Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: bandit752 on September 27, 2005, 09:50:27 AM
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Hello!
I been having trouble with aiming. It seems that I am bearing down and seem to be lined up correctly! when I fire it seems I am over or under shooting!!
What is a good training routine of this problem??
What is the lag??
Thanks
Bandit
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Bandit,
Make sure you have "unloaded" your wings prior to firing. What I mean by that is often times I will swoop down on a planes 6, and still be pulling positives G's at the time Im shooting.
Try to unload the wings earlier so your G meter is reading 1 before firing.
If your pulling G's you will not be ablet to utilize the site as point of aim, point of impact.
Balsy
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Thanks for the reply!
Can you explain unloading the wings!
From what I understand that you cannot have positive G's on the plane when you fire???
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I you are using the site, and putting the crosshairs on the enemy plane, you need to be at 1 "G".
Otherwise you will undershoot him. You certainly CAN fire with more than 1 g but you will have to compensate with the appropriate amount of lead, which will vary by the number of G's your pulling.
Balsy
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Thank you for the tip!
I am trying to look up more on the subject here!
Thanks again!!
bandit!
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Hmmm...never thought of the gs having an effect on firing. Thanks for the tip, balsy, and thanks for the question, bandit.
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The key is that when you're under any type of "G" greater than the normal 1G, you need to lead your shots. Think of it like this... Say you have a garden hose that's turned on full blast and you're holding it straight out. It shoots the water out about 7ft before gravity brings the water toward the ground.
Now lets say you have your pesky kid brother 7ft in front of you and he's just teased you about your tin foil helmet that you wear while playing AH2. What do you do? You simile and scream "Buhahaha!", then point the hose at him and hit him square in the chest :rofl....no aiming left or right, or even up and down.
Let say that after his soaking, he's decided to go and run inside to tell your mom that you vulched him unprovoked and takes off running straight to your left. Do you need to move the nozzle up or down? No...he's still at the 7ft distance. So you keep the nozzle level...but do you aim exactly where he's at? i.e. with the hose nozzle (gun barrel) pointing directly at him? No you don't. Because that as swing your 37mm cannon (yes, thinking of the P-39 ;)) following his defensive move, the water from the hose will curve and hit BEHIND him.
But of course, noticed that and you instinctively aim your water cannon AHEAD of him so that your stream of water and your tattle-tailing runt of a brother meet together in a satisfying burst of wetness:aok
Now lets say that he now decides to engage in a zero-g unloaded dive and start to run away from you. You catch his maneuver and at 12ft away, you fire again. But you miss...your 37mm ammo is hitting the ground near his feet. It's hitting short. But then, things starts to click. You raise the angle of your nozzle a bit, watch the water arc even more and WHAM! You're spraying your sniveling brother smack in his back! Hehe. now you've got him on the run and unless he gets outside the range of your hose, his going to get nailed.
So how does this apply to AH's gunnery? One G, no leading required. But the more G's you pull, the more you need to lead. There may even be a time where you're pulling so many G's to get the right amount of lead, that you could be firing when your target is under your nose....maybe not even seeing it.
So grab your tin foil helmet and hit the training arenas or even go offline and attack the drones from different angles. If it's easier, turn your tracers on and see how they arc as your G's change. Practice, practice, practice:aok
Oh, and this has nothing to do with lag it's all about gunnery;)
EDIT: I just remembered an appropriate quote from one of the aces printed in "the bible", Bob Shaw's "FIGHTER COMBAT: Tactics and Maneuvering". The pilot was quoted as saying something like this "As long as I can see down the barrel of his guns, I am safe". Of course, he's assuming he's pulling G's;)
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:rofl :rofl :rofl Fry thats fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bronk
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LMAO Fry, what a great explanation. I remember those garden hose plays from my teenies very vividly. :aok
Now since im one of those miss-d200-clear-shots-wonders (ie my gunnery is less then mediocre): Does the LCG in TA compensate for Gs pulled? Or does it only take into consideration the two planes speeds, gravity, ballistics and convergence?
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Does the LCG in TA compensate for Gs pulled? Or does it only take into consideration the two planes speeds, gravity, ballistics and convergence?
I've not seen or used this in AH, but back in the days of AW, this DID take into account G's. But given HT's drive for authenticity, I'm betting it does take into account all of the above. Someone with better info should speak up, though;)
Basically, where the pipper was (I think it's an "x" or something else here in AH), is where your bullets would hit...IF and it's a big IF, your target is also at your convergence setting.
So assuming your pulling some G's....
IF your convergence is set to 400yds and
IF your target is at 400yds and
IF the pipper is ON your target,
then your target would be hit.
IF your convergence is set to 400 yds and
IF your target is at 400yds and
IF the pipper is BEHIND your target,
then your bullets would fly BEHIND your target. Likewise,
IF your convergence is set to 400 yds and
IF your target is at 400yds and
IF the pipper is AHEAD of your target
then your bullets would fly AHEAD of your target.
This also is similar if the target was beyond your convergence setting too....
IF your convergence is set to 400yds and
IF your target is at 600yds and
IF your pipper is ON your target,
then your bullets would fly BEHIND your target.
IF your convergence is set to 400yds and
IF your target is at 600yds and
IF your pipper is AHEAD of your target,
then your bullets MAY hit your target depending on how much lead you gave your bullets. In any case, they'd be closer to the target than if than if you fired with the pipper ON the target.
One thing you don't want to get in the habit of is what we've called "flying the pipper". That's flying your plane "reactively" where you fly your plane to put your pipper on your target. I suggest that you user the pipper to get an idea for how leading your target works, then turn it off. Learn to use "Kentucky windage" to aim. After some time, it'll be instinctive. Before AH, I prefered to fly without tracers and a without pipper, so it really took some time to get the aiming down as you had no reference as to where your bullets were flying. But here in AH, I love the look of tracers so I leave them on;) Sure, folks know that I'm there behind them, but it just looks cool, hehe.
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Thanks for that info Fry.
I never really use the LCG, except to (rarely) practice gunnery-eye in TA (its swiched off in the other arenas anyway) and when i started flying the Hurri 1 i switched off tracers (8 bullet streams clutter your screen to no end) and they havent been swiched back on ever since. I have little trouble shooting someone that isnt fighting back (ie not in the heat of the fight) and judging the lead neccessary. But when things get hot and tight, i miss the p38 pulling straight up in front of me d200.
Maybe the Gs pulled are the answer.
In the meantime, dont worry when you have me on your six. Your chances of survival are good ;).
Oh and the LCG in AH2 works different i believe. It puts a cross where you need to aim your gunsight at to hit the target you have selected with 'friendly lock'. That means when the target it out of convergence range you actually get two crosshairs.
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Excellent post Fry
Clearest description of leading the target I have read
:aok
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This site has a pretty good "rule of thumb" on figuring the lead.
Mafia Site (http://nestinghouses.com/mafia/aceshigh/AcesHigh.htm) and click on Air to Air Targeting
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Fry you sure do play with your hose a lot.
DmdMax:rofl
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Yeah. Unfortunately, Mrs. Fry still doesn't want to play as much as I do ;)
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Good Job on the explination Fry and thanks for the link to the Mafia site Fugitive. There is a good example of leading your target there with illustrations.
Uber:aok
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Oh and the LCG in AH2 works different i believe. It puts a cross where you need to aim your gunsight at to hit the target you have selected with 'friendly lock'. That means when the target it out of convergence range you actually get two crosshairs.
Actually you get a crosshair for primary and secondary guns. If you fly a yak9t or a 109g6 with 30mm you'll see that even when in range the second crosshair is usually further out than the other (because the round is freakin' slow as heck). Generally both crosses will meet (be in the same area, or on top of each other) when you're at the range your guns' convergence is set to.
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Nice explanation, Fry.
I believe that the technical reason why you need to be at 1g for your pipper to give you true feedback as to where your bullets will end up is because when you're pulling more (or less) than 1g, your plane's velocity vector is not aligned with your gunsight. Because your plane's velocity is imparted to the bullets when they leave the gun barrel, if it is not aligned with the gun barrel, the bullets will not travel as the gun sight indicates. So, if you're pulling positive gs when you shoot, you've got a positive angle of attack and need to aim "higher" than you would under 1g, because the plane's velocity vector is actually "below" your gunsight. The plane's velocity and the bullet's initial velocity are added together when the bullet leaves the barrel, so that the bullet's resultant velocity is along a vector somewhat "below" the gun line (Even though it appears that the bullets (or water from a hose) "curve," they don't, really. Each bullet leaves the gun barrel and travels at a constant velocity--namely, that imparted by its propellant plus the velocity of the plane--except as affected by after-applied external forces, such as air resistance and gravity. The apparent "curving" is created by a sequence of bullets, each of which leaves the gun barrel with a slightly different velocity vector.). The degree of this "depression" depends on how severe your plane's angle of attack is -- the more g you're pulling, the greater the angle of attack and the more "aim-high" compensation you need to hit your target. This, I suspect, is why many folks chronically fire behind their targets when chasing them in a circular fight. It just doesn't seem like you should need so much lead, but that is the effect of the high angles of attack that typically occur in max-turning circle fights.
The same thing applies, albeit perpendicularly, to firing when your plane is "slipping" (often induced by mashing a rudder pedal) -- your plane's velocity vector is misaligned (in the yaw axis, as opposed to the pitch axis) with its gunsight. This is why you might see some advise shooting "with your feet on the floor." Of course, those who know what they're doing can exploit this to great effect by using the rudder-induced slip to correct for misalignment of the gunsight and target.
LoneStarBuckeye
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Actually it's not G's that matter. Although knowing whether you are pulling G's will help you in your calcuation of how much lead to apply. What the real issue is for calculating lead is the speed of the target, and the angle of the interception between your guns and the target.
For example in Fry's water fight he is not pulling any G's, he's standing still and merely rotating as he fires his hose. This is analagous to being in an Osty or field gun. If his brother is running perpindicular to him, so that Fry has to swivel to lead him, he leads because if he fires now, by the time his water has gone 7 feet his brother has moved from point A to point B, so the water goes behind him. So Fry fires at a point ahead of his brother so that the water and his brother both arrive at Point C at the same time.
The most important factors here are: A) How far away the target is; B) How fast the target is travelling; and C) How long it takes your projectile to cover that distance. Which is why if the target is close, you lead less, far, you lead more. Target is slow, less; Target is far, more. If you have a low velocity projectile, it takes longer to cover the distance, therefore you have to add more lead than a high velocity projectile.
In order for Gs to have an effect, Fry would have to be chasing his brother, not standing still. If Fry chases him around in a circle, then Fry would experience some G's as he makes the ciricle. However the G's would have very little impact on Fry'a aim point, the most important thing is to aim at point C ahead of little brother so that the water and little brother arrive at C at the same time.
When you're in a 6 tail chase, the amount of G's is an important indicator of how much your target is changing course. The more G's, the more deviation from a straight line in front of you, therefore the more lead you apply to make sure your projectiles arrive at C the same tme he does. It's not the G's that are causing your bullets to go behind the target, it's the fact the target has moved from point A to B before they get there.
Want to prove it to yourself? Use the .target command to create a target at various distances. Go into a circle pulling G's and as the target passes by fire at various times. You'll see that even though you are pulling Gs, you don't have to lead the target to hit it, because it's always staying at a fixed point. So its not the G's you pull that determines where your aim needs to be, but whether or not and how fast and far away your target is moving.
Another example is a crossing shot. Your bogie is scissoring in front of you. You go straight and level, unload your wings and are pulling 1 G. If you fire when the bogie is in your site as he crosses, you will fire behind him. You must fire before the bogie crosses so that your bullets and his plane arrive at a point in front of you at the same time. The faster he is going the earlier you have to fire.
A good way to practice is offline against the drones circling the base. Use the Lead Computing Sight to see how much lead you have to apply when attacking at various angles.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
The most important factors here are: A) How far away the target is; B) How fast the target is travelling; and C) How long it takes your projectile to cover that distance. Which is why if the target is close, you lead less, far, you lead more. Target is slow, less; Target is far, more. If you have a low velocity projectile, it takes longer to cover the distance, therefore you have to add more lead than a high velocity projectile.
Aside from the ~1 degree drop from gravity, factor A is irrelevent to lead. The only thing distance changes is your chance to miss on account of your target changing direction before the bullet gets there, or your shot missing for poor aim.