Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on September 17, 2005, 07:49:18 PM
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Astounding carreer
Hans Joachim Marseille
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html)
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Much of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware.
Facts are that Marseille is still acknowledged as among the best marksmen in the Luftwaffe. The Germans were very meticulous in filing combat reports with all relevant data to include time of battle, area of operation, opposition encountered, as well as an in-depth armorers report. At the end of a mission, the armorers would count the number of bullets and cannon shells expended during the fight. Marseille would often average an astonishing 15 bullets required per victory, and this with a combat resulting in his downing of several allied aircraft. No other German pilot was close to Marseille in this area"
"On 15 September, 1942, for example, Marseille destroyed 7 Australian fighter aircraft within an eleven minute period and on 17 June, 1942, Marseille destroyed six aircraft within a seven minute period. The table below illustrates the quickness of many of Marseille's multiple kills.
A Sample of Multiple Kill Sorties Achieved by Marseille
Victories Date Times of Victories
88 thru 91 15 Jun 42 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905
92 thru 95 16 Jun 42 1902, 1910, 1911, 1913
96 thru 101 17 Jun 42 1202, 1204, 1205, 1208, 1209, 1212
105 thru 108 01 Sep 42 0828, 0830, 0833, 0839*
109 thru 116 01 Sep 42 1055, 1056, 1058, 1059, 1101, 1102,
1103, 1105*
117 thru 121 01 Sep 42 1846, 1847, 1848, 1849, 1853*
127 thru 132 03 Sep 42 0820, 0823, 0829, 1608, 1610, c.1611
137 thru 140 06 Sep 42 1803, 1813, 1814, 1820
145 thru 151 15 Sep 42 1751, 1753, 1755, 1757, 1759, 1800,
1802
152 thru 158 26 Sep 42 0910, 0913, 0915, unk, 1656, 1659,
1715
* Indicates a total of 17 aircraft shot
down on this day.
Marseille's ingenious tactics were made successful because of his unique and masterful flying abilities. Other pilots who tried to emulate Marseille, but failed to master their own aircraft, were not as successful. It is interesting to note that two of the other most successful German pilots in the desert also used Marseille's tactics to achieve many their victories. Still many Allied historians refuse to believe that Marseille was as successful and deadly as the Germans claim. Keep in mind that during the Marianas Turkey Shoot, on June 19, 1944, US Navy pilot David McCambell shot down 7 Japanese aircraft on a single sortie, and another 9 on 24 October, 1944. Major William Shomo was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for downing 7 Japanese aircraft in a single sortie on 11 January, 1945. Many pilots on both sides of the war were credited with multiple kills on single sorties. Marseille just happened to make a deadly habit of it.
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He certainly shot down more wesrern pilots than LW ace.
Hartmann shouldnt be discounted tho, all but a handfull of his 352 kills came AFTER mid 1943 whenn the Russian airforce was quite a threat.
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I am assuming this is a response to the post involving U.S. ftr pilots....men are men people are people...anyone is capable of these feats no matter the nation..Germans had great pilots due to training..experience...and technology...when they lost all of these things they became mortals as the allies were when they entered the war...allies whopped on em just as they themselves were beat down initially.
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AL GORE was best fighter pilot he invented dogfighting.
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Erich Hartmann.
Karaya
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Originally posted by jaxxo
I am assuming this is a response to the post involving U.S. ftr pilots....men are men people are people...anyone is capable of these feats no matter the nation..Germans had great pilots due to training..experience...and technology...when they lost all of these things they became mortals as the allies were when they entered the war...allies whopped on em just as they themselves were beat down initially.
No actually I posted this because I found it while looking at sites on 109Fs.
Allies whooped on em because of the same way countries get whooped on in the game.
Numbers
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
No actually I posted this because I found it while looking at sites on 109Fs.
Allies whooped on em because of the same way countries get whooped on in the game.
Numbers
That's incredibly insulting to allied fighter pilots and stupid
beyond belief as well.
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I think Ken Sparks woulda been one of the best had they left him in theater....
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This whole thread is subjective and rife with bitterness...
There is no real answer, as there are plenty of factors including luck.
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Originally posted by Rino
That's incredibly insulting to allied fighter pilots and stupid
beyond belief as well.
But it is true, at least in the general sense of the war. The germans were outnumbered heavily in men and material by fighing against uk, ussr and the usa.
The massive material advantages of the allies takes nothing away from or insults the bravery or skill of allied fighting men but discounting the enormous impact of that advantage on thye course of the war it is equally insulting to history.
The material advantages of the alles allowed them to field many more and better trained average pilots late in the war, both are results of material advantages.
Imagine how the normandy landings would have gone if more than 2 LW fighters attacked the beaches.
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GRUNHERZ,
But that isn't the implication of his phrasing. The implication is that the Allied fighter pilots were simply inferior, untermencsh even, and they they would have been helpless in reversed situations.
Who is to say what Bong, Tuck, Gabreski, Malan, McCampbell, Beurling, Preddy or Pattle would have done if they'd been in the position of a Hartman, Juutilainen, Nishizawa or Rall.
His implication was that those Allied aces only had any success at all because they had the massive numbers on their side and that simply is not true.
Johnnie Johnson pointed out to one such critic that he didn't see that many enemy aircraft through the whole war so he could hardly be expected to post a number like the top German aces and to expect such is unreasonable. That isn't saying Johnson wasn't extremely deadly in the air, just that he never had the comparitive opportunity to use that lethality.
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CC, if thats what he means then I disagree with that point of view as well, Karnak.
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Some of you people are unbeleiveable
I will respond to these fabricated insinuations of what I ment by what I said.
But I will do it tomorrow.
Right now Im gonna go and chuckle to myself over this and what some of you wrote as I go to bed.
But those who would put hidden meanings to my words consider this.
In the MA if one country steamrolls another country due to numbers. Does that take anything away from the good pilots of the winning country?
Does numerical advantage make them any less good then they would have been had the numbers been equal?
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comparing allied and LW pilot kills is pointless. As said above LW pilot was guarentied to find allied planes when he took off - mostly since it was interception missions and they were directed to the enemy, not flying randomly till they came uppon them.
Numerical advantage is different in RL than in the game. There could be hundreds of planes in the air but battles are still a few vs a few. You have to be close to an enemy in order to ID him and engage. In AH once a single enemy is taking off and appears on dar, all planes the sector are racing each other to kill it - because they KNOW he's there and the tag makes friend-foe ID very easy.
check out Johnson's kills per sortie in which he saw the enemy. I don't have the numbers but I remember it was impressive. Most of the allied "ace in one" sorties were in situations where the enemy had the numbers.
Bozon
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Marseille was a good pilot but his success related directly to the his gunnery skills and the situation he faced in NA.
Marseille basically preferred to fly alone. He would have his wingman stay out and away while he attacked alone. He claimed that in the desert with the clear skies and long range visibility that it was easier for a lone attacker to jump a large formation and caused havoc and confusion, hitting. He said that larger fromation were much more easily spotted then lone fighters. With hard maneuvering and fast close bursts of fire he was able to hit, kill and get away while the flight he attacked was thrown in panic.
He was less successful early on and it have been curious to see how he performed over WETO late in the war when JG27 was flying Reich defense.
A curious thing about JG27 in NA is they mostly went after fighters. Rarely did they go after bombers or low flying ground attack aircraft.
There were plenty of great pilots on all sides during the war. The LW and Axis lost, despite however "great" some of their pilots.
If you look at LW pilots like Willi Reschke, he flew about 48 combat missions and was shot down 8 times.
Then compare that to some one like Adi Glunz, he flew a total of 574 missions, including 238 with enemy contact, in achieving 71 victories (with a possible 15 more unconfirmed) mostly flying in the west. He was never shot down or damaged in enemy combat.
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All of this stuff is relative.
If the USAAF or other countries also had pilots flying for 4~5 years, would the "aces" we know even survive the war?
Who's to say that guys like Bong, Gabreski, Johnson wouldn't die off after a few years, and ultimately some previously unknown guy would emerge, surviving long war years, with his kills in the hundreds like the LW?
That being said, ultimately, IMO no matter how seemingly great the prowess those that died in combat can't really be used as meaningful comparisons in these sorts of discussions.
If there's anything great about Hartmann, I think it's not the 352 kills, but the fact that he flew so much and still survived.
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For me this guy was the epitomy of Britain during the war.
The guy lost both legs during a "show off" and was consigned to the scrap heap.
He battled through his own demons to walk again with the aid of tin legs.
When war broke out he fought the Ministry Of Defence who said that although he was capable of flying he wasn't fit to do so.
He challenged them and won, he flew up the ranks becoming an "ace" on way, took a rag tag bunch of Canadians who had evacuated from Dunkirk, groomed them into what was to become a famous part of the "Duxford Wing". A tactic he perfected to always have fighter squadrons airborne and not on ground. He was sick of engaging bombers and fighters on the climb.
He was shot down and captured and to the best of knowledge escaped 3 times, once even after having his legs removed as a precaution!
He finally saw out the rest of the war in Colditz.
There is a famous picture of him sat in a 109, Adolf Galland a pre-war friend, on hearing of his capture, invited him to dinner at the chateaux he was frequenting, then let him see inside the 109. It shows him in the cockpit with Galland pointing out dials etc.
The funny thing is, on the ground is another german office, luger drawn, just in case!!
His character and determination had preceded him!
He led the VE day fly over in London and I think finally attained the rank of Wing Commander.
A true "FIGHTER pilot"
Smiggs
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The Nazi Reich was built on racist dogma of the worst sort. The creed of the uber mensch was no joke. Given the all-pervasive nature of Nazi propaganda both before and during the war, an objective military historian would find Luftwaffe combat kill claims to be extremely suspect.
British pilots in North Africa were highly trained flyers, fully on a par with the Germans. Given the extremely light combat load of the ME-109F, the 17 kill a day claims by Marseille would only have been possible if his well-trained victims flew straight and level while he aimed and shot to his heart's content.
Despite the claims of the 109F site mentioned, British records simply do not agree with some of his claims. Losses did occur on that day, but included fewer aircraft than Marseilles claimed, and included aircraft types that he did NOT claim.
Japanese combat claims were just as dubious. Japanese fighter pilots often claimed kills that were an order of magnitude greater than actual American losses.
Never read Axis combat claims without taking into consideration the nature of the regimes that produced them.
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Never read Axis combat claims without taking into consideration the nature of the regimes that produced them.
Okay.
Since Axis soliders are lying tards, let's halve his 158 kill claims.
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That's still 79 kills.
Kozedub comes close.
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Thought the topic of this thread was "Possibly the best pilot of the war?".
Why then has it again descended into yet another claim v counter claim?
"My Dad is bigger than your Dad" or "You're a liar", "No you're the liar".
"He started it first", "No I didn't", "Yes you did"............and so on.............
Oh and not forgetting the half-wits who will flame me for stating this too.
The next logical step will be that personal insults will follow.
Smiggs.
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The Axis lost because the Allies beat them.:aok
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Okay.
Since Axis soliders are lying tards, let's halve his 158 kill claims.
...
That's still 79 kills.
Kozedub comes close.
Kweassa I don't think he was talking about the Soliders or Airmen. I took it as the Political machine.
Crims
479th Raiders FG
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Originally posted by Shuckins
The Nazi Reich was built on racist dogma of the worst sort. The creed of the uber mensch was no joke. Given the all-pervasive nature of Nazi propaganda both before and during the war, an objective military historian would find Luftwaffe combat kill claims to be extremely suspect.
British pilots in North Africa were highly trained flyers, fully on a par with the Germans. Given the extremely light combat load of the ME-109F, the 17 kill a day claims by Marseille would only have been possible if his well-trained victims flew straight and level while he aimed and shot to his heart's content.
Despite the claims of the 109F site mentioned, British records simply do not agree with some of his claims. Losses did occur on that day, but included fewer aircraft than Marseilles claimed, and included aircraft types that he did NOT claim.
Japanese combat claims were just as dubious. Japanese fighter pilots often claimed kills that were an order of magnitude greater than actual American losses.
Never read Axis combat claims without taking into consideration the nature of the regimes that produced them.
Also keep in mind again that Mersaille was intercepting RAF fighter bombers doing their job. These were P40s and Hurricanes down low with him having the advantage in terms of air combat.
The Desert Air Force was very tactically oriented in it's role.
Nonetheless, the 'who is the best" argument is a stupid one. Until we line them all up in duplicate airplanes fighting each fight in identical conditions and see who comes out at the end, we'll never know.
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Its funny to see the exteremes of both arguments:
1) Allies are no skill horde dweebs
2) LW are lying nazis
I think the truth is that the top LW pilots saw more combat actian than just about anybody, saw more enemies and shot more down. The allied pilots had less of this opportunity to kill because they flew tours and rotated back home to train new pilots and rest up, which was something they could afford to do because of men and material advantages of the allied side - which is why, in general the allies won the war. The LW guys hads to keep fighting. The remarkable thging is how many of them did survive for a long time and kept getting kill after kill.
So clearly the LW produced the most experienced and succesful combat pilots in the history of the world, but the reason they did this was the same reason they lost the war in thev long run.
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Well, personally, I basically put all these guys at the top of the top with the Axis guys a bit higher simply due to forced experience.
They were all extremely lethal pilots and nationality or government, nor even personal beliefs, really mean jack when just talking about their skill.
For the vast majority of enemy pilots meeting one of these guys in the air was an extremely bad thing and it didn't matter if your were Japanese encountering Bong or American encountering Nishizawa, German encountering Kozedub or Russian encountering Hartman, Commonwealth encountering Marseille or German/Italian encountering Buerling. All of these are very bad things for the average pilot.
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Hmmm....
" It seemed we were always outnumbered. We had more fighters than they did, but what mattered was how many they could put up in one area. They would concentrate in huge numbers, by the hundreds at times."
Bud Anderson.
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You should read the rest of his book were he also mentions numerous missions that resulted in abosolutely no contact with the enemy.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Nomak
Hmmm....
" It seemed we were always outnumbered. We had more fighters than they did, but what mattered was how many they could put up in one area. They would concentrate in huge numbers, by the hundreds at times."
Bud Anderson.
And that is very telling how the Germans top aces put up those huge numbers.
A) They were guaranteed to encounter the enemy.
B) They concentrated their numbers so that they had the nuemerical advantage locally, allowing them to fight effectively without being overwhelmed.
What does this mean from an Allied perspective? It means that you would fly mission after mission and not see enemy aircraft. If you did encounter them it would be in a situation in which you did not automatically have overwhelming numbers.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You should read the rest of his book were he also mentions numerous missions that resulted in abosolutely no contact with the enemy.
ack-ack
Please explain how your statement pertains in any way to teh discussion at hand or the comment that I made.
Or is this just the typical Ack Ack comment where you try to seem witty and intelligent then duck out of the thread whenever anyone actually comments on your post?
The point was when the allies were actually confronted with combat..... they were many times outnumberd. How do sorties where no nme contact was made pertain what so ever?
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Wow glad you all think a Man was best pilot in ww2. Bet alot of russian woman laugh their ***'s off. Pretty sure You wouldv'e had nightwitches in top line fighters instead of PE-2 and they wouldv'e been unstopable. Some of these ladies had 20 plus kills of 109 190's alone not counting bombers...............
To say who's the best pilot in ww2 will never be known.... To many variables to really get who was best. Bravest has to go To brits IN MY OPINON. Alot of german aces became aces waiting for damaged bombers to fall out formations..........
God only knows how many of these guys in ww2 had two accounts to pad scores..................:)
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Hartmann used to drag british ftrs across the channel where they would be promptly bounced by a horde of trainee's waiting at altitude.many early british tactics were revised and the brits turned the tide (the famous "row of idiots" formation dubbed by german ftrs did not last very long)..whos the ju87 driver who had like 500 ground kills..that was pretty impressive
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Originally posted by Smiggyy
For me this guy was the epitomy of Britain during the war.
The guy lost both legs during a "show off" and was consigned to the scrap heap.
He battled through his own demons to walk again with the aid of tin legs.
When war broke out he fought the Ministry Of Defence who said that although he was capable of flying he wasn't fit to do so.
He challenged them and won, he flew up the ranks becoming an "ace" on way, took a rag tag bunch of Canadians who had evacuated from Dunkirk, groomed them into what was to become a famous part of the "Duxford Wing". A tactic he perfected to always have fighter squadrons airborne and not on ground. He was sick of engaging bombers and fighters on the climb.
He was shot down and captured and to the best of knowledge escaped 3 times, once even after having his legs removed as a precaution!
He finally saw out the rest of the war in Colditz.
There is a famous picture of him sat in a 109, Adolf Galland a pre-war friend, on hearing of his capture, invited him to dinner at the chateaux he was frequenting, then let him see inside the 109. It shows him in the cockpit with Galland pointing out dials etc.
The funny thing is, on the ground is another german office, luger drawn, just in case!!
His character and determination had preceded him!
He led the VE day fly over in London and I think finally attained the rank of Wing Commander.
A true "FIGHTER pilot"
Smiggs
Without the Polish Squadrons the RAF might have folded.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Nomak
Please explain how your statement pertains in any way to teh discussion at hand or the comment that I made.
Because it was a piss poor example of a counter point. Your assertion by that quote is an attempt to counter the argument by some Allied fans that the Allies did not enjoy a numerical advantage and all their kills were a result of better flying and abilities. It's rather selective and does not paint the whole picture. That's why I suggested you finish reading his book because you'll find a better example on his last mission where the LW was able to muster what turned out to be the largest force they could field but still enountered an outnumbering Allied force.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by jaxxo
Hartmann used to drag british ftrs across the channel where they would be promptly bounced by a horde of trainee's waiting at altitude.many early british tactics were revised and the brits turned the tide (the famous "row of idiots" formation dubbed by german ftrs did not last very long)..whos the ju87 driver who had like 500 ground kills..that was pretty impressive
Hans Ulrich Rudel
Knights Cross of the Iron Cross
with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.
Mike
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Because it was a piss poor example of a counter point. Your assertion by that quote is an attempt to counter the argument by some Allied fans that the Allies did not enjoy a numerical advantage and all their kills were a result of better flying and abilities. It's rather selective and does not paint the whole picture.
ack-ack
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Had he lived longer; I am sure he would have been right up there
with Eric Hartmann.
Mike
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Because it was a piss poor example of a counter point. Your assertion by that quote is an attempt to counter the argument by some Allied fans that the Allies did not enjoy a numerical advantage and all their kills were a result of better flying and abilities. It's rather selective and does not paint the whole picture. That's why I suggested you finish reading his book because you'll find a better example on his last mission where the LW was able to muster what turned out to be the largest force they could field but still enountered an outnumbering Allied force.
ack-ack
Are you talking about the huge fighter sweep they made on New Year's Day 1945?
Mike
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Because it was a piss poor example of a counter point. Your assertion by that quote is an attempt to counter the argument by some Allied fans that the Allies did not enjoy a numerical advantage and all their kills were a result of better flying and abilities. It's rather selective and does not paint the whole picture. That's why I suggested you finish reading his book because you'll find a better example on his last mission where the LW was able to muster what turned out to be the largest force they could field but still enountered an outnumbering Allied force.
ack-ack
Well Ack Ack I certainly give you pionts for at least hanging out and making a counter point ;)
"Piss poor example" I of course think not. I by no means was trying to "paint the whole picture" in that quote.
What I was trying to accomplish however was to shoot holes in the broad and generalized statements made by many LuftWeenies on this and many other boards that the "Allies whooped on em because of the same way countries get whooped on in the game. Numbers." Which is of course in many instances total nonsense.
So your example is "better" because it shows a different set of circumstances than mine? Whatever.
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Hartmann never flew against the Brits "over the channel".
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its funny to see the exteremes of both arguments:
1) Allies are no skill horde dweebs
2) LW are lying nazis
I think the truth is that the top LW pilots saw more combat actian than just about anybody, saw more enemies and shot more down. The allied pilots had less of this opportunity to kill because they flew tours and rotated back home to train new pilots and rest up, which was something they could afford to do because of men and material advantages of the allied side - which is why, in general the allies won the war. The LW guys hads to keep fighting. The remarkable thging is how many of them did survive for a long time and kept getting kill after kill.
So clearly the LW produced the most experienced and succesful combat pilots in the history of the world, but the reason they did this was the same reason they lost the war in thev long run.
there ya go.
And just like the MA. You can have a situation where one side has clear numerical advantage yet you will see fairly even sided furballs here and there. but the side with the lessor numbers can only put up so many planes to cover so many areas leaving the rest of the numberically superiour side to pretty much be able to do as it pleases.
So yes, you will have situations where even when one side has a numerical disadvantage they can have an advantage in smaller local areas but not all there areas that need to be covered.
Unlike the Ma The Germans could not readily replace lost pilots at the same rate the allies could because they had superior numbers. And because of such superiour nmbers the allies were able to take the time to better train their pilots then the germans could
Eventually attrition took its toll.
Now to adress some things.
I never said the Allied pilots werent any good so how my statement could be "insulting to allied pilots" is beyond me.
Not that I would care if they were insulted by my statement.
Surely both sides had some very good pilots. Both sides probably had some pretty poor ones also
But to claim one sides aces overall were better then another sides aces is rediculous. I was talking about one specific pilot. Not the german airforce as a whole. Now if I had said "Germany had the best pilots of the war" Then I could understand how some would be inclined to dissagree. But thats not what I said.
As for german record keeping
We all know how lax the germans were in their record keeping.
(http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/graphics/hs_home_graphic02.jpg)
After all they didnt keep accurate records of anything that might make them look bad now did they?
http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=photos&ke=87 (http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=photos&ke=87) (http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/photos/gross-rosen2+large.jpg)
So records they kept are hardly to be belived.;)
And we all know that history is written by the victors and every record they keep is always 110% accurate and cant possibly be wrong LOL
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ok it wasnt Hartmann.. i forgot who it was..the name isnt the point its the tactics i found interesting..
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British pilots in North Africa were highly trained fliers, fully on a par with the Germans. Given the extremely light combat load of the ME-109F, the 17 kill a day claims by Marseille would only have been possible if his well-trained victims flew straight and level while he aimed and shot to his heart's content.
You really don't what you are talking about. I suggest you pick up a copy of 'Fighters over the Desert' by Shores and Ring. Its not a cheap book or easy to come by but its the definitive work on this subject.
Marseille's first mission that day:
4 enemy fighters claimed shot down (at 0926, 0928, 0935, and 0938 hrs) with 80 cannon shells and 240 machine-gun rounds.
According to Shores/Ring, these were the pilots in the aircraft which Marseille claimed shot down:
Lt Bailey (1 SAAF sqn) force-landed his Hurricane
Maj Metelerkamp (1 SAAF sqn) was injured and had his Hurricane badly shot up
F/O Matthews (238 sqn) had his Hurricane shot down
P/O Bradley-Smith (601 sqn) had his Spitfire shot down.
Marseille's second mission that day:
8 enemy fighters ("P-40s") claimed shot down( at 1155, 1156, 1158, 1159, 1201, 1202, 1203, and 1205 hrs). In addition to Marseille's claims, Lt Remmer claimed one P-40 on the same mission.
According to Shores/Ring, six British fighters were shot down during an escort mission for bombers.
Marseille's third mission that day:
5 enemy fighters claimed shot down (at 1847, 1848, 1849, 1850, and 1853 hrs). In addition to Marseille's claims, four enemy fighters were claimed shot down by other German pilots on the same mission.
According to Shores/Ring, five Hurricanes of 213 sqn and one Hurricane of 208 sqn that were shot down approximately at the same time probably are identical with at least some of the German claims on that mission.
Shores and Ring list a number of additional Allied fighters lost in combat in Egypt on 1 September 1942 - although it has not been possible to verify the exact time (hour & minute):
Sgt. Sowerby, 3 RAAF sqn, was shot down
5 SAAF sqn had four of its fighters shot down
2 SAAF sqn and 64 U.S. sqn lost three P-40s on one mission
According to Shores/Ring, some of these (at least one of 5 SAAF sqn's losses) are among the six fighters which were shot down when they escorted bombers and - probably - were encountered by Marseille on his second mission on 1 September 1942.
Due to Shores/Ring, the official Allied losses in North Africa on 1 September 1942 amount to 22 aircraft (9 Hurricanes, 4 Kittyhawks, 4 Tomahawks, 2 Spitfires, 1 U.S. Warhawk, and 2 Beaufighters).
But what does it really matter if Marseille only got 14 that day or if his actual kill total was 120 rather then 158. His claims were filed based on fact not on Nazi propaganda.
There were folks in JG27 that out and out lied about their kills. One Rotte of 4 was spotted firing their guns in the desert by a LW recce aircraft. This group when they returned to base later filed kill claims. Among this group was Franz Stigler. The group of 4 was broken up and sent to separate units.
But there are plenty of 'questionable' claims and stories that get told over and over again from all sides.
Look at the Thompson/Hartmann thread.
Everyone has heard about the June 26, 1943 event where Lt. Robert S. Johnson is bounced by FW-190s and is almost shot down and then another FW-190s "escorts" him to the French coast.
In Roger Freeman's book on the 56th FG "Wolfpack Warriors" Freeman has a statement from Gerald Johnson where he claims that he shot the FW-190 from R.S. Johnson's tail and that his claim of being escorted by the 190 was an exaggeration of what really happened.
From times and location Gerald Johnson was convinced that the FW190 he shot down was that which shot up his namesake's P-47. He heard Bob's story and said nothing, although he thought that in the excitement Bob had let his imagination run away with him concerning the chivalrous German pilot. No such incident was reported from the German side.
Guppy
Also keep in mind again that Mersaille was intercepting RAF fighter bombers doing their job. These were P40s and Hurricanes down low with him having the advantage in terms of air combat.
Marseille was more likely to attack the escort or the cap rather then go after bombers or fighter bombers. He was a lone wolf that went for kills. Most his combats were fought with him with a clear advantage.
The Desert Air Force was very tactically oriented in it's role.
Yes they were and thats why even pilot as skilled as Marseille may have been his achievements and kill count did very little to effect the flow of battle.
As I said above there are plenty of 'great' pilots and 'fighters' on all sides. Imagine Robert S. Johnson's kill count had he flown 800 combat missions in a target rich enviroment.
Was Marseille the 'best'? I doubt it, but who is to say?
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I concur on that 100%
The reading I have done on that very subject backs that up.
They fought with something we, (RAF), initially didn't possess.
Pure and utter hatred for our foes.
Most Hurri's or Spits had only about 30/40 secs of continuous MG fire. Most pilots would loose a 5/10 second burst, draw smoke then move to the next. These guys would chase a bomber and empty the whole lot and/or chase it down to make doubly sure it went down and stayed down.
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A Question of Honor
The Kosciuszko Squadron:
Forgotten Heroes of World War II
by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud
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Didn't omit them delibarately from my initial entry, was just concentrating on Douglas Bader as an individual.
Smiggs.
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I think that no one can say that pilot X was the best of the war... what I can say is that, though admiring pilots who fought the war, regardless their nationality, I like Marseille a bit more than the others... I think he was an amazing fighter pilot, and I really envy is firing skills :p maybe he was the best shooter of the war.
But I had to choose a pilot for his overall skills, not only as a flyer and a shooter, I'd like to be Moelders or Malan: great pilots and fine tacticians.
Just a couple of things:
Kweassa:
those that died in combat can't really be used as meaningful comparisons in these sorts of discussions.
Are you referring to Marseille, too? Actually, he died in a flight incident, not in combat.
Smiggyy:
Most Hurri's or Spits had only about 30/40 secs of continuous MG fire.
It seems too much to me: IIRC, Hurry I & Spit I had no more than 15, maybe 20 seconds of continuous fire.
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Its obvious Marseille, was unplugging, and plugging in his cable modem to get that many kills.
balsy
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Originally posted by Balsy
Its obvious Marseille, was unplugging, and plugging in his cable modem to get that many kills.
balsy
lmao :rofl :lol
Crims
479th Raiders FG
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Originally posted by Smiggyy
I concur on that 100%
The reading I have done on that very subject backs that up.
They fought with something we, (RAF), initially didn't possess.
Pure and utter hatred for our foes.
Most Hurri's or Spits had only about 30/40 secs of continuous MG fire. Most pilots would loose a 5/10 second burst, draw smoke then move to the next. These guys would chase a bomber and empty the whole lot and/or chase it down to make doubly sure it went down and stayed down.
--------------------------
A Question of Honor
The Kosciuszko Squadron:
Forgotten Heroes of World War II
by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud
--------------------------
Didn't omit them delibarately from my initial entry, was just concentrating on Douglas Bader as an individual.
Smiggs.
No harm, no foul mate. I got that book last Xmas from my brother. It was weird reading it (I am of Polish Descent). I could feel the emotion in their flying, but reading about them getting screwed over by Roosevelt and Churchill drove me to anger. It was still one of the best books on ANY subject of WWII that I have ever read.
<>
Karaya
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
I think that no one can say that pilot X was the best of the war... what I can say is that, though admiring pilots who fought the war, regardless their nationality, I like Marseille a bit more than the others... I think he was an amazing fighter pilot, and I really envy is firing skills :p maybe he was the best shooter of the war.
But I had to choose a pilot for his overall skills, not only as a flyer and a shooter, I'd like to be Moelders or Malan: great pilots and fine tacticians.
Just a couple of things:
Kweassa:
Are you referring to Marseille, too? Actually, he died in a flight incident, not in combat.
Smiggyy:
It seems too much to me: IIRC, Hurry I & Spit I had no more than 15, maybe 20 seconds of continuous fire.
30/40 sounds more accurate.
Karaya
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Masherbrum, I checked some source I had at my disposal and looked for some confirmations on the web ( (http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/hurricane.htm) for the Hurricane, (http://www.aviation-history.com/supermarine/spitfire.html) for the Spitfire): the Spit had 300 rounds per weapon, the Hurry 333.
The fact is confirmed by AH: if you set the ammo multiplier to 1, the numbers are exactly the ones above, and you can test that this gives a continuous firiring time of 18 seconds for the Spit and 20 for the Hurry. :)
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Sailor Malan would count as one of the best, if not THE best.
Funny habit he had though, sending LW planes home full of holes rather than flaming them. He said it was to break their nerves....
Also known for letting others have the kill.
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Indeed, odd and quite creepy habit he had... and he did the same thing with Moelders, on July 28th, 1940... one of the few ace vs. ace engagements that I know of.... amazingly enough between two of my favourite pilots...
I read some brief account of that duel, I'd like to know more about it... any suggestions? :)
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Just stumbled across a little thing about Malan.
From John Keegans "The Second World War", p.102
About the BoB Pilots:
"The majority were citizens; but significant numbers were Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans (including the icy "sailor" Malan who tried to send German bombers home with a dead crew, as a warning to the rest"
I have some more on Malan, gotta go digging to find it. Anyway, given the cirkumstances (frontline interception, fighting uphill), setup (no choosing, just fight) and the armament (303's only), Malan did a hell of a job. As well as Spanking Mölders.
R.S. Tuck is another one. A dogfight with Galland ended with both loosing their wingmen and Galland darting away.
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Originally posted by Angus
Just stumbled across a little thing about Malan.
From John Keegans "The Second World War", p.102
About the BoB Pilots:
"The majority were citizens; but significant numbers were Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans (including the icy "sailor" Malan who tried to send German bombers home with a dead crew, as a warning to the rest"
I have some more on Malan, gotta go digging to find it. Anyway, given the cirkumstances (frontline interception, fighting uphill), setup (no choosing, just fight) and the armament (303's only), Malan did a hell of a job. As well as Spanking Mölders.
R.S. Tuck is another one. A dogfight with Galland ended with both loosing their wingmen and Galland darting away.
................and the Polish Squadrons.
Karaya
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The polish made up some 5% of the BoB pilots and 15% of the kills ;)