Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: parin on September 17, 2005, 06:41:55 PM
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Lawrence Thompson meets Hartmann's G-14
".... this was my first major dogfight I had in the war, in January 1945. I was flying a P-51D and
we were supposed to meet with bombers over Romania. Well, the bombers never showed up!
And we kept circling and wasting our fuel. When we were low on fuel the squadron leader orders
us back to base, with the top group at 24,000 feet and the four bait Mustangs ordered to 15,000
feet. Now you might not really think about it, but the difference in altitude, 9,000 feet, is almost
two miles, and assuming that the top flight could dive and rescue the 'bait' airplanes, it might take
a full sixty seconds or more for the top group to come to the rescue. A heck of alot can happen in
sixty seconds. Earlier, I requested to fly in the bait section believing that I'd have a better chance
to get some scores (at that time I had no victories either) and this was my seventh mission. I have
to say now that I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas, and my older brother flew a Jenny biplane in
the late 1930s, so I learned the basics of flying even before joining the Army.
So we're all heading back to Italy when, all of a sudden, a dozen or so Me109's bounce us. From
one moment it's a clear blue sky, next moment there are dozens' of tracers passing my cockpit.
I'm hit several times and I roll over to the right, and below me is an P-51, heading for the deck,
with an Me109 chasing him. I begin to chase the Me109. All this time I believe there was
another Me109 chasing me! It was a racetrack, all four of us were racing for the finish line!
Eventually I caught up with the first Me109 and I fired a long burst at about 1,000 yards, to no
effect. Then I waited until about 600 yards, I fired two very long bursts, probably five seconds
each (P-51 has ammo for about 18 seconds of continuous bursts for four machine guns, the
remaining two machine guns will shoot for about 24 seconds). I noticed that part of his engine
cowling flew off and he immediately broke off his attack on the lead P-51. I check my rear view
mirrors and there's nothing behind me now; somehow, I have managed to lose the Me109
following me, probably because the diving speed of the P-51 is sixty mph faster than the Me109.
So I pull up on the yoke and level out; suddenly a Me109 loomes about as large as a barn door
right in front of me! And he fires his guns at me, and he rolls to the right, in a Lufberry circle. I
peel off, following this Me109. I can see silver P-51s and black nosed camouflaged painted
Me109s everywhere I look, there's Me109 or P-51 everywhere! At this time I cannot get on the
transmitter and talk, everyone else in the squadron is yelling and talking, and there's nothing but
yelling, screaming, and incoherent interference as everyone presses their mike buttons at the
same time. I can smell something in the cockpit. Hydraulic fluid! I knew I got hit earlier.
.... I'm still following this Me109. I just got my first confirmed kill of my tour, and now I'm
really hot. I believe that I am the hottest pilot in the USAAF! And now I'm thinking to myself:
am I going to shoot this Me109 down too?! He rolls and we turn, and turn; somehow, I cannot
catch up with him in the Lufberry circle, we just keep circling. About the third 360 degree turn
he and I must have spotted two Mustangs flying below us, about 2,000 feet below, and he dives
for the two P-51s.
Now I'm about 150 yards from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because
if I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both P-51s, so I get a
front seat, watching, fearful that this guy will shoot down a P-51 we're approaching at about 390
mph. There's so much interference on the R/T I cannot warn the two Mustangs, I fire one very
long burst of about seven or eight seconds purposely wide, so it misses the Mustangs, and the
Me109 pilot can see the tracers. None of the Mustang pilots see the tracers either! I was half
hoping expecting that they'd see my tracers and turn out of the way of the diving Me109. But no
such luck. I quit firing. The Me109 still dives, and as he approaches the two P-51s he holds his
fire, and as the gap closes, two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards the Hun does not
fire a shot. No tracers, nothing! At less than ten yards, it looks like he's going to ram the lead P-
51 and the Hun fires one single shot from his 20mm cannon! And Bang! Engine parts, white
smoke, glycol, whatnot from the lead P-51 is everywhere, and that unfortunate Mustang begins a
gentle roll to the right.
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I try to watch the Mustang down, but cannot, Now my full attention is on the Hun! Zoom. We fly
through the two Mustangs (he was taken POW). Now the advantage of the P-51 is really
apparent, as in a dive I am catching up to the Me109 faster than a runaway freight train. I press
the trigger for only a second then I let up on the trigger, I believe at that time I was about 250
yards distant, but the Hun was really pulling lots' of negative and positive g's and pulling up to
the horizon. He levels out and then does a vertical tail stand! And next thing I know, he's using
his built up velocity from the dive to make a vertical ninety degree climb. This guy is really an
experienced pilot. I'm in a vertical climb, and my P-51 begins to roll clockwise violently, only by
pushing my left rudder almost through the floor can I stop my P-51 from turning. We climb for
altitude; in the straight climb that Me109 begins to out distance me, though my built up diving
speed makes us about equal in the climb. We climb one thousand fifteen hundred feet, and at
eighteen hundred feet, the hun levels his aircraft out. A vertical climb of 1,800 feet! I've never
heard of a piston aircraft climbing more than 1,000 feet in a tail stand. At this time we're both
down to stall speed, and he levels out. My airspeed indicator reads less than 90 mph! So we level
out. I'm really close now to the Me109, less than twenty five yards! Now if I can get my guns on
him.........
At this range, the gunsight is more of nuisance than a help. Next thing, he dumps his flaps fast
and I begin to overshoot him! That's not what I want to do, because then he can bear his guns on
me. The P-51 has good armor, but not good enough to stop 20mm cannon hits. This Luftwaffe
pilot must be one heck of a marksman, I just witnessed him shooting down a P-51 with a single
20mm cannon shot! So I do the same thing, I dump my flaps, and as I start to overshoot him, I
pull my nose up, this really slows me down; S-T-A-L-L warning comes on! and I can't see
anything ahead of me nor in the rear view mirror. Now I'm sweating everywhere. My eyes are
burning because salty sweat keeps blinding me: 'Where is He!?!' I shout to myself. I level out to
prevent from stalling. And there he is. Flying on my right side. We are flying side to side, less
than twenty feet separates our wingtips. He's smiling and laughing at himself. I notice that he has
a red heart painted on his aircraft, just below the cockpit. The nose and spinner are painted black.
It's my guess that he's a very experienced ace from the Russian front. His tail has a number
painted on it: "200". I wonder: what the "two hundred" means!? Now I began to examine his
airplane for any bullet hits, afterall, I estimate that I just fired 1,600 rounds at the hun. I cannot
see a single bullet hole in his aircraft! I could swear that I must have gotten at least a dozen hits!
I keep inspecting his aircraft for any damage. One time, he even lifts his left wing about 15
degrees, to let me see the underside, still no hits! That's impossible I tell myself. Totally
impossible. Then I turn my attention back to the "200" which is painted on the tail rudder.
German aces normally paint a marker for each victory on their tail. It dawns on me that quick:
TWO HUNDRED KILLS !! We fly side by side for five minutes. Those five minutes take
centuries to pass. Less than twenty five feet away from me is a Luftwaffe ace, with over two
hundred kills. We had been in a slow gradual dive now, and my altitude indicates 8,000 feet. I'm
panicking now, even my socks are soaked in sweat. The German pilot points at his tail,
obviously meaning the "200" victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knifecutting
motion across his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm going
to be his 201 kill! Panic! I'm breathing so hard, it sounds like a wind tunnel with my mask on.
My heart rate must have doubled to 170 beats per minute; I can feel my chest, thump-thump and
so.
This goes on for centuries, and centuries. The two of us flying at stall speed, wingtip to wingtip. I
think more than once of simply ramming him. He keeps watching my ailerons, maybe that's what
he expects me to do. We had heard of desperate pilots who, after running out of ammunition,
would commit suicide by ramming an enemy plane. Then I decide that I can Immelmann out of
the situation, and I began to climb, but because my flaps are down, my Mustang only climbs
about one hundred feet, pitches over violently to the right and stalls. The next instant I'm
dangerously spinning, heading ninety degrees vertically down! And the IAS reads 300 mph! My
P-51 just falls like a rock to the earth! I hold the yoke in the lower left corner and sit on the left
rudder, flaps up, and apply FULL POWER! I pull out of the dive at about 500 feet, level out, (I
began to black out so with my left hand I pinch my veins in my neck to stop blackout). I scan the
sky for anything! There's not a plane in the sky, I dive to about fifty feet elevation, heading
towards Italy. I fly at maximum power for about ten minutes, and then reduce my rpm (to save
gasoline), otherwise the P-51 has very limited range at full power. I fly like this for maybe an
hour, no planes in the vicinity; all the time I scan the sky, check my rear view mirrors.
I never saw the Me109 with the red heart again. At the mess I mention the Me109 with the red
heart and "200" written on the tail. That's when the whole room, I mean everybody, gets instantly
quiet. Like you could hear a pin drop. Two weeks later the base commander shows me a telex:
"....according to intelligence, the German pilot with a red heart is Eric Hartmann who has
downed 250 aircraft and there is a reward of fifty thousand dollars offered by Stalin for shooting
him down. I’ve never before heard of a cash reward for shooting down an enemy ace ... "
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Incredible story, especially with Hartmann's sign language. He must have been a very cool and calm pilot to be pulling that on Thompson.
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that is insane.
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thats some scarry ****!:)
That G-14 is the souped up version of 109G-6 right?
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Great read! Thanks!:aok
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Hartmann....The Ace of Aces. Good read.
Karaya
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great story.
38
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great story thanks for taking the time to type all that
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Perfect account of the P51 runstang in action.
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It may or may not have happened, but it certainly didn't involve Hartman. I think that story has been posted here before.
J_A_B
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It certainly wasn't Hartmann. This story has been discussed many times over the years on various forums and its clear that who ever Mr. Thompson fought it wasn't Hartmann.
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faked story,
proofen so often
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In either case, a good read none the less:)
:aok
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It really shows that if a guy who had only been on 7 missions gave that good of a fight against Hartmann, he probably wouldnt have made it to 200 kills if he had 51s to fight from the beginning.
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Certainly ,a 109E is really out-everything by a mustang
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Originally posted by FiLtH
It really shows that if a guy who had only been on 7 missions gave that good of a fight against Hartmann, he probably wouldnt have made it to 200 kills if he had 51s to fight from the beginning.
Here's an excellent write-up (http://www.acepilots.com/german/ger_aces.html) on that very issue...why so many German pilots had hundreds of kills while none of the allies even came close.
Then read up on Hartmann (http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html) himself. Seems he got his first kill in November of '42 and FINALLY got his second three months later...in February of '43. Now I don't feel so bad when I go multiple sorties without one, hehe;)
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Hartman, the vulcher of Il2's and cargo planes. Lol, at least most of them were flying when he shot them!
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Well even if it was not Hartmann it is an interesting story. Lawrence Thompson certainly had his hands full with who ever it was. From what I understand the story is true but the identity of the enemy pilot is not known. Had Thompson not been in a P-51 he would have been in big trouble.
And Skyrock I am sure Hartmann had a few kills on the LAgays.
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I would think that Thompson would've rathered it to be Hartman other wise he was outflown by a rookie 109 pileit.
Of course he was probably making it up to impress his squadiies and didnt realize the all knowing AH2 fantics would know the difference,but we do.Because as everyone knows the 109 will own the pony,unless it dives.
JB12
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I would think that Thompson would've rathered it to be Hartman other wise he was outflown by a rookie 109 pileit.
Of course he was probably making it up to impress his squadiies and didnt realize the all knowing AH2 fantics would know the difference,but we do.Because as everyone knows the 109 will own the pony,unless it dives.
Come now, that's a bit degrading.
There are split opinions on this matter but the more dominant conclusion seems to be that it wasn't Hartmann. However, even if Thompson may be a bit exaggerating, the fact seems to be that he met a good 109 pilot, almost lost the encounter, and survived.
Wouldn't that be enough?
It's not like Thompson's account had a title called "The Greatest Dogfight Ever, and why an Ami Pilot Lost". :D
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Originally posted by JB12
Because as everyone knows the 109 will own the pony, unless it dives.
Really?
BTW I fly the G10 as my main ride.
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Originally posted by JB12
I would think that Thompson would've rathered it to be Hartman other wise he was outflown by a rookie 109 pileit.
Of course he was probably making it up to impress his squadiies and didnt realize the all knowing AH2 fantics would know the difference,but we do.Because as everyone knows the 109 will own the pony,unless it dives.
JB12
Two weeks later the base commander shows me a telex:
Doesn't sound like he was "making it up". Also the 109 in question dove on 2 other 51s at one point. No doubt they confirmed his story. In no way should any dweeb gameplayer on this or any other game board disrespect any actual pilot who actually flew and fought in a real war.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
the fact seems to be that he met a good 109 pilot, almost lost the encounter, and survived.
[/b]
Or almost won, depending on one's viewpoint.
Now I'm about 150 yards from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because if I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both P-51s,
Too bad the other 51's were in the cone from his point of view.
Say, why didn't those guys have killshooter?
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Interesting story, but perhaps not to be taken at face value. For example, how can he tell that "Hartmann" fired only one round, when he is on his tail? There are other anomalies. Sounds like something written for a men's magazine (but fun to read nevertheless).
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I like the term Ami... in french it means friend :)
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Stang I was refering to the Pony diving,not the 109,as the pony dosnt seem to compress and 109 compresses somewhat early ina dive,of course it's easy to recover from but still a 109 will not dive with a ponyand as most know the g10 is my main ride.
JB12
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Originally posted by JB12
I would think that Thompson would've rathered it to be Hartman other wise he was outflown by a rookie 109 pileit.
Of course he was probably making it up to impress his squadiies and didnt realize the all knowing AH2 fantics would know the difference,but we do.Because as everyone knows the 109 will own the pony,unless it dives.
JB12
Are you really this clueless in life?
Karaya
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Originally posted by DipStick
Two weeks later the base commander shows me a telex:
Doesn't sound like he was "making it up". Also the 109 in question dove on 2 other 51s at one point. No doubt they confirmed his story. In no way should any dweeb gameplayer on this or any other game board disrespect any actual pilot who actually flew and fought in a real war.
Damn right!
Karaya
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clueless as to what?
1. The fact that it was broadcasted 2 weeks later that so and so plane was Hartmans?
2. The fact that he may have had prior knowledge of Hartmans planes markings and thereby claimed it to be possibly Hartman?
3. Even the most prestegous of people can fabricate a story to impress people?
4. That you want to bait me ,to show that you have some kind of higher reasoning than most people?
5. That in fact it probably wasnt Hartman,but who cares it was a good read?
So as to being "clueless" I guess it just depends on which side of the fence your standing on.It's funny how some call it disrespect to call it as you see it when they are doing precisely the same thing "calling it as they see it".The only real way to have ever known if it was Hartman was to be there, in which most of "dweeby gamers" werent.Who will ever know ,besides those who were actually there? NOONE.
JB12
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Originally posted by JB12
clueless as to what?
4. That you want to bait me ,to show that you have some kind of higher reasoning than most people?
JB12
Bait? You're the boy making light of WWII pilots.
Karaya
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edited my post for you,read it again ,although I bet you'll have some witty comment to make.
Although I find it amzing that the there's a disclaimer to the story in question and yet it remains on the table to be argued.Please read the disclaimer posted just prior to the start of the story on this web site as well as many others
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-ErichHartmann.html
But I'm sure some ,who have no clue either, only what they conjecture or fabricate will contend that it was indeed Hartman.I'm a big fan of Hartmans history and acomplishments.
JB12
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Originally posted by JB12
in fact it probably
being "clueless" I guess
some call it disrespect -----
JB12
You are a walking contridiction in terms.
As is the "disclaimer" on your website.
the concensus on this story seems to be that it is not authentic. If the story is real
Hence the "clueless" comment.
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I'm sure that someone of your caliber can see that "concensus" means the majority believe it to be false.Why do you think the belive it to be false?Probably because there's no supporting evidence proving it was indeed Hartman.You prove nothing by calling me a contrdiction ,that's just a half hearted attempt to bash my character because I offended your belief,or at least what you the minority who belive it was Hartman think.You took my comments about Thompson prefering the incounter to be with Hartman as an insult.Prove that it was indeed Hartman and I stand corrected.All of which is a mute point because as I've stated none of us were there and records do not reflect that was Hartman.Further more there's even a belief that the story may not even be true at all,only folklore,of which many heros have been born of.
JB12
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Quit backpedaling please.
Karaya
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I havent backed up at all.You still say it was and I still say it wasnt as does the general concensus.Good attempt though,I'll give it a 3 for originality.
JB12
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So conclusion?
Did this guy meet Hartmann or not?
Best would be to check dates.
Anyway what did Hartmann do when he got jumped by a gaggle of 51's? :D
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Originally posted by JB12
I'm sure that someone of your caliber can see that "concensus" means the majority believe it to be false
That doesn't make it false.
Why do you think the belive it to be false?Probably because there's no supporting evidence proving it was indeed Hartman.
There's nothing proving it was NOT Hartman either.
You prove nothing by calling me a contrdiction ,that's just a half hearted attempt to bash my character because I offended your belief,or at least what you the minority who belive it was Hartman think.
I don't care if the story is true or not. I just don't like some punk behind a computer passing judgement on a war hero.
You took my comments about Thompson prefering the incounter to be with Hartman as an insult.Prove that it was indeed Hartman and I stand corrected.
Prove:
a) Thompson prefered the incounter to be with Hartman
b) That the 109 in question was NOT Hartman
or
c) STFU.
All of which is a mute point because as I've stated none of us were there and records do not reflect that was Hartman.Further more there's even a belief that the story may not even be true at all,only folklore,of which many heros have been born of.
So why post in this thread in the first place?
JB12
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lol. Same thing happens anytime someone posts the story of Lowell (P-38) almost killing Galland ("long nosed" 190) in a dogfight
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You think that I'm a punk and yet you dont even know me or my military history or anything,I just stood on the opposite side of the fence from you and you took it as a personal insult.It is'nt I who needs to prove anything.They were both great pilots.It's nothing against either one to make a comment regarding the other.You just can't stand your ground without a personal attack.
JB12
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I didn't say you were the punk. You got a guilty conscience?
As for personal attacks, yes anyone who calls a soldier a lair without concrete proof will hear from me.
REREAD THIS OBJECTIVELY:
"I would think that Thompson would've rathered it to be Hartman other wise he was outflown by a rookie 109 pileit.
Of course he was probably making it up to impress his squadiies and didnt realize the all knowing AH2 fantics would know the difference,but we do."
I'm done with the "discussion". You will obviously never 'get it'. Shame really after having it explained to you in such detail. Oh well, I tried.
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Originally posted by DipStick
I didn't say you were the punk. You got a guilty conscience?
As for personal attacks, yes anyone who calls a soldier a lair without concrete proof will hear from me.
REREAD THIS OBJECTIVELY:
"I would think that Thompson would've rathered it to be Hartman other wise he was outflown by a rookie 109 pileit.
Of course he was probably making it up to impress his squadiies and didnt realize the all knowing AH2 fantics would know the difference,but we do."
I'm done with the "discussion". You will obviously never 'get it'. Shame really after having it explained to you in such detail. Oh well, I tried.
<> Dipstick. He IS a punk.
Karaya
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LMAO!
what a weak bellybutton attempt at a put down ,and you even had to have your minime handpuppet back you up on it.
Get over it.I bet you believe everything you've ever read.
In no way was it an attempt to belittle Thompson,and there were a whole lot worse statements made by other BBS members.However you chose mine to start your little crusade.
See you in the vertual skies,hopefully you'll be a pony and we can reinact the scenerio.I just wish the animated pilots gave animated hand gestures.
And some how I think that you'll post again,seems to be "last word thing"
JB12
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"I would think that Thompson would've rathered it to be Hartman other wise he was outflown by a rookie 109 pileit."
[/B]
Sarcasm right?
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There were other good 109 Pilots than Hartman, and although he is the top scorer, he was probably not the best duelist.
Best deflection shooter is told to have been Rall, and the best stuntpilot Marseille.....
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Originally posted by Scrap
Perfect account of the P51 runstang in action.
OMG!! I knew some weenie was going toruin a good thing!
GReat story... I bet the smell in his cockpit wasn't from an oil leak! HEHEHE
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Originally posted by JB12
I would think that Thompson would've rathered it to be Hartman other wise he was outflown by a rookie 109 pileit.
Of course he was probably making it up to impress his squadiies and didnt realize the all knowing AH2 fantics would know the difference,but we do.Because as everyone knows the 109 will own the pony,unless it dives.
JB12
LOL!! Get a clue! First: A "rookie" would not have had a 200 painted on his tail. Second: 109 would not own a P-51. Get out of your fantasy filled "JB" world and realize the 109 was outclassed by the P-51B, C, and D in all but initail excelleration and climb.
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Originally posted by Angus
There were other good 109 Pilots than Hartman, and although he is the top scorer, he was probably not the best duelist.
Best deflection shooter is told to have been Rall, and the best stuntpilot Marseille.....
The BEST MARKSMAN was by far Maresille what somthing like 7 rounds per kill
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Marseille may have gotten out of it with the fewest shots pro kill, but it was his nice setup that allowed it.
Most of the hits were at VERY close range with rather little deflection.
Rall is told to have been the ultimate wild shooter, - deflection shooting under G with the enemy below the nose.
Of course, Rall modestly points at Marseille as the best shot...
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Hartmann's career is well documented.
He had over 200 kill in Mar '44 (10 kills on 2 Mar '44 / 202 kills total). He had 300 kills as of Aug '44.
Whoever Thompson 'fought' (if he even fought anyone) it wasn't Hartmann.
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Originally posted by Angus
Marseille may have gotten out of it with the fewest shots pro kill, but it was his nice setup that allowed it.
Most of the hits were at VERY close range with rather little deflection.
Rall is told to have been the ultimate wild shooter, - deflection shooting under G with the enemy below the nose.
Of course, Rall modestly points at Marseille as the best shot...
I am packing for a move so I can't get the book and page number for you but.......
Mike Spick after interviewing one of Marisells' wingmen recounted the day when he returned from a sortie and excliamed "I figured it out" He then went on to describe how he made his DEFFLECTION SHOTS somthing like when the taget plane dipped BELOW the spinner at this point fire then climb and how this wingman witnessed amny time when Mariselles walked the bullets from spinner to tail.
I think that makes him awsome ! and it is sad the way he died.
Just imagine the KILL record had not his Franz caught fire from an oil leak.
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It was a 109G. His first ride in the G I think.
I have a chapter on Marseilles, and I met Rall eye to eye.
Is there a book on Marseilles?
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lol silly Americano verteran makes up such a story, as if he would survive a fight against Hartmann the uberpilot. :-)
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Well, mmmm, if you look at K/D stats of the allied novices you might find their rate quite good considering that many of their best scored almost every single kill well over enemy territory.
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lol silly Americano verteran makes up such a story, as if he would survive a fight against Hartmann the uberpilot. :-)
"Experten" who survived through thousands of missions through many years, with hundreds of kills, may be shot down by a clandestine rookie who just felt lucky that day.
That's what we call "War".
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Rudorffer got shot down 17 times.
Rall got shot down 8 times.
Hartmann had to hit the silk/ground like 2 times, but NEVER lost a wingman, - which is impressive.
None of the German top guns had THOUSANDS of missions. Something more like 1000 to 1500 hrs.
Pat Pattle had 50 killes, - therefrom many in a biplane. He got shot down once AFAIK.
Johnny Johnsson did not get shot down.
My old friend T.E.Jonsson had some 1200 hrs in WW2, with mere 9 kills. He most likely never even saw as many enemy aircraft as Hartmann shot down. He did not get shot down. He fought on as a cargo pilot in the Nigerian/Biafra crisis (60's), and did get shot up badly in his last mission, although he got through it unscratced, - 400+ missions in a freighter over enemy territory, getting shot at by flak and intercepted with Migs.
So, who is the best of all aces? I don't know. There were many good, that's all.
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Originally posted by Angus
None of the German top guns had THOUSANDS of missions. Something more like 1000 to 1500 hrs.
DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hartman flew 1,425 COMBAT sorties not including training and ferry flights.
Was in 800 dogfights!
Suffered 13 equipment failures
preffered to ride his plane into 12 crash landings
he BIALED out only 1 time over Romania
He had 352 CONFIRMED Kills he was quted as saying there were a few others that he hit but was to busy to follow.
He was also a great marksman having shot down a plane with 1 cannon round!
So unless every flight lasted only 1 hour (flying over the vast expanse of Russia) I am sure he had WAYYYYY more then 1400 hours of FLIGHT time!!
Ditto
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Hartmann actually crashed a stuka on takeoff I belive before his first kill occured.
His first dogfight was with his wingman (superior officer) which Hartmann misidentified.
And a typical combat sortie was about 1 hour, - hard to get it to even 2 in a 109.
1425 missions is very much, - even for a German ace. But last time I checked, 1425 is not THOUSANDS :D