Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Boroda on September 20, 2005, 02:12:15 PM
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http://mosnews.com/news/2005/09/20/lithstatementonsu.shtml
Those Lithuanian politicians definetly suffer from thought-producing gangle atrophy.
It's obvious that a Russian fighter suffered in an accident. AFAIK in this case a crew should be immediately released as well as aircraft or wreck. I find this "staged and planned crash" hallucinations absolutely ridiculous.
Toad, can you educate us on this topic? Seriously! Thanks in advance!
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Hehe! I love the spin.
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"Russian officials gave conflicting reports of why the jet had entered Lithuanian airspace."
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"In May, Finland complained that Russian military aircraft had repeatedly violated its airspace for several months. The violations allegedly took place over the Gulf of Finland in the Baltic Sea as the fighter jets flew to and from Kaliningrad.
Similar alleged violations by Russian planes have been reported in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. In November, the Estonian government filed an official complaint with Moscow, but said none was serious enough to merit intervention by the four NATO fighters that patrol the Baltics' airspace."
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That and the two missiles that were reportedly found at the sight.
I wonder why they are being cautious and not biting off into the apple? :)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Lithuania: NATO membership = ignoring international agreements?
Anybody remember international agreements like the Helsinki accords? Seem to remember some controversy about one of the signatories at the time...
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cant blame the pilots, their air force probably cant afford maps to navigate.
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Originally posted by Furball
cant blame the pilots, their air force probably cant afford maps to navigate.
They were using old AW maps. They were headed for Mog and ended up at Twi. :)
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Isn’t this is the same country that made memorials to SS soldiers and still waving swastika proudly? Not surprising at all….
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Originally posted by Russian
Isn’t this is the same country that made memorials to SS soldiers and still waving swastika proudly? Not surprising at all….
Nazis werent the first to use swastika.
We, finns, still do proudly use the "swastika", which we've had since the independency.
It exists in some medals, in the flag of a unit......
Some of us, those who knows the history well, do also honor our Waffen-SS "volunteers" (1. they were having harsh times under german command, 2. they wanted to fight against russians, the enemy of their homeland, 3. they didn't participate in the attrocities. No reason to be ashamed of these guys).
However, I don't know the background of the Lithuanian swastika.
So all I'm saying, is that all swastikas aren't automatically bad - it is ignorant to claim so.
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, can you educate us on this topic? Seriously! Thanks in advance!
Well, I used to think that if a foreign aircraft accidentally violated a nation's airspace that it either be escorted out of that airspace, directed to land at the nearest suitable airfield or rendered any possible assistance.
However, I since have been educated on this board.
I now know that ANY foreign airspace that violates even an inch of a sovereign country's airspace should be immediately shot down.
:)
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #2, #5
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Originally posted by Russian
Isn’t this is the same country that made memorials to SS soldiers and still waving swastika proudly? Not surprising at all….
After 55 years, I had the means to vist my bith country Lithuania !
A lot has changed, some for the better and some for the ???????
My cousin, who happens to live in the same house that my father built, and served in the Russian Army as Sergant, took us through our childhood memories.
I am sorry to say, I did not come across anywhere that a swastika was displayed. Sure I aggree, just like the skinheads in Canada, USA and Manson, who had a tattoo put on his forhead, thought that wearing swastika as german SS did, would give them their wish - power ! so some skinheads do exist even in Lithuania.!
I my home town, in the middle of town, is a small cemetery, for the fallen russian soldiers, among them is Stalins son, who was
a fighter pilot..it is beautifully looked after, all headstones red marble. So why do we keep grudges, that shorten our lives, new day should tell us, "Yes many of us did wrong, but today lets make it right"
I am not saying that you or the others are wrong thinking as you and the others do!, but why not let bygones be bygones.
I hope that I did not offened anyone...I said only, the way it is.
_____________________________ _______________________
"Alive you can fight, Dead you cannot!"
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Originally posted by Fishu
Germans have already suffered and paid for following the austrian corporal, but yet they're forced to pay and suffer even more.
Germans have been made so passive that they couldn't hurt a mouse in fear and shame of getting labeled as a nazi.
Is that rightful, against a generation that was born after the wars and been taught throughoutly of their past?
.
Its true
i was in school and I said to an israeli friendly classmate hey, maybe we as the good guys could like try to let only the palestinians kill women and children. And suddenly I was a holocaust denying anti sematic fool. he must have said nevar ferget! 20 times in the next 3 minutes.
my German wife also claims that the german national anthem today is different from the one in the nazi times, even though it is the same song written in the 1870s
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #2, #5
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Originally posted by Russian
Isn�t this is the same country that made memorials to SS soldiers and still waving swastika proudly? Not surprising at all�.
You mix Latvia with Lithuania.
Latvia has government support for SS criminals, not Lithuania. In Latvia I may go to prison for my avatar, while SS bastards march in the streets in nazi uniforms and get flowers from their neonazi government.
In Lithuania SS service was quite unpopular IIRC, because nazis took away Klaipeda (Memel), while USSR gave Lithuania a significant territory, including their historical capital, Vilnus (Vilno).
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Originally posted by VILKAS
I my home town, in the middle of town, is a small cemetery, for the fallen russian soldiers, among them is Stalins son, who was
a fighter pilot..it is beautifully looked after, all headstones red marble. So why do we keep grudges, that shorten our lives, new day should tell us, "Yes many of us did wrong, but today lets make it right"
I know that Soviet military cemeteries are kept with care and respect in Lithuania. But Vassiliy Stalin is buried in Kazan', Tatar republic, it's their local pride ;)
Originally posted by VILKAS
I am not saying that you or the others are wrong thinking as you and the others do!, but why not let bygones be bygones.
I hope that I did not offened anyone...I said only, the way it is.
Sorry for being a little provocative, I am sorry if I offended your feelings, but I have to say that now Lithuania is an enemy of my country, and it's a sad fact.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, I used to think that if a foreign aircraft accidentally violated a nation's airspace that it either be escorted out of that airspace, directed to land at the nearest suitable airfield or rendered any possible assistance.
However, I since have been educated on this board.
I now know that ANY foreign airspace that violates even an inch of a sovereign country's airspace should be immediately shot down.
:)
Toad, it's not an answer I asked for ;)
I see some difference between violation of souverign airspace and a planned flight agreed by both sides.
So - what about aircrafts and crews who suffered in accident? Russian definition is "terpet' bedstviye" (âÕàßÕâì ÑÕÔáâÒØÕ), Ligvo dictionary doesn't give me a direct translation of this term, only "crash" or "to be wrecked".
Lithuania is a "limitrophe", and it doesn't have and even can't afford any aircraft defence, they destroyed what was left to them by USSR, and NATO "allies" that have bases there failed to do their job of "protecting" Lithuanian airpace. It only proves that they are in Lithuania not for protection.
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See Rule #5
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Fishu, that Su-27 was on a planned route over Lithuania. It suffered from an accident. In this case international laws say that both pilot and aircraft must be immediately returned.
They got soooo happy because this fighter is probably worth more then their whole armed forces. It also has classified equipment on board, like FoF answering and weapon-control systems that are not installed on export versions.
I think that an adequate answer to hostile actions of Lithuanian and NATO authorities had to be a bomb/missile strike to destroy the wreck that was in enemy hands.
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For russians it's always nice to refer to the international law when they want something, but ignored when the others wants something.
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I still say if you cross one inch into the sacred sovereign airspace of the Lithuanian motherland you should immediately be shot down. After all, it is clear you are spying.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Fishu, that Su-27 was on a planned route over Lithuania.
The aircraft veered from the corridor and entered their airspace.
Seems the russian airforce has a lot of "accidents" in regards to airspace.
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This is all a NATO conspiracy. Russian planes do not crash.
(http://www.nada.kth.se/~ayt/pictures/mig29-crash.gif)
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Originally posted by Boroda
You mix Latvia with Lithuania.
I though so. btw,
there's a good discussion on this at suikoy BB.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I know that Soviet military cemeteries are kept with care and respect in Lithuania. But Vassiliy Stalin is buried in Kazan', Tatar republic, it's their local pride ;)
Sorry for being a little provocative, I am sorry if I offended your feelings, but I have to say that now Lithuania is an enemy of my country, and it's a sad fact.
Hi Boroda
No you did not offend me, it is hard to offend someone that is pushing 76th year!
I can not agree or disagree with you where Vassiliy Stalin is put to rest !...As a matter of fact, I read that both of us can be correct!
As I stated before, the cemetery in my hometown Lithuania, on the monument dedicated to the Russian soldiers, states (if I can remember)...." Here Vassiliy Stalin, son of Josef Stalin, fighter pilot, is put to rest among brave Russian sodiers, we thank them for their sacriface...my they rest in pease"....
As for small Lithuania, being an enemy to the large country Russia, ...... maybe to some!..but not to me.. if not for nice Russian Officers, my father would have died somewere in the North of Russia...the other side of Ural mountains !
Therefore Boroda....as far as I am...U R a friend...like it or not !!!
_____________________________ ______________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad"
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Originally posted by Fishu
See Rule #4, #5
Too much Vodka today Fishu ? SS was and is a terrible sign for most of us " uneduacated" people
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See Rule #4, #5
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Originally posted by airguard
Too much Vodka today Fishu ? SS was and is a terrible sign for most of us " uneduacated" people
Nope, it's just that I honor those who were made part of the war, regardless of the nationship and the army, as long as their actions were creditable.
I've studied the history to make difference between the SS and Waffen-SS and between some of the groups within the organization and learned the fate of several Waffen-SS soldiers and their units.
Without any shame, by what I've learned of the finnish "volunteer" troops in the Waffen-SS, I honor them at least as much as any finnish soldier.
They had to not only fight against the enemy, but against the greatly different german training and command methods.
The finnish Waffen-SS troops were not the only ones of their kind.
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See Rule #4
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Originally posted by Lizard3
See Rule #4
Oh yes !....To every story, there are 3 sides, that was what my teacher used to say so many years ago.
"Your side. my side and the truth !!"
I would not do that even to an enemy, let alone a friend, but it is a good thought !
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Originally posted by VILKAS
Hi Boroda
No you did not offend me, it is hard to offend someone that is pushing 76th year!
I can not agree or disagree with you where Vassiliy Stalin is put to rest !...As a matter of fact, I read that both of us can be correct!
As I stated before, the cemetery in my hometown Lithuania, on the monument dedicated to the Russian soldiers, states (if I can remember)...." Here Vassiliy Stalin, son of Josef Stalin, fighter pilot, is put to rest among brave Russian sodiers, we thank them for their sacriface...my they rest in pease"....
V. I. Stalin is buried in Kazan', in "exile", he was prohibited to live in central cities after he got out of prison. Maybe there is a grave of some other pilot from Politburo families? Or maybe it's Yakov Dzhugashvili? I don't know if Germans buried him or just burned the body...
Originally posted by VILKAS
As for small Lithuania, being an enemy to the large country Russia, ...... maybe to some!..but not to me.. if not for nice Russian Officers, my father would have died somewere in the North of Russia...the other side of Ural mountains !
Therefore Boroda....as far as I am...U R a friend...like it or not !!!
I'd like to think that you are my friend too, I don't think that any political or historical conflicts matter much in personal relations. I don't think of anyone here as of an "enemy". I think it's obvious.
My opinion is that there are some powers who need us to be enemies. Their main tool is lie and nationalistic feelings. :(
You are an aged man, and it deserves a lot of respect. My Father is 78 now, and he also uses computers and Internet, it's hard to believe that he learned to read under a kerosene lamp...
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Originally posted by Lizard3
I think Boroda needs to take a Korean airliner full of civilians shot down over Kamchatka and shove them so far up his bellybutton his hair cries.
Thanks. I'll pass it right to CIA and Toad's employers, who thought that using a civilian aircraft as a recon target is a good idea, and followed it with RC-135s, also having spy-sattelites over it when it was in PVO areas. As Toad said they were only "plotting ingress routes" :(
All this story is as dirty and stinks as a pigsty. :( Unfortunately the provocation was successfull, but still noone knows who shot down whom...
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"I think that an adequate answer to hostile actions of Lithuanian and NATO authorities had to be a bomb/missile strike to destroy the wreck that was in enemy hands."
Ya, bombing the crater would fix everything, and risking a war over a single crashed fighter thats already in 10,000 peices makes so much sense.
:huh
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Originally posted by Boroda
Thanks. I'll pass it right to CIA and Toad's employers, who thought that using a civilian aircraft as a recon target is a good idea, and followed it with RC-135s, also having spy-sattelites over it when it was in PVO areas. As Toad said they were only "plotting ingress routes" :(
Of course in situations like this you don't use fighters to intercept them visually and then make sure the RC-135 gets shot down instead of the civilian aircraft.
Amazingly the RC-135 survived without a scratch... where was the intercept fighters?
Usually you hear about such planes first getting intercepted visually by a fighter.
And whats the story with the swedish plane, that was shot down over international waters?
Spying soviet intrests over the "soviet international waters", eh?
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See Rule #5, #4
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Originally posted by Fishu
I dont know of the origins of Lithuanian swastika.
What comes to the finnish Waffen-SS "volunteers", they were purely part of a combat unit and did not take part into the attrocities.
Besides that SS and Waffen-SS are different organizations.
Ya had me.....
Originally posted by Fishu
The hypocrit jews
...ya lost me.
It is a shame how they tattoo palistinians that invaded their country the way Germans tattooed Jews that did the same.
I think those hypocrit Fins are really the problem with the world today. If only we could get rid of em all, things would be much better. Not all Fins, just the hypocrits.
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quote:
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Originally posted by Fishu
I dont know of the origins of Lithuanian swastika.
What comes to the finnish Waffen-SS "volunteers", they were purely part of a combat unit and did not take part into the attrocities.
Besides that SS and Waffen-SS are different organizations.
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As far as I know Oradour was the work of the Waffen-SS.And by that time it was full of non-germans (the SS). Did they order all voulunteers on lunch-break, while the true germans kill everyone and torch the town?
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The Su-27 was on a "planned route over Lithuania". It was being shadowed by 6 Russian spy planes as closely as possilbe. It suffered from a faked accident while Russian spy-satellites watched it and recorded the Lithuanian response. This is all in preparation for the coming Russian invasion of Lithuania. :(
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
As far as I know Oradour was the work of the Waffen-SS.And by that time it was full of non-germans (the SS). Did they order all voulunteers on lunch-break, while the true germans kill everyone and torch the town?
I never claimed that foreigners or the Waffen-SS didn't take part in the massacres at all during the war.
What I've said, is: the finnish volunteers in Waffen-SS didn't take part in genocides and main function of Waffen-SS was to combat at the frontline.
Massacres by Waffen-SS should be rather isolated cases and probably more related to certain units.
However I wouldn't go too critical on the whole history of Waffen-SS based on isolated incidents, mainly in the last phase of the war, when the ranks of Waffen-SS were totally F'ed up.
Along the war theres also some well proven cases where Waffen-SS soldiers killed surrendered enemy soldiers, but I don't really know any army that didn't, more or less.
Do you have more information on that where from the recruited soldiers were, other than just "foreign"?
I know that at least polish volunteers were renown for brutality, but as I recall they were that in the SS.
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Originally posted by OttoJ
:aok 100% agreement !.....Is it not better to talk about something we know!....instead to say things that only few higher-ups know for sure !?
At WW2 beginning, Waffen SS were the "Mop-up Gang" very brutal, they stayed 1 to 2 days behind the front, and got rid of everything and anyone, they thought should be get rid of.
Near the end of the war, anyone that was able to walk, even agaist their will, was put into Waffen SS, young and old alike.....war does very strange things to people!!!!..we can see that happening even now...can we not?......
Many wounds have been healed by now, but some of us keep on scraching, till blood comes again to the surface....Should we not do things, to make shure that something like that never happens again ........Now that we experts know what realy happened.., do we?....:mad:
_____________________________ _______________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad"
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Originally posted by Squire
Ya, bombing the crater would fix everything, and risking a war over a single crashed fighter thats already in 10,000 peices makes so much sense.
:huh
Lithuanian airforce commander in chief (former Soviet fighter pilot, who else he could be?) already got fired because he informed his Russian colleagues about the "friend or foe" answerer that is in enemy hands. At least it's what Lithuanian press said as a most possible version.
Again, the on-board elecronics and fire control systems of the Soviet (er, Russian) Su-27 is very much different from export version.
NATO "anti-aircraft defence" in Lithuania prooved to be absolutely ineffective. Famous German pilots didn't take off until the invading plane crashed. The plane was from the very beginning known to be a combat plane, not a civilian plane by any means. This inability to do anything to protect Lithuanian airspace gives you one clear answer to a question why NATO is there.
We don't need war. But I think that we must show the enemy that we are ready to answer. In this gamble of aggressive actions we don't bluff. Unfortunately, so-called "Baltic republics" don't understand that instead of protection they get dangerous provocators who don't care to write them off in case of war, like pawns.
I have to wonder again: and this people wanted to have a war with us. Like kids. :( Now they are within several minutes of flight from Leningrad, er, SPb.
I think it's hard to understand what I said for the people who don't have enemy forces within artillery fire range from their major population centers and who never had the enemy dropping bombs upon their homes and starving millions in sieged cities. :(
Funny thing: there was an official report of NATO airforce in Estonia (another limitroph, an aggressive cavenen anti-Russian SS adoring EU/NATO member), "F-16 fighter can't reach it's top speed in Estonian airspace". Guess why? Estonia is simply too damn small for it to accelerate. In Riga, Latvia there was a panic when they heard a sonic boom from NATO planes "patrolling" their airspace. Can you imagine it: there were no supersomic flights over Latvia since 1991. They forgot sonic booms! They probably wonder why planes fly without waving wings like birds.
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Originally posted by VILKAS
Near the end of the war, anyone that was able to walk, even agaist their will, was put into Waffen SS, young and old alike.....war does very strange things to people!!!!..we can see that happening even now...can we not?......
There was an interesting thing in Latvian SS "veterans" interviews: they said that they joined SS because they offered free booze, unlike other recruiters... :mad: They are probably proud now - they are all national heros. Hangman jobs payed quite well after 60 years :mad:
In Lithuania, as I read in many sources, there was never a big support for nazis, so they probably had to catch everyone who had even number of hands and legs... AFAIK there were some Jews left in Lithuania when Red Army came back. In Riga when our forces returned there were 18 (eighteen) Jews left. Hidden by partisans, who get sentenced for their activities now, while SS hangmen march on parades :mad:
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Hmmmm. You are doing great successings in russian understanding of world.
Now you are to begin learning of how to use russian worse words and drinking vodka as we do.
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Originally posted by Estel
Hmmmm. You are doing great successings in russian understanding of world.
Now you are to begin learning of how to use russian worse words and drinking vodka as we do.
i've got Eva to confuse me enough.
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I believe Father of Lithuanian president was a nazi,not sure tho.
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Originally posted by Toad
I still say if you cross one inch into the sacred sovereign airspace you should immediately be shot down. After all, it is clear you are spying.
Originally posted by Lizard3
I think Boroda needs to take a Korean airliner full of civilians shot down over Kamchatka and shove them so far up his bellybutton his hair cries.
Perhaps you should shove them up yours Lizard3
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Originally posted by ATA
I believe Father of Lithuanian president was a nazi,not sure tho.
If U R not sure !....Why even mention!:mad:
Hope this brings to an end, becouse it kind of went away from the main toppic !!!! It became stupid !
Just look at the finger U R pointing, three fingers are pointing at
who?....
_____________________________ _____________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad"