into little more than a class-hatred thing designed to keep both parties in power.
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Originally posted by Edbert
There is VERY little true poverty in this country IMO, I think the war on poverty is over, we should declare victory and cancell the "war" which has devolved into little more than a class-hatred thing designed to keep both parties in power.
watch out. Some liberal is going to come in here and brand you a racist since the majority of poverty has a black face.
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I've always liked the salvation army.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
oh great so this is were the "non-christians" tell the conservative christians on this board how much they don't even know they're own religion and how they should do more to help.
And they call US hypocrits?
Silat what have you done? I'm not going to brag about what I've done to help out because I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else. All I'm going to say is I do ALOT of voluteer work.
I don't think the poor want to be poor I think the system is a trap. Once they are on state assistance and living in govt housing it's hard to do anything else with yourself.
You make it sound so simple. Funny how you try to divide us between Christian and Non-Christian. How'd you make the distinction? Which category did I get put in?
Thought it interesting in the Good Samritan story how Christ mentions the two religious men who walk away from the man in need. Wonder who he's referring to?
SO you brought it up and then try and duck it saying you don't have to justify your actions? LOL
Well I've always figured that actions speak louder then the words. As one of those folks who has worked in the system for the last 20 years, I find your comments on it interesting too.
I've worked with abused, neglected, underprivilaged, etc Teenagers for the last 20 years. Ironically, considering we're referring to New Orleans a bit, my first two years of combat time in the system were spent as a house parent in a runaway shelter just outside the French Quarter in New Orleans. That was 24/7 responsibility. My wife and I responsible for what went on, dealing with crisis phone, walk in stuff along with the 18 kids in the shelter. Dealt with the project kids a lot. IT was a real eye opener for a kid from the burbs in Minnesota to see how people were living in those projects.
One thing you find out in a hurry is regardless of the conditions a kid is living in, and the New Orleans projects were nasty, kids will go back to it, because that's all they know and that's where their home is. It isn't so simple as if they just work hard enough they can rise above it. They need to be shown a better way of doing it. And that takes money, time and people.
But of course we've consistantly in the 20 years I've been doing this, watched as the money for programs gets smaller and smaller. Numerous programs close and the resources are just not there so we don't get to the kids who have a chance.
But of course we happily build more jails to house them once they've become adults.
It's real easy to preach from the sidelines, and hope God or someone else does the work.
I've always figured my actions will speak louder then my words and that I have a responsibilty to my neighbor.
You did kinda leap right over my first reply and focus on old Silat too.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Damn Dan, I hadn't heard. Words fail me, my heart goes out to you and your family, we will pray for you.
Thanks Savage. Needless to say it's been kinda rough around here the last few weeks. AH and my old 38G are my escape tool right now. I can lose myself in it for a bit each night.
Waking up every morning and realizing it wasn't just a nightmare and two of my kids aren't ever coming home hurts beyond anything I could ever have imagined.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
You make it sound so simple. Funny how you try to divide us between Christian and Non-Christian. How'd you make the distinction? Which category did I get put in?
Thought it interesting in the Good Samritan story how Christ mentions the two religious men who walk away from the man in need. Wonder who he's referring to?
SO you brought it up and then try and duck it saying you don't have to justify your actions? LOL
Well I've always figured that actions speak louder then the words. As one of those folks who has worked in the system for the last 20 years, I find your comments on it interesting too.
I've worked with abused, neglected, underprivilaged, etc Teenagers for the last 20 years. Ironically, considering we're referring to New Orleans a bit, my first two years of combat time in the system were spent as a house parent in a runaway shelter just outside the French Quarter in New Orleans. That was 24/7 responsibility. My wife and I responsible for what went on, dealing with crisis phone, walk in stuff along with the 18 kids in the shelter. Dealt with the project kids a lot. IT was a real eye opener for a kid from the burbs in Minnesota to see how people were living in those projects.
One thing you find out in a hurry is regardless of the conditions a kid is living in, and the New Orleans projects were nasty, kids will go back to it, because that's all they know and that's where their home is. It isn't so simple as if they just work hard enough they can rise above it. They need to be shown a better way of doing it. And that takes money, time and people.
But of course we've consistantly in the 20 years I've been doing this, watched as the money for programs gets smaller and smaller. Numerous programs close and the resources are just not there so we don't get to the kids who have a chance.
But of course we happily build more jails to house them once they've become adults.
It's real easy to preach from the sidelines, and hope God or someone else does the work.
I've always figured my actions will speak louder then my words and that I have a responsibilty to my neighbor.
You did kinda leap right over my first reply and focus on old Silat too.
I honestly don't know what you are saying. If you look at the history of Silat's among other's posts he loves to pick and choose were people who say they are christians are in fact bad people and then he blames the entire religion.
He then procedes to tell me I need to do more and help people......well I HAVE but I don't feel the need to explain anything to him.
This whole notion of the church basically scaldingt he poor because they are poor is baseless to begin with. Considering many churches in the area have opened up their doors and in many cases been the "first responders" to victims.
So what this all boils down to is that it is silat that's against the politics of the republican party and not the religion itself.
I've allways helped those less fortunate than myself. But I preferr to help people help themselves anyday. That doesn't mean I'm not helping them.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I honestly don't know what you are saying. If you look at the history of Silat's among other's posts he loves to pick and choose were people who say they are christians are in fact bad people and then he blames the entire religion.
He then procedes to tell me I need to do more and help people......well I HAVE but I don't feel the need to explain anything to him.
This whole notion of the church basically scaldingt he poor because they are poor is baseless to begin with. Considering many churches in the area have opened up their doors and in many cases been the "first responders" to victims.
So what this all boils down to is that it is silat that's against the politics of the republican party and not the religion itself.
I've allways helped those less fortunate than myself. But I preferr to help people help themselves anyday. That doesn't mean I'm not helping them.
It seemed clear from the article Silat posted that his reference was to the radicalized Christian right which has become such a player in Republican politics. This is the bunch that is focused on dictating morality and ramming God down our throats.
These are the folks who find the bible passage that in their eyes supports their political beliefs or morals and then try and impose it on others.
My first reply was in response to this. Christ's talking about loving thy neighbor as thyself, is what it's all about. In his story of the Good Samaritan he references organized religion in the two religious men who walk away. They've lost sight of what's important. The Samaritan hadn't. He didn't check the guys religious background, sexuality, marital status, color, etc. He saw someone in trouble and he helped.
I'm sure that you do what you can to help. It's not a shot at you. The Christian right has lost sight of what's important in their zeal to make us all look and act the same.
It isn't how loud you sqwak, or how loud you pray, it's how you live your life and how you treat the people around you.
As for Silat. I've known Lew for quite a while now first through Airwarrior and then AH. He's a good Dad to his kids, and has become a good friend. Funny how I've never met him in person yet. But when it hit the fan with my kids, Lew was one of the first to make contact and offer whatever help he could.
He seems to have his priorities straight in terms of how he treats people around him from what I can see.
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I'd also ask that folks keep in mind the difference from political activists and reality. Just like the maneuvers of the Al Sharptons and Ted Kennedys of the democratic party have very little to do with the voter down my street, the political movers in the "religious right" tend to put a lot more emphasis on the politics and fundraising than the expression of faith. Wasnt it Ralph Reed who went from "religious" activist to republican lobbyist without missing a beat?
As a firmly believing christian, these guys (with the occasional Phyllis Schafley thrown in) either nauseate me or bask in the light of irrelevance, with as much impact on me politically as Al Sharpton has on my democratic friends. The chief difference being, that my Democratic-voting neighbor isnt continually asked to defend or justify Sharpton, the way Christians are held responsible for every politico wearing a cross...
And BTW, do you guys realize that the Salvation Army is not a christian relief organization?
It's a church denomination. The SA has its own congregations, ministers, and churches. It was founded in England in the same era as the Boy Scouts; both take military structure and clothing because those were culturally attractive during the time. They felt the cultutral egotism and elitism of the Victorian era contradicted the teachings of Jesus, and they went to the streets to reach the needy and suffering. The Salvation Army's mission statement is simple: "Hearts to God, and Hands to Man."
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Originally posted by Simaril
As a firmly believing christian, these guys (with the occasional Phyllis Schafley thrown in) either nauseate me or bask in the light of irrelevance, with as much impact on me politically as Al Sharpton has on my democratic friends. The chief difference being, that my Democratic-voting neighbor isnt continually asked to defend or justify Sharpton, the way Christians are held responsible for every politico wearing a cross...
The fact that folks feel compelled to qualify that they are Christians speaks volumes about what you refer to however.
When a person's faith gets invoked in their politics it gets dangerous.
I keep thinking about Christ throwing the money changers etc out of the Temple. The point being, power and self serving aims, is not what Christianity or faith is about.
Most folks out there realize that their faith is their own and that it shouldn't be used as a hammer on someone.
But it's delicate ground, and it can be used to scare people too. How do you challenge a person holding a bible up in front of themselves. You must not believe in God if you do that...right? :)
Religion is a powerful weapon. Doing things as it's "God's will" is tough to take on too.
Once again, based on my own battle right now placing God in the context of the death of my 2 kids, makes it tough to buy that he has anything to do with it. To place him in an active role, then puts him in the position of having chosen to kill my kids. No active loving God would have done that.
So man invoking God's name and will to forward his own man serving plan, doesn't sit real well with me.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
The fact that folks feel compelled to qualify that they are Christians speaks volumes about what you refer to however....
snip
Do you mean the politicians qualifying themselves, or the christians?
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Originally posted by Simaril
Do you mean the politicians qualifying themselves, or the christians?
Anyone, but in particular those in politics.
It sounds like a qualifier then, as if the person is afraid that their words won't have as much meaning without that preface of "as a Christian".
Someone comfortable in thier faith and in themselves doesn't need to wear it on their sleeve.
I always remember the kids in my youth group at church growing up. Those that prayed the loudest and went overboard on it, always tended to be the ones that were screwing up all week and could care less about those around them It was as if they were trying to cover for themselves.
A person's actions tend to speak louder then their words in my opinion
Does it apply to absolutely everyone? Of course not, but I trust you get my point.
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Originally posted by Nash
Well.... I'm certainly, something, to hear that you survived your moment of crisis by suckling at the government's tit.
How did that feel? Suckling at the tax payer's collective tit, that is?
Hey Nash, just so you understand. Unemployment is INSURANCE!
That's why they call it UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE! You know who pays for this? Your employer. Every time you get a paycheck your employer pays Federal and State Unemployement Insurance. It is a mandated benefit you get from having a job, it is not a handout.
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All that you know about God was written by men.
Also, men determined what you are allowed to read about God. There is much written about God and Jesus that is not published for the masses to consume.
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Silat,
I'll be happy to discuss this and any other matter over a casual drink. May I suggest a bottle of 1945 Chateau Lafites Baron Rothschild? If not, we could make do with a 1947 Chateau Petrus...
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
All that you know about God was written by men.
I don't know about that. I was hiking one day in upstate New York when I stepped into a hole. Clearing away some debris, I found that I had broken though the top of an old wooden box buried there in the forest.
Inside I found on several golden tablets the original text of the Book of Mormon, purportedly written by God and delivered to Joseph Smith for transcription by the archangel Gabrial.
I took the tablets and put them in the trunk of my '71 Malibu and drove back to town. Once back in town I sat down to recover from the days activities with some beer and some TV, and forgot all about those tablets.
They spent about three months in the trunk before I sold the car for parts to the local wrecking yard, and unfortunately the car was crushed and recycled with the religious artifacts still in the trunk.
But I swear I saw 'em... at least that's what I tell my Mormon friends.
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Glad you made it out. Don't bite the hand that fed you.
If you wuz in range and said that to me Nash, I'da beyatch slapped yah.
Unemployment benefits are "insurance". Not 'Tax' dollars. Every working man and every employer pays into the fund. That is NOT 'Welfare" and it not funded by 'everybody elses' tax dollars.
Collecting unemployment insurance is NOT 'suckling at the collective taxpayers tit' any more than getting an insurance payment for a fire loss on your house is.
Lying around on your obese fat bellybutton popping babies out every 9.2 months to cash in on 'Welfare' is 'suckling at the collective taxpayers tit'.
Capesh?
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Anyone, but in particular those in politics.
It sounds like a qualifier then, as if the person is afraid that their words won't have as much meaning without that preface of "as a Christian".
Someone comfortable in thier faith and in themselves doesn't need to wear it on their sleeve.
I always remember the kids in my youth group at church growing up. Those that prayed the loudest and went overboard on it, always tended to be the ones that were screwing up all week and could care less about those around them It was as if they were trying to cover for themselves.
A person's actions tend to speak louder then their words in my opinion
Does it apply to absolutely everyone? Of course not, but I trust you get my point.
Somone comfortable enough in their life doesn't need to be a bigot and classify all for the words of the few. Silat likes to point that out every chance he gets. I don't push my faith down his or your throats. I don't tell you you're wrong for not beleiving.
But for somone to question my motives and the amount that I "help out" in society because he has a bug up his bellybutton with the religious right to me is inexcusable. Not to mention the fact that people are people....thus imperfect.
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Leaving religion out of it, the phrase should read " Foolish people hate people who dont help them when they're foolish>"
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I honestly don't know what you are saying. If you look at the history of Silat's among other's posts he loves to pick and choose were people who say they are christians are in fact bad people and then he blames the entire religion.
He then procedes to tell me I need to do more and help people......well I HAVE but I don't feel the need to explain anything to him.
This whole notion of the church basically scaldingt he poor because they are poor is baseless to begin with. Considering many churches in the area have opened up their doors and in many cases been the "first responders" to victims.
So what this all boils down to is that it is silat that's against the politics of the republican party and not the religion itself.
I've allways helped those less fortunate than myself. But I preferr to help people help themselves anyday. That doesn't mean I'm not helping them.
Guns please oh please point out where I have told you to do anything. You protest to much.
Yes I am against this administration. Yes Im against all those that claim to follow their bible and dont.
Jesus was a liberal my friend.
:D
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Originally posted by beet1e
Silat,
I'll be happy to discuss this and any other matter over a casual drink. May I suggest a bottle of 1945 Chateau Lafites Baron Rothschild? If not, we could make do with a 1947 Chateau Petrus...
Beetle I have an 82 haut brion if you can make it over:)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Somone comfortable enough in their life doesn't need to be a bigot and classify all for the words of the few. Silat likes to point that out every chance he gets. I don't push my faith down his or your throats. I don't tell you you're wrong for not beleiving.
But for somone to question my motives and the amount that I "help out" in society because he has a bug up his bellybutton with the religious right to me is inexcusable. Not to mention the fact that people are people....thus imperfect.
I have never ever questioned your motives youngman. And I am not a bigot. You are out of line. You are making this personal and that is against the board rules.
But you are correct that I have a problem with the religious fanatics in this country.
By making this a personal attack on me you have made it impossible to have a reasonable discussion.
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Originally posted by Silat
I have never ever questioned your motives youngman. And I am not a bigot. You are out of line. You are making this personal and that is against the board rules.
But you are correct that I have a problem with the religious fanatics in this country.
By making this a personal attack on me you have made it impossible to have a reasonable discussion.
well it's "personal" when you attack a persons religion over and over again. Then you procede to classify everyone that's a christian into the same pot as a few extremests. This makes you a bigot.
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Originally posted by Silat
Beetle I have an 82 haut brion if you can make it over:)
Yes, that would be nice - or anything else your vintner can recommend.
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Originally posted by Silat
I have never ever questioned your motives youngman.
ROFLMAO
Silat you are a total trip my friend. :)
Did you hold a pipe up and point with the stem while assuming the "Ward Cleaver" position when you posted this? :rofl
( A lot here probably don`t know who ole Ward is. :) )
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well it's "personal" when you attack a persons religion over and over again. Then you procede to classify everyone that's a christian into the same pot as a few extremests. This makes you a bigot.
Watch out. I recently got a post moderated (flame bait/personal attack) for saying pretty much the same thing. In fact, I don't think I was even that blunt. Of course, in that case it was a religious person who was tarring all athiests and agnostics with a broadly and grossly negative brush for about the third or fourth time, so maybe you're safe.
Charon
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Originally posted by Silat
snip...
Yes Im against all those that claim to follow their bible and dont
I'm 100% with you on this one; with the understanding that no one is perfect in the here and now. To quote one of my kid's hard rock bands:
I haven't noticed God to require perfection
Of those that He's able to use.
I have observed however that those used by God
Weren't content with their present state of imperfection.
Way too many people claiming to follow Jesus are more self satisfied and less self aware than is good for them. It gives faith in general a bad name.
Originally posted by Silat
snip...
Jesus was a liberal my friend.
:D
This is more true than most rightists would ever admit. He got his hands really dirty, hung out with the wrong crowd, and valued the downtrodden "real" people way more than the powerful and the religious elite. Would have to put in the qualifier, though, that he was pretty big on right and wrong existing independently of personal opinion, and on fiscal and personal responsibility -- not exactly core liberal issues.
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>>YOu might actually check the statistics as to how much fraud is in the welfare system before you use the hard right talking points that have you believing the poor choose to be poor.<<
Its hard to believe anyone would choose be poor or choose to remain on welfare and live in housing projects. But there is a type of politician that conspires to keep these people in a cage by giving them just enough to stay alive, but not enough to break out of the cage. Mary Landrieu is such a politician.
Requiring someone progress is leading them out of poverty. Keeping people as pets with a few food stamps is exploitation and vile.
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RE Welfare
what some of you don't realize is that the welfare system is a trap door. Once you get on it, the food stamps, the housing it's hard to get off of it. There's very little govt accountablity in this area because the politicians are afraid to touch it, or they don't want to mess with their base.
When somone get's on assitance it's hard to get a higher paying job because they will lose their assistance and the gap in income difference just isn't enough. There's very few local govts that have an effective way to "wean" people off of welfare.
Alot of crime spawns from these areas as well.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
There's very little govt accountablity in this area because the politicians are afraid to touch it, or they don't want to mess with their base.
The only guy who could say "welfare reform" without being accused of desiring to starve children was Bill Clinton.
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What I have seen since Katrina:
The poor and the wealthy hurt by the storm.
Black, white, Hispanic, Oriental and Indian all hurt by the storm.
Christian people giving, giving, giving.
Churches going all out to minister in Jesus' name.
Neighbors going door to door helping one another.
Thugs and hoodlums going door to door looking for someone vulnerable.
Ice and water being fought over as police tried to keep the peace.
People coming up from New Orleans taking over empty houses because shelters are full.
Out of town volunteers coming with food and staying for now a month still serving it.
The Churches all over this part of the country doing what Christians do in a crisis.
The Red Cross doing a great job in the shelters.
The Salvation Army doing a great job in the community.
Four Hundred crewman from everywhere bring back the power to our homes, churches and businesses.
Lines at service stations a block to a mile long.
National Guardsman patrolling the streets of McComb along with Kentucky policemen protecting us from the hoodlums and thugs of McComb, Pike County and New Orleans (the most dangerous city in the world before Katrina.)
Drug dealers working outside shelters.
Doctors, nurses and other hospital personnel working tirelessly, even sleeping in the hospital to do the job God called them to do.
WHAT I HAVE NOT SEEN;
The ACLU setting up a feeding line.
People for the American Way helping in the shelters.
The NAACP doing any work whatsoever.
The American Atheist organization serving meals in the shelters.
Jesse Jackson directing traffic at the gas stations.
I could go on but you get my message. Its the Christian people with love and compassion who do the work.
The gripers in Congress should come on down and get in line to pass the water and the ice. Are you listening Hillary, Chuck, Teddy and all the sorry loafers we call Senators and Congressmen. They don't have a clue as to what this life is all about on the Gulf Coast.