Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wilbus on September 20, 2005, 11:23:06 AM
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Thought I'd open a little discussion about this issue.
This thread is not ment to be harsh and act badly towards Cobra, however I do think that you should read more books about the P51 (preferably not propaganda books) and pherhaps other fighters. Hope I don't break any rules by this, we'll see HTC's response.
I met Cobra online in the MA and after having listened to some "The US planes are the worst in the MA" and "The P51 was the best fighter of the war but in AH anything beats it" and discussed it somewe finally went in the DA to try a few things. (On Cobras request :) )
I state that a P51, flown the right way, will beat an A6M5 any day.
Cobra states that the P51 was designed for turning and should outturn the A6M5. Also states that the P51 was the best fighter of the war and is represented in AH in a bad way. I do not agree.
I brought up wingloading in the discussion, stating that turn radius is a directly affected by wingloading. Hopefully you will have read up on wingloading in time to reading this thread Cobra as I got the impression you don't know what it is or what it does.
The film shows the discussion we have in the DA, some harsh words are dropped at times but generally "fairly" calm discussion.
There are two flights. Me in P51D and Cobra in the A6M5. We meet at 5k. Had my gunnery been better with the 50 cal (normally only use Mg151 20mm so big difference) and had I not suffered from serious nose bounces my gunnery would surely have been better.
You will see early on in the text buffer that Cobra wants me to turnfight the P51 vs a Zeke, my simple reply is "why?"
The first fight ends in a vertical HO with me on the top and Cobra is put on fire (with some harsh words dropped after).
The second fight goes on for a while, some fighting some talking and I prove my point in it by putting the P51 in a 200mph climb and then going level quickly extending away from Cobra and then coming back, from there on I totally controll the fight while Cobras zeke is left to purly defencive maneuvers. While I do not score a kill I force him to ditch after he's run out of fuel (put a hole in his fuel tank).
Cobra, you also state that the 50 cal guns in AH suck big time, in this fight I hit you with 15-20 rounds. Not nearly enough to bring down a fighter unless they hit exactly right (engine, pilot).
The 50 cal were great weapons, they are in AH aswell but you are needed to hit more then just a couple, they were not nor are not any kind of wounder weapons.
The fact that you did not have more dammage is because the AH dammage modell doesn't modell induvidual bullet holes, something needs to be shot off in order to make a difference. 20mm guns suffer just as much because of this.
Sugest anybody who agrees with my statement "The P51 was never ment to turnfight a Zeke" or don't agree with it watch the film or atleast join the discussion.
Two files for the film. Self extracting Rar archive (chose a folder and it will extract a single AH film file). This is done cause I can not upload anything greater then 2mb files at the moment.
File 1 (http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/userfiles/Wilbus/P51vsZekeDiscussion.part1.exe)
File 2 (http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/userfiles/Wilbus/P51vsZekeDiscussion.part2.rar)
I've virus checked both files and they are clean. You may get a warning before opening them though because it is an .exe file, some virus programs warn you about that.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Cobra states that the P51 was designed for turning and should outturn the A6M5.
:huh :lol
Well, I guess the P-51 will outturn a zeke ... if they are both doing 400 mph :p
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:lol dont waste time arguing with newbs! even a 2 day green horn knows not to turn a 51 with an zeke/zero.
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Seems alot of work for a dweeb who knows not of what he speaks.
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Umm, ok. I thought that one of the most basic and famous understandings to come out of WWII air combat from an American perspective was that you do not turn fight against Zeros.
Seems somebody didn't get the message. Seems this somebody also buys into propaganda a bit too much.
I really like Spitfires and Mosquitos. The best all round fighter of the war, IMHO, was the F4U. I don't realy care for F4Us. What we like doesn't have to be what we think is the best, nor does hype equal reality.
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Ok just calculated wingloading and replied but must have messed up and missed the reply before shutting down the window.
Anyway, wingloading for an empty P51D was aproximatly 148kg/square meter. Loaded was at 241kg/square meter.
Empy A6M5c was 88kg/square meter and 128kg/square meter at maximum take off weight. So even a fully loaded Zero would outturn in a P51D (empty = no fuel) in a turnfight.
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Just type in the path you want to extract the .ahf to in the Målmapp-field or press the Bläddra to browse (C:\program files\HTC\Aces High II\films for example) and click on the Installera. You need both files to extract the ahf.
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Gotta be a new, stupid noob "Cobra" cause the old Cobra (who hasn't posted on these boards for about a year and a half) was on the ball and had class.
Since this a new, stupid, clueless noob ( with a lousy attitude to boot) I personally can't see why you'd waste the time with him.
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sorry it was in swedish.
TW9, do what Spazzer said :)
If you still can't get it to work let me know and I will re-post the files without self extracting. I can't post the ahf file as I can't upload it (5mb I can only upload 2mb files).
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Originally posted by TW9
i keep getting some error message i dont understand
well you know the swedish don't understand either ?
They speak a fake language ! I swear !
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Hey TW9.
Rgr posting the files without self extracting file.
You need something to unrar them with though. Such as winrar. Sorry I can't post the AHF file because I can't upload files larger then 2mb. If you wish, I can mail you the AHF file if you either mail me at "rasmus_friluft@yahoo.se" or give me your mail :)
File 1 (http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/userfiles/Wilbus/P51vsZekeDiscussion.part1.rar)
File 2 (http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/userfiles/Wilbus/P51vsZekeDiscussion.part2.rar)
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LOL Straffo, so true
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Originally posted by Wilbus
You will see early on in the text buffer that Cobra wants me to turnfight the P51 vs a Zeke, my simple reply is "why?"
That is the key entirely. Just the other day I was trolling for buffs in a G10 at about 12k. Dot on the horizon turns out to be a 15k zeke. Neither takes the HO on the merge (refreshing :aok) and the zero reverses in the 0.2 seconds a zero can. I just continue past, wep on and climb. When I would get a little seperation, I'd reverse, cause him to turn hard while I just climbed some more. Eventually we ended up at 20k and the zero wasn't performing quite the same. One more pass to the vertical, came down, promptly missed my shot, zoomed vertical again to catch him at the top of the his loop with a canopy shot. to Macchi on that fight (don't get those often enough).
Almost every plane has it's advantages and disadvantages, it's up to the player to understand what those are and then use them properly.
Yes, a P51 can turn... however, I wouldn't suggest too many revolutions with a zeke :D
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The only way you have a chance of turning with a zeek is 350 mph and up. Make a few realy agressive turns to force an overshot on the Zeek but still retain enough E to get the hell out of dodge if you cannot land a hit or get into trouble.
I will turn with just about anything win or lose i dont care. But when i get below 250mph I in a 51vs zeek I start thinking about what plane Im going to fly next.
That being said.. The 51D is a bad mother in AH. It will turn like a champ...
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I flew the AH2 51D for the first time the other night when I jumped in a mission.
I can see why folks use it a lot. The speed it has sure makes a difference. For an old 38G driver it was different to be able to walk away from just about anything. And as long as the turning was being done at higher speeds, the 51 had no problem. But I wouldn't want to turn fight in that thing low and slow, that's for sure.
Now I've been in a couple of fights like that 38G to 51B and D, and each time while the speed was up, the Mustangs were turning with me, but as we slowed the 38G was turning inside of em too.
No way I'd turn with a Zeke in one.
And anyone who would claim that the 51 historically turned with Zekes, doesn't have a clue.
Rule number 1 for USAAF fighter pilots fighting Zekes was keep the speed up and don't turn.
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I gotta disagree Dan. For S&G's next time your in the MA find a nice furball (if thats posible anymore) and grab a 51 with 25gas. Get in there and start turning with anything you find. Use all the flaps you can, rudder... Its a monster man. Beleive me.
But turn fighting a zeek at any speed under 250mph is playing with fire.
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Yes Morph it is a monster, even with 50% fuel it is a monster but it can't keep up with a zeke in a sustained turnfight. I am very surprised it does as good as it does when comparing wingloading. Empty 88kg vs 148kg per square meter. That is almost 70% more.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Cobra states that the P51 was designed for turning and should outturn the A6M5.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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With all the respect, you guys did this the wrong way. The way it was done in the Pacific was 1 vs 10 anything US.
The reasons the 51 is considered the 'best' wwii fighter is not because it could out turn A6Ms or Spits. It was because of its speed and range. Thats what counts in real liffe. Now, I don't know when the vote was taken about the best wwii fighter but I am willing to bet the Brits did not vote for the 51 and the Germans did not vote for the Spit nor did the Americans vote for the 190s or the 262s ;)
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Stfu dad.
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WOO SHADE ACCOUNTS!
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Originally posted by icarus
Stfu dad.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Shouldn't you be at the bottom of the Aigian?
Sorry about the wing thingie. But hey, I named an island after you
(kidds, they never listen :furious )
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I gotta disagree Dan. For S&G's next time your in the MA find a nice furball (if thats posible anymore) and grab a 51 with 25gas. Get in there and start turning with anything you find. Use all the flaps you can, rudder... Its a monster man. Beleive me.
But turn fighting a zeek at any speed under 250mph is playing with fire.
I'm guessing the guys I fought were much more full of fuel then 25, and I usually start with 25-50 in a 38G if I know the fight is close as it turns so much better then.
I know the B seems to be the better of the two Mustangs in the turn fights. That lighter wing loading helping a lot.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
sorry it was in swedish.
TW9, do what Spazzer said :)
I couldn't understand it either, and I've had to learn Swedish for .. 6 years ? .. and 1 course in the university. ;)
And Wilbus, although I fly for the same country as Spazzer does, and his name has 'pa' & 'zzer' also, would it be too hard for you to write my name correctly? :D
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LOL Panzzer I am very sorry! Not sure how I could missread it, guess I had my mind set elsewhere.
Sorry and :)
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I have found that most planes in AH will turn once with any plane.....ONCE! but the pony has the speed hey why not use it. Unfortunately I was in the conversation with Wilbuz and cobra....I do have to agree that the 50 caliber on the american planes are not as effective as the 20mm or the killer 23 mm in the il2. Not being the best shot in the world I need the" i hit you you are dead" of the german planes. What cobra also said was that the pony was undermodeled, in his own noobie way. I personally got the opinion that he had not flown it much, which for a noob is definately a death wish. He had also tried to turn with other planes and probably at low speeds...death again. So all I have to say is WHERE IS THE REAL TA 152 and when is it coming to AH>??:rofl
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In any discussion of the P-51 vs the Zero you will find detractors of both aircraft. This is standard partisan silliness.
Simply stated, if the P-51 has established a decent cruise speed, meeting a Zero Co-alt will be a one-sided engagement. There is virtually nothing the Zero can do if the P-51 pilot flies intelligently, beyond trying very hard not to get clobbered.
Should the Zero be Co-E, all the P-51 pilot needs to do is power-up and establish a shallow 1,500 fpm climb. Within a couple of minutes he will be well out ahead and above in position to execute a climbing reverse and set up a perch above the Zero. Should the zero pull nose-high to try to zoom up, the P-51 simply does the same until the Zeke runs out of E... a classic rope. As long as the Mustang retains an energy advantage either via pure speed or altitude, the Zero is totally defensive. Anyone with good gunnery skills will eventually kill the Zeke. Should the Zero try to dive away at any point, it's prospects of survival are virtually zilch.
One tactic I employ is to get the Zero driver complacent; having dodged several easy-does-it BnZ attacks he feels confident that he can avoid the next one. Except on the next one, I pop a couple notches of flaps, kick hard rudder and the Zero pilot is suddenly faced with a 6 gun brace of .50s pointed straight at his cockpit.
Should anyone run into my buddy Rowdy1 someday, ask him how the Zero stacks up against a Mustang... Believe me, he knows and he's a good Zeke stick.
Don't underestimate the P-51s, they can dance if the tempo is right.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I'm guessing the guys I fought were much more full of fuel then 25, and I usually start with 25-50 in a 38G if I know the fight is close as it turns so much better then.
I know the B seems to be the better of the two Mustangs in the turn fights. That lighter wing loading helping a lot.
You know, even though the claim is that the B turns better, I find that I don't like it as much because it doesn't seem to have the power the D has, and therefore I have a problem getting the nose around on shots. Even when I've got a couple notches of flaps the bravo seems real nose heavy... May just be me though.. :huh
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Originally posted by Howitzer
You know, even though the claim is that the B turns better, I find that I don't like it as much because it doesn't seem to have the power the D has, and therefore I have a problem getting the nose around on shots. Even when I've got a couple notches of flaps the bravo seems real nose heavy... May just be me though.. :huh
Above 11k, and all the way up to 17k the P-51B is a bit faster than the D model. Above 25k the B is again faster.
In terms of turning, the B is lighter for a given weight of fuel and does turn somewhat better below corner velocity. IMHO, the P-51B is the better of the two, but the P-51D packs considerably more wallop in terms of number of guns and ammo load.
My regards,
Widewing
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51 can turn if it has speed. Guns are weak at times. Just like in the Ma tonight i catch a Tempest Sleeping on the climb out.
Roll over and Dive in on his 6. CLosing at about 400 ias i let go
of a burst of about 400 rounds. Landing hits all the was from D600 til i almost Collide. Suddenly the Tempest comes to life dives to the field and lands. Sometimes i know i have layed a lick on a plane that should have brought it down but doesnt. I just lay it
off as net lag. Mind you havent been back playing long
but my gunnery is still good ( close to 7% ). As far as a 51
outturning a zeke you have no chance if slow.
RWY
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Well Teufl, the 50 caliber shouldn't be as good as cannons. These are non explosive half 12.7mm rounds vs 20mm rounds with High explosives in them.
While 50 cal suffer from a DM that doesn't affect the plane unless something is shot off, the same goes for 20mm. 50 cal has got plenty of things that makes them better guns in AH, range, trajectory, velocity and ammo load (ammo load for most planes atleast). While quick kills aren't archived as nicely in close as 20mm hits if you do hit on convergence or close they are leathel. I think most people have convergence set to far, I see very few people now days trying to bring me down at 400+ and I know the vast majority have their convergence at 400+.
Widewing, pretty much what I tried to say during my discussion before. A fairly intelligent flown P51 will totally dominate the fight. I prove this in the second flight when I decide to extend and come back and my flying there wasn't exactly whole hearted, more concerned with talking then flying.
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TW9. You must download BOTH File 1 and File 2.
Make sure you have Winrar installed. Like I said, give me your e-mail and I can send you the file instead if that make things easier for you! :)
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This:
"Cobra states that the P51 was designed for turning and should outturn the A6M5. Also states that the P51 was the best fighter of the war and is represented in AH in a bad way. I do not agree. "
LOL, what a git. The P51 is a so-so turner, we all know that.
But a Hurry I can give the a6m5 a headache ;)
And the D3A, perhaps also the Kate, not sure.
All in the wingloading sector.
A 109F vs a Zeke makes a fun fight BTW.
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You a class act Wilbus...never mind the planes..maybe he learned something.
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I often make a couple turns with a zero in just about anything I fly. Some planes you can do 1 or 2, others 3 maybe even 4, but after that just about any plane starts to lose the turn fight.
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Rgr that Filth, it isn't very smart however to even start turning with a zeke like that as you will lose the E you might have. If you do kill him that is good but if you miss the whole fight will take a whole lot longer as you need to extend and get new E.
OTW TW9
Thanks SirLion, I hope he did and I hope he takes a look at this thread and post a reply.
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Cobra......even if Wilbus was in a Boeing B52 he'd out fight you :)
Suggest you do some reading. For instance such facts as "The FW190 will out turn a Spit IX at high speed, but as speeds fall and the 190 loses E it is suggested that the 190 breaks the turn to keep his speed as the Spitfire will easily turn inside the 190 in prolonged turns etc. etc. etc.
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Originally posted by Angus
...LOL, what a git. The P51 is a so-so turner, we all know that.
But a Hurry I can give the a6m5 a headache ;)
And the D3A, perhaps also the Kate, not sure.
All in the wingloading sector.
A 109F vs a Zeke makes a fun fight BTW.
True. The a6m always gives me a headache in my HurriMk1. The Zeke is an even matched turner against Hurri (if not the slightest bit better vs Mk2). And it has the advantage of a canon to end fight quickly.
Zeke Vs Pony??? Turn the Stang and your dead quickly. (Even pilot skills supposed).
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Pilot skill supposed the pony pilot will never end up in a situation to turn with the zeke.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Above 11k, and all the way up to 17k the P-51B is a bit faster than the D model. Above 25k the B is again faster.
In terms of turning, the B is lighter for a given weight of fuel and does turn somewhat better below corner velocity. IMHO, the P-51B is the better of the two, but the P-51D packs considerably more wallop in terms of number of guns and ammo load.
My regards,
Widewing
I thought the D was faster at alt, some super charged turbo add on, or something.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
I thought the D was faster at alt, some super charged turbo add on, or something.
Nope, the P-51B is powered by the V-1650-3 engine, which has different supercharger gearing than the V-1650-7 in the P-51D. That means that they hit their peak power in low and high blower at different altitudes. This is from actual offline testing.
On the deck, the P-51D is faster by about 8 mph. At 10k it's still 5 mph faster (406 mph to 401 mph).
At 11k, it evens out at 411 mph for both. At 12k the P-51D begins to lose some speed until at 16k it's doing 405 mph.
However, the P-51B is hustling along at 425 mph, one mph faster than the Tempest.
At 17k, the P-51B starts to slip a bit. At 20k, the P-51D is doing 425 mph, the P-51B 421 mph.
By 25k the P-51D is making 441 mph, and the P-51B is doing 438 mph.
At 27,600 feet, the P-51B hits max speed of 444 mph, while the P-51D has fallen to 440 mph.
Up at 28,500 feet we see the P-51B able to reach 441 mph, with the P-51D at 438 mph.
So, it depends very much at which altitude the P-51s are at. Nonetheless, between 11k and 18k the P-51B accelerates faster,
climbs faster and is capable of higher speeds than the D-Stang. These are heights where engagements are relatively common in the MA.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Widewing, pretty much what I tried to say during my discussion before. A fairly intelligent flown P51 will totally dominate the fight. I prove this in the second flight when I decide to extend and come back and my flying there wasn't exactly whole hearted, more concerned with talking then flying.
Last night I only had enough time to fly one sortie, so I took a P-51D. After dispatching a 190A5 caught on the deck, I spot a high con coming in and see it jousting with another Rook. I head over and discover it's a Zero (A6M5) and the Rook is in a P-51D, but lower and somewhat at risk. What little E the other Mustang had was wasted as he tries to climb away from the faster Zeke. I turned on the film and waded in. I made a high-speed run and took a snap shot hoping the Zero would break off from the other P-51. He didn't. So, I execute a climbing reverse and bore in from dead astern. Pulling off power to get the closure rate down, I lined up behind and blew the Zeke's tail off at about 200 yards. He made no effort to evade, blissfully hammering away at the P-51 800 yards in front of him.
I was hoping for a good film to demonstrate the P-51's utter domination. Instead, all I got was a good film of why target fixation is a bad habit...
My regards,
Widewing
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Obviously this one has been beat to death:)....the only point I'd add Widewing just covered. The pony driver can dominate the fight using just about any style of "aerial kung fu" he wants by utilizing Throttle, flpas, rudder in the oblique verticals. A pony is only "at risk" while the zeke has a positive E state (and the positional advantage to use it) or if the pony "goes flat" for more than a 180 degree turn. Even then I think a fast pony in a flat 2 G turn will run the "outside track" faster than the zeke could pull for a lead shot...a conversion to a gentle nose up condition would still probably net a "spiral rope"....the only possible way the zeke can win is actually played out in the 1st clip (according to the description)...if the zeke aggresively takes the "under" in a vertical two circle fight he can potentially force multiple vertical front quarter engagements....basically it becomes a cat and mouse with the pony playing hang the prop and the zeke playing pop the radiator. Given the outstanding flaps and low speed handling the zeke is a roman candle 9 out of 10 I'd guess...
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hehe.....
51 can't turn with zero... End of story I've flown the 51 alot (one of artlaws trainees):noid
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Originally posted by Widewing
I was hoping for a good film to demonstrate the P-51's utter domination. Instead, all I got was a good film of why target fixation is a bad habit...
My regards,
Widewing
BWHAHAHAHA so very true :D
Btw, as far as P51B goes. While the charts don't show anything about 30k anymore I remember it having its max speed between 30 and 35k or so. Will go test it.
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Nope. Just above 300mph with no WEP at 35k in the P51B. The WEP is powerfull as hell though enabling it to accelerate to nearly 410mph before running out.
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yeah but what widewing didn't discuss is who is flying the zeke.. if its me.. then the best a 51 pilot will be able to do is stalemate me..
the zeke has tons of tricks just like the p51 when you get to learn them..
i fly my zeke constantly maintaining E at about 225-250 once the merge happens.. maybe faster if the enemy lets me and is passive..
at 225 to 250 any attack the p51 brings at me i can evade using a 3-4 g turn.. maintaining energy for his next attack.. (use the system of less g is better.. and match your turn to the enemy's aggressiveness..)
granted i cannot kill the p51 outright unless he allows me to do such.. he's just too fast and can dive away at will..
but some p51's or any other aircraft after about 10 passes with no bullets on target will start to get aggressive (you tell how they set up their attacks its very obvious when the battle rage sets in..) and thats when i conserve e as much a posssible and then follow them up on one of their zooms in lag pursuit.. by using lag pursuit when the stang rolls over the top of his zoom he has no shot.. granted my loop is lower than his most likely but the angle of my loop is in his 6 quarter forcing a impossible shot.. more degrees in the air.. its geometry pure and simple...
he now has the option to run away.. or die..
he also gives me a low percentage 400-500 m shot (poor in the zeke gun sight..) but with a little practice you get some hits..even at 80mph the zeke can brings guns to bare remember that.. headons or high forward quarter angle is not low class in this situation.. as seen in Wilbus / cobra ditching fight thats all you may need if a fuel or oil hit take place for either the zeke or p51
My honest opinion is that given equal pilots stalemate...
1 vs 1 is easy for the zeke; multiples is when you bite the farm...
2 cents..
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
yeah but what widewing didn't discuss is who is flying the zeke.. if its me.. then the best a 51 pilot will be able to do is stalemate me..
I'm sorry, I'm sure you're a hell of a stick, but if you meet up with one of the great pony drivers (they are very rare), they'll get ya at least 9 times uot of 10. The plane is just that much better.
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Your own arguement kills you YO....your best fight is a stalemate. Bottom line is the zeke cant win the fight....the pony can lose it. Like I said....a good zeke driver can force a vertical two circle "midgame" fight...but thats it. A good pony driver can easily counter that and drive the fight down. Once you run out of room the fight flattens out as you lose the use of the vertical the pony can hang in the vertical obliques and maul the zeke. As you said your counting on a ~500yd hail mary...and if you to hang the prop at 80 IAS and miss...you'll never evade a good pony driver rolling over on you...so in effect you have option A "a vertical lag zoom" which is a defensive manuever designed to maximize E retention and alt and buy you as much time as possible for the other guy to whiff....or option B...which is an aggressive hang the nose and pop off some 20mm and see if I get lucky...or...option C...He goes up I go down...he comes down and I pull up into him and smack him in the kisser....
Meanwhile the pony driver is sitting there playing the you cant run you cant hide and you cant control the fight cards....
Pony wins 9 out of 10 if pilots are equal....