Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: J_A_B on September 27, 2005, 01:32:08 AM
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So I have a question for those who think the Federal government wants to destroy our freedoms to subjugate the population.
Why do they need to?
The Federal government is already in full control. They have no signifigant opposition. They can do practically anything they want. What, then, is their motive for supposedly wanting to conquer what they already control?
It's not evil intent I worry about. It's their good intentions.
J_A_B
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"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke
:noid
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JAB, let me see if I can pull off a "what if"
(Its early here & I'm just now tasting the coffee)
What if anyone walking down the street could at any time walk up & kick in your door. He has no reason to now, you have nothing he doesn't have already. But what if suddenly he could.
Would you be happy with that situation?
What if next week the power goes out, the stores are all looted, and now people are going through houses looking for food.
Would you be happy with this situation?
Rather than trying to control situations that you can't forecast or predict. Doesn't it make more sense to put locks on your doors?
Granted, if someone wants to badly enough, he can still come though.
But it takes longer, makes noise, warns you & the neighbors that its happening.
Gives you time to grab the shotgun, hide the kids, etc.
Am I worried that our current goverment will try to take more control than they already have?? No, not really, but then I don't leave my door unlocked at night either. But its not the current goverment that I worry about. Its the one that decides in a few years that citizens shouldn't own guns, or knives, or cars, or have internet access.
Or something else that they can't control but want to.
What if someone tried to do away with democracy in this country, pull off a military coup, and declare a dictatorship?
I'm sorry but Goverment has systematicly been takeing away & limiting our freedoms for the last 10 years. I do NOT see it stopping, it see it getting worse.
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Ok... Government is a disease that thinks it is its own cure.
Is a disease evil? Nope... just doing what it does best and that is to feed off the host and grow.
The constitution is vacine... but it doesn't kill the disease, it keeps it in check... So long as the disease of government is kept in check by the constitution then all is relatively well...
New virulent strains of the disease pop up now and then that try to get by the vacination that is the constitution... they try to modify the vaccine... Sometimes we as the host get lax in letting the vaccine.
We have people in government and busybodies in blue states that would tell us that the constitution needs to be interpreted in a more flexible way... one that would allow more power taken from the people and granted to the government..
like "free speech" is just a suggestion and "right to keep and bear arms" means only that bears can have guns and... "martial law means 3 terrorists in iowa"
The government has managed to be far more powerful than the founders ever intended.
you have to decide if you want more government or less...
At present we don't have much choice in the available viable parties... both want to be more powerful and control more of your life and take more of your money... one is moving toward it and the other is sprinting.
lazs
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The constitution is vacine... but it doesn't kill the disease, it keeps it in check... So long as the disease of government is kept in check by the constitution then all is relatively well...
That there be signature material!
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to be honest... I don't know if that is an original thought or one I have heard somewhere over the decades. It is how I feel tho.
lazs
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They have no signifigant opposition.
Me and my garand think otherwise.
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what does your garand have to do with it?
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They have no signifigant opposition.
The hands of a skilled marksman can take a government apart should the need arise.
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For once, I have to say that I agree with every single word in Lazs's post, without exception. Well said.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The hands of a skilled marksman can take a government apart should the need arise.
Hmmm...would not the "other side" also have skilled marksmen? (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-043.gif)
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You're assuming that police and soldiers are mindless drones who do everything they are told to.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You're assuming that police and soldiers are mindless drones who do everything they are told to.
You're assuming they're not.
:noid
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I've said this before but perhaps it bears repeating. In our military, you swear to uphold the Constitution, not the President.
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:( doh.
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When you stop being the government of the country, then you will be required to bow to the new tenant.
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Lazs said it well. I would only add that we will not lose our freedoms through a military coup, but likely with the willing support of our fellow citizens, soldiers and police officers who are too busy, lazy or disinterested to appreciate what is being lost. With the help of a lazy, inadequate broadcast media (print does a better job, but you’d have to read more than the sports page and tempo/style sections).
“If ya ain’t guilty, what are you afraid of!”
“I think you have the right to say or do a lot of things -- sure -- but I think we can all agree that (insert disagreeable fringe opinion) crosses the line!”
“I need to feel more secure!”
I suppose this is just another, unavoidable risk that comes with democracy.
Charon
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Don't confuse the loss of rights with democracy.
The loss of rights comes from communism. Pure and simple.
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What is freedom?
What is being free?
Ultimately, every human being has freedom, as long as we are capable of generating individual thoughts free from self-imposed restrictions (aka religion), we can think freely. All other actions beyond what we think, our inner thoughts, are controlled by laws that the people determine to be necessary.
If we need to have national identification cards, and we the people decide it to be so, then let it be so.
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Ok, how do we stop it? How do we kill the disease? When, where is the line 'that's not to be crossed'? How much longer till our government is what we fear more than a terrorist with a rag on his head 15,000 miles away? Gent's are we already there?.
Judging by the posts and subject matter as of late.. who's a bigger threat to the american way of life and the constitution? Osama or Bush?
"They came after the Jews, and I was not a Jew, so I did not object.
They came after the Catholics, and I was not a Catholic, so I did not object.
They came after the trade unionists, and I was not a trade unionists, so I did not object.
Then they came after me and there was nobody left to object."
Those were the words of Rev. Martin Niemoeller. They were his explanation of why he spoke out against the Nazis. He spent eight years in concentration camps for leading Protestant church opposition to Adolph Hitler. The Nazis imprisoned him at Sachsenhausen in 1937 for criticizing the Third Reich. He was freed from Dachau in 1945 by US troops. He died at the age of 92 on March 6, 1984.
At what point is it legitimate to resist with force the encrochment of government? Nobody's gonna call 'shenanigans' and start a revolution because of a building permit or a grass cops. Nobody's gonna revolt and take up arms becuase of a speed limit or seatbelt law.
But when do we say 'enough'? After they've incrementally removed our means to resist?
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Originally posted by Yeager
What is freedom?
What is being free?
Ultimately, every human being has freedom, as long as we are capable of generating individual thoughts free from self-imposed restrictions (aka religion), we can think freely. All other actions beyond what we think, our inner thoughts, are controlled by laws that the people determine to be necessary.
If we need to have national identification cards, and we the people decide it to be so, then let it be so.
Freedom is that instant between when someone tells you to do something and when you decide how to respond. It's the moments after that that decide your fate.
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My line is clearly drawn in the sand for all to see.
It is the next piece of anti-gun legislation. I am willing to bring the whole thing down over that.
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Freedom is that instant between when someone tells you to do something and when you decide how to respond. It's the moments after that that decide your fate.
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Might I suggest setting up a scenario editor in your minds eye and playing through all the plausible situations and deciding ahead of time what your response will be. That way you can have your fate decided well in advance and avoid the nastiness of the moment.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
At what point is it legitimate to resist with force the encrochment of government? Nobody's gonna call 'shenanigans' and start a revolution because of a building permit or a grass cops. Nobody's gonna revolt and take up arms becuase of a speed limit or seatbelt law.
But when do we say 'enough'? After they've incrementally removed our means to resist?
Good points. Good question.
What concerns................no, hell...........scares the crap out of me is the lulling and simplicity of how our rights are being slowly, but surely eroded and taken away, one by one. Very smart, very simple. If you tryed to pass a lump sum bill including the small laws/restrictions and rights being taken away in one package it would cause a national uprising. No doubt. By sniping them one at a time it is viewed by a lot as a "no biggy".
Very few seem to be able to view the big picture of what is happening in the last few years. Everyone has been lulled by the fast pace, big bucks, big houses, 'don`t rock my boat' society.
Laws are very rarely passed by the people anymore. Let`s face it...most laws are put into place by lobbying by big money organizations. In other words, they are bought. We are falling for it and doing nothing while we are selling ourself out.
The youth are being taught less and less about the founding of this country and the importance of the constitution.
When the importance no longer exists, the constitution might as well be null and void. It can and will be changed at will.
If viewing things from some other place than through my rectum puts me in the 'Tinfoil Hatters" group....sign me up and issue my membership card.
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Lol, this cracks me up. We are the government. We decide who makes the decision. You all make it sound like it's some entity we have no control over.
The problem is no one takes the time to get involved. It's like those union members who complain about the union but I never see one of them at the union meetings.
If you are going to sit on the bench and watch, don't complain when you lose the game.
To steal a quote, "there are two types of men, those who say "I can't", and those who say "I can", both are right, which one are you?"
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That was the idea Sixpence. But we ain't in Kansas anymore.
The government has grown beyond control.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Don't confuse the loss of rights with democracy.
The loss of rights comes from communism. Pure and simple.
You're selling totalitarianism pretty short.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Lol, this cracks me up. We are the government. We decide who makes the decision. You all make it sound like it's some entity we have no control over.
Were you a part of the "We" group who decided that the taxpayers were going to be charged $600.00 for government project wire cutters?
Are you part of the "We" group who decided that Federal agencies could enter homes and private property becuse of gun ownership and trumped up warrants?
Maybe you are in the lesser group of "Wes' who decides to pay the aforementioned "grass cops" ,"hose cops" or maybe a part of the "We' who decided we needed laws and cops to enforce the laws concerning where one could park on his or her property. Is that the case?
Maybe you are one of the 'We" group who supports and passes the paint scheme and fence selection laws for his or her private property. Is that it?
More importantly , are you one of the "We' groups who are going to attempt to take mine and others firearms away because "We" decided "We" know what`s best for YOU?
Laws/restrictions are being bought and sold on a wholesale basis. Are you part of the "We" group supporting this?
I know damn well I am not. I have not been consulted.
That`s the problem. We, the people are being pushed aside and ran over because "We" know what`s good for YOU. We, the people are being sold out by Bend Over Bob`s. So Bob, where is the annual or monthly "We" meetings being held at now?
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I like, totally agree....totally like. In a total fashion.
Totally
Does that make me a totalitarion?
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Originally posted by Yeager
Might I suggest setting up a scenario editor in your minds eye and playing through all the plausible situations and deciding ahead of time what your response will be. That way you can have your fate decided well in advance and avoid the nastiness of the moment.
Well that would be fine if you could rely on some peramiters for your scenario editor. But if that pesky constitution/bill of rights keeps getting modified or changed in the name of more efficient law/terrorisim/drug enforcement, what does that do to your fate?
shamus
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Were you a part of the "We" group who decided that the taxpayers were going to be charged $600.00 for government project wire cutters?
That was my fault. Sorry. I thought was buying brake shoes for a C-130.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
That was my fault. Sorry. I thought was buying brake shoes for a C-130.
LOL You sure bought a powerfull load of brakes shoes. :)
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Were you a part of the "We" group who decided that the taxpayers were going to be charged $600.00 for government project wire cutters?
Are you part of the "We" group who decided that Federal agencies could enter homes and private property becuse of gun ownership and trumped up warrants?
Maybe you are in the lesser group of "Wes' who decides to pay the aforementioned "grass cops" ,"hose cops" or maybe a part of the "We' who decided we needed laws and cops to enforce the laws concerning where one could park on his or her property. Is that the case?
Maybe you are one of the 'We" group who supports and passes the paint scheme and fence selection laws for his or her private property. Is that it?
More importantly , are you one of the "We' groups who are going to attempt to take mine and others firearms away because "We" decided "We" know what`s best for YOU?
Laws/restrictions are being bought and sold on a wholesale basis. Are you part of the "We" group supporting this?
I know damn well I am not. I have not been consulted.
That`s the problem. We, the people are being pushed aside and ran over because "We" know what`s good for YOU. We, the people are being sold out by Bend Over Bob`s. So Bob, where is the annual or monthly "We" meetings being held at now?
How many town meetings have you been to to voice your concerns? My guess is none, how can you be consulted if you are not there? Fed up? Rally the troops, get involved. But it is evident you fall under that "I can't" category. That's too bad.
I think we are doing pretty well in America. Are we the perfect society? No, but when you find that utopia you have the freedom of choice to move there.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
How many town meetings have you been to to voice your concerns? My guess is none, how can you be consulted if you are not there? Fed up? Rally the troops, get involved. But it is evident you fall under that "I can't" category. That's too bad.
I think we are doing pretty well in America. Are we the perfect society? No, but when you find that utopia you have the freedom of choice to move there.
You are assuming facts not in evidence.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
How many town meetings have you been to to voice your concerns? My guess is none, how can you be consulted if you are not there? Fed up? Rally the troops, get involved. But it is evident you fall under that "I can't" category. That's too bad.
Then you would be making some very wrong assumptions Bob.
I could assume by your bend over views that you have expressed that would more likely fall in that catergory.
I think we are doing pretty well in America. Are we the perfect society? No, but when you find that utopia you have the freedom of choice to move there.
My ancestors did just that. It is called America. At that time government was ran by the people, not the opposite.
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well... hang has again gotten the gist of it and sixpense is lost in space..."we are the government"? sorry... we passed haveing much to do with our government decades ago...
but back to hangs question... when is enough enough? well... when the second amendment is taken from us... or the first... they are first and second for a reason and.... the government it afraid of totaly taking them from us (tho they would certainly like to and try to chip away at them every chance they get)
The second is our ONLY protection from them. We outnumber the toadies 10 to 1.... there are about 75-100 million gun owners in this country.... If only 10% of em said "bull... no more.. you want my guns then you better send in the waco killers" that would be 75,000,000 to 100,000,000 wacos except... now the ninjas would be outnumbered... drastically... even 1% of the gun culture and constitutionalists would be allmost a million ruby ridge scenarios.... no way they want that.
lazs
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Well, if you guys want to sit on the couch and cry, good luck to ya
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Originally posted by lazs2
even 1% of the gun culture and constitutionalists would be allmost a million ruby ridge scenarios.... no way they want that.
lazs
In fact, nobody really wants that, which is why those of us who value our freedoms work hard to keep them.
If we didn't, then the backlash would come, and a lot of people would die. Something to think about when railing at your neighborhood 'gun nut'. Like police, they're happiest when the situations that cause revolution/crime are prevented ahead of time so they never have to pull out their gear.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Well, if you guys want to sit on the couch and cry, good luck to ya
I think standing on the rooftops shouting would be more appropiate. You seem to missing that.
I would , however, prefer to be sitting on the couch instead of the position of being willingly bent over it, as you seem to be happy with.
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my opinion? we probly either won't have to do much or we will have no choice....
The intrusiveness of the government is going way faster than even the sixpenses of the country can handle... when he is in his nomex fire suit and helmet to drive to the store he might get it...
Or maybe while he is hooking up his safety harness in the shower it will come to him...
I think it will all implode and they will have to back off to a large degree... but... what really would be the catalyst is....
I really would like the second to be heard by the supremes after Bush puts another guy on...
If it goes our way... everything will get better on it's own.... if it goes the oppossite way.... well... then some of the less tolerant will take matters into their own hands.... the 10% or 1% scenario I spoke of.
or maybe.... it will be as simple as another gas shortage/power shortage $10 a gallon gasoline.... if that happens..... the soccer moms and mothers against drunk drivers and million mom marchers will be throwing enviromentalists and spotted owls into the furnace at gunpoint to make juice
lazs
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Well...you certainly have the tinfoil hatters talking in this thread.
lol
:noid :noid :noid
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yep... you would have to be pretty paranoid to think that government would take away peoples firearms or...
put a restriction say on the size of motorcycle you could own... tnat would be a real laugh huh?
what kinda wussie pink short wearing bunch of subjects would allow that crap?
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...and I've been listening for a few years now how "FREE" you are in the US. Reading this thread I'd say you better form your militia now.
LOL
:noid
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"At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever to reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freedom, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."
"I know the American people are much attached to their Government;-- I know they would suffer much for its sake;-- I know they would endure evil's long and patiently, before they would ever think of exchanging it for another. Yet, notwithstanding all this, if the laws be continually despised and disregarded, if their rights to be secure in their persons and property, are held by no better tenure than the caprice of a mob, the alienation of their affections from the Government is the natural consequence; and to that, sooner or later, it must come.
Here then, is one point at which danger may be expected." Abraham Lincoln, Jan 27, 1838.
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We had a lot less 'freedoms' before the Nixon administration than we do now. Primarily when it comes to surveillance. Wiretapping was virtually unrestricted back then.
More to the point, it comes down to the double edged sword of liberty vs security. When it changes from survailing and catching the 'bad guys' to survailing and imprisoning political opponents. That is when the line is crossed.
There are fundamental freedoms the government should not be allowed to infringe upon.
The freedom of speech and press (even if you make an bellybutton of yourself)
The privacy of out financial/health information.
The privacy of our homes.
The right to keep and bear arms. (an unarmed populous is nothing more than sheep)
The privacy of our communication (phone/email) without due process or just cause.
The last being the most difficult to work out in this modern age.
Am I afraid? No, we have survived this long with our freedoms in tact. I believe we will continue to survive.
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Much as I sometimes dislike "Wacko Wayne", things like this are the reason I continue to be a NRA member.
http://www.nraila.org/NEWS/READ/Releases.aspx?ID=6539
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
My line is clearly drawn in the sand for all to see. It is the next piece of anti-gun legislation. I am willing to bring the whole thing down over that.
(http://www.bluecorncomics.com/pics/mcveigh.jpg)
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Interesting analogy. :aok
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"But when do we say 'enough'? After they've incrementally removed our means to resist?"
This is what I want to know:
Why does the Federal government need to remove our means to resist? They're already in full control.
That's not to say I don't think the government is gradually eroding our rights. It is. That much is plain to see. However, I think that erosion of rights is due to misguided good intentions, rather than an evil plot to take over what they already control.
I think it's the sort of good intent that results from "I don't mind banning what I don't use anyway". Non gun-owners don't mind banning guns; city-dwellers who take the subway don't mind gas-guzzler taxes; people who've never been to court don't care if "due process" is whittled away. Somewhere along the way, as a nation we lost our determination to protect the rights we don't use as strongly as we protect the rights we use.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You are assuming facts not in evidence.
and yet, over many pages of campfire lamenting on the subject, not one of you has offered any.
it would seem those that are the most vociferous on the subject, democracy hasn't failed them, but they have failed democracy.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Interesting analogy. :aok
Indeed but I think he's the exception and not the rule.
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is torque a memeber of the communist party?
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There once was a guy named Weaver. Wife, 3 kids, cabin in Idaho. Had the misfortune of living close to an Aryan Nation camp. Weaver also had what was at the time he bought it a legal $50.00 shotgun. He sold it.. and sadly the guns original wood stock (not the barrell) was 3/8" too short for the new federal gun regs, it no longer qualified as a legal class 1 firearm.
No biggie.. just a class 2 form to fill out, a $5.00 tax due.
The BATF try to coerce this guy Weaver into infiltrating the Aryan Nation Camp for them. They threaten him with confiscation of his property on the basis of the illegal shotgun sale if he does not comply. Weaver tell's 'em to go to hell.
They arrest him. Charge him with the illegal sale of a class 2 firearm. Since the guy has no criminal record he's released on a $10,000 property bond and issued a summons to appear. Unfortunately, the date on the sumons was diffrent than the date on the court clerks rgister, and when the apperance date came up, Weaver was not there. An arrest warrant was issued.
The Weaver residence was put under close survelience. Ninjas. The eldest son, 14 years of age, and a family friend were investigating what his dog was barking at on the property one morning when both the dog and the kid were shot dead. The family friend returned fire, killing the ninja that shot the boy and the dog, and retreated to the cabin.
At this point there are over 400 federal agents in and around the Idaho hills surrounding the property. There are Air Force jets doing photo survelience.. the place is surrounded by humvees, APC's and law enforcement types.
Despite this, the father and the family friend recover the body of the boy and place him in the shed behind the house. The next morning, the father and the eldest daughter (16) leave the cabin to check on the body of the boy when they come under fire from a ninja sniper. The sniper wounds the father, they retreat towards the cabin.. the wife, holding (and nursing) a 10 month old baby girl catches the next sniper shot in the side of the head, spilling her brains across the cabins kitchen wall. The bullet also criticaly wounds the family friend.
With me so far.. ?? this is all for a $5.00 tax infringement; a trumped up charge to induce a citizen to rat out another. The government has spent more money on this one stakeout and frame that it did on the gathering of intel prior to the invasion of haiti.
Weaver was aquitted.
Death toll 3, 2 citizens and 1 ninja. This in not 'tinfoil hat' ****; it's fact.
For $5.00
Now, I ask again.. when do we, WHERE do we draw the line?
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Thanks hangtime! :aok
To answer....I don't know. I've recently considered buying some survivalist books after seeing the aftermath of a natural disaster recently but I'd probably go on some FBI watchlist and lose my security clearance at work.
EDIT:
This inspired me to research and this is a fascinating read on the events and later testimony.
http://www.libertysoft.com/liberty/features/weaver.html
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First, I think we can all agree that Power corrupts. Additionally power attracts corruptible people. There is no such thing as a "good" government, only the least offensive government.The solution is to shrink the government to the smallest size possible but no smaller. This is the platform of the Libertarian party. They are not just the "legalize pot" party as the Dems and GOP would have you believe, they are the party of liberty and freedom. Read the constitution...thats them.
There's not a dimes worth of difference between the Republicans and the Democrats. They're all out of control. The GOP borrows and spends and the Dems tax and spend. Vote Libertarian whenever possible...
Magoo
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Originally posted by Hangtime
There once was a guy named Weaver. Wife, 3 kids, cabin in Idaho. Had the misfortune of living close to an Aryan Nation camp. Weaver also had what was at the time he bought it a legal $50.00 shotgun. He sold it.. and sadly the guns original wood stock (not the barrell) was 3/8" too short for the new federal gun regs, it no longer qualified as a legal class 1 firearm.
No biggie.. just a class 2 form to fill out, a $5.00 tax due.
The BATF try to coerce this guy Weaver into infiltrating the Aryan Nation Camp for them. They threaten him with confiscation of his property on the basis of the illegal shotgun sale if he does not comply. Weaver tell's 'em to go to hell.
They arrest him. Charge him with the illegal sale of a class 2 firearm. Since the guy has no criminal record he's released on a $10,000 property bond and issued a summons to appear. Unfortunately, the date on the sumons was diffrent than the date on the court clerks rgister, and when the apperance date came up, Weaver was not there. An arrest warrant was issued.
The Weaver residence was put under close survelience. Ninjas. The eldest son, 14 years of age, and a family friend were investigating what his dog was barking at on the property one morning when both the dog and the kid were shot dead. The family friend returned fire, killing the ninja that shot the boy and the dog, and retreated to the cabin.
At this point there are over 400 federal agents in and around the Idaho hills surrounding the property. There are Air Force jets doing photo survelience.. the place is surrounded by humvees, APC's and law enforcement types.
Despite this, the father and the family friend recover the body of the boy and place him in the shed behind the house. The next morning, the father and the eldest daughter (16) leave the cabin to check on the body of the boy when they come under fire from a ninja sniper. The sniper wounds the father, they retreat towards the cabin.. the wife, holding (and nursing) a 10 month old baby girl catches the next sniper shot in the side of the head, spilling her brains across the cabins kitchen wall. The bullet also criticaly wounds the family friend.
With me so far.. ?? this is all for a $5.00 tax infringement; a trumped up charge to induce a citizen to rat out another. The government has spent more money on this one stakeout and frame that it did on the gathering of intel prior to the invasion of haiti.
Weaver was aquitted.
Death toll 3, 2 citizens and 1 ninja. This in not 'tinfoil hat' ****; it's fact.
For $5.00
Now, I ask again.. when do we, WHERE do we draw the line?
That`s one of the "don`t rock my boat" type intances I was talking about earlier. Most people in this country had forgotten this fiasco two days after it was national headlines. Ii have not forgotten it and many instances before and after this.
The one thing that was different about this instance is the fact that local folks and people from around the country , when they learned of this, rallied and came to the staging point. Feds be damned. Wrong is wrong. People actualy stood up and were standing in witness to prevent further BS. If it weren`t for that fact, I am sure that nobody in that place would have left alive and I am also certain that a total different picture would have been painted of the events that took place there..
It was too late for Randy`s wife and son, but at least people had had enough and got some cajones in the end. A little support when people are being ran over in these instances goes a long ways. That support is usualy absent because of fear and the "don`t rock my boat" attitude.
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Home Wreckers, Inc (http://elfie.org/~croaker/lawmastr.html)
There are many many many more examples of viscious attacks like this on the homes and lives of law abiding citizens.
The one thread running thru them all.. they are registered gun owners.
And they are under attack from the Federal Governemnt.
Why?
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Is this **** pissing anyone else off? Or is this just me?
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Try re-reading the Turner Diaries. It will give you strength and resolve. Right?
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This is America.. **** like this can't happen here right?
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(http://www.kittybean.com/images/stfu/troll.jpg)
its Vor!
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Originally posted by VOR
Try re-reading the Turner Diaries. It will give you strength and resolve. Right?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
There once was a guy named Weaver. Wife, 3 kids, cabin in Idaho. Had the misfortune of living close to an Aryan Nation camp. Weaver also had what was at the time he bought it a legal $50.00 shotgun. He sold it.. and sadly the guns original wood stock (not the barrell) was 3/8" too short for the new federal gun regs, it no longer qualified as a legal class 1 firearm.
No biggie.. just a class 2 form to fill out, a $5.00 tax due.
The BATF try to coerce this guy Weaver into infiltrating the Aryan Nation Camp for them. They threaten him with confiscation of his property on the basis of the illegal shotgun sale if he does not comply. Weaver tell's 'em to go to hell.
They arrest him. Charge him with the illegal sale of a class 2 firearm. Since the guy has no criminal record he's released on a $10,000 property bond and issued a summons to appear. Unfortunately, the date on the sumons was diffrent than the date on the court clerks rgister, and when the apperance date came up, Weaver was not there. An arrest warrant was issued.
The Weaver residence was put under close survelience. Ninjas. The eldest son, 14 years of age, and a family friend were investigating what his dog was barking at on the property one morning when both the dog and the kid were shot dead. The family friend returned fire, killing the ninja that shot the boy and the dog, and retreated to the cabin.
At this point there are over 400 federal agents in and around the Idaho hills surrounding the property. There are Air Force jets doing photo survelience.. the place is surrounded by humvees, APC's and law enforcement types.
Despite this, the father and the family friend recover the body of the boy and place him in the shed behind the house. The next morning, the father and the eldest daughter (16) leave the cabin to check on the body of the boy when they come under fire from a ninja sniper. The sniper wounds the father, they retreat towards the cabin.. the wife, holding (and nursing) a 10 month old baby girl catches the next sniper shot in the side of the head, spilling her brains across the cabins kitchen wall. The bullet also criticaly wounds the family friend.
With me so far.. ?? this is all for a $5.00 tax infringement; a trumped up charge to induce a citizen to rat out another. The government has spent more money on this one stakeout and frame that it did on the gathering of intel prior to the invasion of haiti.
Weaver was aquitted.
Death toll 3, 2 citizens and 1 ninja. This in not 'tinfoil hat' ****; it's fact.
For $5.00
Now, I ask again.. when do we, WHERE do we draw the line?
So a seat belt law leads to this? law and order lead to this?
Or was it an illegal act by the government?
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... Government is a disease that thinks it is its own cure.
Same could be said for religion...and when the two get together for some policy making...
Theocracy...not democracy.
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I had heard accounts the (undercover) federal agent pressured Weaver to sell the shotgun to him and had requsted Weaver do the shortening of its length as a condition of the sale. I was under the impression the barrel had been sawed off to under 18". Didn't realize stock length or overall length was a factor.
Notwithstanding the lack of wisdom by doing that, it sure seems like entrapment to me, law enforcement pressuring someone to break the law. Though not the tragic ending as in Weaver's situation, the same mindset was employed when Marion Barry was busted. I recall from news that Barry was very reluctant to bring out the contraband that day but was so hounded about it he finally did. Entrapment again.
Even here in Mobile a few years ago during Mardi Gras, undercover police dressed up as bums were going around bothering parade goers, asking for money. When a father with his kids and wife there told the bum to shove off, he was arrested and thrown in the paddy wagon. What the hell was that all about??? Entrapment.
Stupid? Yes. What gets me is why would anyone think up something like that in the first place. That coulda been you or me there. Is the lesson to just let bums pester your family at Mardi Gras and not tell them to go away? Guess so.
The good thing about it was that practice only happened that one year. It really makes me wonder what kind of mind thinks up these things, and for what purpose. The Mardi Gras incident is an example of the mindset at the time. The ones hassled by the undercover police were an average family in a "safe" family oriented area (no alcohol). Panhandling agressive bums had no business there.
That happened years ago (early 90s?). Hasn't happened since. I respect the police and think such strategies are misguided, albeit it may have been the Janet Reno influence trickling down. Hope that never happens again and will vote accordingly.
Les
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Originally posted by Sixpence
So a seat belt law leads to this? law and order lead to this?
Or was it an illegal act by the government?
I don't know. I'm a registered gun owner with 5 long guns and 17 hand guns. I've never been hassled by law enforcement about guns... in fact a shoot with a few officers. I was also taught that the cardinal rule of encounters with law enforcement is:
Be cooperative and STAY Alive. Grab a lawyer, sue, go to the media, pee in someone's cornflakes LATER.... but STAY ALIVE. Tough to get on top if you are DEAD. If you look out of your house and see Government employees with guns... don't wave any guns AT them. Do whatever they want and get even later. Weaver was an irresponsible dumboscar who got his family killed due to his lack of brains.
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Laz, hangtime, well said all around. Bravo! <
> even.
But Sixpence has a point as well.
This is "supposed to be" goverment of the people by the people for the people.
Its turned into goverment of the buerocracy, by the politcians, for the power brokers.
And we let it happen.
It started when we let them "Pay" people for doing their civic duty. Like being a congressman or senator.
It got worse when we let them get control of financing. WWII era legislation allowing
income tax withdrawel, etc gave them control.
its happened ever time another of our rights are eroded, and we do nothing.
If nothing else, accept they fact that they want us to be like sheep.
They want to tell us what do to, where to go, what we can have. And they want to shear us once a year of course.
Well stop being sheep, be a goat, be a llama, be a donkey be PO'd.
And be active!
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So jab... your point is that a government controling your life and taking your freedoms is not evil if it was done without evil intent?
Ok..Let's just say that the result is evil.. I don't really care what the intentions or lack thereof are.
as for Weaver... he knew his guns and gun laws... the feds tried to get him to saw off the barrel to an illegal length and... even tho he needed the money he told em no. He also knew what the legal overal length should be... he claims that the stack was further shorteded after he sold it...
I believe him...
In the Waco hearings... the ATF and FBI are caught time and time again in blatant lies. Huge ones that photgraphic proof points out... lie after lie.. after these two cases..
Whenever the FBI or ATF says anything that conflicts with the people they wish to arrest.... I gotta have some doubt about who is telling the truth... to me... their reputation was forever tarnished by these high profile events... it seems clear that they will say anthing to get out of trouble or make a case.
This is not good folks..
Vor... you would like "Unitended Consequences" much better than turner diaries... better written and without the racism. It is actualy a very good book. Even the critics admit that the historical aspects of gun control in this country were accurate in the book.
We are not supposed to be afraid of the government... they are supossed to be afraid of us.
If Waco Wayne had killed nothing but ATF agents then I would have had a lot more sympathy for him.
lazs
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I think it's the sort of good intent that results from "I don't mind banning what I don't use anyway". Non gun-owners don't mind banning guns; city-dwellers who take the subway don't mind gas-guzzler taxes; people who've never been to court don't care if "due process" is whittled away. Somewhere along the way, as a nation we lost our determination to protect the rights we don't use as strongly as we protect the rights we use.
Hear! Hear!
Charon
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
Do whatever they want and get even later.
There's a small flaw in that reasoning.
(http://www.nobelmann.com/old/history/holocost/image/auschwitz_c.jpg)
In Weavers case, there was no demand for surrender. No announcement that they were there to arrest anybody.
They just shot the dog and the kid, then killed his wife.
This is not a 'mistake'. It's Policy[/i].
Mayhaps you'd like to review the data, read the investigation transcripts and then have a look at similar 'smash and grab' raids.
Now, there's a 'terroist threat'. Ever notice that every single time we're 'under threat' our rights are abridged? Under the guize of the Patriot Act, more citizens than ever are getting their rights trampled.
Under the guize of 'local emergency' law abiding citizens homes were illegaly searched, legal weapons confiscated. Just happened in New Orleans.
Nice, how the government insures that every law abiding citizen in a disaster area is unarmed, sending a green light to the criminals that every person THEY see is defenseless.
Ok.. lets leave the gun issue issue for a moment. Anyone ever been through an FAA Ramp Check?
But hey, this is America. Couldn't happen here, right?
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Yep... when a half a dozen heavily aremed black clad ninjas smash down your door in the middle of the night and start shouting and shooting the pets and you (if you try to defend yourself)....
and then you find out that they were really your government and that the whole thing was because they thought that you were either...
(a) someone else or
(b) had not regestered (and paid the $200 tax) on some of your firearms.
You might think that they were being a little heavy handed..
When they tore your house apart and either didn't find anything or took away some firearms that you knew were legal and that became "machine guns" sometime between them taking em and the next time you seen em in court....
When you realize that not only will you pay the court costs and the $10,000 fine but that you will be sent to a federal prison for five years for your heinous crimes (bout four years longer than a repeat rapist or mugger) even tho you had never committed a crime in your life...
you might begin to think things were screwy.
lazs
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At my present income level it would take me 5 years to pay the fine, and that's with all my income.
Les
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"So jab... your point is that a government controling your life and taking your freedoms is not evil if it was done without evil intent?"
MY point was the people who fear the government taking over kinda miss the point--it already has. Plus I was hoping someone would provide a motive for the government's perceived need to oppress the people it already controls.
Oh, and do you by chance like your county Sheriff's office better than your local PD or the FBI or something?
J_A_B
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Don't confuse the loss of rights with democracy.
The loss of rights comes from communism. Pure and simple.
Uh, not quite.
Ever hear democracy discribed as four wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner?
Our freedoms in the U.S.A. are not unique because our government is founded on democratic principles. We are free because our incredibly thoughtfull founding fathers believed in inalienable rights and built them into our constitution. We are supposed to have individual freedoms that are protected from the tyrany of the majority. When these rights are diluted, the tyrany of democracy becomes real.
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No. Take a look at some of the basic characteristics of communism.
We are slowly adapting communistic principles. It would not fly if it had happened all at once. But over 100 years?
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Oh, and do you by chance like your county Sheriff's office better than your local PD or the FBI or something?
J_A_B
I hate LEOs who shouldn't *be* LEOs...
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Originally posted by Hangtime
There's a small flaw in that reasoning.
(http://www.nobelmann.com/old/history/holocost/image/auschwitz_c.jpg)
In Weavers case, there was no demand for surrender. No announcement that they were there to arrest anybody.
I tend to think he knew that there were guns outside his house. I tend to think he knew they was govement folks too. And comparing this to Aushwitz is over the top.... way messed up. Go visit the camp and then tell me some pudmunch on a ridge is the same thing. Guy was an idiot and he got his family killed.
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In some cases alot of the people to blame for some of the laws we have are the people who either vote for the laws themselves or vote elected individuals into office that ref;ects their views.
The gubbernment makes laws but it all starts at a core level somehwere and thats where it has to change.
I will not vote for anybody that is for taking guns away from private law abiding citizens. Everything else works out in the wash but my right to defend myself will not be infringed upon.
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Who voted to allow the police and NG to confiscate guns from folks protecting their own property in New Orleans?
Who voted to have the feds use 400 men and gestapo tactics to waste 3 lives to arrest a guy for not paying the 5 dollar tax on a shotgun whose butt stock was 5/8" too short?
Who voted to burn out the Dividans?
Who?
I tend to think he knew that there were guns outside his house. I tend to think he knew they was govement folks too. And comparing this to Aushwitz is over the top.... way messed up. Go visit the camp and then tell me some pudmunch on a ridge is the same thing. Guy was an idiot and he got his family killed.
Really? It's ok the government is not required to live by the laws it's empowered itself to enforce? The guy's up for a frame on a bull**** gun tax with a fifty dollar shotgun and it's HIS fault his family gets mowed down? His fault?
And explain to me HOW the methods employed aginst him differ from the Gestapo's? There's HUNDREDS of Americaqns right now in jail who's ONLY crime is possession of weapon or part of a weapon that under the express guarnetee of the Second Ammendement they should be allowed to have. There were no robberies, no buglaries.. just some guy with a WWII BAR or Thompson he inherited that didn't register it when the government said you must register such guns.
Over the top?
I'll tell yah what's 'over the top' is the 'blind eye' kiss off of a massive infringement of a citizens rights are as long as YOUR not the citizen having his brown eye probed by a Highway Patrol detail obstensibly 'checking for seatbelts'. When YOUR not the pilot that gets his plane grounded and his ticket pulled for not using FAA STC approved valve caps on his tire stems. When it's not YOUR home being tossed by ATF Nijas because some guy that knows you have a bunch of guns drops a dime to save his own bellybutton when he's being given the third degree for 10 round magazine desigined in 1940 for a gun that's been in the public domain since 1930. When it's not YOUR home entertainments system (as well as the rest of your property in and around your house, as well as your house) impounded because your 'unregistered' ham band/SSB Transceiver radio is plugged in when the feds stop by..
Yeah, as long as it ain't YOUR bellybutton the system's got ahold of, all's kewl here in America. 'The other dipwick deserves whut he got cause he's stupid.'
Over the top my ass!!
"Bah.. never happen here.. this is America!!"
It's happening here, pal. Happening NOW.
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First thing Hitler went after where the peoples guns, wonder why?
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"This year will go down in history. For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
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Attributed to Hitler. Rousing, but entirely bogus. No such speach was ever given. Weimar Republic forced the registration of guns, the Nazi's then locked down the transfer of all weapons then confiscated all 'militarily useful' weapons.
Sorry. ;) Close, but no cigar.
The two most significant federal statutes controlling firearms in the civilian population are the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968. The 1934 Act established strict registration requirements and a transfer tax on machine guns and short-barreled long guns. The 1968 Act prohibits mail-order sales and the interstate sales of firearms, prohibits transfers to minors, limits access to "new" assault weapons, and sets forth penalties and licensing requirements for manufacturers, importers, and dealers.
The Gun Control Act of 1968, as amended, contains the principal federal restrictions on domestic commerce in small arms and ammunition. The statute requires all persons manufacturing, importing, or selling firearms as a business to be federally licensed; prohibits the interstate mail-order sale of all firearms; prohibits interstate sale of handguns generally, sets forth categories of persons to whom firearms or ammunition may not be sold (such as persons under a specified age or with criminal records); authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to prohibit the importation of non-sporting firearms; requires that dealers maintain records of all gun sales; and establishes special penalties for the use of a firearm in the perpetration of a federal drug trafficking offense or crime of violence.
Transactions between persons "not engaged in the business" are not covered by the Act.
These transactions and other matters such as possession, registration, and the issuing of licenses to the owners of firearms maybe covered by state laws or local ordinances. It also prohibits federal firearm licensees from selling or delivering a rifle or shotgun to a person under 18 years of age, or a handgun to a person under 21 years of age.
Supplementing federal law, many state firearm laws are stricter than federal law. For example, some states require permits to obtain firearms and impose a waiting period for firearm transfers. Other states are less restrictive, but state law cannot preempt federal law. Federal law serves as the minimum standard in the United States.
The following principal changes have been enacted to the Gun Control Act since 1968.
The "Firearms Owners Protection Act," McClure-Volkmer Amendments (P. L. 99-308, 1986) eases certain interstate transfer and shipment requirements for long guns, defines the term "engaged in the business," eliminates some record-keeping requirements, and bans the private possession of machine guns not legally owned prior to 1986.
The "Armor Piercing Ammunition" Ban (P. L. 99-408, 1986, amended in P. L. 103-322, 1994) prohibits the manufacture, importation and delivery of handgun ammunition composed of certain metal substances and certain full-jacketed ammunition.
The Federal Energy Management Improvement Act of 1988 (P. L. 100-615) requires that all toys or firearm look-alikes have a blazed orange plug in the barrel, denoting that it is a non-lethal imitation.
The Undetectable Firearms Act (P. L. 100-649, 1988), also known as the "plastic gun" legislation, bans the manufacture, import, possession, and transfer of firearms not detectable by security devices.
The Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1990 (P. L. 101-647), as originally enacted, was ruled unconstitutional by the U. S. Supreme Court (United States v. Lopez, 514 U. S. 549 (1995), April 26, 1995). The Act prohibited possession of a firearm in a school zone (on the campus of a public or private school or within 1,000 feet of the grounds). In response to the Court's finding that the Act exceeded Congress's authority to regulate commerce, the 104 th Congress included a provision in P. L. 104-208 that amended the Act to require federal prosecutors to include evidence that the firearms "moved in" or affected interstate commerce.
The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, 1993 (P. L. 103-159) requires that background checks be completed on all nonlicensed person seeking to obtain firearms from federal firearm licensees.
The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (P. L. 103-322) prohibits the manufacture or importation of semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices (for a 10-year period). In the case of large capacity ammunition feeding devices, the ban on importation applies to those devices manufactured after September 1994.
This Act provides an exception for the transfer, sale, or possession of semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices lawfully possessed on the date of enactment. This Act also bans the sale or transfer of handguns and handgun ammunition to, or possession of handguns and handgun ammunition by, juveniles (under 18 years of age) without prior written consent from the juvenile's parent or legal guardian; exceptions related to employment, ranching, farming, target practice, and hunting are provided.
In addition, the Act disqualifies persons under court orders related to domestic abuse from receiving a firearm from any person or possessing a firearm. It also enhances penalties for the criminal use of firearms and makes other changes to existing law.
Federal Domestic Violence Gun Ban (the Lautenberg Amendment, in the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act for FY1997, P. L. 104-208) prohibits persons convicted of misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence from possessing firearms and ammunition. The ban applies regardless of when the offense was adjudicated: prior to, or following enactment. It has been challenged in the federal courts, but these challenges have been defeated. (See CRS Report RL31143, Firearms Prohibitions and Domestic Violence Convictions: The Lautenberg Amendment, by T. J. Halstead.)
The Omnibus Consolidated and Emergency Appropriations Act, 1999 (P. L. 105-277), requires all federal firearm licensees to offer for sale gun storage and safety devices. It also bans firearm transfers to, or possession by, nonimmigrants who have overstayed their the terms of their temporary visa.
The Treasury, Postal and General Government Appropriations Act (P. L. 106- 58) requires that background checks be conducted when former firearm owners seek to redeem a firearm that they sold to a pawnshop.
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People like Clinton get voted into office and then folks like Reno get appointed and they then take full responsibility for what happens.
:)
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Bush Sr lost his second election thanks to the Brady bill.
And I haven't seen Bush Jr do a damned theing about repealing the '68 or '34 acts.
So, does that make 'em as guilty as Clinton, or just as culpabale?
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+10 points for Nazism references
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I knew Hitler didn't actually say that. But I posted it anyway.
Oh yeah, my sister reminded me of a good real quote:
"A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns."
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Bush Sr lost his second election thanks to the Brady bill.
lol, no he didn't, that had nothing to do with it
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losing 10-30 million votes had nothing to do with it? that is what the gun culture amounts to. the hard core guys who will vote like wolf. (and me)
jab... government is evil... it seeks power because it is compossed of people who seek power... it grows tenticles and each tenticle seeks power... every increase in power is a corresponding decrease in the wealth and freedom of the citizens it governs... it is that simple. and....
yes.. I trust local cops and sherriff more than federal ones... If you were to watch the hearings on ruby ridge and Waco you would obseve blatant lieing by the ATF and FBI at every level... these were lies that covered up huge crimes and screw ups.
I think that based on the obvious proof of those hearings that it would be impossible to convict anyone based on FBI or ATF testimony that was not corraborated by some other form of evidense such as independent film or recordings.
It should be the reverse... those agencies should have our respect... they should never ever never get caught in a lie and when they do... the ones caught should be imprisoned for many many years. Instead... we all now just assume that they are lieing and our only recourse is that we know they will get sloppy about it.... most of the time..
I don't believe any law enforcement officers... state local or fed.. should be punished unduly for honest mistakes or bad judgement in a life or death situation.... I do believe that they should be hung from the power poles for lieing tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't believe any law enforcement officers... state local or fed.. should be punished unduly for honest mistakes or bad judgement in a life or death situation.... I do believe that they should be hung from the power poles for lieing tho.
lazs
I believe that same power pole should be kept in place for those that set up snipers for women and children also.
I envy those here who have good law enforcement officers. We used to have, way back in the day. Now it`s a pretty well known fact that if you are working for an S.O. or a P.D. somewhere and you are a total screw up and get canned, you can come to our fair county and get a job.
When I was younger we had some great law enforcement around here. One sheriff who served many terms was a giant of a man. He was probably about as fair as you could get. He was also pure business when it came to how his department was ran and how his officers conducted themselves.
When I was a teen we had one deputy who patrolled our area that was a welcome sight for us when he would pull up. He spent a lot of time with us, checking out our latest street rods or bikes. (He owned both himself) We always enjoyed seeing him coming and he was always giving us some good tips on what to do to get a little more HP, etc out the cars and bikes.
I never see a teen around here BS`n one of the deputies anymore. For good reason. Usualy when they see a deputy coming they are being jacked up for something. That are if they are a female teen they can expect a good session of flirting and eyeballing . Not much of a stretch to figure out why the teens around here are a tad bit on the angry, viscious, disrepectfull side.
Wearing the badge should be a life long commitment to the people who employee you, the citizen. It should also be worn with pride and integrity.
I don`t see that much around here anymore.
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Originally posted by lazs2
losing 10-30 million votes had nothing to do with it? that is what the gun culture amounts to
You have any facts to back that up? He lost the election because of the economy and the S&L debacle. Remember the people in tears after being swindled out of their life's savings? Remember the live's ruined? Remember his son? The one running that S&L who gave out loans to all his buddies who never payed them back? Remember him in front of the congressional committee questioning him? Remember him laughing at them? Remember the cost of the bailout?
Well, the voters remembered those things and the economy. Your own tin foil hat cause is rediculous
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When Clintons democrats passed the assault weapons ban the democratic party lost power the following election and have not regained it since.
the vast majority of democrats who surivived the initial power shift stayed under the sheets when the ban expired.
Only a fools fool would contest this basic reality.
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I think Bush Sr would have lost even with the "gun vote". With the gun vote Bush probably would have been able to keep things close in 1992, rather than getting buried in a landslide.
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"Read my lips" is what sunk Sr.
shamus
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When Bush Sr. turned his back on the NRA that's when I turned my back on him.
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Lets not forget the Perot factor
The 1992 Presidential Election
In 1992 Bill Clinton was elected president with 43.0% of the vote, the fourth lowest percentage in American history. Perhaps more strikingly, he also won only a single state -- his home state of Arkansas -- with a majority of the vote. In fact, the majority of voters in 49 out of 50 states opposed the candidate who collected all of their state's electoral college votes. As shown in Appendix 1, most states were won by less than 45% of the vote, ranging down to Clinton's victory in Nevada with 37%.
These plurality victories were the result of Ross Perot's strong presidential challenge. Despite pre-election polls that demonstrated he had little chance to win, Perot gained 19% of the national vote and won over 15% of the vote in 38 states, ranging up to 30% in Maine and a second place finish in Utah with 27%. Perot's vote was greater than the margin of victory in 49 states, including the 15 states decided by less than 5%. (See Appendix 1.) Perot was within 15% of capturing 8 states and 20% of capturing 12 more, including such large states as Texas, Ohio and Wisconsin.
Many potential independent presidential contenders must be weighing how well Perot would have run if he had stayed in the race throughout 1992 and if polls had shown that he a credible chance to win. A study in the Roper Center's publication The Public Perspective, based on data from the American National Election Study, concluded that Perot was the favorite of a clear-cut plurality of voters, but that many of his supporters chose not to vote for him because of his standing in the polls.
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Viva la revolution!!
The Federal Government must go down!!
(And this from an employee of said govt)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Over the top my ass!!
"Bah.. never happen here.. this is America!!"
It's happening here, pal. Happening NOW.
Look man... compairing Aushwitz to Ruby Ridge is so fluffied up that I can't even believe that I'm responding to this rant.
Aushwitz? You think THAT'S an apt anology for the United States Government? Sure there are problems, sure there are abuses. Always have been and always will be. But please take a can of beans, some tinfoil, and a shotgun, go sit in the woods and leave the Jews and Aushwitz out of it. It's insulting.
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
Look man... compairing Aushwitz to Ruby Ridge is so fluffied up that I can't even believe that I'm responding to this rant.
Aushwitz? You think THAT'S an apt anology for the United States Government? Sure there are problems, sure there are abuses. Always have been and always will be. But please take a can of beans, some tinfoil, and a shotgun, go sit in the woods and leave the Jews and Aushwitz out of it. It's insulting.
What is done to all the American people by those ****heads in DC is insulting
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U.S. population - 290,000,000
U.S. military - 1,427,000
Somehow, I don't think the government can do much.
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Originally posted by AdmRose
U.S. population - 290,000,000
U.S. military - 1,427,000
Somehow, I don't think the government can do much.
You say this now. That number becomes more relevent when you are fighting an un-armed population.
In additon concentration camps is one extreme of the tangable argument. For those of you who don't think it could happen let me remind you of the Jap-Americans during WWII. Granted they weren't gassed or baked in ovens, there freedomes were abbirdged. It is yet another extreme example in an entirly tangable discussion.
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What is it, Half of all Americans are gun owners? Or was it there was enough guns to go around for half of all Americans?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
You say this now. That number becomes more relevent when you are fighting an un-armed population.
In additon concentration camps is one extreme of the tangable argument. For those of you who don't think it could happen let me remind you of the Jap-Americans during WWII. Granted they weren't gassed or baked in ovens, there freedomes were abbirdged. It is yet another extreme example in an entirly tangable discussion.
1/4 of all American adults own guns. There are enough guns in America owned by private citizens to give every American adult one.
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I still haven't seen a motive for why the government needs to clamp down on the people it already controls. The only possible motive from that line of thought is they're afraid of a potential revolt, which creates a sort of comical situation of dual-paranoia (citizens who don't trust a government that doesn't trust its citicens).
I don't think government is inherentently evil; but rather the evil results from misguided and bungled attempts to do good. I laugh at the thought that something like the 1934 and 1968 gun laws were passed so that the evil government could better oppress the people. No, the people who passed those laws wanted to make the country a better place.
In many cases the end result is still bad. The end result isn't what I'm interested in here. I'm just wondering if the people worried about the government--the "tinfoil hat crowd"--might be fixated on the wrong enemy. It's not the evil government who wants to take away their rights, but their fellow citizens who "know better".
In other words, don't treat the symptoms; look for the cause.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Shamus
"Read my lips" is what sunk Sr.
shamus
Bingo... that and Perot.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
It's not the evil government who wants to take away their rights, but their fellow citizens who "know better".
In other words, don't treat the symptoms; look for the cause.
J_A_B
Seems to me the people who knew better in Great Brittan and Australia are now reaping what they sowed.
In a round about way anyway.
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Point of interest.
Warsaw Gehtto. Less than 200 insurgents armed with fewer than 50 weapons held off a German Army for 3 weeks. They were burned out, not defeated by force of arms. They inflicted no fewer than 4,000 casualties on their armed opressors.
They were burned out. Literally. Torched alive. Ala Waco.
But they held out longer than France. Longer than Belgium. Longer than Holland. Longer than the Czechs, who had the best equipped army on the continent.
I suspect that should push come to shove, the people of this country could do at least as well.
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Originally posted by AdmRose
1/4 of all American adults own guns. There are enough guns in America owned by private citizens to give every American adult one.
Wich is why gun owners apose every new effort to restrict rights. As soon as they have a list of all gun owners in America those that wish harm know the people to hit first.....if they dont take them away democraticly that is.
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Works both ways.
How our congressmen and senators vote on gun issues is a matter of very public record.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
My line is clearly drawn in the sand for all to see.
It is the next piece of anti-gun legislation. I am willing to bring the whole thing down over that.
Absolutely correct. The goal of any govt. who cant work within the rules of our constitution is to take away our ability to revolt. Anti gun legislation is the next step. I have been dreading the next terrorist strike where people beg the govt. to take away our weapons.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Absolutely correct. The goal of any govt. who cant work within the rules of our constitution is to take away our ability to revolt. Anti gun legislation is the next step. I have been dreading the next terrorist strike where people beg the govt. to take away our weapons.
Yeah... it might make them come up with something scary like the Pariot Act.
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jab... you are missing the point... most believe that the gun control act of 1934 was used to give the BATF tresury beurocracy somthing to do after prohibition was repealed...
Once prohibition was repealed there were very few if any incidents of criminals using machine guns.... millions were regestered after the act and many just "disapeared" there never really was a threat to the American people by machine gun owners..
The reasons for the laws were because of a threat to the government... you can't build government without making laws... and... I believe that those who make gun control laws do it with evil intent... and they are the government.
finestein banned .50 calibers because they could penetrate an armored limmo... the people she is suppossedly protecting don't ride around in armored limmos...
she and her bottom feeder ilk do. Why do you not think it is evil that they would want to be the only people in America that are armed (or have armed guards)?
lazs