Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: EagleDNY on September 24, 2005, 02:13:24 PM
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Any of you 109 buffs ever hear about a twin 30mm belly package for 109g10/u4s?? I'll go back and see if I can find the reference and post it.
EagleDNY
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the 'u' in U4 stands for umbausatz, which means a modification kit for in the field (they can modify the kit in the field)
Probably it's a very limited set
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Yes, there were some very strange kits that were put in place. Some were unusual (and uncommon).
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Hi Eagle,
>Any of you 109 buffs ever hear about a twin 30mm belly package for 109g10/u4s?? I'll go back and see if I can find the reference and post it.
The MK108 is unsuitable for snychronization, so I assume the guns weren't meant for firing straight ahead?
There were experiments with a belly-pack containing one MG151/20 firing through the propeller disk. It was found that the impact on performance was much smaller than with the twin wing gondolas of the Me 109G-6/R6, and ballistical performance was better since the gun was centre-line mounted. However, for some reason it wasn't serialized - maybe because the fighter leaders feared Hitler would have them mount the belly-pack in addition to the wing gondolas and not instead of them ;-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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I heard of only FW190s has gondolas
with one Mk108 or Mk103 cannon each
wing or Mk108 cannon replace the MG/FF
on the FW190-A6 and later.
The only Bf109 with two wing mounted
Mk108 is the 109-K6. I don't think the K6
was in active duty.
109s normally had the 151/20 and with
the /R6 one mounted in gondolas each
wing. The /U4 change the 151/20 with
a Mk108.
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The Bf 110G (Night Fighter) had a cannon belly pack option. I think you are referring to that. Not the 109G.
I dont think you could mount a belly pack on a single engined fighter.
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Originally posted by Squire
The Bf 110G (Night Fighter) had a cannon belly pack option. I think you are referring to that. Not the 109G.
I dont think you could mount a belly pack on a single engined fighter.
There was a belly pod with a single MG151/20 cannon designed and built for 109s. I know it was not used in service.
There were also wing pods for Bf109G that had the 30mm instead of the 20mm cannon. I'm not sure if these saw service.
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I would like to know if they did see service. Does anybody have any info whatsoever about the 109G's 30mm gondolas?
I ask because if we find out they were used, it'd be sweet to see them in-game (no more 1x30 nose gun and 2x20 gondolas, all guns have the same ballistics! And it'd down ANY bomber in 1 ping lmfaorofl)
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The R (such as 190 A8/R2) was field conversion kits. "U" were factory conversion kits.
The 109 G10/U4 had provision for a gun belly pack consisting of 2x30mm MK 108 cannons, this could be replaced but a non jetisonble fuel tank.
Source is: Warplanes of the Luftwaffe. From the publisher "Aerospace".
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The guns would have to be angled downwards then? The MK108 could not be synchronized like the MG151(E).
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Would seriously doubt they'd be angled downwards.
Why couldn't they be synchronized? Do you have a source? Would be interesting to read.
What kind of an avatar is that anyway?
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Hi,
according to this page; http://www.xs4all.nl/~tozu/me109/family/109G.htm , the Rüstsatz R5 was the 2 x 30mm gunpods.
Greetings, Knegel
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Nope /U5 and U6 were the Umbau related to MK108 Gondolas which required extensive modifications of the wings. Only /U6 eems to have been really considered and that only with the G-14.
After operational testing proved the weapon unsatisfactory the project was dropped.
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Ok, thanks!
What is the R-5 Rüstsatz then?
Greetings, Knegel
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Source Butch?
My Source says G10/U4's.
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A couple of comments:
The 30mm MK 108 could not be synchronised for the same reason that the MG-FF and all other Oerlikon-type API blowback guns could not be; the mechanism wasn't suitable. All of these guns fired from an open bolt, so when the synchronising gear tripped the mechanism, the bolt had to trundle forward, collect a new round from the belt or magazine, chamber it, and then fire it. All this took far too long for the precise timing needed to ensure that the shells wouldn't hit a propeller blade.
The Bf 109 installation of a single MG 151/20 in a belly pod was not followed up because it had to be synchronised, which meant that the electrically-primed version of the 151 had to be used. The hub gun used the percussion-primed variant. Since the ammo was incompatible but easily confused, it was felt that the risk of loading the wrong ammo was too great.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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Tony, any info on the 30mm gondolas? I believe the R5 rutsatz, according to the webpage link listed?
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The Rustsatz V was never attributed to anything on the Gustav G-1 to G-6 and the Rustzustand R5 was a modification made to recce a/c (G-8).
Rustsatz V according to K-4 documents (could apply to G-10 and G-14) is described as "luftfilter für ansaugleitung"
MK108 gondolas were never given any designation nor any official part number.
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Hi Tony,
>Since the ammo was incompatible but easily confused, it was felt that the risk of loading the wrong ammo was too great.
Hm, I'm not sure that makes sense. The propeller hub cannon could easily be converted to electrically primed ammunition, too. (Wasn't it you who taught me that on the Fw 190, the outer MG151/20 were electrically primed for this very reason? :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Yes it could, Henning, but I suspect that practical considerations decided the issue. AFAIK the only plane to see service with the MG 151E was the Fw 190. All other planes used the percussion version. This meant that production rates for the percussion version of the gun and ammunition would have been much higher. If it had been decided to switch the Bf 109 entirely to the electric-primed gun, the production rates for the two types would have had to be changed. Then you would have the transitional problem, with older Bf 109s still having the percussion gun while newer ones had the electric - I doubt that it would have been feasible to make enough E guns and ammo to do a retrospective switch.
Basically, especailly at this relatively late stage of the war, I suspect that it would all have been too much trouble.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)