Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 1K3 on September 16, 2005, 01:10:48 AM
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New players like the aggressive styling of Fw-190s, howoever they are hold back because it has different flight characteristics.
(now start)
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Don't turn below 170 unless you know what the %#$! you're doing!
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Dont turn into position,Roll into position
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don't
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Don't turn at all more or less. Stay away from turnfights, not even a few "laps" if you can call it that.
You will be called bore n zooming sissy pants by many people, usually those who are anoyed with you not fighting on their terms. Ignore it, fly what you like and like what you fly, and fly it your way.
If the fight is fair you've done something wrong.
The Fw 190 is the worst turner in the game when it comes to sustained turn rate, while it can turn very hard at high speeds, that maneuver is limited by G forces for the pilot, and after the initial turn it will have lost most of its E.
Learn to aim and shoot at high speeds, deflection shots (not just picking the one who fly straight).
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Dont turn into position,Roll into position
Survey sez..... DING DING DING
WinnnnaR!
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Don't fly it.
Take a La-7 or a quad-Hizooka Typhie.
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Stay away from the sissy boring LA7's. Don't listen to Kweassa :D ;)
Seriously though, the Dora is 10 times more fun to fly compared to an LA7, much more challenging.
The tiffie is different but also quite fun to fly, what makes it alot easier than any 190 is the better turn radius and most of all, far superior guns.
Wurger for life.
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"10 times more challenge" usually equates to "10 times less survivability" :D
At least the Lgays or Buffoons can turn somewhat when pressed down. The 190 has no options, zip, zilch, nada, when caught slow. It's such a simple plane to fly with very simple and essential tactics. No theatrics at all with the 190 - straight stick to BnZ.
That's why it's not fun! :D
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If your new the best german plane to start off with is the 109F after you get the feel of that work yourself up the ladder. Id learn the 109s and 110s before you try your hand at the 190s. 190s arent for new guys hell they arent really for most vets. I only fly agenst buffs in a A8 with quad 20s and if theres a non spit/la7 fight going on then I get a Dora. If theres a GV battle then I get the F8. I dont even touch the A5 only 190 vets should even think about hoping in one.
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Naw.. the newbies really should start out from 190s, and then move over to other planes.
People who start out with Nikis, Spits, and 109F-4s become too lazy! :D
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I started out with a 109F :(
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Originally posted by Kweassa
"10 times more challenge" usually equates to "10 times less survivability" :D
At least the Lgays or Buffoons can turn somewhat when pressed down. The 190 has no options, zip, zilch, nada, when caught slow. It's such a simple plane to fly with very simple and essential tactics. No theatrics at all with the 190 - straight stick to BnZ.
That's why it's not fun! :D
You've obviously havent flown 190's long enough to get to be any good in them
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Originally posted by Larry
If your new the best german plane to start off with is the 109F after you get the feel of that work yourself up the ladder. Id learn the 109s and 110s before you try your hand at the 190s. 190s arent for new guys hell they arent really for most vets. I only fly agenst buffs in a A8 with quad 20s and if theres a non spit/la7 fight going on then I get a Dora. If theres a GV battle then I get the F8. I dont even touch the A5 only 190 vets should even think about hoping in one.
190s are easy mode, just run - dive - shoot - climb - repeat. You have ammo for days. Anyone who can hit a deflection shot can rack up easy kills cherrypicking in them.
I don't know how people can stand that boring watermelon but that's just me. Not to say that there aren't a couple of guys who can fight in them but they are few and far between.
Also IMHO the A5 is the only 190 that's any fun. It actually turns pretty good to a point. I've flown it a few times and had a blast turn fighting some of the better turners.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Naw.. the newbies really should start out from 190s, and then move over to other planes.
People who start out with Nikis, Spits, and 109F-4s become too lazy! :D
Actually, in the proper order should read
Spits,LALAs,KI84s,Nikis and then the 109f4
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The 190 is great fun to E fight in, it's great fun to B&Z in, only the people who are B&Z:ed think it is boring, and I couldn't care much less what they think.
The 190's are great fun to stall fight in although they are difficult, everything outturns them.
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Originally posted by DipStick
190s are easy mode, just run - dive - shoot - climb - repeat. You have ammo for days. Anyone who can hit a deflection shot can rack up easy kills cherrypicking in them.
I don't know how people can stand that boring watermelon but that's just me. Not to say that there aren't a couple of guys who can fight in them but they are few and far between.
Also IMHO the A5 is the only 190 that's any fun. It actually turns pretty good to a point. I've flown it a few times and had a blast turn fighting some of the better turners.
And you must be spending too much time getting vulched or cherry picked by SHawk.
I will agree though the A5 is the most fun to fly. as well as being able to turn halfway decent a tank of fuel lasts a hell of alot longer then the other variants.
I am usually willing to mix it up in whatever Im in. If Im running its usually cause Im either out of ammo,low on fuel or running to get separation so that I can turn around and re-enter the fight and have some E to play with.
You can turn fight the other variants. just not for long. And you shouldt turn fight at all but roll fight. You can accomplish much the same thing without using all your E in one turn.
And actually unless Im being gangbanged I almost prefer my opponents to start off higher then me.
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Originally posted by DipStick
190s are easy mode, just run - dive - shoot - climb - repeat. You have ammo for days. Anyone who can hit a deflection shot can rack up easy kills cherrypicking in them.
I don't know how people can stand that boring watermelon but that's just me. Not to say that there aren't a couple of guys who can fight in them but they are few and far between.
Also IMHO the A5 is the only 190 that's any fun. It actually turns pretty good to a point. I've flown it a few times and had a blast turn fighting some of the better turners.
Yes they're easymode when youv got the E but once youv lost it and have a con on your six its takes more skill to get them off then if your in any other plane
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Dont use the gunsight, it is useless.
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Mando?
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Originally posted by Larry
Yes they're easymode when youv got the E but once youv lost it and have a con on your six its takes more skill to get them off then if your in any other plane
Can only go by what I see in the MA. I've flown the A5 some but "fought".. as in furballed in it. That was fun for me, like furballing in jug too.
What I've seen in MA is dive - shoot - run - repeat adnauseum. If anyone gets close it's floppy fish 101. Seen a few use the ludicrous rollrate to evade nicely but that's also those rare ones who can actually fly it.
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Yes Wilbus, I never use the sight. Current sight/head placement and gun dispersion render the sight useless, specially historic and accurately marked sights like Revis. Actually the sight is more and obstacle than a helpful tool for 190s and 109s.
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In addition to what some of the others said, I take 75% fuel or less depending on the distance to the fight. I try to have about 50% or less when entering a fight. I do not take the outer MG-FF's with me (so this applies to the A5, as I don't fly the Dora much anymore nor the A8 or F8). At this weight, the A5 can surprise some of the less experienced. It's possible to pull the nose up (stay out of plane) while slow and get an overshoot. If you get someone decent on your tail chances are you're dead anyway but at least you can try. Only problem is you don't have much time before your fuel runs out.
Practice flying slow - you'll need to use the rudder a lot. Just in case...
Gunnery is really important, which is why I suck and can't land more than 4-5 kills per sortie. This means being able to properly set up shots as well as execute them. It isn't easy to get snapshots with only 2x20mm but it's doable if you get in close and the target is slow. You'll also need a steady hand here, which is something that I need to work on also. If you need last minute corrections, your chances of missing increase. I had been flying with tracers off, but after turning them back on again I found I have not been leading the shots enough even at 200 yds. Mandoble is right, because of dispersion and ballistics I try to shoot at 200 yds or under (convergence set to 200-250yds) to deal with it.
mauser
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Avoiding all the jokes and put-downs about the 190s, let's get back on track.
Trying to lead an enemy target while it's under your nose is hard. You can't see squat. So either give it lots of lead and spray/pray (you have plenty of ammo for both), try to position yourself ahead of the target and roll your plane so the enemy target crosses from the "top" of your screen. That way you have much better visibility to get the shot. The superb roll rate helps this, as you can get into position and instantly roll 180, fire on the target, then roll 180 again and reposition if necessary.
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I'm not a great pilot by any means, and I wouldn't presume to know so much as to tell other people what to fly and how to fly it, but I started in the 109F and the 190A5. I found both planes to be quite easy to fly. Whatever you fly the most, will become the plane in which you fly best. We aren't real pilots, in real planes, in a real war. Familiarity, and some basic grasp of fighting will overcome many of a planes shortcomings.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
.....We aren't real pilots, in real planes, in a real war. Familiarity, and some basic grasp of fighting will overcome many of a planes shortcomings.
This guy is obviously nuts, and I would be suspect about anything he posts from this time forth. What does he think this is - a game?!?!
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Hub, you are right. Flying the plane over and over will make you better, but reading a thing or two first, and then trying them out, helps a lot. You might fly for a year and get really good, but then somebody says "kick in flaps at the top of a loop, they'll flip your nose over much faster", and while you COULD have done that on your own, and may have eventually found out, if somebody lets you in on the "secret" you learn that much faster.
Just an example.
I try not to get stuck in the same plane(s) all the time. I try to fly various makes and models. That way I learn what works in different planes and try to apply it to similar flying planes. Example: The C205 flies a lot easier if you fly a 109 for a while before trying the C205. And, believe it or not (I'm guessing NOT) I find that flying a 190A is a lot like flying the Ki84. Sure it turns better but is has some similar qualities.
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You know, I'm going to have to agree with you on that. I also fly a variety of planes, and tend to think as much about what my opponent's plane's strengths are, as I do about my own plane. And again, that comes down to either advice I've received, or experience in a particular plane. Obviously, it's alot easier to get 5 minutes worth of hints than 5 years worth of dweebtime, but I have the latter, so I'm a bit biased, I suppose.
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lol, you ALMOST made my list of quotes in my sig, but almost isn't enough :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
try to position yourself ahead of the target and roll your plane so the enemy target crosses from the "top" of your screen.
OMG :huh
How about only rising your head a bit?
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My advice is DON'T FLY THEM!!!. It pains me very time I shoot one down. Less 190s in the air, less guilty I feel at the end of the night. ;)
As for real advice, use the rudder to turn. While in most planes a simple turn involves rolling 45-90 degrees and pulling back on the stick while using rudder and ailerons to keep nose in position, the 190 is just the opposite. Roll only 45-60 degrees, hard rudder into the turn and use elevators and ailerons to keep nose steady. This takes a lot of practice for some, but yields the best results.
As for the knocks on the 190, while most of the world was still mired in the slow agile plane concept of the old Bi-planes, the 190 marked a new direction for combat airplanes. Power, speed and enough agility to get out of a turn as fast as you got into one.
We (and I use that term loosely) engage in insane turn fights because we can. There is no fear of death, injury or even damaging our plane. The 190 was specifically designed to get a 1-3 second gun solution and then be able to "reset" if terminal damage was not inflicted. To the AH community, simply put, BnZ. It's wasn't designed to follow some **** through 85 ACMs, down 12,000 ft. only to wind up otd to get picked by someone else. :furious
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point nose down 90 degrees and run
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In AH, does the weight of the plane decreased if you dump MG ammos? I think its not proven yet but if yes i recomend to dump the peashooters for 190s to squeeze better performance and keep the heavy cannons :)
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Originally posted by MANDO
OMG :huh
How about only rising your head a bit?
Mando that doesn't help too much. The section blocked out in the forward view of the 190 sucks big time. Raising the head helps in some planes, but I don't find it helps any in the 190. Especially with "under the nose" deflection shooting. It was just a suggestion, take it or leave it, but I think that setting up a shot where you don't need "under the nose" deflection is better than raising the head position.
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Originally posted by 1K3
In AH, does the weight of the plane decreased if you dump MG ammos? I think its not proven yet but if yes i recomend to dump the peashooters for 190s to squeeze better performance and keep the heavy cannons :)
Ammo count *IS* part of the weight. If you dump all the MGs you will fly lighter. HOWEVER, I don't do that because I use the peashooters. Especially the Dora and A8 peashooters (2x50cals, basically!).
Somebody had timed it out so they knew exactly how many seconds of MGs and of cannons there were, and fired off about half the MGs so that all guns ran dry at the same time. I usually run outta gas by that time or am dead, so I don't bother.
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I'm sure dumping a few hundred rounds does reduce the weight by some amount, but I, for one, have never looked around and said "Damn, I brought too much ammo for this fight".
Mgs may have no use in the nonsubscriber arenas, but a huge furball is a different animal entirely.
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I've heard claims that ammo weight effects performance. going back even to airwarriorI personally havent noticed any kind of significant difference.
I havent seen a plane in any meaningful way peform any better with no ammo then it does with a full ammo load.
Fuel and ord(bombs/rockets/droptanks) load has a much greater effect
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Wear leather and Believe in the Tank force... The Force of Kurt Tankus Prime!
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Only thing hacks me off about German planes is incredibly poor muzzle velocity of 20mm compared to American 50's or the Hizooka...if ya are behind a goon at 500, ya have to aim fargin guns up in air like a Howitzer---I have dialup (poor dialup at that) and I NEVER hit any blind snapshots with A8 or D9...always seem to be behind plane--strap on a tiffy or P47, such hits are fairly easy
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Originally posted by bj229r
Only thing hacks me off about German planes is incredibly poor muzzle velocity
While 151/20 MZ may be an issue, the real problems are ROF of sync guns, round dispersion and damage.
Damage: a single hit in one spot will unlikely cause any damage. You need to concentrate some hits over the same spot to break something, but then you'll find the following two problems.
Round dispersion: The sight is useless. You cannot use a marked sight to fire short and accurate bursts over one spot trying to achieve two or more hits over the same place. While this issue is common to most guns in the game, it is a real problem if you have a low rof and weak rounds.
ROF of syncronized guns: A plane can cross through your bullet stream without any hit. This may be caused by a low rof mixed up with a concentration of bullets per "flying round".
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Mando I don't think there is a concentration of single rounds. Have HT said there is?
Look at .target, every round fired is making a hole afaik.
But I do agree that planes often fly through the bulletstream withoput getting hit, always puzzled when they do.
750 isn't THAT slow, that is well above 10 rounds per second, 2 guns will make it well above 20 rounds per second so why the fly through the bulletstream is beyond me. Guessing it is just poor aim.
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The P-47 vs Fw-190 is actually a good fight, the Thunderbolt will turn better, but I think the 190 will outaccelerate the jug
+ the performances are both rather equal
The .303's won't do anything against the P-47 though, might have a lucky headshot
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I've heard claims that ammo weight effects performance. going back even to airwarriorI personally havent noticed any kind of significant difference.
They matter in a long, sustained stallfight, something you wont have if either guy is in a 190 (maybe if they are both 190s though).
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Originally posted by frank3
The P-47 vs Fw-190 is actually a good fight, the Thunderbolt will turn better, but I think the 190 will outaccelerate the jug
+ the performances are both rather equal
The .303's won't do anything against the P-47 though, might have a lucky headshot
Frank you missed IK3's HTH room where for a week he had 190a8s vs p47d25s. The A8s dominated but a small but definite margin.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Mando I don't think there is a concentration of single rounds. Have HT said there is?
I have no idea how it is modelled, but the fact is that planes fly through the middle of the bullet stream without hits, and this is not uncommon. With 20 real rounds per second, these cases would be very rare.
It seems that there is a ROF "limit". Below it, this effect is very common, above it just the opposite (190 2x20 sync + 2x13 vs 109 3x20 unsync).
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Originally posted by Krusty
Frank you missed IK3's HTH room where for a week he had 190a8s vs p47d25s. The A8s dominated but a small but definite margin.
P-47D-25 is a good match for 190A-8 BUT everyone in that D-25cant afford to get in slow dogfights. P-47D-25 can dogfite that 190A-8 1 v 1 slow speeds (and of course with FLAPs extended) but chances aer you'll get shot down quick when hios wingmen recieves order to attack a P-47 behind the leader's 6.
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Well Mando I agree with the fact that planes pass through the bullet streams often, very very often. I am always surprised and confused when they do.
However, afaik every single bullet is modelled. One way to see that is that you can infact fire 1x20mm round at a time (although difficult) and you also see the bullets hit the .target where every bullet leaves a hole.
So why the plane pass through I can't explain, still thinking bad aim (atleast for me)
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Tips :
When stupid/drunk/tired : fly the Dorka9 and start a "hun run" when out of option
When smart/brain active : fly the A8/5 make slashing attack (you can pull a lot fo G provided you can kill)
The best way to train for the A8/5 is offline you make B&Z on the drone Hoing them the fire opportunity will be very short and it will improve your gunnery.
And put all the gun the increase of roll rate is not worth the loss of firepower
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If you're the type that seems to fire at closer ranges (waits til the last second) take the 30mm on the A8. They make a big difference when they land. In one sortie (in about 15 minutes) I know I got 3 30mm kills and about 3 non-30mm kills (30mm kills = catastrophic failure with 1 ping or so, non-30mm = 30mms ran dry by then).
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Naw.. the newbies really should start out from 190s, and then move over to other planes.
People who start out with Nikis, Spits, and 109F-4s become too lazy! :D
Here is the kill list for tour 68, as of about 12 PM Alaska time 19th of Sept
109F4 2,156 Kills 1,782 deaths
Spit V 9,453 kills 10,849 deaths
Spit 9 9,513 kills, 9,194 deaths
LA7 17,592 kills 14,788 deaths
Ki-84 4,228 kills 3,277 deaths
NIK2 13,405 kills 12,231 deaths
I am not sure the 109F4 makes you lazy. It is a great little plane in the hand of a good pilot (as are most planes) but it is hardly a newbie plane IMHO. I can do much better in a 190D9 on K/D than a 109F4.
I think that one of the best none perk rides, that will get you into the fight, and help you crawl out alive is the 190D9. But the 109F4 can be a lot of fun to fly and can be a real scrapper in a knife fight. I like it because it is more challenging than a Dora.
I real life my ride of choice in the non-perkies would be the PonyD.
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Options for D-9 are rather limited when it comes to dogfighting. Like Messer's 109K series my guess would be that K.Tank designed the D series as a stop gap, fast interceptor to close the gap with USAAF fighters. Correct me if im wrong but the D-9s are used as "Lance" with conjunnction with "Swordfighters" in a "horde" formation:)
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The Dora was a stop gap while designingen the Ta152 series.
Never heard this about the 109 K... who says the K was a stop gap?
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Does our 190s fly in wrong attitude? I think they should fly more tail up than they do now?
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I started with the A-26 in AW (Don't ask why, I guess I was insane :rolleyes: ) When I decided to get into a fighter I didn't want to be called a Spit or Pony dweeb so I get into the 190. I flew it exclusivly for 5 years. The ammo loadout and speed is great and the range is even better. It can take a beating about as good as the Jug. But, it takes practice and finese' to fly her properly. If you are suckered into a turnfight then yer done! If you must turn, do it once and then lead out to get some E back and then Split-S to come back. Use the BnZ tactic, it works every time:aok
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Well Legend those things don't really apply in AH.
Range is not very good. It's OK (good enough for any AH engagement) with DT but DT hampers the performance.
In AH it doesn't take a beating like a Jug, not anywhere near it actually but it does handle dammage fairly good. Not the Dora and Ta152 though as they pretty much always lose radiator first few hits.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Well Legend those things don't really apply in AH.
Oh great! Now I gotta learn how to die all over again!:cry
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Originally posted by Charge
Does our 190s fly in wrong attitude? I think they should fly more tail up than they do now?
Fw190 view 1 (http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/190view1.jpg)
Fw190 view 2 (http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/190view2.jpg)
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I have come into conclusion that 190 is all about engine oil and elevators. Those are what come off first nearly always when I get hit... :p
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