Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: MiloMorai on September 22, 2005, 06:07:51 AM
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Stole this from another forum.
Prelude
The incident began on 11 May 1939, when a Mongolian cavalry unit of some 70-90 men entered the disputed area in search of grazing for their horses, and encountered Manchukuoan cavalry who drove them out of the disputed territory. Two days later the Mongolian force returned and the Manchukoans were unable to evict them.
At this point the Japanese Guandong Army became involved -- a reconnaissance unit under Lt. Col. Yaozo Azuma was sent to engage the Mongolians on 14 May, but they retreated west of the river with few losses. Joseph Stalin ordered STAVKA, the Red Army's high command, to develop a plan for a counterstrike against the Japanese. To lead the attack, Georgy Zhukov, a young officer of promise, was chosen.
The Mongolians and Soviets continued to build up forces in the area, and Azuma's force returned a week later. This time the Japanese forces were surrounded by superior numbers of Soviet and Mongolian infantry and tanks, and on 28-29 May the Azuma force was destroyed, suffering 8 officers and 97 men killed and one officer and 33 men wounded, with 63% casualties. The Guangdong Army decided that the area was not worth the expenditure of any more Japanese blood.
Throughout June, however, there were continuing reports of Soviet and Mongolian activity on both sides of the river near Nomonhan, and small-scale attacks on isolated Manchukoan units. At the end of the month the local Guandong Army commander, Lt. Gen. Michitaro Komatsubara, was given permission to "expel the invaders". The Japanese operation started on 1 July and was initially successful in crossing the Halha river. However, by the evening of 3 July the attack stalled and the Soviet forces, led by Zhukov, threw the Japanese back over the river. The front then stabilized with only minor actions for the summer.
The Battle
Finally, in mid-August, Zhukov decided it was time to break the stalemate. He deployed approximately 50,000 Russian and Mongolian troops of the 57th Special Corps to defend the east bank of the Halhin Gol River, then crossed the river on 20 August to attack the elite Japanese with three infantry divisions (70,000 men in all), massed artillery, a tank brigade, and the best planes of the Red Air Force.
Japanese doctrine at the time was for front-line troops to hold their positions with high rates of fire, and await relief actions from the rear. While very successful against the lightly armed Chinese forces, the Soviet tanks turned the tables on them entirely, and the front lines were cut off. Two complete divisions were surrounded while the other forces were scattered. On 27 August the Japanese attempted to break out of the encirclement, but failed. When the surrounded forces refused to surrender, Zhukov wiped them out with artillery and air attacks. The battle ended 31 August with the complete destruction of the Japanese forces.
Aftermath
Following the battle, the Red Army attacked what remained of the Japanese forces and drove them back into Manchukuo. On 16 September the Japanese asked for a cease-fire and nearly two years later signed a treaty in which they agreed to abide by the existing border.
Of the 30,000 troops on the Japanese side, 8440 were killed and 8766 wounded. The Red Army committed 57,000 infantry, 498 tanks, and 346 armoured cars to the battle, and claimed total losses (killed and wounded) of 9284 men. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, new documents about the battle changed the numbers considerably. The actual number of losses in the battle was 23,926, of whom 6,831 killed, 1,143 reported missing and 15,952 wounded. While the Red Army did win the battle, it was not a one-sided battle as previously believed.
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That seems perfectly consistent with everything else the soviets distorted. Now, all is left to convince Boroda about this. :lol
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Hm. Sources, please. Almost 50% losses are a little bit too much for Halhin-Gol operation.
That operation is famous for logistics, everything had to be delivered for several hundreed kilometers through the desert without any roads.
Grand Soviet Encylopedia, losses from May to September, Japanese forces: over 61000, Soviet/Mongolian forces: over 18500.
Link. (http://slovari.yandex.ru/art.xml?art=bse/00085/92100.htm&encpage=bse&mrkp=http%3A//hghltd.yandex.com/yandbtm%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A//encycl.yandex.ru/texts/bse/00085/92100.htm%26text%3D%25F5%25E0%25EB%25F5%25E8%25ED-%25E3%25EE%25EB%26reqtext%3D%2528%25F5%25E0%25EB%25F5%25E8%25ED%253A%253A2063133498%2B%2526/%25281%2B1%2529%2B%25E3%25EE%25EB%253A%253A11626%2529//6%26%26isu%3D2)
Your numbers look like sucked out of finger.
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That is not possible.
(the convincing boroda part)
On the other side of the coin, we can name literally hundreds of actions that were distorted in their reporting to the public by our own government in wartime. Many of those 'official records' to this day retain all the earmarks of bogus propoganda taylored to put the event in the best possible light.
Such is war, propaganda and governments.
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I dont think its possible to suck numbers out of a finger, either.
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Originally posted by Simaril
I dont think its possible to suck numbers out of a finger, either.
what the heck does that mean anyway?
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Sorry, sometimes I use directly translated Russian idiomatic expressions.
To suck something out of finger, to take something from the ceiling = to use random, imaginary information that has no proof.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sorry, sometimes I use directly translated Russian idiomatic expressions.
To suck something out of finger, to take something from the ceiling = to use random, imaginary information that has no proof.
Ah,
7- Members should remember this board is aimed at a general audience. Posting pornographic or generally offensive text, images, links, etc. will not be tolerated. This includes attempts to bypass the profanity filter. - MP0
Ok, I understand you now :)
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Is that link you provided for pre 1991 history or for post 1991 history Boroda?
Can't remember where I got it from as was I was browsing the web.
But it would seem this page, http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/battles/khalkhin_gol/losses.htm, used a Russian source, M. Kolomiets. "Boi u reki Khalkhin-Gol" Frontovaya Illyustratsia, No 2, 2002 and is near enough to the numbers stated in the original post.
Conclusion is, you are reading propaganda.
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Rofl MiloMorai I assume this is the first time you've been in a debate with him? :rofl
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File Not Found: Please report this page and the referring page to forumadmin@armchairgeneral.com so we can fix the problem!
I don't think I'll be able to find a book you quoted, only 3000 copies, and it costs $10, too much for 80 pages.
Your problem is that the number of "official pre-1991 losses" is wrong. I quoted Grand Soviet Encyclopedia, third edition, published in 1970s. The number you gave doesn't differ much from what I read there.
It's a classic anti-soviet tactics: make a false statement, then say it was a bloody lie of evil Soviet propaganda. I see it every day on Central Television.
I made a brief search in .ru-net and didn't find any source that gives your "pre-1991" number. I'm too lazy to dig into Zhukov's memoirs, sorry.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Rofl MiloMorai I assume this is the first time you've been in a debate with him? :rofl
No, he's just found out another revelation about Great Soviet Propaganda Lies and wants to share it :D As if someone cares :D
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Rofl MiloMorai I assume this is the first time you've been in a debate with him? :rofl
Yep, goes something like this from Boroda:
Western Propaganda
(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/blah.gif) Lies (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/blah.gif)anti-soviet tactics(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/blah.gif)more lies(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/blah.gif)propaganda(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/blah.gif)
:rofl
Its entertaining though!
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Naw MrRip, just trying to re-educated Boroda. :D
Maybe you can't access the link as it dispute your version of Russian history. :)
Try this, http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/index.htm
I quoted Grand Soviet Encyclopedia, third edition, published in 1970s.
This is PRE 1991 history. The numbers I quoted and linked to are POST 1991 numbers.
Just to refresh your memory, Grand Soviet Encylopedia, losses from May to September, Japanese forces: over 61000, Soviet/Mongolian forces: over 18500.
Don't differ much? 61,000 is much different than the ~17,000 stated in my post. Soviet losses were ~30% higher than your pre 1991 history numbers.
Guys, stop making fun of Borada.
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Ok, found that page.
There are no links to "old Soviet propaganda data".
Sources for Japanese losses are doubtfull. Remember their Halhin-Gol air victory counts, two or three aces scored more kills then total number of Soviet planes there.
There is a significant difference between 9000 that you quoted as Soviet losses and "over 18500" in GSE. 23000 is not "less then 18500", is it? ;) It depends on how to count, maybe GSE doesn't include some categories.
Frankly speaking - I don't care about +/- 1000 casualities after 65 years. The fact remains that Japanese army got is's bellybutton kicked and somehow cured from euphoria they had after Hasan lake conflict, that was a total ****-up on Soviet side. Halhin-Gol was a unique operation, noone was able to deploy and supply troops at such conditions. And it secured our Eastern borders for the whole War.
Even if it really was a propaganda issue - it's nothing compared to American propaganda in Korean war and some other conflicts.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sources for Japanese losses are doubtfull. Remember their Halhin-Gol air victory counts, two or three aces scored more kills then total number of Soviet planes there.
..and in turn the soviet aces shot down the whole finnish air force few times over.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sorry, sometimes I use directly translated Russian idiomatic expressions.
To suck something out of finger, to take something from the ceiling = to use random, imaginary information that has no proof.
I believe the theorym you are looking for is called PIDOOMA (Pulled It Directly Out Of My Ass)