Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: KCDitto on September 18, 2005, 11:15:13 AM
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SO why after all these years and a million posts of "the G-10 is the K-4"
did HTC finally decide to build the Bf 109 K-4????????
I am not complaining by the way as I was one of the guys who wanted it and will pay perk points to fly it if is modeled well.
Thanks by the way.
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I was wondering the same thing. If the G-10 is the K in this game, what benefit is the new K design bringing with it that we didn't have before?
I mean, really, the game would benefit so much more from an M-24 Chafee tank or an amphibious Sherman. Or a P-40N. Or a truck with a 5" flak gun mounted on the back. Or mannable 88s at towns.
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Unless they were thinking of filling a gap in the late war planeset, perhaps? Or perhaps they felt the performance of the G10 (as is) is too much for the 20mm, and limiting it to the 30mm ("K-4" instead of "G-10") would balance the plane out a bit more?
There are tons of reasons that may or may not have played a point.
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My bet is that they were tired of hearing people whine for the Bf109K-4 to be added when it was already there in all but name.:p
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hee hee, good reason, as well! :P
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Well HiTech?????
any thing to add to this???
Just wondering?
I am sure I am goig to fly it and much to scuzzy's anoyance will have to change the name of the squad agina LOL
Thanks
Ditto
CO JG 301 STABSSCHWARM
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Originally posted by gofaster
I mean, really, the game would benefit so much more from an ...... an amphibious Sherman.
So you want to model sinkers in the game as well????
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Is the k4 going to have 15mm mg151's?
:D
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MG151/20s rarely were in 15mm. The MG151/20 stopped using 15mm ammo in the 109F-2, because the 15mm round just wasn't strong enough. After they switched (not sure when, but definitely by the time the F-4 cmae out) I don't think any MG151/20s used 15mm rounds ever again.
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Krusty, he was being ironic :D
I don't think nobody here would dare claim anymore that late 109's had 15mm Mg151's instead of 13mm cowl guns.
Still, in my old copy of 'Aces of Europe' the 109-K has them and even Gunther Rall claimed in a recent speech that the 109 had them...
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Krusty,
He is refering to the cowl guns. There was a mistake in a book written a long time ago, '50s or '60s if I recall, that made the mistaken claim that the Bf109K-4 had the 13mm cowl guns replaced with 15mm MG151/15s. This error was propagated into other books from there. Only by going back to original source material was the error corrected in more modern books. Some Bf109 fans persist in believing that the Bf109K-4 carried 15mm guns in the cowl positions despite there being demonstrably not enough room.
He was goading said Bf109 fans and the people who like to argue with them, aka trolling.
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Oh, I never knew about that.
Probably came from the 190A. Didn't the A6 replace 13mm cowling guns with MG151/20s?
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Not so far as I know.
It simply came from either a typo or a hard to make out comment on an original source document.
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:D
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LOL Tarmac, nice one :)
Krusty. There were to types of MG151's.
One called MG151/15 and one called MG151/20. The 15 was the 15mm heavy machine gun and the 20 was the 20mm cannon we have in AH.
Like Karnak said it is a myth (damn persistant one) that the 109 K4 used 15mm cowl guns. And the damn myth still lives on in some books together with the 30mm MK103 Hub cannon myth.
As for the FW 190 they never used 15mm guns, not in cowl or any others place.
As for the reason of changing the G10 to K4 name probarly because they wanna fill the gap in the plane set. Noone but HTC knows of any new 109's yet, maybe there won't be any. We're hoping for some late G modells though such as a G14 or a G6 AS. We'll see.
By adding the K4 they remove the G10/K4 hybrid. (There may very well have been some G10's with that engine aswell though).
As for it being perked in the MA I see no reason for that, the plane should perform like the G10 we have now but it won't have the 20mm hub cannon option.
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Well at least the MK 103mot was intended to some 109K variants at least.
BTW, what 109K we get? 1.8 or 1.98ata one ?
What will the G-10 become then?
PS : It`s odd the 109K misses it`s wheel well doors...
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We don't know what we're getting, 1.8 or 1.98ata. Only HTC knows that. My bet'd be 1.8ata and keep it free, but it may be boosted to 1.98ata and perhaps perked.
The Bf109G-10 (which in AH has always been a Bf109K-4 in all but name) is being removed from AH. I hope to see the Bf109G-14 added to the plane list as well though. From what I've read about it I could definately see myself liking the Bf109G-14.
Should the wheels on the Bf109K-4 be completely enclosed?
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Yes Karnak. The wheels should be enclosed on the K-4, but they removed it from planes in action. When making the skin i saw both variants.
I've read a remark on a book that says, that they removed them cause of dificulties on the mecanics of those doors. This seams to be due to dirt etc, what jamed the dors. This was a bad issue when one door keept open after takeoff.
airmes
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Actually it seems more likely the doors were not present on early planes. Most of the early photos w/o them come from November 1944, ie. the first batches, usually depicting JG 77.
On most later production batches you can see the wheel wells fairly regularly, besides it`s a distinctive feature of the 109K, the only one in large series with wheel well doors. They should be on the plane, otherwise it looks just the same as the 109G.
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G10 is removed K4 is added. Think we've beaten that horse to death again and again now. I've explained it 7 times today alone :D
Guessing we're getting a 1.8 ata.
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Originally posted by Karnak
We don't know what we're getting, 1.8 or 1.98ata. Only HTC knows that. My bet'd be 1.8ata and keep it free, but it may be boosted to 1.98ata and perhaps perked.
So my question is what is the current AH G-10 model rated at? 1.8ata or 1.98ata? If the current G-10 is 1.8ata, then I could see the K-4 at 1.98ata being a significant change. I would like to see an early G-10 or G-14 model with the 1.8ata rating if that is not what the G-10 is currently modeled. It would be usefull for special events and the combat theater.
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I doubt they're going to change the modeling of it. They've already got it modeled pretty good as-is. HTC is probably going to just keep it as-is (which is pretty darn good, really) and the talk was going around that we could use a gap filler between G6 and K4 (actually, some would say we could use 2 gap fillers in there, because of the speeds and the best altitudes for the 109s changed in this time period).
HTC was listening to those that proposed new spitfires, and they were probably following the discussion about 109s. So we might see a new 109 or two.
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IMHO the two best gap fillers between the G-6 (no MW50) and K-4 would be :
G-14 : basically G-6 with MW 50, produced from mid-44 onwards with a max speed of 665 kph at 5000m, and 568kph at SL. iow, it`s a good `44ish medium altitude fighter.
G-10 : Since we already have it, and as it could represent the other important 44/45 109, the G-14/AS. The performance diffo between the G-14/AS and G-10 is marginal, ie.
early G-10 : 562 at SL, 690 at 7.5km (1.75ata)
G-14/AS : 560 kph at SL, 680 at 7.5kph (1.7ata)
It speaks for the G-10 that it`s
a, already ready
b, in greater numbers, some 2600 being produced
So`d have for 44/45
G-6 : 530 SL / 640 at 6.6 km
G-14 : 568SL / 665 at 5km, above as G-6
G-10 : 562 SL / 690 at 7.5 km, much improved altitude performance over G-6
K-4 : either :
1.8ata : 595 kph SL / 712 kpt at 7.5 kph
1.98ata: 607 kph SL, / 715 kph at 6km, above that as 1.8ata,
Has MK 108 as standard and only gun
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The current 109 G10 is modelled at 1.8 ata Tracer :)
Doesn't matter much to me what we get. When flown well, after a steep learning curve, the G10 (or K4 in the future) is one of the most dangerous plane in the arena.
People don't like it because of high speed maneuverability, low speed turn rate (although it's OK) and lack of guns (Gonds take away everything the 109 stands for IMO).
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The G10 is probably the best plane not to be shot down in, but in my hands it is not that deadly. Hard to get into position for a shot.
Been flying the G6 lately because it is challenging. Not that much speed (a good point of the G10 taken away), not that much maneuverability (you can't hang with Niks or Spits for long) and hard(er) to use the guns, even the 20mm package. But you are small, and can replace energy quickly. Long WEP too. Had a few very interesting fights in it. I had to work very hard, but could win them. The joy of blowing up a La-7 with 30mm in a knife fight is wonderful ;) High speed handling is an issue, but the 109 doesn't compress as such, only the high control forces are modelled. You can trim yourself out of trouble most of the time. And don't forget it is very forgiving near the edge although it can feel twitchy.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
The current 109 G10 is modelled at 1.8 ata Tracer :)
Hmm...everybody seems to be so sure about this?
I wonder why because the current AH G-10 does around 450mph at its best alt...I got it going 449mph a while back, IIRC Karnak talked about 451mph figure...(I only roughly checked the best alt from HTC's G-10 speed chart and tried it there...).
My point is that the often found top speed figure from literature is 452mph for the K-4. This speed is usually given for the DB-605DC engined aircraft...
I'm not at home right now so can't check the AH G-10 MAP reading but I've always been under the impression that AH G-10 runs C3 fuel at 1.98...the performance most certainly indicates this.
P.S One thing that seems to be missing from the AH K-4 model is the radio antenna.
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Woops Wmaker I may be wrong. Rememberd checking i last night but didn't check in the 109. Forgot we still use man pressure there.
BTW, the 109 K4 will almost without doubt use 1.8 ata in AH. Check the screenshots on the main page. Pressure gauge goes to 1.8 ata and stop there.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
BTW, the 109 K4 will almost without doubt use 1.8 ata in AH. Check the screenshots on the main page. Pressure gauge goes to 1.8 ata and stop there.
Yep,
IIRC AH G-10 did 367mph on the deck, we'll just have to wait and see how fast the new K-4 will on the deck and on up...
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*SHOULD* be the same Wmaker. The reason I think this is because HTC has always stated that the G10 in AH is in fact a K4 but with the 20mm engine mounted cannon option.
If I understand this correct, there are no FM changes to the 109 K4 compared to the G10. Only the removal of the 20mm option and a new 3D modell (which should go for most 109's I think) and new skin.
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Originally posted by Wmaker
Hmm...everybody seems to be so sure about this?
I wonder why because the current AH G-10 does around 450mph at its best alt...I got it going 449mph a while back, IIRC Karnak talked about 451mph figure...(I only roughly checked the best alt from HTC's G-10 speed chart and tried it there...).
My point is that the often found top speed figure from literature is 452mph for the K-4. This speed is usually given for the DB-605DC engined aircraft...
I'm not at home right now so can't check the AH G-10 MAP reading but I've always been under the impression that AH G-10 runs C3 fuel at 1.98...the performance most certainly indicates this.
P.S One thing that seems to be missing from the AH K-4 model is the radio antenna.
Maximum speed was the same at either 1.8 or 1.98ata, ie. the power would remain the same at rated alt because of the supercharger limiting the altitude of extra boost below. With 1.98ata, only the perfromance below 6000-7500m was improved.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Maximum speed was the same at either 1.8 or 1.98ata, ie. the power would remain the same at rated alt because of the supercharger limiting the altitude of extra boost below. With 1.98ata, only the perfromance below 6000-7500m was improved.
Yep, of course, below the FTH...but I remembered that AH G-10 topped below that alt...probably remembered wrong...but it still doesn't explain the deck speed. I'll try to check this tomorrow...too late now.
EDIT/Ahh..checked Whels' OTD speed post anyway...just 366mph...so nothing in the FM probably changes.../EDIT
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/109g10.html
Best alt in AH2 is about 22k/26k (wep/non)