Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kurfürst on September 27, 2005, 05:32:38 AM
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On April 22 1945 Luftwaffenkommando West reported the following fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria:
B-4 = 350,000 liters
C-3 = 284,000 liters
J-2 = 1,897,000 liters
On April 12, `45, Lw.Kdo. West had 42 FW 190As on-hand (Stab/JG300, II./JG300, Stab/NAGr.13), and 197 Bf 109s, (1./NAGr.13, 2./NAGr.13, 3./NAGr.13, Stab/JG53, II./JG53, III./JG53, IV./JG53, III./JG300, IV./JG300,1./NJG11).
110 of these Bf 109s were from Stab/JG53, II./JG53, III./JG53, IV./JG53.
III/JG 53 and IV/JG 53 had 73 Bf 109s with 75 fighter pilots on hand. These two Gruppe of JG 53 had been cleared for 1.98ata in 21 March 1945 by OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45.
In addition, KG 51 could muster 16 Me 262s, and 1.(F)/100 five Ar234s, and various other types (Ju88/188, Ju87, FW 189, Bf110)
Fuel situation of the Axis-Italian ANR units at the same period :
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1126472785_anr_fuel1945.jpg)
Aircrafts on hand,the Order of Battle of the ANR during 22nd April 1945 :
Bf 109s
7 x G-6s
27 x G-14s
39 x G-10
3 x K-4s
2 x G-12 trainers
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Isn't J-2 jet fuel? The table shows ANR was using this fuel?
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AR 234s in Italy were using J-2, I just left it included for the sake of completeness.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
AR 234s in Italy were using J-2, I just left it included for the sake of completeness.
So the C3 shipped to Italy must have been used by the Fw190s in the LW unit NSGr 9.
Now this is a nice start on the German fuel situation. When can we expect data for the other areas > Luftflotte 4, Luftwaffen General Norwegen, Luftflotte Reich, Luftwaffenkommando East Prussia, Luftwaffenkommando Courland.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
So the C3 shipped to Italy must have been used by the Fw190s in the LW unit NSGr 9.
Because...? Funny I recall NSGr 9 operated mainly Ca 314, Fw 58, CR.42, Ju 87 with only a few 190s received in January 1945.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Because...? Funny I recall NSGr 9 operated mainly Ca 314, Fw 58, CR.42, Ju 87 with only a few 190s received in January 1945.
It is 1945 you are giving Italian fuel data for, is it not?
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
AR 234s in Italy were using J-2, I just left it included for the sake of completeness.
I see - the fuel stocks in the table are also being used by LW units based in Italy.
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Looks like a lot of C3 fuel but lets see how much fuel that really was.
That 284,000l of C3 was 6762l for each of the 42 Fw190As. That was enough for only 10-11 sorties (internal tank) for each of the Fw190As (6762/640), with the tanks going dry.
If the 42 Fw190As carried drop tanks, then it was only enough for 7 sorties for each of the Fw190As (6762/940)), with the tanks going dry.
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42 Fw 190 & 197 Bf 109 (1:4.69)
284Kl C-3 & 350Kl B-4 (1:1.23)
If only the Fw 190's are receiving C-3, then they can fly about 4 times more sorties than the 109's. And that's not counting all the other a/c types which would be using B-4...
I think it is clear that there was C-3 being supplied to 109 units.
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Indeed. Milo asserts that every time the fuel tanks would be dried out, including the aux. 118liter rear fuel tanks of the 190A-8. I doubt they would push luch that hard, sorties were relatively short, especially considering the distances in 1945. Fly there, bomb/shoot down that, return base.
Moreover it has to be kept in mind that this is the immiditate fuel storage on airfields alone - thats not where the bulk of fuel is kept, but from where aircraft are being directly refueled from.
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New research has uncovered that the late war Luftwaffe ran on moonshine...brewed by these two brothers, in the bavarian alps:
http://home.nycap.rr.com/tomtomtom/hillbilly.jpg
They escaped capture in 1945 and now reside in Arkansas.
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"Thats it then, I want mine to be able to do that!!! :D " ;)
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Indeed. Milo asserts that every time the fuel tanks would be dried out, including the aux. 118liter rear fuel tanks of the 190A-8. I doubt they would push luch that hard, sorties were relatively short, especially considering the distances in 1945. Fly there, bomb/shoot down that, return base.
Moreover it has to be kept in mind that this is the immiditate fuel storage on airfields alone - thats not where the bulk of fuel is kept, but from where aircraft are being directly refueled from.
Kurfurst are you really that dense between the ears?
One does know how much fuel would be used by any a/c on a sortie, so the best way to illustrate how much C3 there was, is to put it in terms as completely emptying the tanks.
Now some words by Butch:
"The main problem was that deliveries were quite erratic, sometimes it took three weeks or more to have the fuel delivered to units !!! Moreover beginning in february there were nearly no more fuel produced and stocks were depleted by mid April as far as i remember. From then on the units had to live with what was still available."
So much for immediate replenishing of the base's fuel stock.
"B4/C3 could not be kept for long at this time of war because of lack of additives, Gum appeared quite fast proving troublesome especialy with C3. I have some fuel nalysis summary around. it was not much of a problem when considering low stock since it was consumed quite fast, but stockpiling large amount would have proven quite troublesome".
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Hey Milo,
your personel attacks dont make quotes from Butch more credible!
Butch for sure have much datas, even he got proven as wrong. And if i read a 'as far as i remember' in a sentence, i would be even more carefully!
I dont have many original datas regarding the fuelsituation, but at the time when the allieds still was outside of west germany, i dont found a hint of fuelfroblems.
You remeber the "Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion, in 14 March 1945"?? It clearly state that they had enough C3 fuel to run the DB605DC engines (they dont had to rebuild them to DB engines).
Thats only 2 month before the end!
Anyway, we still dont have enough datas to give a exact answer, but personel attacks and quotes from someone else without datas dont help to solve anything.
Edit: btw, even Butch state that in mid April the groups was on their own(before they got fuel). Thats some weeks before the end. So Butchs quote dont say anything again Kurfürsts post.
Greetings, Knegel
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Originally posted by Knegel
You remeber the "Reparatur-Anweisung 2. Nachtrag Nr. 191/345 from des Reichministers für Rüstung und Kriegproduktion, in 14 March 1945"?? It clearly state that they had enough C3 fuel to run the DB605DC engines (they dont had to rebuild them to DB engines).
Thats only 2 month before the end!
There is something i have to verify pertaining to this document, as i have another one stating that DC/ASC are to be delivered at 1.80ata boost contrary to previous orders but i'm not sure if it was published before of after 191/345.
The problem was not the lack of C3, there were C3 being produced along with B4. Note that they dropped the addition of additives preventing formation of Gum which account for troubles using both B4 and C3 after they have stayed a few weeks in tanks. That was a problem encountered by the team in charge of the captured a/c after the war btw.
By 1945 airfields had usualy a few days worth of fuel counting a couple of sorties a day. Problem was that deliveries were erratic, movement of fuel was done by night only and sometimes took a long time. Some deliveries taking weeks to arrive.
Fuel production was virtually finished by february 1945 and the strategic stocks were used and they lasted until mid April.
C3 use for all units was virtually impossible due to the amount of C3 fuel being delivered first to the 190 units and then to the 109 with ASC/DC engines.
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Originally posted by butch2k
There is something i have to verify pertaining to this document, as i have another one stating that DC/ASC are to be delivered at 1.80ata boost contrary to previous orders but i'm not sure if it was published before of after 191/345.
AFAIK those doc is from early march state that only in the Kassel DB plant should the DC/ASC engines be delivered at 1,8 ata, and there were quite a few other DB factories. Considering there were ca 4200 K-4/G10 built, it would mean at least 6-7000 or more 605D engines produced. I doubt a single factory could manage that.
In any case, both would be superseeded by the OKLs orders from 21st MArch to set engines to 1,98ata. Regardless of the factory setting, setting the DC engine to 1,98ata was a matter of seconds by adjusting the boost regulator.
BTW I wonder why Milo missed the fact on butch board that if half the 109s would rely on B4, and the other half and all 190s would rely on C3, with 1 sortie per each day with 50% of the aircraft particating, even the airfield supplies would last long enough until the end of war... appreantly he also missed the part these supplies refered only to the stocks at airfields, ie. distanced 100m from the parking planes and ready to be used up.
Supplies from the high command is another thing, but we know these planes flew till the very end of the war (ie. Hartman scorred his 352nd on 8th May 1945), and its a fact the Italian fuel stocks WERE replanished even in the end of April. Regardless the immidiate fuel supplies were aduquate anyway until the last days.
I think its beyond reasonable doubt that they used C3 fuel. Objections arent supported by ANY evidence at all, its more like guerilla fighting of a few desperates left.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
AFAIK those doc is from early march state that only in the Kassel DB plant should the DC/ASC engines be delivered at 1,8 ata, and there were quite a few other DB factories. Considering there were ca 4200 K-4/G10 built, it would mean at least 6-7000 or more 605D engines produced. I doubt a single factory could manage that.
I don't think were are speaking of the same doc, mine is a T-Amt doc covering conversion from DB to DC and back stating that delivered DC are to be set back to 1.80ata.
Do you have the reference of yours at hand ?
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Looks more like those two were born Akansas rednecks Squire...
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Originally posted by butch2k
I don't think were are speaking of the same doc, mine is a T-Amt doc covering conversion from DB to DC and back stating that delivered DC are to be set back to 1.80ata.
Do you have the reference of yours at hand ?
Mine is Niederschrift Nr 6717 from mid-January and states the engines from Kassel are delivered at 1,8ata, which is not much info considering until finishing the operational trials with the test Gruppe, 1,98 was suspended at that time.
What is the date of yours and what does it say exactly?
But point again - correct me if I am wrong - the DC engine could be set to either 1,8 or 1,98ata in a matter of minutes, so I would guess they were set to 1,98ata at unit level if authorization was granted, ie. JG 27 and 53.
Correct?
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Hi,
"But point again - correct me if I am wrong - the DC engine could be set to either 1,8 or 1,98ata in a matter of minutes, so I would guess they were set to 1,98ata at unit level if authorization was granted, ie. JG 27 and 53."
This depends of the way they did deliver the engines. If they got the 'Grundeinstellung'(basic setting) 1.8ata, they had to adjust the ignition and use other sparkplugs, next to the ata adjusting, but all this isnt a problem.
With Grundeinstellung 1.98ata but 1.8ata used, the engine had less power.
Actually there isnt a coherence between the DB605DC 1.8 or 1.98 and the fuelsituation. DB605DC´s did need C3 fuel anyway.
On the other hand there is no reason to deliver DC engines, if they wasnt allowed to use 1.98ata, DB engines with C3 or B4 + MW50 did the same job. To deliver a engine, which dont bring a poweradvantage, but cant use B4 fuel, would be very strange!
Greetings, Knegel
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Knegel, I can help it he does not have the comprehension to see what I was illustrating. If I would have used the 'I' word, then that would be an attack. What I said is not considered an attack where I come from. I will believe Butch since he is not bigoted and biased to support an agenda. Do you think Kurfy would post such quotes which casts doubts on his theory?
No Kurfy, I did not miss Butch's 'WHAT IF' and that is what it was, a 'what if'. The Fw190A units would have priority on the irratic deliveries of C3 or are you going to have 190s sitting on the ground to supply a penny pocket of 109s? Butch even used a partial fuel load for the 190s and a full fuel load for the 109s, which will skew the numbers. He also did not include any drop tank use in his 'what if'.
The servicable 190s outnumbered the servicable 109s in the whole LW by a ratio of 5:4.
and its a fact the Italian fuel stocks WERE replanished even in the end of April.
Italian stock was replenished at the end of April? Not what your partial chart says.
B4: April 23 - 147,000l, May 1 - 0.0l
C3: April 23 - 116,000l, May 1 - 7000l
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Yep.
Regarding Grundeinstellung 1,98/1,8, I think its a bit theoretical. It would refer to the DC engine set to 1,98ata, but when no MW 50 was used, only fuel. The only scenario I can think of is the 109Ks ability to use the MW tank as fuel tank, when of course MW50 could be carried/used. Or perhaps brand-new engines that were not yet run-in (5 hours), and were not advised to use MW boost yet.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Italian stock was replenished at the end of April? Not what your partial chart says.
B4: April 23 - 147,000l, May 1 - 0.0l
C3: April 23 - 116,000l, May 1 - 7000l
Bold text hardly makes your claims more credible, Milo.
Regarding the claims that B-4 run out, I wonder how you made up that. Certainly not from the chart I posted, which doesnt give data for May 1 for B4 at all.
As for the replenisment, its quite clear
April 29:
B4 : 47 000 liter
C3 : 10 000 liter
April 30
B4 : 50 000 liter
C3 : 13 000 liter
Thats +6000 liters in total, and probalby some were also used up in the meantime.
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No data for B4 on May 1 = no fuel.
A measly 3000l of C3 delivered, which is enough for 5 190 sorties, is a far cry from the 100,000l you claim was delivered in Jan, Feb, March and April of 1945. Must have been the April delivery that finally arrived a month late.
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So why did the LW use oxen to pull aircraft around the ramps?
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
No data for B4 on May 1 = no fuel.
Source?
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Originally posted by Angus
So why did the LW use oxen to pull aircraft around the ramps?
I am not familiar with any LW aircraft mover vehicle that would use aviation grade fuel, Angus...
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Well the one thing I have learn't from all these THEORIES is that Butch seems to have the data to back up any statements he makes.
Kurfy - Be nice if just instead of repacking the same old set of whats ifs, we can assume etc, you actually came up with something NEW.
At least then maybe we can put this whole topic to rest.
You have a workable theory, thats all. No solid proof of any kind.
Where it falls short - using recent fuel shortage in US as a example -
My local gas station had premium (count that as ANR C3), by your theory all others in area should have it also.
They didn't, out of 5 gas stations it was the only one to have premium (C3), but they ALL had regular (B4).
As I said just an example to show the flaw in your logic.
Not saying C3 wasn't available in Germany, just using the recent gas shortages in the US as a parallel.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Source?
Actually there were still 10m3 of B4 on that date :rolleyes:
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I LOVE THIS THREAD! PLEASE DON'T STOP NOW! :lol
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Originally posted by Angus
So why did the LW use oxen to pull aircraft around the ramps?
Because they were lazy.
The manly British ground crews had to push the planes themselves. :D
(http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/content/images/2005_4200.JPG)
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The stocks available to the Kommandierender General der Deutschen Luftwaffe in Italy is for all his units, German and Italian. The Italians had no say in fuel useage.
The month of April 1945, started with 226,000l of B4, 125,000l of C3 and 341,000l of J2 in stock storage. On the April 10 C3 stock was 93 000l and there was a a rare delivery on the 14-15th to bring stock up to 132,000l.
As noted in one of Kurfy's other posts, or was it his K-4 article, the recon version of the G-10 should use C3. There was 8 G-10/R2 in Italy. BMW 801 powered a/c include 4 Fw190As and 11 Ju188s. With 26 BMW 801 engines requiring C3 it can be seen why C3 was sent to the Italian front, if these a/c were ever to fly.
This info came from a thread at 12 O'clock High, one of the 1/2 dozen or so boards he posted his latest revelations on.
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Ju 188A and D used Jumo 213A engines that run on B4, not on C3 Milo.
It`s a bit dubious to use 45% of the whole fuel stock for a mere four 190s, isn`t it?
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Hehe, Otto, nice one :D
They are however turning the aircraft, not towing it.
Turning is rather easy, towing isn't
Turning is also done much easier this way than using the engine.
I bet the LW did this the exact way as well, form the start.
They still do it today, even at Duxford, when one has a squadron or two facing the ramp. The do have enough fuel today I belive :D
Actually, I have a very nice picture of dozens of WW2 fighters on the ramp, took it in 2000. Dump me yer email and I'll send it. That applies to Kuffie as well ;)
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otto@me-262.com :)
Btw. what vehicle did the British/Americans use to tow planes?
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Hope you have a good virus checker Angus. :aok
Yes my mistake Kurfy on the Ju188.
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I have something better than that. lookie:http://www.mailwasher.net
Will mail today Otto,- my image is on another computer.
Duxford 2000, lucky me,- had a press pass.
BTW, fox might have some of my shots on his website.
He's got many really good ones BTW.
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Please send them at here too, Angus. Maybe I`ll send something interesting too. ;)
kurfurst@atw.hu, as always.
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RGR that, have many airshow photos, from my own, so feel free to hand them out.
What you would have liked is the 108 I saw once, but I didn't get a proper shot so no pic :(
But I have seen a Fokker Dr I doing a loopie !!!
You must visit Duxford, it rocks!
Pics some 2 hrs away.
you want some too Milo?
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sure Angus. :) They make good screen savers.
Did you get the cartoon?
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Mailing now, - check mail in 10 minutes or so.
Yep, just got the cartoon. Just started up this computer, - had to delete 250 messages, lol.
Mailwasher rocks :D
Milo, Kuffie, Otto, - you will have 2 pics each in the first message, - I'll browse some of my pics and find more if you like.
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Mails sent, successfully.
Enjoy.
I have Lizzie,Blenheim, B17, P47, Spits & Hurrys, Sopwith, Avro504 and probably some more flying, and lots static.
I saw F8F, F7F, F6F, F4U, Skyraider, Me108, P39 or 63, Yak-3, P40, P51 and perhaps more from WW2 and after (prop+piston engines) in the air that summer. The Spits were the only ones that would play though. The wildest one was a Griffon engined one, - would NOT have liked to have been in that cockpit.
From WWI there were Bristol fighters, Se5's, Sopwith Tripe and a Fokker DRI all flying